POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

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In which position should Xavier Savage start in 2024?

Fullback
38
58%
Winger
28
42%
 
Total votes: 66

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gangrenous
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by gangrenous »

I’m a weird hybrid of Botman and Bluesbrother here.

I give Ricky credit for effectively doing his job to win the premiership in 2019. By Botman’s 10 years grace for a premiership, I think it’s a little arbitrary to not grant it based on that outcome.

But for me I don’t believe in 10 years grace, and I want to see the team play to its full potential. To me the team has been falling further and further behind the pack tactically each year since 2019.

I agree with the forest for the trees comment. I don’t doubt that there are some decisions where the coaching staff are like “wish the fans would shut up about blah. If they only knew blah has this or that problem which makes it a non-starter”. But I struggle to see how things like the steady dating of overall team tactics, or the evidence that suggests the team don’t train for scenarios like field goals, are addressed by “trust us we know better”.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Matt »

gangrenous wrote: January 30, 2024, 8:51 am I’m a weird hybrid of Botman and Bluesbrother here.

I give Ricky credit for effectively doing his job to win the premiership in 2019. By Botman’s 10 years grace for a premiership, I think it’s a little arbitrary to not grant it based on that outcome.

But for me I don’t believe in 10 years grace, and I want to see the team play to its full potential. To me the team has been falling further and further behind the pack tactically each year since 2019.

I agree with the forest for the trees comment. I don’t doubt that there are some decisions where the coaching staff are like “wish the fans would shut up about blah. If they only knew blah has this or that problem which makes it a non-starter”. But I struggle to see how things like the steady dating of overall team tactics, or the evidence that suggests the team don’t train for scenarios like field goals, are addressed by “trust us we know better”.
I'll have what he's having 🤣

You earn grace they same way your earn your spot I'm the 17, performance.

ALL professions have professional development, and most change processes over time. You adapt, or you get moved on/passed by.

PS. Ricky feels like the anti-Dan "fighting" Campbells
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Botman »

gangrenous wrote: January 30, 2024, 8:51 am I give Ricky credit for effectively doing his job to win the premiership in 2019. By Botman’s 10 years grace for a premiership, I think it’s a little arbitrary to not grant it based on that outcome.
Arbitrary? It's not based on random choice or whim. It's very black and white - You get a grace period where fans should probably shut up for a while about sacking the coach if you've won a premiership. Have you won a premiership - yes or no?
Harsh? Maybe.
Arbitrary? Absolutely not :lol:

And btw Stuart got a grace period for making it! He got 2-3 years where there wasn't many fans calling for his job. Most of us were happy with him as coach in 2020-22.
And FWIW i never said there was a 10 year grace period. I said he's had 10 years to get the job done and hasn't. I suggested if he won a single premiership, a fan base so starved of success as ours would probably be fine with a life time contract (which was admittedly hyperbole). Point is the bar is low for Stuart, and he's not clearing it and he's doesnt have the pelts on the wall to warrant an endless leash
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by BJ »

Finchy wrote:
Bluesbrother wrote: It's fine to say it's thier job to rectify issues, I agree with that. But the issues also need to be in the sphere on influence for the coaches and club in order for them to be fixed.
How do you explain the CNK example I cited earlier? His ability to ball-play at the line was non existent. Whenever we tried an attacking backline move, the ball died with him. 4 or so years, no improvement. And his confidence under the high ball got worse and worse to the point he would lie down or sit on the ground to catch it, too scared to jump for it without making an error.

As soon as he goes to the Warriors under a rookie coach he can do both things with confidence. Why could the Warriors coaching staff get the best out of him, yet he only got worse under us? Clearly the issue was able to be rectified with coaching.
Good point Finchy. I can place a portion of CNK’s ball playing improvement to Shaun Johnson creating more time and space for his fullback than Wighton or Fog did and to Charnze being in a better mental and physical headspace.

But the Warriors coach definitely had CNK running a better line one more in than the raiders line and that really helped.

Some of our attack outside the forwards isn’t matching modern day techniques and structures
Coastalraider
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Coastalraider »

There seems to be a really old school expectation that players will either figure it out because they are ‘men’ or they won’t. The whole ‘learning their trade’ thing grinds me - in modern sports it’s not up to a player to go to cup and learnt it themselves, it’s up to coaching staff to teach it.

