POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

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In which position should Xavier Savage start in 2024?

Fullback
38
58%
Winger
28
42%
 
Total votes: 66

julian87
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by julian87 »

Finchy wrote: January 29, 2024, 10:54 pm
Bluesbrother wrote: January 29, 2024, 6:01 pm The same can be said for Cleary now or Cameron Smith before him. They decide games, not because of the coaching they receive, but because of their own actions.
See, this I disagree with. Yes Nathan Cleary (and Stephen Crichton to a large extent) won the GF off the back of some individual brilliance, however they still played within their coached structures.

Ivan even said in the presser that he was pleased that they didn’t go outside of their structures and start throwing the ball around and doing high risk plays, even when down by 3 tries.

There was no panic, not trying to spread it early and score from inside their own 20 metre line, no chip and chase, or Hail Mary bombs.

Even players with the freakish talents of Nathan Cleary and Stephen Crichton managed to still play within their coached structure, and managed to win the game off the back of it.
Or we can acknowledge that it was a master stroke to hook Luai, put Cogger at 7 giving Cleary space at 6. They changed their ‘structure’ and won the game because of it.
well, I guess you could say that I'm buy curious.
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Finchy
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Finchy »

julian87 wrote: January 31, 2024, 7:43 am
Finchy wrote: January 29, 2024, 10:54 pm
Bluesbrother wrote: January 29, 2024, 6:01 pm The same can be said for Cleary now or Cameron Smith before him. They decide games, not because of the coaching they receive, but because of their own actions.
See, this I disagree with. Yes Nathan Cleary (and Stephen Crichton to a large extent) won the GF off the back of some individual brilliance, however they still played within their coached structures.

Ivan even said in the presser that he was pleased that they didn’t go outside of their structures and start throwing the ball around and doing high risk plays, even when down by 3 tries.

There was no panic, not trying to spread it early and score from inside their own 20 metre line, no chip and chase, or Hail Mary bombs.

Even players with the freakish talents of Nathan Cleary and Stephen Crichton managed to still play within their coached structure, and managed to win the game off the back of it.
Or we can acknowledge that it was a master stroke to hook Luai, put Cogger at 7 giving Cleary space at 6. They changed their ‘structure’ and won the game because of it.
Yeah they adapted due to injury. Pantherball plan A was scrapped, and Pantherball plan B was implemented. Either way, it was still Pantherball.
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Botman
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Botman »

Imagine having a coach looking at what is going on in a game, and making an in game, real time adjustment to try and change the course of the game and the outcome.
Couldnt be us.
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Matt
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Matt »

Bluesbrother wrote: January 30, 2024, 3:45 pm
Botman wrote: January 30, 2024, 3:29 pm 100%
I say it all the time. The coaches get paid too! If we could just flog blokes and expect them to figure it out skill and structure wise, why pay Stuart 1m a year?
Just get a boot camp instructor in for 70k a year and save the money.

Coaching is a teaching role. It’s the coach and his staff’s job to teach the players, communicate and educate them on what is required of them. Help them hone their craft and grow as footballers.

CNK is a great touching point for this. He was a ball stopper with us. Had no ability or confidence to pass the football in structure. And it crippled our attack.

The NZ warriors got more out of him in this department in one off season than we got in 4 years! He didn’t just wake up one morning and decide “oh ****, now I’m a warrior, maybe I will pass the ball!”

They’ve got him fluently working into space, drawing and passing, quick hands, even the odd cut out ball.
What he did for the warriors this year was maybe the largest indictment on this coaching staff as anything. That coaching staff was able to unlocked his full potential in one off season.

Stuart and his staff had 4 years to do that and couldn’t.
CNK was a NSW cup centre before he joined us at 22/23 years of age. The Raiders gave him an opportunity and he turned into an elite fullback within 12 months. Whilst I agree he has improved again since returning to the Warriors, he was a nobody stuck in reserve grade before he joined us.
CNK was a FB/ 5/8 in under 20s.
Played ctr, wing and FB in NSW Cup and FG before coming to us. Passing on a sweep etc wasn't new to him.
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Matt
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Matt »

gangrenous wrote: January 30, 2024, 6:52 pm Let’s push the analogy to breaking point Image

The kids keep taking abacuses (abacii?) to math competitions and their teachers are clearly working very hard to make them passable on their abacus. The teachers select the kids who go in competitions based on those who can best utilise the abacus.

