denissnowy wrote: ↑March 22, 2024, 8:48 pm
Good to see him lock down a position.
Savage is our no 1 winger now
Cotric has really regressed
Correct.
Hoppa is also ahead of him and I’d dare say Schiller and Asomua would be too if given a chance, which they should get next time there’s an injury.
Worryingly, I’m not seeing the usual desperation for a guy in a contract year either.
It’s beyond doubt in my mind he isn’t the answer to any questions associated with our first grade squad. If you accept that position, it troubles me a little that he will take up a spot in NSW Cup and block the development of someone who might answer a few questions for us.
I really like Cotric and I’ve been holding onto the hope he’d reclaim pre-Dogs form but it just ain’t happening. Not even proper signs that it could happen. He’s played 35+ games since his return. That’s more than enough time for him to get there.
I think having him play NSW Cup is fine because he becomes a great depth option. But what does that mean for his re-signing? Can’t spend money on a guy who may be the fourth or fifth wing option.
This is where your question about blocking others comes in. Could be a tough year for Nic.
I wasn't too disheartened by that, if I'm honest. Loved the commitment in defense, a few of the try savers were outstanding - led by Savage's, of course, but I thought Strange's grass cutter on Rocco Berry was a ripper as well, particularly in the context of a pretty tough night for the kid. He's played in a couple of hostile environments to start the year and really turned up.
We looked great shifting the ball to the right, Fogarty's progression + Hosking's inclusion + the studliness of Timoko makes for a threatening combination. It's frustrating that we go there so scarcely, but there's potential there for sure.
Billy Walker wrote: ↑March 22, 2024, 8:10 pm
The decline of Cotric as a footballer is only matched by the decline of Maguire as a coach.
Ok here is comes....I rate Hoppa over Cotric
In general, I'm in your camp. Cotric to me is a more sound performer over a longer period of time (vs Hoppa).
However Cotric has declined. Cotric needs to wake up a little and get back to SOO form. He used to bounce of tackles for fun before he went Dogs. Thats gone now from his game.
He may have slowed down, and thats fine. However Cotric is still young and has the best years ahead of him. It's all in his head and within his control if you ask me..
Wiki Special wrote: ↑March 22, 2024, 9:04 pm
I watched delayed and just finished now so haven't read back, but the Tapine try looked a try on every replay to me. Not sure what the consensus is here but I feel that was the wrong decision by the Bunker.
I had no issues with the Strange no try... it went up a no try, he grounded it with his forearm and im not sold he had control... call on the field standing was IMO correct
Tapine was the wrong call, looked clear to me RTS took possession and was cleanly stripped for a try. Big momentum shift. Stuart did well not to bite about it. Interested to see what Annesley has to say on Monday about it, if anything. But to me that was a bad call
I thought they were going to give the benefit of the doubt to the try.
On Strange: Whilst he didn't have control from the possession, to me there was no evidence of separation between his forearm and the ground at time of the ball being grounded. If it went up as a try it would have def been given a try.
Also the Tapine try: I didn't notice Tapine "knock on". Both him and RTS touched the ball simultaneously and Tapine regained it. Play on..
In any event, neither of those were clean break tries, which is what id like to see us do more of going forward.
benda wrote:
Also the Tapine try: I didn't notice Tapine "knock on". Both him and RTS touched the ball simultaneously and Tapine regained it. Play on..
Given they did it one handed on opposite sides of the ball that’s instantly a knock on. Then it’s just down to which one you believe touched it first and I thought Tapine got there a split second earlier.
If it truly were simultaneous then I don’t know what should happen. Ref feeds a scrum?
Billy Walker wrote: ↑March 22, 2024, 8:10 pm
The decline of Cotric as a footballer is only matched by the decline of Maguire as a coach.
Ok here is comes....I rate Hoppa over Cotric
In general, I'm in your camp. Cotric to me is a more sound performer over a longer period of time (vs Hoppa).
However Cotric has declined. Cotric needs to wake up a little and get back to SOO form. He used to bounce of tackles for fun before he went Dogs. Thats gone now from his game.
He may have slowed down, and thats fine. However Cotric is still young and has the best years ahead of him. It's all in his head and within his control if you ask me..
