POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

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In which position should Xavier Savage start in 2024?

Fullback
38
58%
Winger
28
42%
 
Total votes: 66

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Matt
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Matt »

Finchy wrote: January 24, 2024, 10:43 pm
Matt wrote: January 24, 2024, 9:37 pm
Finchy wrote: January 24, 2024, 8:56 pm
Hong Kong Raider wrote: January 24, 2024, 11:02 am When he's played with us for an extended period he's played well. Give the guy an opportunity - anywhere. Wing for me. If the coaches of Reece Walsh and the Hammer adopted the same attitude as we have treated Savage in 2023 then they wouldn't have developed. At the end of 2022, Savage was at least equal to Walsh and the Hammer, or only slightly behind.
I thought the Hammer had an attitude problem and got dropped from the fullback spot which is why he left the Cowboys
They had/have Drinky, Val, Feldt and Taulagi. Cant remember the other centre at the time, Hiku(?). They didn't have room for Hammer too. He was too good to be the 5th or 6th back. If memory serves, his D was also questionable initially.
Talented competition no doubt, but there was still an attitude aspect.

‘Not disappointed or bitter’: Payten reveals why they let Hammer go as Dolphin dazzles: https://www.foxsports.com.au/nrl/nrl-pr ... 531c6ed674
Yeah ok. Not a bad way of saying it too
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Seiffert82 »

Cranky Old Man wrote:There is a bit of "The Dog That Didn't Bark" about Savage. In all the interviews with players and coaching staff that I have seen since late last year not one of them has mentioned Xavier as a strong shot at first grade in 24. There have some mentions in passing after ginning up some other players but any mention has always seemed to be a bit of an afterthought. From talking to some staff with the juniors squads the one consistent comment in among the usual kerfuffel you get about players is messaging about "listening". I get a vibe that the club and many of the players within it consider Xavier a bit of a big head.
Now there wouldnt have been a squad in the history of the game that didnt have a big head within it and it would not ordinarily hinder progress in the game. But I get the impression that Xavier has mightily p****d off plenty at the Raiders and they are looking for him to grow up a bit and are yet to see it.
His future is in his hands, has he got what it might take to secure that future?
That's 100% the vibe you get from both public and private comments made on Savage.

For that reason it's hard to pass judgement on where he fits in the squad.

As a fan you can't beg the club to implement a Melbourne Storm-like philosophy on player preparation and professionalism and then complain when a talented player gets shuffled down the pecking order due to a poor off-field attitude.

Hopefully Stewart is a different kettle of fish.

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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Billy Walker »

Seiffert82 wrote: January 25, 2024, 5:25 pm
Cranky Old Man wrote:There is a bit of "The Dog That Didn't Bark" about Savage. In all the interviews with players and coaching staff that I have seen since late last year not one of them has mentioned Xavier as a strong shot at first grade in 24. There have some mentions in passing after ginning up some other players but any mention has always seemed to be a bit of an afterthought. From talking to some staff with the juniors squads the one consistent comment in among the usual kerfuffel you get about players is messaging about "listening". I get a vibe that the club and many of the players within it consider Xavier a bit of a big head.
Now there wouldnt have been a squad in the history of the game that didnt have a big head within it and it would not ordinarily hinder progress in the game. But I get the impression that Xavier has mightily p****d off plenty at the Raiders and they are looking for him to grow up a bit and are yet to see it.
His future is in his hands, has he got what it might take to secure that future?
That's 100% the vibe you get from both public and private comments made on Savage.

For that reason it's hard to pass judgement on where he fits in the squad.

As a fan you can't beg the club to implement a Melbourne Storm-like philosophy on player preparation and professionalism and then complain when a talented player gets shuffled down the pecking order due to a poor off-field attitude.

Hopefully Stewart is a different kettle of fish.