It’s pretty clear they’re not being shown/developing calculator skills, and each year it’s a kid with a calculator winning the competition.

Meanwhile a couple of the kids down the back of the class have written 8008132 on the calculator which the audience loves and shows they have some calculator skills. Yet these kids are no good at the abacus, so don’t get to go in the competition and see if they could have calculator skills built to success.
:clap: :lol:
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Matt
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Matt »

Bluesbrother wrote: January 30, 2024, 8:22 pm :x
Finchy wrote: January 30, 2024, 8:16 pm
Bluesbrother wrote: January 30, 2024, 8:04 pm Players have come here and become better players. You mentioned CNK earlier, CNK came here a D grader and left a B I'd have thought. Most players that come to the Raiders now get better and/or play thier best football here.
See, this isn’t actually true. CNK was actually a gun, and scored 7 tries in his first 7 games at the Warriors. Only problem was he was stuck behind the world’s best fullback at the time being RTS.

We needed a fullback and McFadden knew he was a talented kid who just needed a chance from his time coaching in NZ. CNK took that chance and dominated his first season with us. Not because we developed him. He then regressed each year after, much like Blake Austin. And a few others we’ve had.

Our coaching structure seemingly destroyed what individual brilliance they had, amongst other factors
So the same structures that allowed them opportunity to show thier ability and perform better than they ever had simultaneously eroded thier ability. Makes sense.
The issue here is u see CNK as a guy who was a D to start with. Never was.

I saw a Trey Mooney stuck behind rep players (TBF past yr probably not) that got a real crack an proved what he can actually do.

As others pointed out, had to be a FB behind RTS.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Ruben Daley »

Blues Brother, I’m sympathetic to your point that some fans don’t give enough credit to the coaching staff for the achievements over recent years. However, I don’t think it’s correct to say Ricky improved players. His best attribute with the players that have done well is to give them the opportunity.

Austin, the Poms, CNK, Horse, Hudson, Timoko etc. all performed well because Ricky gave them a jersey. But I don’t think we can credit Ricky for any of the specific skills those guys brought to the team because they all had them prior to joining us. Often, those guys are/were actually stunted by the structures (or lack of) the club employed.

There are also very few examples of players coming here and adding a new string to their bow.

The other thing about Ricky is the number of players who he hasn’t given a decent go to.

I think a few of us are really worried about how he’ll handle Mooney, Puru, Savage etc.
Bluesbrother
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Bluesbrother »

Ruben Daley wrote: January 31, 2024, 2:00 pm Blues Brother, I’m sympathetic to your point that some fans don’t give enough credit to the coaching staff for the achievements over recent years. However, I don’t think it’s correct to say Ricky improved players. His best attribute with the players that have done well is to give them the opportunity.

Austin, the Poms, CNK, Horse, Hudson, Timoko etc. all performed well because Ricky gave them a jersey. But I don’t think we can credit Ricky for any of the specific skills those guys brought to the team because they all had them prior to joining us. Often, those guys are/were actually stunted by the structures (or lack of) the club employed.

There are also very few examples of players coming here and adding a new string to their bow.

The other thing about Ricky is the number of players who he hasn’t given a decent go to.

I think a few of us are really worried about how he’ll handle Mooney, Puru, Savage etc.
Fair call. It's hard to say who got what skills from where. The Raiders last 10 years has massively improved the club as a whole is my main point. On the field we now boast some legitimate representative stars and off the field we are a much greater presence in the community with a bigger profile than we had in the 20 years prior.

In the case of Hudson, Horse and Timoko it's hard to argue they haven't been developed and improved in our system though? Whether that's Ricky himself or other coaching staff. They have become representative players through progressing through our system.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Bluesbrother »

Matt wrote: January 31, 2024, 12:04 pm
Bluesbrother wrote: January 30, 2024, 8:22 pm :x
Finchy wrote: January 30, 2024, 8:16 pm
Bluesbrother wrote: January 30, 2024, 8:04 pm Players have come here and become better players. You mentioned CNK earlier, CNK came here a D grader and left a B I'd have thought. Most players that come to the Raiders now get better and/or play thier best football here.
See, this isn’t actually true. CNK was actually a gun, and scored 7 tries in his first 7 games at the Warriors. Only problem was he was stuck behind the world’s best fullback at the time being RTS.