I follow a lot of sports - the soccer team I follow recently had an overhaul with the grand final winning coach and half the squad getting poached overseas and a new roster and coach bought in fairly late. Lost 4 games on the trot and were basically last.

After a 2 week break between matches where the coach could actually teach his style and people roles they have gone on a 12 game unbeaten run. He continually makes comments such as ‘it’s up to me to get the players to understand the style I want them to play’ ‘we have multiple structures depending on the context of the game, who’s in possession and where’ ‘I’ve identified some issues in player xx and how that fits with our style and we are working in developing them’ etc.

It’s coaching… complex structures, High levels of education and many people playing roles in the system to form a whole.

I just see nothing like this with the raiders at the moment. The last time we looked like we were trying to achieve something via a premeditated plan was when Ennis and Hodgo were working together. Outside of that it seems to be a case of bash ball and hope some natural talent can score points.
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Botman
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Botman »

100%
I say it all the time. The coaches get paid too! If we could just flog blokes and expect them to figure it out skill and structure wise, why pay Stuart 1m a year?
Just get a boot camp instructor in for 70k a year and save the money.

Coaching is a teaching role. It’s the coach and his staff’s job to teach the players, communicate and educate them on what is required of them. Help them hone their craft and grow as footballers.

CNK is a great touching point for this. He was a ball stopper with us. Had no ability or confidence to pass the football in structure. And it crippled our attack.

The NZ warriors got more out of him in this department in one off season than we got in 4 years! He didn’t just wake up one morning and decide “oh ****, now I’m a warrior, maybe I will pass the ball!”

They’ve got him fluently working into space, drawing and passing, quick hands, even the odd cut out ball.
What he did for the warriors this year was maybe the largest indictment on this coaching staff as anything. That coaching staff was able to unlocked his full potential in one off season.

Stuart and his staff had 4 years to do that and couldn’t.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Bluesbrother »

Finchy wrote: January 29, 2024, 10:54 pm
Bluesbrother wrote: January 29, 2024, 6:01 pm The same can be said for Cleary now or Cameron Smith before him. They decide games, not because of the coaching they receive, but because of their own actions.
See, this I disagree with. Yes Nathan Cleary (and Stephen Crichton to a large extent) won the GF off the back of some individual brilliance, however they still played within their coached structures.

Ivan even said in the presser that he was pleased that they didn’t go outside of their structures and start throwing the ball around and doing high risk plays, even when down by 3 tries.

There was no panic, not trying to spread it early and score from inside their own 20 metre line, no chip and chase, or Hail Mary bombs.

Even players with the freakish talents of Nathan Cleary and Stephen Crichton managed to still play within their coached structure, and managed to win the game off the back of it.
I understand what you're saying but without thier ability and thier own decision making they wouldn't of won that game. If it was Jamal Fogarty out there instead of Nathan, the Broncos are 2023 premiers.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Bluesbrother »

Coastalraider wrote: January 30, 2024, 2:50 pm There seems to be a really old school expectation that players will either figure it out because they are ‘men’ or they won’t. The whole ‘learning their trade’ thing grinds me - in modern sports it’s not up to a player to go to cup and learnt it themselves, it’s up to coaching staff to teach it.

I follow a lot of sports - the soccer team I follow recently had an overhaul with the grand final winning coach and half the squad getting poached overseas and a new roster and coach bought in fairly late. Lost 4 games on the trot and were basically last.

After a 2 week break between matches where the coach could actually teach his style and people roles they have gone on a 12 game unbeaten run. He continually makes comments such as ‘it’s up to me to get the players to understand the style I want them to play’ ‘we have multiple structures depending on the context of the game, who’s in possession and where’ ‘I’ve identified some issues in player xx and how that fits with our style and we are working in developing them’ etc.

It’s coaching… complex structures, High levels of education and many people playing roles in the system to form a whole.

I just see nothing like this with the raiders at the moment. The last time we looked like we were trying to achieve something via a premeditated plan was when Ennis and Hodgo were working together. Outside of that it seems to be a case of bash ball and hope some natural talent can score points.
So anyone who gets in a NSW cup side or NRL roster should be able to go out and win a premiership with the right 'coaching and structures' ? That's laughable. You sound like the type of parent who would blame the teacher for your kid sucks at Math.