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Agree - would love to see him get a shot and do well but not at the expense of culture and standards. I’ll back Rick’s judgement on him over anyone on the GH.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by gangrenous »

Seiffert82 wrote: As a fan you can't beg the club to implement a Melbourne Storm-like philosophy on player preparation and professionalism and then complain when a talented player gets shuffled down the pecking order due to a poor off-field attitude.
Fair, as long as it really is poor attitude and not just rubbing people the wrong way or struggling to buy into ultimate crash ball.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by greeneyed »

We have extra votes… but we are still tied… Last chance to vote. We need to close this on Monday.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by luffraider »

I can’t seem to vote on my phone through Tapatalk.

But savage at fullback for me
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Cranky Old Man »

It wasnt specifically about Savage but applicable anyhow. Last weekend I was speaking to a bloke involved with the Raiders juniors and mentioned how fans favourites/ non favoured are often different to what we see onthe field. His comment was that at best fans see 1.5 hours plus a clip or two of players per week. At best. Coaching staff watch them and monitor them for several hours per day at training and then gohome and watch it all again on video for several more hours. Then they discuss it all among themselves and with senior players. There is absolutely nothing discussed by fans that they havent analysed and discussed ad nauseum. They are absolutely aware of seeming faults we obsess about, (speed, agility, strength, endurance etc) and have probably ordered specific tests to see if these problems are as bad as we think and if a remedy is available either with the particular player or by substitution of players.
It was an interesting conversation, I wish I could have extended it further but he was disenclined to speak about specific players.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Finchy »

Cranky Old Man wrote: January 27, 2024, 1:45 pm It wasnt specifically about Savage but applicable anyhow. Last weekend I was speaking to a bloke involved with the Raiders juniors and mentioned how fans favourites/ non favoured are often different to what we see onthe field. His comment was that at best fans see 1.5 hours plus a clip or two of players per week. At best. Coaching staff watch them and monitor them for several hours per day at training and then gohome and watch it all again on video for several more hours. Then they discuss it all among themselves and with senior players. There is absolutely nothing discussed by fans that they havent analysed and discussed ad nauseum. They are absolutely aware of seeming faults we obsess about, (speed, agility, strength, endurance etc) and have probably ordered specific tests to see if these problems are as bad as we think and if a remedy is available either with the particular player or by substitution of players.
It was an interesting conversation, I wish I could have extended it further but he was disenclined to speak about specific players.
See, this is interesting, because there are often aspects of play that Ricky is either very slow to change even though fans called it weeks or months earlier, or never change. If they watch everything so much closer than we do, why roll out the same players with the same inept attack or defense every week?

Why does someone like CNK die with the ball every attacking set and can't pass when he's with us, look nervous under the high ball and fall on the ground to catch it looking terrified back there, yet first season back at the Warriors he's killing it in that department? Are our coaches just incompetent?
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by greeneyed »

luffraider wrote: January 27, 2024, 1:15 pm I can’t seem to vote on my phone through Tapatalk.

But savage at fullback for me
You need to vote using a browser. The site works well in a mobile phone browser. Will count this in the poll.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by greeneyed »

Extremely tight vote still… once the poll has been open seven full days (Monday afternoon) we will call it, whoever is in front.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Seiffert82 »


gangrenous wrote:
Seiffert82 wrote: As a fan you can't beg the club to implement a Melbourne Storm-like philosophy on player preparation and professionalism and then complain when a talented player gets shuffled down the pecking order due to a poor off-field attitude.
Fair, as long as it really is poor attitude and not just rubbing people the wrong way or struggling to buy into ultimate crash ball.
Yep, although rubbing the coaching staff the wrong way is generally not a recipe for success.

Our coaching staff has proven the ability to play expansive football if the players are up for it. It's up to Savage to prove he's ready to go. For that reason I'm not voting in this one.