We needed a fullback and McFadden knew he was a talented kid who just needed a chance from his time coaching in NZ. CNK took that chance and dominated his first season with us. Not because we developed him. He then regressed each year after, much like Blake Austin. And a few others we’ve had.

Our coaching structure seemingly destroyed what individual brilliance they had, amongst other factors
So the same structures that allowed them opportunity to show thier ability and perform better than they ever had simultaneously eroded thier ability. Makes sense.
The issue here is u see CNK as a guy who was a D to start with. Never was.

I saw a Trey Mooney stuck behind rep players (TBF past yr probably not) that got a real crack an proved what he can actually do.

As others pointed out, had to be a FB behind RTS.
If he was that good how couldn't he break into a dud Warriors side? He can play multiple positions, as you point out. Something obviously changed when he came to Canberra.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Matt »

Bluesbrother wrote: February 1, 2024, 5:23 pm
Matt wrote: January 31, 2024, 12:04 pm
Bluesbrother wrote: January 30, 2024, 8:22 pm :x
Finchy wrote: January 30, 2024, 8:16 pm
Bluesbrother wrote: January 30, 2024, 8:04 pm Players have come here and become better players. You mentioned CNK earlier, CNK came here a D grader and left a B I'd have thought. Most players that come to the Raiders now get better and/or play thier best football here.
See, this isn’t actually true. CNK was actually a gun, and scored 7 tries in his first 7 games at the Warriors. Only problem was he was stuck behind the world’s best fullback at the time being RTS.

We needed a fullback and McFadden knew he was a talented kid who just needed a chance from his time coaching in NZ. CNK took that chance and dominated his first season with us. Not because we developed him. He then regressed each year after, much like Blake Austin. And a few others we’ve had.

Our coaching structure seemingly destroyed what individual brilliance they had, amongst other factors
So the same structures that allowed them opportunity to show thier ability and perform better than they ever had simultaneously eroded thier ability. Makes sense.
The issue here is u see CNK as a guy who was a D to start with. Never was.

I saw a Trey Mooney stuck behind rep players (TBF past yr probably not) that got a real crack an proved what he can actually do.

As others pointed out, had to be a FB behind RTS.
If he was that good how couldn't he break into a dud Warriors side? He can play multiple positions, as you point out. Something obviously changed when he came to Canberra.
In 2017 CNK was 21 turning 22. So just out of u20s.

2017 Warriors backs:
1. RTS (c) - NZ FB
2. Vatuvei - former NZ Rep/ Lolohea former NZ Rep, current Tongan Rep/ Ayshford
3. Fusitua - NZ Rep
4. Kata - former NZ Rep, current Tongan Rep
5. Maumalo - previous Samoan Rep, current NZ Rep
6. Foran - NZ Rep
7. SJ - NZ Rep

Played all 7 games for Wahs in this season. Scored 7 tries.

CNK is 22 turning 23.
2018 Warriors backs:
1. RTS (c) - NZ FB
2. Fusitua - NZ Rep
3. Hiku - NZ Rep
4. Kata - former NZ Rep, current Tongan Rep
5. Maumalo - previous Samoan Rep, current NZ Rep
6. Green - poached from Storms winning sides
7. SJ - NZ Rep

So... why couldn't CNK break into a bad Warriors side?!?!? I wonder if it's because there were literally rep players in every backline position (Blake Green is the worst player of the lot) ???

I believe the word you are looking for is....
LAWYERED!
Bluesbrother
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Bluesbrother »

Matt wrote: February 1, 2024, 7:27 pm
Bluesbrother wrote: February 1, 2024, 5:23 pm
Matt wrote: January 31, 2024, 12:04 pm
Bluesbrother wrote: January 30, 2024, 8:22 pm :x
Finchy wrote: January 30, 2024, 8:16 pm

See, this isn’t actually true. CNK was actually a gun, and scored 7 tries in his first 7 games at the Warriors. Only problem was he was stuck behind the world’s best fullback at the time being RTS.

We needed a fullback and McFadden knew he was a talented kid who just needed a chance from his time coaching in NZ. CNK took that chance and dominated his first season with us. Not because we developed him. He then regressed each year after, much like Blake Austin. And a few others we’ve had.