I don’t think it’s in the head, I believe it’s in his body. I think he is trying hard but he’s lost what made him good. I’d love to see the data on his speed, size, strength now versus when he burst onto the scene. He bulked up too much and although he seems to have trimmed the pace and agility haven’t returned. Even the try he scored he looked so slow over the 15 yards to the line.
twistedbydesign wrote: ↑March 23, 2024, 12:18 am
I wasn't too disheartened by that, if I'm honest. Loved the commitment in defense, a few of the try savers were outstanding - led by Savage's, of course, but I thought Strange's grass cutter on Rocco Berry was a ripper as well, particularly in the context of a pretty tough night for the kid. He's played in a couple of hostile environments to start the year and really turned up.
We looked great shifting the ball to the right, Fogarty's progression + Hosking's inclusion + the studliness of Timoko makes for a threatening combination. It's frustrating that we go there so scarcely, but there's potential there for sure.
Agree with that. It was an interesting one. Timoko had his best game against RTS. I'd like to see him get more ball up against lesser opponents to see how silly he could make them look. He's growing each game and it looks like the team is learning how to utilise him.
Billy Walker wrote: ↑March 22, 2024, 8:10 pm
The decline of Cotric as a footballer is only matched by the decline of Maguire as a coach.
Ok here is comes....I rate Hoppa over Cotric
In general, I'm in your camp. Cotric to me is a more sound performer over a longer period of time (vs Hoppa).
However Cotric has declined. Cotric needs to wake up a little and get back to SOO form. He used to bounce of tackles for fun before he went Dogs. Thats gone now from his game.
He may have slowed down, and thats fine. However Cotric is still young and has the best years ahead of him. It's all in his head and within his control if you ask me..
I don’t think it’s in the head, I believe it’s in his body. I think he is trying hard but he’s lost what made him good. I’d love to see the data on his speed, size, strength now versus when he burst onto the scene. He bulked up too much and although he seems to have trimmed the pace and agility haven’t returned. Even the try he scored he looked so slow over the 15 yards to the line.
Rapana is more likely to get an extension than Cotric. He is absolute rubbish IMO. Hoppa offers a lot more upside at a younger age. This year should be the last we see of Cotric in green and probably the NRL. Off to super league for Nick.
Let’s hear about how, in a very tight and physical game, we completely wasted our first interchange by giving Whitehead a ceremonial run around before bringing our most in-form player on??
julian87 wrote: ↑March 23, 2024, 7:10 am
Rubbishing Cotric and praising Hopoate is bizarre. They’re both no good.
I think Hoppa offers very good go forward and defensively he looks to be improving. He's only young in his career so I think he could go up a notch. He isn't a bad 3rd/4th string winger which is what he is in our squad. For what he is I think he is a good option if you look around the NRL and compare.
Rickmando wrote: ↑March 23, 2024, 7:20 am
Let’s hear about how, in a very tight and physical game, we completely wasted our first interchange by giving Whitehead a ceremonial run around before bringing our most in-form player on??
Sure - in a very tight and physical game we completely wasted our first interchange by giving Whitehead a ceremonial run around before bringing our most in-form player on.
julian87 wrote: ↑March 23, 2024, 8:57 am
Honestly think Whitehead is a bigger issue than Croker was. The difference between him and Hosking at edge forward is monumental.
Whitehead is a huge problem but Croker was next level bad for a long time.
Rickmando wrote: ↑March 23, 2024, 7:20 am
Let’s hear about how, in a very tight and physical game, we completely wasted our first interchange by giving Whitehead a ceremonial run around before bringing our most in-form player on??
And then late in the match we doubled down on ceremony and put Smelly back in the middle when the game was on the line taking minutes from Smithies or Papa, both of whom currently offer more in any given situation.
Rickmando wrote: ↑March 23, 2024, 9:07 am
Regardless of the names involved, It’s the second time in less than 12 months that we’ve put sentiment/emotion above winning.
Very amateurish from a supposed professional organisation.
I expect him to be carried for the rest of the season though.
He's turning up and trying his best to defend with energy and smarts. But in attack he's just a free tackle basically.
Rickmando wrote: ↑March 23, 2024, 9:07 am
Regardless of the names involved, It’s the second time in less than 12 months that we’ve put sentiment/emotion above winning.