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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Bluesbrother »

Finchy wrote: January 24, 2024, 10:43 pm
Matt wrote: January 24, 2024, 9:37 pm
Finchy wrote: January 24, 2024, 8:56 pm
Hong Kong Raider wrote: January 24, 2024, 11:02 am When he's played with us for an extended period he's played well. Give the guy an opportunity - anywhere. Wing for me. If the coaches of Reece Walsh and the Hammer adopted the same attitude as we have treated Savage in 2023 then they wouldn't have developed. At the end of 2022, Savage was at least equal to Walsh and the Hammer, or only slightly behind.
I thought the Hammer had an attitude problem and got dropped from the fullback spot which is why he left the Cowboys
They had/have Drinky, Val, Feldt and Taulagi. Cant remember the other centre at the time, Hiku(?). They didn't have room for Hammer too. He was too good to be the 5th or 6th back. If memory serves, his D was also questionable initially.
Talented competition no doubt, but there was still an attitude aspect.

‘Not disappointed or bitter’: Payten reveals why they let Hammer go as Dolphin dazzles: https://www.foxsports.com.au/nrl/nrl-pr ... 531c6ed674
Sometimes players just 'need a change' Jack Wighton springs to mind :hi The change was a great one for Hammer. A guy like Bennett is very good at managing these types of players - James Roberts in semi recent times, Latrell more recently, now Hammer.

TBH I don't think this is Ricky's go. It's a weakness of his for sure, it's not his style. I can see Savage ending up somewhere else and doing well if he has the right type of allowances made for him. The Eels might work.

I hope it works out here for Savage but I wouldn't be shocked to see him depart if he doesn't fire this season. 24 is a make or break for his career at the Raiders.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Matt »

greeneyed wrote: January 28, 2024, 5:02 am Extremely tight vote still… once the poll has been open seven full days (Monday afternoon) we will call it, whoever is in front.
GE, can I suggest a different result...

Stewart polled 23 votes for 37% in 2nd at FB.
The 3rd winger is Cotric at 12 votes for 15%.

It's a popularity vote, so Savage obviously plays as hes picked twice, therefore its really Stewart vs Cotric to fit around him. By votes and %s Stewart > Cotric.

The GH has voted more strongly at FB as its "divisive position", where as its much clearer on the wingers, as the options haven't diluted the result, it's a strong 1st and 2nd.

As it stands, your actually getting the least picked of the 2 players above, because FB is winning.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by greeneyed »

I can see your point Matt. But that is the result of a vote for one position in one, and two in another. So the wing vote (three horse race) is almost certain to be more split than fullback (two horse race). And we've gone down the vote off path now (with the implicit choice being 1. Savage 2. Cotric versus 1. Stewart 2. Savage) so I think we have to stick to it.

Personally, I'd rather have Chevy Stewart at fullback and Xavier Savage on the wing. It is a longer term and more dangerous combination than Savage at fullback and Nick Cotric on the wing, IMO. But looks like the latter is in the lead at the moment.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Matt »

Yup. We are on the same page
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by greeneyed »

Matt wrote: January 28, 2024, 1:50 pm Yup. We are on the same page
A few people change their minds and we have a different outcome. Still could happen!
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Off »

Sure could.

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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Billy Walker »

The suspense is killing me
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Ruben Daley »

Finchy wrote: January 27, 2024, 1:58 pm
Cranky Old Man wrote: January 27, 2024, 1:45 pm It wasnt specifically about Savage but applicable anyhow. Last weekend I was speaking to a bloke involved with the Raiders juniors and mentioned how fans favourites/ non favoured are often different to what we see onthe field. His comment was that at best fans see 1.5 hours plus a clip or two of players per week. At best. Coaching staff watch them and monitor them for several hours per day at training and then gohome and watch it all again on video for several more hours. Then they discuss it all among themselves and with senior players. There is absolutely nothing discussed by fans that they havent analysed and discussed ad nauseum. They are absolutely aware of seeming faults we obsess about, (speed, agility, strength, endurance etc) and have probably ordered specific tests to see if these problems are as bad as we think and if a remedy is available either with the particular player or by substitution of players.
It was an interesting conversation, I wish I could have extended it further but he was disenclined to speak about specific players.
See, this is interesting, because there are often aspects of play that Ricky is either very slow to change even though fans called it weeks or months earlier, or never change. If they watch everything so much closer than we do, why roll out the same players with the same inept attack or defense every week?