Our coaching structure seemingly destroyed what individual brilliance they had, amongst other factors
So the same structures that allowed them opportunity to show thier ability and perform better than they ever had simultaneously eroded thier ability. Makes sense.
The issue here is u see CNK as a guy who was a D to start with. Never was.

I saw a Trey Mooney stuck behind rep players (TBF past yr probably not) that got a real crack an proved what he can actually do.

As others pointed out, had to be a FB behind RTS.
If he was that good how couldn't he break into a dud Warriors side? He can play multiple positions, as you point out. Something obviously changed when he came to Canberra.
In 2017 CNK was 21 turning 22. So just out of u20s.

2017 Warriors backs:
1. RTS (c) - NZ FB
2. Vatuvei - former NZ Rep/ Lolohea former NZ Rep, current Tongan Rep/ Ayshford
3. Fusitua - NZ Rep
4. Kata - former NZ Rep, current Tongan Rep
5. Maumalo - previous Samoan Rep, current NZ Rep
6. Foran - NZ Rep
7. SJ - NZ Rep

Played all 7 games for Wahs in this season. Scored 7 tries.

CNK is 22 turning 23.
2018 Warriors backs:
1. RTS (c) - NZ FB
2. Fusitua - NZ Rep
3. Hiku - NZ Rep
4. Kata - former NZ Rep, current Tongan Rep
5. Maumalo - previous Samoan Rep, current NZ Rep
6. Green - poached from Storms winning sides
7. SJ - NZ Rep

So... why couldn't CNK break into a bad Warriors side?!?!? I wonder if it's because there were literally rep players in every backline position (Blake Green is the worst player of the lot) ???

I believe the word you are looking for is....
LAWYERED!
Matty, keep it in your pants.

The thing you missed there is the Warriors chose to sign a washed up Peter Hiku from Warrington in the UK rather than promote CNK after Vatuvei's departure. I think that tells you a bit about how CNK was viewed at the club. He was viewed very much as a backup, NSW cup level player.
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Finchy
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Finchy »

Bluesbrother wrote: February 1, 2024, 7:57 pm Matty, keep it in your pants.

The thing you missed there is the Warriors chose to sign a washed up Peter Hiku from Warrington in the UK rather than promote CNK after Vatuvei's departure. I think that tells you a bit about how CNK was viewed at the club. He was viewed very much as a backup, NSW cup level player.
Hiku? Washed up? In 2018? Isn't he still playing first grade for the Cowboys like 7 years later?

And CNK was a back up. To RTS. The world's best fullback at the time. Scored 7 tries in 7 games of first grade when he had the opportunity. Hardly D grade. B grade at worst, A grade at best, stuck behind an A+.
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Botman
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Botman »

Tremendous content.
Bluesbrother
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Bluesbrother »

Finchy wrote: February 1, 2024, 8:03 pm
Bluesbrother wrote: February 1, 2024, 7:57 pm Matty, keep it in your pants.

The thing you missed there is the Warriors chose to sign a washed up Peter Hiku from Warrington in the UK rather than promote CNK after Vatuvei's departure. I think that tells you a bit about how CNK was viewed at the club. He was viewed very much as a backup, NSW cup level player.
Hiku? Washed up? In 2018? Isn't he still playing first grade for the Cowboys like 7 years later?

And CNK was a back up. To RTS. The world's best fullback at the time. Scored 7 tries in 7 games of first grade when he had the opportunity. Hardly D grade. B grade at worst, A grade at best, stuck behind an A+.
Why would you sign a C grader (Hiku) if you have a 22 year old 'gun' in reserve grade?

Was he stuck behind RTS though or are you just making that up? CNK has now played centre at international level, he had also played it in NSW cup, as Gangers said above, he was primarily a winger in NSW cup, so he could clearly cover the vacancy left by Manu Vativei. Yet, the Warriors decided to sign Hiku over the top of CNK.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Finchy »

Bluesbrother wrote: February 1, 2024, 8:15 pm
Finchy wrote: February 1, 2024, 8:03 pm
Bluesbrother wrote: February 1, 2024, 7:57 pm Matty, keep it in your pants.

The thing you missed there is the Warriors chose to sign a washed up Peter Hiku from Warrington in the UK rather than promote CNK after Vatuvei's departure. I think that tells you a bit about how CNK was viewed at the club. He was viewed very much as a backup, NSW cup level player.
Hiku? Washed up? In 2018? Isn't he still playing first grade for the Cowboys like 7 years later?