Whilst I acknowledge the coach can and does have a huge impact. You can't turn **** into gold. This discussion started on the back of our 2019 GF loss. You can't blame the coaches for that loss. Yet, Botman says he would give Ricky a contract for life if they won a premiership. So despite that loss not coming down to coaching, rather player and match officials errors, there is no reprieve from the 'everything sucks and it's all Ricky's fault mentality'
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Bluesbrother »

Botman wrote: January 30, 2024, 3:29 pm 100%
I say it all the time. The coaches get paid too! If we could just flog blokes and expect them to figure it out skill and structure wise, why pay Stuart 1m a year?
Just get a boot camp instructor in for 70k a year and save the money.

Coaching is a teaching role. It’s the coach and his staff’s job to teach the players, communicate and educate them on what is required of them. Help them hone their craft and grow as footballers.

CNK is a great touching point for this. He was a ball stopper with us. Had no ability or confidence to pass the football in structure. And it crippled our attack.

The NZ warriors got more out of him in this department in one off season than we got in 4 years! He didn’t just wake up one morning and decide “oh ****, now I’m a warrior, maybe I will pass the ball!”

They’ve got him fluently working into space, drawing and passing, quick hands, even the odd cut out ball.
What he did for the warriors this year was maybe the largest indictment on this coaching staff as anything. That coaching staff was able to unlocked his full potential in one off season.

Stuart and his staff had 4 years to do that and couldn’t.
CNK was a NSW cup centre before he joined us at 22/23 years of age. The Raiders gave him an opportunity and he turned into an elite fullback within 12 months. Whilst I agree he has improved again since returning to the Warriors, he was a nobody stuck in reserve grade before he joined us.
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-TW-
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by -TW- »

He played 9 games at centre in NSW cup

He was primarily a winger
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gangrenous
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by gangrenous »

Botman wrote:
gangrenous wrote: January 30, 2024, 8:51 am I give Ricky credit for effectively doing his job to win the premiership in 2019. By Botman’s 10 years grace for a premiership, I think it’s a little arbitrary to not grant it based on that outcome.
Arbitrary? It's not based on random choice or whim. It's very black and white - You get a grace period where fans should probably shut up for a while about sacking the coach if you've won a premiership. Have you won a premiership - yes or no?
Harsh? Maybe.
Arbitrary? Absolutely not :lol:

And btw Stuart got a grace period for making it! He got 2-3 years where there wasn't many fans calling for his job. Most of us were happy with him as coach in 2020-22.
And FWIW i never said there was a 10 year grace period. I said he's had 10 years to get the job done and hasn't. I suggested if he won a single premiership, a fan base so starved of success as ours would probably be fine with a life time contract (which was admittedly hyperbole). Point is the bar is low for Stuart, and he's not clearing it and he's doesnt have the pelts on the wall to warrant an endless leash
Arbitrary in the sense that your decision point was demonstrably from random factors outside of what you’re assessing (coach performance). Not arbitrary in the sense of the definition you chose which as you say is black and white.

So glad you corrected the error on the 10 years when you actually said lifetime which makes it worse. Critical we cleared that up Image
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Coastalraider »

Bluesbrother wrote: January 30, 2024, 3:42 pm
Coastalraider wrote: January 30, 2024, 2:50 pm There seems to be a really old school expectation that players will either figure it out because they are ‘men’ or they won’t. The whole ‘learning their trade’ thing grinds me - in modern sports it’s not up to a player to go to cup and learnt it themselves, it’s up to coaching staff to teach it.

I follow a lot of sports - the soccer team I follow recently had an overhaul with the grand final winning coach and half the squad getting poached overseas and a new roster and coach bought in fairly late. Lost 4 games on the trot and were basically last.

After a 2 week break between matches where the coach could actually teach his style and people roles they have gone on a 12 game unbeaten run. He continually makes comments such as ‘it’s up to me to get the players to understand the style I want them to play’ ‘we have multiple structures depending on the context of the game, who’s in possession and where’ ‘I’ve identified some issues in player xx and how that fits with our style and we are working in developing them’ etc.

It’s coaching… complex structures, High levels of education and many people playing roles in the system to form a whole.