Why does someone like CNK die with the ball every attacking set and can't pass when he's with us, look nervous under the high ball and fall on the ground to catch it looking terrified back there, yet first season back at the Warriors he's killing it in that department? Are our coaches just incompetent?
Great insight, Cranky.

I was going to say something similar to Finchy but my example would’ve been the hookers, specifically the difference between Woolford’s service and Starling/Levi’s.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by BadnMean »

Sounds like sometimes they can't see the forest for the trees then.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Coastalraider »

I heard a really insightful quote recently about leadership of a group and how to improve -

‘it’s hard to objectively analyse an issue that you have yourself created’.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Botman »

I don't doubt the coaches have an plethora of tools available to them to analysis the squad and identify issues and I take the point entirely about us fans seeing but only a small portion of what the players do through out a week.

However, 2 points
1. The part we see is unquestionably the most important part. And is the part in which every other part is in service to. If you don't get the actually 80 minute game right, it doesn't really matter if everything else was perfect.
2. Being able to identify the issues is one thing but the club and the coaching staff's job is to actually rectify those issues.

I don't need to see the rehearsals and the audition process to tell you if a play/movie sucks. I don't need to see or know every detail of how the sausage is made to tell you if it tastes good. The goal is to produce an end product that people like.
To continue, I don't need to have every bit of information about the Monday to Friday process to know if the Game Day product has consistently fallen short of my ambitions for the club as a fan. (Mine, not theirs... I would wager the club and coaching staff consider it a pretty good year if they limp into the 8 and get bundled out week 1).

And I don't need to know what the problems are that the coaches and club have identified and whether they mirror my observations and opinions.
Nor do I need to know what they have or haven't don't to address those. It'd be great if I did get to know that, that would be interesting! But I don't need it.

All I need to know is it the club's job (primarily the coach and his staff) to identify and rectify the issues and produce a quality end product.
This is a results based business, you either get it sorted, or you don't. No room for "well we tried!" in sports.
And Stuart and his staff have done a poor job in recent years of rectifying issues.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Bluesbrother »

Botman wrote: January 29, 2024, 7:28 am I don't doubt the coaches have an plethora of tools available to them to analysis the squad and identify issues and I take the point entirely about us fans seeing but only a small portion of what the players do through out a week.

However, 2 points
1. The part we see is unquestionably the most important part. And is the part in which every other part is in service to. If you don't get the actually 80 minute game right, it doesn't really matter if everything else was perfect.
2. Being able to identify the issues is one thing but the club and the coaching staff's job is to actually rectify those issues.

I don't need to see the rehearsals and the audition process to tell you if a play/movie sucks. I don't need to see or know every detail of how the sausage is made to tell you if it tastes good. The goal is to produce an end product that people like.
To continue, I don't need to have every bit of information about the Monday to Friday process to know if the Game Day product has consistently fallen short of my ambitions for the club as a fan. (Mine, not theirs... I would wager the club and coaching staff consider it a pretty good year if they limp into the 8 and get bundled out week 1).

And I don't need to know what the problems are that the coaches and club have identified and whether they mirror my observations and opinions.
Nor do I need to know what they have or haven't don't to address those. It'd be great if I did get to know that, that would be interesting! But I don't need it.

All I need to know is it the club's job (primarily the coach and his staff) to identify and rectify the issues and produce a quality end product.
This is a results based business, you either get it sorted, or you don't. No room for "well we tried!" in sports.
And Stuart and his staff have done a poor job in recent years of rectifying issues.
By that measure though, you also need to consider what they are working with.

The performance needs to be in the realms of what is possible. The last 2 seasons you could make the case we haven't been in the top 8 teams on paper, yet we have still made the finals.