And CNK was a back up. To RTS. The world's best fullback at the time. Scored 7 tries in 7 games of first grade when he had the opportunity. Hardly D grade. B grade at worst, A grade at best, stuck behind an A+.
Why would you sign a C grader (Hiku) if you have a 22 year old 'gun' in reserve grade?

Was he stuck behind RTS though or are you just making that up? CNK has now played centre at international level, he had also played it in NSW cup, as Gangers said above, he was primarily a winger in NSW cup, so he could clearly cover the vacancy left by Manu Vativei. Yet, the Warriors decided to sign Hiku over the top of CNK.
You need to work on your rating scale. Hiku has never been a C grader. At the time he was a NZ rep (since 2014) and had played around 100 games and scored 40 odd tries. A bit of a better resume and more experience than CNK. Hardly a crazy signing. Still playing first grade all these years later.

And no I'm not making up that CNK was stuck behind RTS.
"The versatile back was contracted with the Warriors until the end of 2019, but was stuck behind not only Tuivasa-Sheck, but firing Warriors wingers Ken Maumalo and David Fusitua".
Read more: https://www.smh.com.au/sport/nrl/raider ... 50wq6.html

Another interesting article:
"He cracked the NRL side in 2017 – scoring seven tries in seven games – taking his chance when David Fusitu'a or Ken Maumalo were out, and also impressed off the field, being honoured as the clubman of the year.

Nicholl-Klokstad earnt a new two year contract, but halfway through 2018 he was told he was free to explore his options.

This is not just hindsight.

In February I wrote that he had "an X factor rarely seen in young players at the Warriors" and stood out for his "professional attitude".

He's certainly got more potential that several other outside backs currently at the club.

While the Warriors should be applauded in their stance of not wanting to hold players back, he was the kind of player you attempt to fit in somewhere, even if it means trying him at centre."

What a pity. There was some logic to their decision, as Nicholl-Klokstad was stuck behind Tuivasa-Sheck for the No 1 jersey, and Maumalo and Fusitu'a had a mortgage on the flank spots.
Read more: https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/rugby- ... IBEAUJH4M/
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Matt
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Matt »

Bluesbrother wrote: February 1, 2024, 7:57 pm
Matt wrote: February 1, 2024, 7:27 pm
Bluesbrother wrote: February 1, 2024, 5:23 pm
Matt wrote: January 31, 2024, 12:04 pm
Bluesbrother wrote: January 30, 2024, 8:22 pm :x

So the same structures that allowed them opportunity to show thier ability and perform better than they ever had simultaneously eroded thier ability. Makes sense.
The issue here is u see CNK as a guy who was a D to start with. Never was.

I saw a Trey Mooney stuck behind rep players (TBF past yr probably not) that got a real crack an proved what he can actually do.

As others pointed out, had to be a FB behind RTS.
If he was that good how couldn't he break into a dud Warriors side? He can play multiple positions, as you point out. Something obviously changed when he came to Canberra.
In 2017 CNK was 21 turning 22. So just out of u20s.

2017 Warriors backs:
1. RTS (c) - NZ FB
2. Vatuvei - former NZ Rep/ Lolohea former NZ Rep, current Tongan Rep/ Ayshford
3. Fusitua - NZ Rep
4. Kata - former NZ Rep, current Tongan Rep
5. Maumalo - previous Samoan Rep, current NZ Rep
6. Foran - NZ Rep
7. SJ - NZ Rep

Played all 7 games for Wahs in this season. Scored 7 tries.

CNK is 22 turning 23.
2018 Warriors backs:
1. RTS (c) - NZ FB
2. Fusitua - NZ Rep
3. Hiku - NZ Rep
4. Kata - former NZ Rep, current Tongan Rep
5. Maumalo - previous Samoan Rep, current NZ Rep
6. Green - poached from Storms winning sides
7. SJ - NZ Rep

So... why couldn't CNK break into a bad Warriors side?!?!? I wonder if it's because there were literally rep players in every backline position (Blake Green is the worst player of the lot) ???

I believe the word you are looking for is....
LAWYERED!
Matty, keep it in your pants.

The thing you missed there is the Warriors chose to sign a washed up Peter Hiku from Warrington in the UK rather than promote CNK after Vatuvei's departure. I think that tells you a bit about how CNK was viewed at the club. He was viewed very much as a backup, NSW cup level player.
That 'washed up' Hiku played for NZ in the WC last yr.