I just see nothing like this with the raiders at the moment. The last time we looked like we were trying to achieve something via a premeditated plan was when Ennis and Hodgo were working together. Outside of that it seems to be a case of bash ball and hope some natural talent can score points.
So anyone who gets in a NSW cup side or NRL roster should be able to go out and win a premiership with the right 'coaching and structures' ? That's laughable. You sound like the type of parent who would blame the teacher for your kid sucks at Math.

Whilst I acknowledge the coach can and does have a huge impact. You can't turn **** into gold. This discussion started on the back of our 2019 GF loss. You can't blame the coaches for that loss. Yet, Botman says he would give Ricky a contract for life if they won a premiership. So despite that loss not coming down to coaching, rather player and match officials errors, there is no reprieve from the 'everything sucks and it's all Ricky's fault mentality'
Point out 3 structured set plays from the raiders in 2023.
Bluesbrother
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Bluesbrother »

Coastalraider wrote: January 30, 2024, 5:14 pm
Bluesbrother wrote: January 30, 2024, 3:42 pm
Coastalraider wrote: January 30, 2024, 2:50 pm There seems to be a really old school expectation that players will either figure it out because they are ‘men’ or they won’t. The whole ‘learning their trade’ thing grinds me - in modern sports it’s not up to a player to go to cup and learnt it themselves, it’s up to coaching staff to teach it.

I follow a lot of sports - the soccer team I follow recently had an overhaul with the grand final winning coach and half the squad getting poached overseas and a new roster and coach bought in fairly late. Lost 4 games on the trot and were basically last.

After a 2 week break between matches where the coach could actually teach his style and people roles they have gone on a 12 game unbeaten run. He continually makes comments such as ‘it’s up to me to get the players to understand the style I want them to play’ ‘we have multiple structures depending on the context of the game, who’s in possession and where’ ‘I’ve identified some issues in player xx and how that fits with our style and we are working in developing them’ etc.

It’s coaching… complex structures, High levels of education and many people playing roles in the system to form a whole.

I just see nothing like this with the raiders at the moment. The last time we looked like we were trying to achieve something via a premeditated plan was when Ennis and Hodgo were working together. Outside of that it seems to be a case of bash ball and hope some natural talent can score points.
So anyone who gets in a NSW cup side or NRL roster should be able to go out and win a premiership with the right 'coaching and structures' ? That's laughable. You sound like the type of parent who would blame the teacher for your kid sucks at Math.

Whilst I acknowledge the coach can and does have a huge impact. You can't turn **** into gold. This discussion started on the back of our 2019 GF loss. You can't blame the coaches for that loss. Yet, Botman says he would give Ricky a contract for life if they won a premiership. So despite that loss not coming down to coaching, rather player and match officials errors, there is no reprieve from the 'everything sucks and it's all Ricky's fault mentality'
Point out 3 structured set plays from the raiders in 2023.
I'm not defending the rubbish attack we dished up in 2023. That's not what this conversation is about.
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Finchy
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Finchy »

Bluesbrother wrote: January 30, 2024, 3:42 pm That's laughable. You sound like the type of parent who would blame the teacher for your kid sucks at Math.
I realise this wasn't directed at me, but isn't that the teacher's job? To teach the kid how to do maths? Most parents aren't experts in any given subject, which is why kids are sent to school to learn and not just kept at home.

With some intensive tutoring (ie: teaching) and barring some sort of brain/learning issue, I'd say any kid could be good at maths if taught properly.
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Post by Botman »

Yeah spot on.
When my kids get maths homework to complete, the teacher doesnt just send kids home with a worksheet and tell them complete it. No work hard and bleed green in their classroom.
And it's not me who comes up with the techniques and strategies my children use to tackle the problems. They're given work, the teacher teaches them different methods and strategies they can use to solve it and then if they're struggling to pick up the concepts, they get some homework and the teacher contacts us a parents to explain the issues and what strategies they need extra help on so we can continue that work. Let me promise you this, it's not me figuring out my own way to teach it. No child deserves that! :lol:

And you dont blame the teacher if your kid sucks at Maths. But i'd certainly question the teacher's methods if they've identifed an issue with my childs abilities in maths and were unable to help my child improve. That's the job, to teach, and improve. And sometimes thats the child... but if none of the kids in the class are reaching their full potential? If all of them are struggling? We might want to have a discussion about the teacher.
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gangrenous
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POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by gangrenous »

Let’s push the analogy to breaking point

The kids keep taking abacuses (abacii?) to math competitions and their teachers are clearly working very hard to make them passable on their abacus. The teachers select the kids who go in competitions based on those who can best utilise the abacus.