I think our fans, and most fans, don't see the reality of where their teams sit/what is realistically a success for them. I get it, it's fair enough, we want to win premierships every season. But for some clubs, like us, that's just not reality. There is no excuse for clubs like the Roosters or the Broncos. They should be top 4 every year, but they aren't. They should be, and are rightly crucified for that. We're in a different league to these sorts of teams IMO so we need to have realistic expectations.

It's fine to say it's thier job to rectify issues, I agree with that. But the issues also need to be in the sphere on influence for the coaches and club in order for them to be fixed. I.e. every club in the NRL wants a premiership calibre half, we are no exception. A player/s capable of putting a team on their back and winning games, yet only 2, maybe 3 teams have those players. They are the clubs that win comps. A lack of a quality playmaker has been our downfall since the glory days of the Raiders. It's a major issue. Yet how do you propose we fix it? It's not a simple issue.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Botman »

No one is asking for a premiership every year. Do you even know how much grace Stuart would get from fans if he delivered ONE SINGLE premiership? Just one? He'd have a job for life and everyone would be fine with it. He's had 10+ years and he hasnt got the job done. It's pretty reasonable to wonder if we should give someone else a try. And yes it's hard but that's the job. And he has seemingly been incapable of doing it. So enough of that nonsense, thanks.
Bluesbrother wrote: January 29, 2024, 2:03 pm By that measure though, you also need to consider what they are working with.
And im more than happy to do that. Let's consider what Ricky Stuart is working with. And let's even say what he is working with hasn't been good enough.
Good news, i know exactly who to blame for Ricky Stuart the coach, not having the players good enough... and it's Ricky Stuart the defacto GM!
Bluesbrother wrote: January 29, 2024, 2:03 pmA lack of a quality playmaker has been our downfall since the glory days of the Raiders. It's a major issue. Yet how do you propose we fix it? It's not a simple issue.
No its not simple and it's not easy, but it's the job and he's had 10 years to figure it out and hasn't done it yet. How long does he get? Because a job is hard, you just get however long you like failing at it before it might be reasonable to look to someone else who might be able to fix it? Again 10 years and he hasn't fixed it.
You can buy one, that's tough. But most are developed in house and Stuart over 10 years has had his fair share of decent talents to develop and they've never panned out, not even close!
Even dating back at his previous stops, he's never been able to successfully develop a quality half. That's always been a knock on him. Young halves fail to develop under him.

So now we've got Sanders and Strange, two elite talents... and in 2-3 years time if they don't pan out, people like you are going to be here telling me he didnt have the cattle and it's not his fault. Again.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Bluesbrother »

Botman wrote: January 29, 2024, 2:20 pm No one is asking for a premiership every year. Do you even know how much grace Stuart would get from fans if he delivered ONE SINGLE premiership? Just one? He'd have a job for life and everyone would be fine with it. He's had 10+ years and he hasnt got the job done. It's pretty reasonable to wonder if we should give someone else a try. And yes it's hard but that's the job. And he has seemingly been incapable of doing it. So enough of that nonsense, thanks.
Bluesbrother wrote: January 29, 2024, 2:03 pm By that measure though, you also need to consider what they are working with.
And im more than happy to do that. Let's consider what Ricky Stuart is working with. And let's even say what he is working with hasn't been good enough.
Good news, i know exactly who to blame for Ricky Stuart the coach, not having the players good enough... and it's Ricky Stuart the defacto GM!
Bluesbrother wrote: January 29, 2024, 2:03 pmA lack of a quality playmaker has been our downfall since the glory days of the Raiders. It's a major issue. Yet how do you propose we fix it? It's not a simple issue.
No its not simple and it's not easy, but it's the job and he's had 10 years to figure it out and hasn't done it yet. How long does he get? Because a job is hard, you just get however long you like failing at it before it might be reasonable to look to someone else who might be able to fix it? Again 10 years and he hasn't fixed it.
You can buy one, that's tough. But most are developed in house and Stuart over 10 years has had his fair share of decent talents to develop and they've never panned out, not even close!
Even dating back at his previous stops, he's never been able to successfully develop a quality half. That's always been a knock on him. Young halves fail to develop under him.