In fact, he played for NZ in 2017 while also playing in the ESL.

The Warriors moved on a former NZ Rep on the wing, Vatuvei, to move current NZ Rep, Fusitua, to his preffered position of wing, to bring in the current NZ centre Hiku. That's good footy squad management.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Botman »

Dude doesnt know ball. It's that simple.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Rickmando »

Botman wrote: February 1, 2024, 8:44 pm Dude doesnt know ball. It's that simple.
Tells on himself more with every post.

The gymnastics being performed to spin it in his man Rick’s favour are genuinely Olympic-level.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Bluesbrother »

Botman wrote: February 1, 2024, 8:44 pm Dude doesnt know ball. It's that simple.
OK hero. The ignorance that you think the Raiders have done nothing to develop players is honestly astonishing. Sitting in an online forum like you, Matt and co should be running the club. Ok, you know everything. I'll just concede and Ricky and Don should resign because record memberships and consistently making the finals isn't good enough for our minnow club. You're right about everything and I apologise. Botman, you're a rugby league immortality.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Bluesbrother »

Matt wrote: February 1, 2024, 8:32 pm
Bluesbrother wrote: February 1, 2024, 7:57 pm
Matt wrote: February 1, 2024, 7:27 pm
Bluesbrother wrote: February 1, 2024, 5:23 pm
Matt wrote: January 31, 2024, 12:04 pm

The issue here is u see CNK as a guy who was a D to start with. Never was.

I saw a Trey Mooney stuck behind rep players (TBF past yr probably not) that got a real crack an proved what he can actually do.

As others pointed out, had to be a FB behind RTS.
If he was that good how couldn't he break into a dud Warriors side? He can play multiple positions, as you point out. Something obviously changed when he came to Canberra.
In 2017 CNK was 21 turning 22. So just out of u20s.

2017 Warriors backs:
1. RTS (c) - NZ FB
2. Vatuvei - former NZ Rep/ Lolohea former NZ Rep, current Tongan Rep/ Ayshford
3. Fusitua - NZ Rep
4. Kata - former NZ Rep, current Tongan Rep
5. Maumalo - previous Samoan Rep, current NZ Rep
6. Foran - NZ Rep
7. SJ - NZ Rep

Played all 7 games for Wahs in this season. Scored 7 tries.

CNK is 22 turning 23.
2018 Warriors backs:
1. RTS (c) - NZ FB
2. Fusitua - NZ Rep
3. Hiku - NZ Rep
4. Kata - former NZ Rep, current Tongan Rep
5. Maumalo - previous Samoan Rep, current NZ Rep
6. Green - poached from Storms winning sides
7. SJ - NZ Rep

So... why couldn't CNK break into a bad Warriors side?!?!? I wonder if it's because there were literally rep players in every backline position (Blake Green is the worst player of the lot) ???

I believe the word you are looking for is....
LAWYERED!
Matty, keep it in your pants.

The thing you missed there is the Warriors chose to sign a washed up Peter Hiku from Warrington in the UK rather than promote CNK after Vatuvei's departure. I think that tells you a bit about how CNK was viewed at the club. He was viewed very much as a backup, NSW cup level player.
That 'washed up' Hiku played for NZ in the WC last yr.

In fact, he played for NZ in 2017 while also playing in the ESL.

The Warriors moved on a former NZ Rep on the wing, Vatuvei, to move current NZ Rep, Fusitua, to his preffered position of wing, to bring in the current NZ centre Hiku. That's good footy squad management.
I like Hiku as a player but he certainly isn't a world beater. You haven't answered the question. Why would you sign over the top of CNK if he was such a gun? The Warriors quite obviously didn't see him as a first grader. The Raiders saw an opportunity, put him in the right environment, nurtured him, and he ended up a grand final fullback within 12 months. The proof is in the pudding, son.
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Matt
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Matt »

Bluesbrother wrote: February 2, 2024, 7:36 am
Matt wrote: February 1, 2024, 8:32 pm
Bluesbrother wrote: February 1, 2024, 7:57 pm
Matt wrote: February 1, 2024, 7:27 pm
Bluesbrother wrote: February 1, 2024, 5:23 pm

If he was that good how couldn't he break into a dud Warriors side? He can play multiple positions, as you point out. Something obviously changed when he came to Canberra.
In 2017 CNK was 21 turning 22. So just out of u20s.