It’s pretty clear they’re not being shown/developing calculator skills, and each year it’s a kid with a calculator winning the competition.

Meanwhile a couple of the kids down the back of the class have written 8008132 on the calculator which the audience loves and shows they have some calculator skills. Yet these kids are no good at the abacus, so don’t get to go in the competition and see if they could have calculator skills built to success.
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Post by Rickmando »

gangrenous wrote: January 30, 2024, 6:52 pm Let’s push the analogy to breaking point Image

The kids keep taking abacuses (abacii?) to math competitions and their teachers are clearly working very hard to make them passable on their abacus. The teachers select the kids who go in competitions based on those who can best utilise the abacus.

It’s pretty clear they’re not being shown/developing calculator skills, and each year it’s a kid with a calculator winning the competition.

Meanwhile a couple of the kids down the back of the class have written 8008132 on the calculator which the audience loves and shows they have some calculator skills. Yet these kids are no good at the abacus, so don’t get to go in the competition and see if they could have calculator skills built to success.
“But they used abacus’s in the 80’s, and that was real maths. And I know about real maths because I look at maths problems harder than anyone else”
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Bluesbrother »

Finchy wrote: January 30, 2024, 5:55 pm
Bluesbrother wrote: January 30, 2024, 3:42 pm That's laughable. You sound like the type of parent who would blame the teacher for your kid sucks at Math.
I realise this wasn't directed at me, but isn't that the teacher's job? To teach the kid how to do maths? Most parents aren't experts in any given subject, which is why kids are sent to school to learn and not just kept at home.

With some intensive tutoring (ie: teaching) and barring some sort of brain/learning issue, I'd say any kid could be good at maths if taught properly.
We're not talking about basics here. We're talking about the elite level. The comparison would be more like a physics course. People like Issac Newton and Albert Einstein lifted above others in the field because of their abilities, not due to teaching. Most people in a physics course know basic Math but not many have the ability of Newton or Einstein.

I'm not here to debate Nature vs Nurture. We're talking about rugby league. My point is that you can't turn a Volkswagen into a Mercedes. I've said it time and again and you can't turn Jamal Fogarty into Nathan Cleary.

In terms of identifying issues in our team and why we aren't winning, we need not look any further than our roster in comparison to the teams that have won in the last 10 years. If someone can name a team that had a lesser roster than us that won a competition I'll rest my case. Until then, my point is, we punch above what is expected of us and have done so for some time now. As I said, we've been a top 5 team in the NRL over the last 5 seasons. It's a good achievement for a minnow club like ours.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Bluesbrother »

gangrenous wrote: January 30, 2024, 6:52 pm Let’s push the analogy to breaking point Image

The kids keep taking abacuses (abacii?) to math competitions and their teachers are clearly working very hard to make them passable on their abacus. The teachers select the kids who go in competitions based on those who can best utilise the abacus.

It’s pretty clear they’re not being shown/developing calculator skills, and each year it’s a kid with a calculator winning the competition.

Meanwhile a couple of the kids down the back of the class have written 8008132 on the calculator which the audience loves and shows they have some calculator skills. Yet these kids are no good at the abacus, so don’t get to go in the competition and see if they could have calculator skills built to success.
Are you honestly suggesting the difference between the Raiders and the Panthers is coaching? All we need to do is give someone a calculator (Ivan Cleary) and that solves all their problems? What happened at the Tigers?
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Post by Botman »

Stuart feels like to me the old school 60 year veteran teacher, who is stuck in his ways.
Gruff and working off a text book 20 years ago because that worked for him. And if it was good enough for him, it's good enough for kids these days
And we've all had these types... the sort of teacher who has a "i'm only gonna say this once, so pay attention" type. And if you get left behind, that's on you. We're not holding your hand through this. Some people thrive on that, others, it just doesnt work. If you step out of line, we just ask you to leave the class, not interested in trying to find a way to connect to you in a different way. His way or the highway.