So now we've got Sanders and Strange, two elite talents... and in 2-3 years time if they don't pan out, people like you are going to be here telling me he didnt have the cattle and it's not his fault. Again.
There's some truth in what you're saying but there is also some waffle. The 2019 GF came down to a few player and match official errors, not coaching. If, these things that are outside the coaches control, had of gone differently, your saying he would have a contract for life? Doesn't make much sense.

In regards to the half issue, it's an issue across the game and for the most part I'd say the Raiders have made plays to improve this area on a consistent basis. They have done well in this area. Blake Austin won a 5/8 of the year award and Jack Wighton won a Dally M under Ricky. Sezer and George Williams also played very well here. I think if Williams had of stayed and been our long term half we would be in a different position than we have been these last 2 seasons and out top 8 finishes would more likely have been top 4. Even with George's departure, I still think we gave been in the top 5 best performing NRL teams over the last 5 years. Which is quite an achievement considering our well documented challenges.

Interestingly, I think there has been a recognition that developing half backs is an area of his coaching that's flawed and that's why the club targeted the likes of Sezer, Williams and Fogarty over less experienced players. I will be interested to see how Sanders goes. If we get him and he has got the goods, I will be with you saying it's not good enough if this new approach fails.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Bluesbrother »

Botman wrote: January 29, 2024, 2:20 pm No one is asking for a premiership every year. Do you even know how much grace Stuart would get from fans if he delivered ONE SINGLE premiership? Just one? He'd have a job for life and everyone would be fine with it. He's had 10+ years and he hasnt got the job done. It's pretty reasonable to wonder if we should give someone else a try. And yes it's hard but that's the job. And he has seemingly been incapable of doing it. So enough of that nonsense, thanks.
Bluesbrother wrote: January 29, 2024, 2:03 pm By that measure though, you also need to consider what they are working with.
And im more than happy to do that. Let's consider what Ricky Stuart is working with. And let's even say what he is working with hasn't been good enough.
Good news, i know exactly who to blame for Ricky Stuart the coach, not having the players good enough... and it's Ricky Stuart the defacto GM!
Bluesbrother wrote: January 29, 2024, 2:03 pmA lack of a quality playmaker has been our downfall since the glory days of the Raiders. It's a major issue. Yet how do you propose we fix it? It's not a simple issue.
No its not simple and it's not easy, but it's the job and he's had 10 years to figure it out and hasn't done it yet. How long does he get? Because a job is hard, you just get however long you like failing at it before it might be reasonable to look to someone else who might be able to fix it? Again 10 years and he hasn't fixed it.
You can buy one, that's tough. But most are developed in house and Stuart over 10 years has had his fair share of decent talents to develop and they've never panned out, not even close!
Even dating back at his previous stops, he's never been able to successfully develop a quality half. That's always been a knock on him. Young halves fail to develop under him.

So now we've got Sanders and Strange, two elite talents... and in 2-3 years time if they don't pan out, people like you are going to be here telling me he didnt have the cattle and it's not his fault. Again.
There's some truth in what you're saying but there is also some waffle. The 2019 GF came down to a few player and match official errors, not coaching. If, these things that are outside the coaches control, had of gone differently, your saying he would have a contract for life? Doesn't make much sense.

In regards to the half issue, it's an issue across the game and for the most part I'd say the Raiders have made plays to improve this area on a consistent basis. They have done well in this area. Blake Austin won a 5/8 of the year award and Jack Wighton won a Dally M under Ricky. Sezer and George Williams also played very well here. I think if Williams had of stayed and been our long term half we would be in a different position than we have been these last 2 seasons and out top 8 finishes would more likely have been top 4. Even with George's departure, I still think we gave been in the top 5 best performing NRL teams over the last 5 years. Which is quite an achievement considering our well documented challenges.