2017 Warriors backs:
1. RTS (c) - NZ FB
2. Vatuvei - former NZ Rep/ Lolohea former NZ Rep, current Tongan Rep/ Ayshford
3. Fusitua - NZ Rep
4. Kata - former NZ Rep, current Tongan Rep
5. Maumalo - previous Samoan Rep, current NZ Rep
6. Foran - NZ Rep
7. SJ - NZ Rep

Played all 7 games for Wahs in this season. Scored 7 tries.

CNK is 22 turning 23.
2018 Warriors backs:
1. RTS (c) - NZ FB
2. Fusitua - NZ Rep
3. Hiku - NZ Rep
4. Kata - former NZ Rep, current Tongan Rep
5. Maumalo - previous Samoan Rep, current NZ Rep
6. Green - poached from Storms winning sides
7. SJ - NZ Rep

So... why couldn't CNK break into a bad Warriors side?!?!? I wonder if it's because there were literally rep players in every backline position (Blake Green is the worst player of the lot) ???

I believe the word you are looking for is....
LAWYERED!
Matty, keep it in your pants.

The thing you missed there is the Warriors chose to sign a washed up Peter Hiku from Warrington in the UK rather than promote CNK after Vatuvei's departure. I think that tells you a bit about how CNK was viewed at the club. He was viewed very much as a backup, NSW cup level player.
That 'washed up' Hiku played for NZ in the WC last yr.

In fact, he played for NZ in 2017 while also playing in the ESL.

The Warriors moved on a former NZ Rep on the wing, Vatuvei, to move current NZ Rep, Fusitua, to his preffered position of wing, to bring in the current NZ centre Hiku. That's good footy squad management.
I like Hiku as a player but he certainly isn't a world beater. You haven't answered the question. Why would you sign over the top of CNK if he was such a gun? The Warriors quite obviously didn't see him as a first grader. The Raiders saw an opportunity, put him in the right environment, nurtured him, and he ended up a grand final fullback within 12 months. The proof is in the pudding, son.
Because if you have an option of buying a proven international player over a yet unproven rookie you take it. IE. Raiders bought Smithies, even though Puru is there - yes positions are different, theory is the same. Esp, when your clubs philosophy is nationally focused, so even more so if its an NZ international, like the Warriors is.

If we could sign Walsh or Ponga today, knowing they will play ahead of Savage or Stewart would you do it? QLD Rep vs talented Jr?
Would you sign SJ or DCE, knowing Weekes or Strange have to sit? NZ or Aussie Rep vs talented Jr?

They signed RTS in 2016, the final yr of CNK in 20s. They knew he was good and coming through, but you buy the best FB in the game over everyone. It also gives them a chance to learn behind the best.

CNKs alternate spots were filled by internationals. As a Jr you either learn and bide your time, or look for another opportunity. He sat for 2yrs, we sent and SOS call at the 11th hr in 2019, and he decided it was time to chose the latter, and became an international in his own right in that yr; playing with former teammates Foran (yr before), SJ, Maumalo and RTS. CNK played centre, taking Hiku's spot after starring in our GF run.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by The Nickman »

Bluesbrother wrote:
Botman wrote: February 1, 2024, 8:44 pm Dude doesnt know ball. It's that simple.
OK hero. The ignorance that you think the Raiders have done nothing to develop players is honestly astonishing. Sitting in an online forum like you, Matt and co should be running the club. Ok, you know everything. I'll just concede and Ricky and Don should resign because record memberships and consistently making the finals isn't good enough for our minnow club. You're right about everything and I apologise. Botman, you're a rugby league immortality.
Ohhhhh, Mick Black.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Botman »

The Nickman wrote: February 2, 2024, 8:03 am
Bluesbrother wrote:
Botman wrote: February 1, 2024, 8:44 pm Dude doesnt know ball. It's that simple.
OK hero. The ignorance that you think the Raiders have done nothing to develop players is honestly astonishing. Sitting in an online forum like you, Matt and co should be running the club. Ok, you know everything. I'll just concede and Ricky and Don should resign because record memberships and consistently making the finals isn't good enough for our minnow club. You're right about everything and I apologise. Botman, you're a rugby league immortality.
Ohhhhh, Mick Black.
:lol: :lol:
Classic Mick Black
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by magoo »