Very amateurish from a supposed professional organisation.
Do we pride ourselves on being a professional organisation though? I’d argue we put more value on players being “true raiders”. Having links to the past and a need for tradition and history to shape our culture. We acknowledge some things are more important than two competition points. We don’t act like a professional organisation. Whitehead is bad, but there is another backrower on our books consuming a big chunk of space that we will get exactly zero output from because we aren’t professional enough to have a hard conversation any pony up a deal to allow both player and club to move on from a situation that won’t be resolved.
julian87 wrote: ↑March 23, 2024, 8:57 am
Honestly think Whitehead is a bigger issue than Croker was. The difference between him and Hosking at edge forward is monumental.
You see it too huh? Wish our coach could, even though he is blinded by sentiment
-PJ- wrote: ↑March 23, 2024, 9:35 am
Ricky loves his captains.
Campo, Croker and now Whitehead all taking up valuable space.
Tarps will likely be next Captain, and while I’m not questioning his current form, his best days are likely behind him. 2022 was his absolute peak. If he is 2025 captain he will still be a good player but one on the slide not the rise.
The EW issue has been around for about 2 years now. Lets not pretend this is a new issue. Posters have been talking about this for a long time now.
He'll have a game here and there where he winds back the time piece and produces good football and in fairness to him it seems to me, at least anecdotally, that those games often come in important games like finals, ala last years Knights final when he was quite good
But for 2 years now, game to game, regaular season... he has not produced NRL level football.
There is the makings of a pretty good team this year in the squad, not a contender but a competitive unit who with injury luck could sneak a finals spot and give someone a frieght... we're going to be talented enough to beat bad teams but if we want to beat good teams, and a build a team that can beat good teams consistently into 2025-26, we're going to have to stop settling for the 3-4 sub par players and replace them with higher ceiling talent
We have enough floor raising talent in the team, what we are lacking is ceiling raisers.
Botman wrote: ↑March 23, 2024, 9:41 am
The EW issue has been around for about 2 years now. Lets not pretend this is a new issue. Posters have been talking about this for a long time now.
He'll have a game here and there where he winds back the time piece and produces good football and in fairness to him it seems to me, at least anecdotally, that those games often come in important games like finals, ala last years Knights final when he was quite good
But for 2 years now, game to game, regaular season... he has not produced NRL level football.
There is the makings of a pretty good team this year in the squad, not a contender but a competitive unit who with injury luck could sneak a finals spot and give someone a frieght... we're going to be talented enough to beat bad teams but if we want to beat good teams, and a build a team that can beat good teams consistently into 2025-26, we're going to have to stop settling for the 3-4 sub par players and replace them with higher ceiling talent
We have enough floor raising talent in the team, what we are lacking is ceiling raisers.
Very true. There is obvious talent in NSW Cup, with hopefully more on the way. The real challenge is how Ricky correctly introduces them to first grade. As much as I’d love to see Stewart cut loose I think holding him back is likely the correct call. If Sanders arrives early how he is handled will also be interesting. In terms of replacing EW. There is no management or easing in required. The risk is losing players who aren’t given the opportunity ahead of EW.
Rickmando wrote: ↑March 23, 2024, 7:20 am
Let’s hear about how, in a very tight and physical game, we completely wasted our first interchange by giving Whitehead a ceremonial run around before bringing our most in-form player on??
And then late in the match we doubled down on ceremony and put Smelly back in the middle when the game was on the line taking minutes from Smithies or Papa, both of whom currently offer more in any given situation.
Yeah, this is the bit that frustrates me. Using Whitehead like that is the worst of all scenarios and goes against the one big advantage the team has over nearly every other side. Against an on fire AFB and Harris with the game on the line it was ridiculous.
If he has to be there I'd rather Hosking goes to NSW cup and they keep the three middles on the bench. It's going to be less damaging to the team.
Nobody will like it raised, but come mid season replace the name Whitehead with Papa and we are having the same discussions. Papa has been and still is wonderful and it’s not a crack at his past, his character or anything else. Nobody can beat the aging process. JWH is playing great footy and is a chooks legend but he’s off to SuperLeague next year.