Interestingly, I think there has been a recognition that developing half backs is an area of his coaching that's flawed and that's why the club targeted the likes of Sezer, Williams and Fogarty over less experienced players. I will be interested to see how Sanders goes. If we get him and he has got the goods, I will be with you saying it's not good enough if this new approach fails.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Coastalraider »

Simple question- how many games in 2023 did you watch and think ‘this team is playing to the full potential of its parts’.

Mmaaayybeeee the knights final. When we finally had some kids in and the ball started moving a bit.

I know we finished in the 8, and I know we didn’t have a premiership winning squad on paper; but it was immensely frustrating to watch week after week and have it plain as day that the game plans, selections and bench usage were limiting the ceiling of our squad, regardless of result.
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Here we go with 2019 again… 4.5 years ago! We didn’t win! Why does it continually get brought up?

And actually, how can you say unequivocally coaching didn’t cost us? Rick’s tactics that entire finals series were negative, unstructured mess apart from 80 mins of grind, playing not to lose rather than to win.

Kinda the same tactics he has always used - it just so happened he had some talented individuals in the prime of their careers in 2019 with the confidence in their own games to back themselves. (And for that I will absolutely give the great man Rick due credit - bringing Bateman, Leilua and Rapana as recruits to the club is equal to any of our previous golden recruitment eras targeting Qld, NZ and the Pacific Islands.)
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Post by Matt »

Coastalraider wrote: January 29, 2024, 4:11 pm Simple question- how many games in 2023 did you watch and think ‘this team is playing to the full potential of its parts’.

Mmaaayybeeee the knights final. When we finally had some kids in and the ball started moving a bit.

I know we finished in the 8, and I know we didn’t have a premiership winning squad on paper; but it was immensely frustrating to watch week after week and have it plain as day that the game plans, selections and bench usage were limiting the ceiling of our squad, regardless of result.
Maybe the Bronx game when we were understrength, but even that was scrappy.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Bluesbrother »

Coastalraider wrote: January 29, 2024, 4:11 pm Simple question- how many games in 2023 did you watch and think ‘this team is playing to the full potential of its parts’.

Mmaaayybeeee the knights final. When we finally had some kids in and the ball started moving a bit.

I know we finished in the 8, and I know we didn’t have a premiership winning squad on paper; but it was immensely frustrating to watch week after week and have it plain as day that the game plans, selections and bench usage were limiting the ceiling of our squad, regardless of result.
I agree. I think it was very poor to watch unfold.

I think a weakness of Ricky's is his loyalty. It's also a great strength no doubt in other areas. But with the likes of Wighton and Whitehead, they were given far too much rope. Wighton leaving on his own accord is a huge blessing for us IMO. I think the continued selection of him at 6 was a huge mistake which stifled our attack. As did/does having Whitehead on an edge. He is forced to change that this season and I think it will be better for our attack.

That said, they still found a way to win which is commendable when you consider the strength of teams who won less games.
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Post by Bluesbrother »

Rickmando wrote: January 29, 2024, 4:29 pm Here we go with 2019 again… 4.5 years ago! We didn’t win! Why does it continually get brought up?

And actually, how can you say unequivocally coaching didn’t cost us? Rick’s tactics that entire finals series were negative, unstructured mess apart from 80 mins of grind, playing not to lose rather than to win.

Kinda the same tactics he has always used - it just so happened he had some talented individuals in the prime of their careers in 2019 with the confidence in their own games to back themselves. (And for that I will absolutely give the great man Rick due credit - bringing Bateman, Leilua and Rapana as recruits to the club is equal to any of our previous golden recruitment eras targeting Qld, NZ and the Pacific Islands.)
I guess my belief around coaches might be different to yours. I believe coaches can make a huge difference in building the right environment for success and for individuals to be their best. As for individual games though, I don't believe coaching has a huge impact. Sure, you can implant some ideas and provide some structure but whether that works or not comes down to the players. Michael Hagan didn't make Andrew Johns great, Andrew Johns made himself great by the decisions HE made on the field. The same can be said for Cleary now or Cameron Smith before him. They decide games, not because of the coaching they receive, but because of their own actions.