He's got his method and his kids always get a passing grade, but it's really only the special kids, who are self motivated, and who have an intrinsic gift for the subject that achieve above and beyond. The 'A' kids will get their 'A' as they always do... And so on on down the line... the 'B' kids will always get the B, and he'll never allow them to get the C, but also, he's not going to elevate them to the A. They have to elevate themselves to that. It's on them, not him.

The best coaches and teachers adjust their approach to the person. Because they understand people respond to different things. It requires a lot of emotional intelligence. This one way only ****... i dont think that plays very well in 2024 with athletes these days. I have grave concerns for how he's going to handle talents like Stewart/Strange/Sanders. If he blows it with these guys... jesus.
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gangrenous
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by gangrenous »

Bluesbrother wrote:
gangrenous wrote: January 30, 2024, 6:52 pm Let’s push the analogy to breaking point Image

The kids keep taking abacuses (abacii?) to math competitions and their teachers are clearly working very hard to make them passable on their abacus. The teachers select the kids who go in competitions based on those who can best utilise the abacus.

It’s pretty clear they’re not being shown/developing calculator skills, and each year it’s a kid with a calculator winning the competition.

Meanwhile a couple of the kids down the back of the class have written 8008132 on the calculator which the audience loves and shows they have some calculator skills. Yet these kids are no good at the abacus, so don’t get to go in the competition and see if they could have calculator skills built to success.
Are you honestly suggesting the difference between the Raiders and the Panthers is coaching? All we need to do is give someone a calculator (Ivan Cleary) and that solves all their problems? What happened at the Tigers?
What I’m saying is I think the Panthers team in the Raiders structure/game plan do not win the competition.

Your final output is a combination of factors ability, application, strategy, luck.

You keep pointing at our deficiency in the first as a reason to not optimise any other controllable factors. Also ignore how they feed into each other as your successes and strengths attract players, and how your current abilities are perceived.
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Botman
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Post by Botman »

Would the Raiders team win a comp with the Panthers coaching staff? No. They'd be better. But no.
Would Stuart win a comp, let alone 3 in a row with the Panthers sqaud? Also no. They'd still be good. But no.
Bluesbrother
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Bluesbrother »

gangrenous wrote: January 30, 2024, 7:52 pm
Bluesbrother wrote:
gangrenous wrote: January 30, 2024, 6:52 pm Let’s push the analogy to breaking point Image

The kids keep taking abacuses (abacii?) to math competitions and their teachers are clearly working very hard to make them passable on their abacus. The teachers select the kids who go in competitions based on those who can best utilise the abacus.

It’s pretty clear they’re not being shown/developing calculator skills, and each year it’s a kid with a calculator winning the competition.

Meanwhile a couple of the kids down the back of the class have written 8008132 on the calculator which the audience loves and shows they have some calculator skills. Yet these kids are no good at the abacus, so don’t get to go in the competition and see if they could have calculator skills built to success.
Are you honestly suggesting the difference between the Raiders and the Panthers is coaching? All we need to do is give someone a calculator (Ivan Cleary) and that solves all their problems? What happened at the Tigers?
What I’m saying is I think the Panthers team in the Raiders structure/game plan do not win the competition.

Your final output is a combination of factors ability, application, strategy, luck.

You keep pointing at our deficiency in the first as a reason to not optimise any other controllable factors. Also ignore how they feed into each other as your successes and strengths attract players, and how your current abilities are perceived.
IMO we have got above average results from average players. This says to me that factors 2, 3, 4 in your explanation above are better than most on the GH care to think.
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gangrenous
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by gangrenous »

Fans aren’t impressed at slight overachievement without legitimate hope of a competition when there are glaring issues slapping them in the face each week. We’re clearly not maxing out 2/3/4 in a way that optimises chance of premiership.

I will give you that last year we got all the luck to finish where we did with the dismal approach. The for and against shows that.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Bluesbrother »

Botman wrote: January 30, 2024, 7:41 pm Stuart feels like to me the old school 60 year veteran teacher, who is stuck in his ways.
Gruff and working off a text book 20 years ago because that worked for him. And if it was good enough for him, it's good enough for kids these days
And we've all had these types... the sort of teacher who has a "i'm only gonna say this once, so pay attention" type. And if you get left behind, that's on you. We're not holding your hand through this. Some people thrive on that, others, it just doesnt work. If you step out of line, we just ask you to leave the class, not interested in trying to find a way to connect to you in a different way. His way or the highway.