Father time will come for Papa and it will be sooner than later, and with him being off contract at the end of this year it is certainly something to consider and monitor going forward... we need to be careful how we handle that contract for sure
It's also worth noting how deep we are at middle forward and the young blokes we have coming through that are in a use it or lose it situation.
But based on his play through the first 3 weeks i think that's a very premature post. Nothing about Papalii's football through three weeks has suggested he's going to be anything close to EW by mid year. EW is absolutely not FG standard... Papa's got a LOOOOONG way to fall to get to that level given through three weeks he's still proving himself to be a pretty high quality middle. (though admittedly not his best game last night)
Botman wrote: ↑March 23, 2024, 10:06 am
Father time will come for Papa and it will be sooner than later, and with him being off contract at the end of this year it is certainly something to consider and monitor going forward... we need to be careful how we handle that contract for sure
It's also worth noting how deep we are at middle forward and the young blokes we have coming through that are in a use it or lose it situation.
But based on his play through the first 3 weeks i think that's a very premature post. Nothing about Papalii's football through three weeks has suggested he's going to be anything close to EW by mid year. EW is absolutely not FG standard... Papa's got a LOOOOONG way to fall to get to that level given through three weeks he's still proving himself to be a pretty high quality middle. (though admittedly not his best game last night)
But also the fact that a genuine impactful middle can be used in short stints, and arguably is a perfect fit for an old head in the middle of the match for 10-15 either side of the break. Sia played it well for instance.
But smelly lacks the mobile defensive dynamics to play edge now compared with other options, and has never had ‘impact’ in the middle. So literally any job we ask of him, there are people better suited to it in the squad. The actual ideal use of his current skill set is to be an 80 minute leader in cup and be a decent first drop replacement should we lose an edge player in first grade.
Last night we took minutes off our best performing backrower, and minutes of our best 13 or 2nd best available prop. And the best review I could possibly give of his minutes was ‘I didn’t really notice him do anything wrong. Limited minutes players should bring impact, and he has never been that style of player, and Father Time isn’t getting him any closer to it.
Papa didn't play to his usual standards but he's still a FG. By comparison, I think he's much better than the Bromwich brothers, Christian Welch and JWH. He would get into top 4 sides like Melbourne Storm, even Broncos. And on the bench for Warriors and Penrith. From what I've seen last year and this year, I'd be open to extending him on a short deal.
We saw the 2021 posts when Whitehead extended. Nearly everyone were in agreement that he did not deserve a 2 year extension for his deal that ran out in 2022. It was unusual that they extended him there and then, given he had one more year to run and his 2021 form. We saw last night from a naked eye test how slow he was compared to others. He's played a lot of games and NRL is too fast for him. NRL is completely different to international football.
Hosking can poke his nose through the line, better in the air (we at least have an aerial threat), better defender and now better player. He contributes.
Michael Lombardi often quotes Bill Walsh about the nature of sports and team building when he says “sometimes you're 2-3 injuries away from being a good team”
And I can’t help but think that rings true for our side.
benda wrote:
Also the Tapine try: I didn't notice Tapine "knock on". Both him and RTS touched the ball simultaneously and Tapine regained it. Play on..
Given they did it one handed on opposite sides of the ball that’s instantly a knock on. Then it’s just down to which one you believe touched it first and I thought Tapine got there a split second earlier.
If it truly were simultaneous then I don’t know what should happen. Ref feeds a scrum?
I think the one hand on the ball is a subjective call. If RTS wasn't involved Tapine would have retained possession regardless. To what degree Tapine had the control of that ball with one hand is questionable. I would have given any benefit of the doubt to the attacking side in this instance.
I was big on Nic Cotric and had him pencilled in a wing spot for 2024 but he needs to go. He is too slow to be a winger. I am not marking him down for the dropped ball but his lack of pace, athleticism and involvement means he's no longer a walk up start to FG. We saw the decline in Josh Mansour. It can be quick.
Hong Kong Raider wrote: ↑March 23, 2024, 10:34 am
Hosking can poke his nose through the line, better in the air (we at least have an aerial threat), better defender and now better player. He contributes.
Hosking is currently proving to provide more in attack than Young. Im pleased we signed him and hopefully we dont muck him around with the bench. He is a 80m player.. lets judt give him the jersey and move forward.