Sheens being credited with the Raiders success in the late 80's early 90's isn't accurate IMO. If he didn't have the cattle that he did, nothing great would have occurred. Sure, he provided a great environment I am sure, but did winning GF's come down to his tactics? Not for me. It came down to the players.

The same could be said for Wayne Bennett. The rosters he had at the Bronco's over the years have been ridiculously good. Did he play a role, of course he did, but other competent coaches could have taken that side to premierships too.

In the coaching ranks, the guy that stands head and shoulders above the rest is Bellamy IMO. Pretty much every player he gets, they improve when they go to the Storm. For me that's the mark of a coach. Not premierships or trophies. It's whether they get the best out of thier players.

In relation to the Raiders of the last 10 years, I can't think of too many players who haven't improved, become better players or played thier best football here. There are some for sure, but not many.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by greeneyed »

Poll declared. Savage selected at fullback, Cotric on the wing.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Coastalraider »

Bluesbrother wrote: January 29, 2024, 5:39 pm
Coastalraider wrote: January 29, 2024, 4:11 pm Simple question- how many games in 2023 did you watch and think ‘this team is playing to the full potential of its parts’.

Mmaaayybeeee the knights final. When we finally had some kids in and the ball started moving a bit.

I know we finished in the 8, and I know we didn’t have a premiership winning squad on paper; but it was immensely frustrating to watch week after week and have it plain as day that the game plans, selections and bench usage were limiting the ceiling of our squad, regardless of result.
I agree. I think it was very poor to watch unfold.

I think a weakness of Ricky's is his loyalty. It's also a great strength no doubt in other areas. But with the likes of Wighton and Whitehead, they were given far too much rope. Wighton leaving on his own accord is a huge blessing for us IMO. I think the continued selection of him at 6 was a huge mistake which stifled our attack. As did/does having Whitehead on an edge. He is forced to change that this season and I think it will be better for our attack.

That said, they still found a way to win which is commendable when you consider the strength of teams who won less games.
There’s a fine line between ‘finding a way to win’ and nearly losing.
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Post by Finchy »

Bluesbrother wrote: January 29, 2024, 6:01 pm The same can be said for Cleary now or Cameron Smith before him. They decide games, not because of the coaching they receive, but because of their own actions.
See, this I disagree with. Yes Nathan Cleary (and Stephen Crichton to a large extent) won the GF off the back of some individual brilliance, however they still played within their coached structures.

Ivan even said in the presser that he was pleased that they didn’t go outside of their structures and start throwing the ball around and doing high risk plays, even when down by 3 tries.

There was no panic, not trying to spread it early and score from inside their own 20 metre line, no chip and chase, or Hail Mary bombs.

Even players with the freakish talents of Nathan Cleary and Stephen Crichton managed to still play within their coached structure, and managed to win the game off the back of it.
Ata Mariota’s #1 fan. Bless his cotton socks.
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Post by Finchy »

Bluesbrother wrote: It's fine to say it's thier job to rectify issues, I agree with that. But the issues also need to be in the sphere on influence for the coaches and club in order for them to be fixed.
How do you explain the CNK example I cited earlier? His ability to ball-play at the line was non existent. Whenever we tried an attacking backline move, the ball died with him. 4 or so years, no improvement. And his confidence under the high ball got worse and worse to the point he would lie down or sit on the ground to catch it, too scared to jump for it without making an error.

As soon as he goes to the Warriors under a rookie coach he can do both things with confidence. Why could the Warriors coaching staff get the best out of him, yet he only got worse under us? Clearly the issue was able to be rectified with coaching.
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