He's got his method and his kids always get a passing grade, but it's really only the special kids, who are self motivated, and who have an intrinsic gift for the subject that achieve above and beyond. The 'A' kids will get their 'A' as they always do... And so on on down the line... the 'B' kids will always get the B, and he'll never allow them to get the C, but also, he's not going to elevate them to the A. They have to elevate themselves to that. It's on them, not him.

The best coaches and teachers adjust their approach to the person. Because they understand people respond to different things. It requires a lot of emotional intelligence. This one way only ****... i dont think that plays very well in 2024 with athletes these days. I have grave concerns for how he's going to handle talents like Stewart/Strange/Sanders. If he blows it with these guys... jesus.
I'm not sure how you get that out of the 10 years he has had here. Players have come here and become better players. You mentioned CNK earlier, CNK came here a D grader and left a B I'd have thought. Most players that come to the Raiders now get better and/or play thier best football here. We've also developed some impressive players in recent years, which takes a lot of time to bear fruit. Matt Timoko is a good example, my estimate is that he's been at the club over 5 years, now we are seeing the fruit.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Finchy »

Bluesbrother wrote: January 30, 2024, 7:24 pm I've said it time and again and you can't turn Jamal Fogarty into Nathan Cleary.
True. But Ivan managed to turn Nathan Cleary into Nathan Cleary. Perhaps he needed to have Fogs from birth
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Bluesbrother
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Bluesbrother »

gangrenous wrote: January 30, 2024, 8:01 pm Fans aren’t impressed at slight overachievement without legitimate hope of a competition when there are glaring issues slapping them in the face each week. We’re clearly not maxing out 2/3/4 in a way that optimises chance of premiership.

I will give you that last year we got all the luck to finish where we did with the dismal approach. The for and against shows that.
I'm not saying it's perfect.

What I stand by though is having factor 1 makes factors 2, 3, 4 a hell of a lot easier. Factor 1 is the most important factor and we don't have it. I can see we are working towards it, but we're nowhere near it right now.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Botman »

CNK hit his head on a ceiling here with a B, and within one off season another, better coaching staff got him to an A.
Timoko is extremely gifted, he's a A-B talent and he's performing as such, we're not doing anything to elevate him. In fact we're just rolling back the ol BJ game play... chuck it to the really physically gifted footballer and hope he makes something happen and guess what? The extremely physically gifted football often does that! Beacuse he's extremely gifted. But we are not doing ANYTHING... NOTHING... to put him positions to elevate. It's U10's ****... give it to your best player and hope he does something,

You're not watching or understanding football if you these are good examples to make your point. They're the examples that prove mine.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Finchy »

Bluesbrother wrote: January 30, 2024, 8:04 pm Players have come here and become better players. You mentioned CNK earlier, CNK came here a D grader and left a B I'd have thought. Most players that come to the Raiders now get better and/or play thier best football here.
See, this isn’t actually true. CNK was actually a gun, and scored 7 tries in his first 7 games at the Warriors. Only problem was he was stuck behind the world’s best fullback at the time being RTS.

We needed a fullback and McFadden knew he was a talented kid who just needed a chance from his time coaching in NZ. CNK took that chance and dominated his first season with us. Not because we developed him. He then regressed each year after, much like Blake Austin. And a few others we’ve had.

Our coaching structure seemingly destroyed what individual brilliance they had, amongst other factors
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Bluesbrother »

Botman wrote: January 30, 2024, 8:11 pm CNK hit his head on a ceiling here with a B, and within one off season another, better coaching staff got him to an A.
Timoko is extremely gifted, he's a A-B talent and he's performing as such, we're not doing anything to elevate him. In fact we're just rolling back the ol BJ game play... chuck it to the really physically gifted footballer and hope he makes something happen and guess what? The extremely physically gifted football often does that! Beacuse he's extremely gifted. But we are not doing ANYTHING... NOTHING... to put him positions to elevate. It's U10's ****... give it to your best player and hope he does something,

You're not watching or understanding football if you these are good examples to make your point. They're the examples that prove mine.
Your point is swiss cheese. You say that the reason Panthers win premierships is because of the coaching and structures but in the same breath you say that the reason for an improvement in CNKs performances when he joined the Raiders and Timoko's continued development is just 'natural ability'. Your unwillingness to give our club and the coaching staff any credit is the definition of cynical, one-eyed and pigheaded.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Coastalraider »

A real test of this CNK comparison is what happens with Jack this year. He was Sticks prodigy for a decade and I have the feeling he’s going to be a revelation with an actual structure at south’s. He always was at rep level and they only had camps to work in styles.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Bluesbrother »

:x
Finchy wrote: January 30, 2024, 8:16 pm
Bluesbrother wrote: January 30, 2024, 8:04 pm Players have come here and become better players. You mentioned CNK earlier, CNK came here a D grader and left a B I'd have thought. Most players that come to the Raiders now get better and/or play thier best football here.
See, this isn’t actually true. CNK was actually a gun, and scored 7 tries in his first 7 games at the Warriors. Only problem was he was stuck behind the world’s best fullback at the time being RTS.

We needed a fullback and McFadden knew he was a talented kid who just needed a chance from his time coaching in NZ. CNK took that chance and dominated his first season with us. Not because we developed him. He then regressed each year after, much like Blake Austin. And a few others we’ve had.

Our coaching structure seemingly destroyed what individual brilliance they had, amongst other factors
So the same structures that allowed them opportunity to show thier ability and perform better than they ever had simultaneously eroded thier ability. Makes sense.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by RedRaider »

When Sticky transferred to the Bulldogs he learned that tough forward play can take a side a long way. He has never lost that, but the game has changed. Bellamy has reinvented his playing style a number of times. The style proved to be successful at the Roosters with a champion in Brad Fittler to provide variation. He continued with the style after Fittler left and it was not as successful. Same at Cronulla. Same style and the side was competitive but not a Champion side. At Parramatta - he used the overhead projector. Footy style was the same. He comes to Canberra. Still no change. After years of experimenting some inclusions for 2019 with CNK and Bateman and the side is very competitive. CNK gets injured and Bateman proves to be more interested in the mirror than the team. The style does not change after they go. Raiders somewhat competitive but not a real threat. Coaches are teachers, but he is teaching them to shoe a horse in a motorised world. Needs more speed over the ground and particularly between the ears.

Bring in Xav to at least show something was learned from the NRL competition in 2023.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Finchy »

Bluesbrother wrote: January 30, 2024, 8:22 pm :x
Finchy wrote: January 30, 2024, 8:16 pm
Bluesbrother wrote: January 30, 2024, 8:04 pm Players have come here and become better players. You mentioned CNK earlier, CNK came here a D grader and left a B I'd have thought. Most players that come to the Raiders now get better and/or play thier best football here.
See, this isn’t actually true. CNK was actually a gun, and scored 7 tries in his first 7 games at the Warriors. Only problem was he was stuck behind the world’s best fullback at the time being RTS.

We needed a fullback and McFadden knew he was a talented kid who just needed a chance from his time coaching in NZ. CNK took that chance and dominated his first season with us. Not because we developed him. He then regressed each year after, much like Blake Austin. And a few others we’ve had.

Our coaching structure seemingly destroyed what individual brilliance they had, amongst other factors
So the same structures that allowed them opportunity to show thier ability and perform better than they ever had simultaneously eroded thier ability. Makes sense.
No, they’re guns when the come here for their first season, then they slowly decline.

Cant give heaps of credit to coaching when they arrive as guns and leave as reserve graders or ESL players.

Furthermore - even if it's was our "structures that allowed them opportunity to show their ability and perform better than they ever had", I want to know why it can't be maintained beyond such a short initial period.
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gangrenous
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by gangrenous »

Bluesbrother wrote:
gangrenous wrote: January 30, 2024, 8:01 pm Fans aren’t impressed at slight overachievement without legitimate hope of a competition when there are glaring issues slapping them in the face each week. We’re clearly not maxing out 2/3/4 in a way that optimises chance of premiership.

I will give you that last year we got all the luck to finish where we did with the dismal approach. The for and against shows that.
I'm not saying it's perfect.

What I stand by though is having factor 1 makes factors 2, 3, 4 a hell of a lot easier. Factor 1 is the most important factor and we don't have it. I can see we are working towards it, but we're nowhere near it right now.
Maybe you should quit jumping in on people asking for improvements in the other areas then.

You can believe factor 1 is more important. But you can’t seem to refute that there’s room for improvement in the other areas.
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