Botman wrote: January 31, 2024, 10:51 am Imagine having a coach looking at what is going on in a game, and making an in game, real time adjustment to try and change the course of the game and the outcome.
Couldnt be us.
" All men make mistakes, but a good man yields when he knows his course is wrong, and repairs the evil. The only crime is pride."
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Canberra Milk »

thevikingclap on ig wrote: January 23, 2024, 6:39 am Only thing with X Savage on the wing with C Stewart at Fullback is the risk of them both being dominated when working it out of our own end.
They can just run around the kick return defence, like they did in Cup. Then they don't need to work it out 😃
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Matt »

Canberra Milk wrote: February 2, 2024, 12:37 pm
thevikingclap on ig wrote: January 23, 2024, 6:39 am Only thing with X Savage on the wing with C Stewart at Fullback is the risk of them both being dominated when working it out of our own end.
They can just run around the kick return defence, like they did in Cup. Then they don't need to work it out 😃
^^^ Someone send this to Ricky. I think we have our 1st tactic for 2024. Its right up his alley too, coz he can use it 20+ times a game, no matter its effectiveness.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Ruben Daley »

Bluesbrother wrote: February 1, 2024, 5:18 pm
Ruben Daley wrote: January 31, 2024, 2:00 pm Blues Brother, I’m sympathetic to your point that some fans don’t give enough credit to the coaching staff for the achievements over recent years. However, I don’t think it’s correct to say Ricky improved players. His best attribute with the players that have done well is to give them the opportunity.

Austin, the Poms, CNK, Horse, Hudson, Timoko etc. all performed well because Ricky gave them a jersey. But I don’t think we can credit Ricky for any of the specific skills those guys brought to the team because they all had them prior to joining us. Often, those guys are/were actually stunted by the structures (or lack of) the club employed.

There are also very few examples of players coming here and adding a new string to their bow.

The other thing about Ricky is the number of players who he hasn’t given a decent go to.

I think a few of us are really worried about how he’ll handle Mooney, Puru, Savage etc.
Fair call. It's hard to say who got what skills from where. The Raiders last 10 years has massively improved the club as a whole is my main point. On the field we now boast some legitimate representative stars and off the field we are a much greater presence in the community with a bigger profile than we had in the 20 years prior.

In the case of Hudson, Horse and Timoko it's hard to argue they haven't been developed and improved in our system though? Whether that's Ricky himself or other coaching staff. They have become representative players through progressing through our system.
Totally agree. The club has improved on all measurable factors during that time, which is often overlooked by fans. To be fair, it's because the frustrations with the (absence of an) attacking plan, objectively terrible use of the bench, and poor selections cloud everything. They're all things that we can reasonably expect to be a whole lot better and can reasonably expect to have as well as the other improvements you observed.

Also, I agree with your point about Hiku and CNK. Hiku is a good player but has never been good enough to warrant holding out a junior with a high ceiling. I think that's even more true in a backline of veteran rep players where you have the luxury of bringing in a rookie more easily. We're not talking about a situation where you have to let Nicho Hynes go because you have Hughes/Papenhuyzen in his spot. I just think NZ underestimated CNK's potential and McFadden didn't. The club should get credit for that. But again, with every positive, there is a negative just around the corner. In this case, as others have said, it was the pain of watching CNK ball-play so well last year when most of us assumed he didn't have it in his bag, only to realise it was probably more a result of coaching.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Beejay »

Bluesbrother wrote: February 2, 2024, 7:11 am
Botman wrote: February 1, 2024, 8:44 pm Dude doesnt know ball. It's that simple.
OK hero. The ignorance that you think the Raiders have done nothing to develop players is honestly astonishing. Sitting in an online forum like you, Matt and co should be running the club. Ok, you know everything. I'll just concede and Ricky and Don should resign because record memberships and consistently making the finals isn't good enough for our minnow club. You're right about everything and I apologise. Botman, you're a rugby league immortality.
Most blokes on this forum haven’t played above U14’s. Let alone coached or played in grade level RL. But they’re all passionate fans who watch a lot of Rugby League. Doesn’t mean they know what they are talking about, but most really think they know.

Don’t take it to heart.
It’s the internet.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Matt »

Beejay wrote: February 2, 2024, 6:32 pm
Bluesbrother wrote: February 2, 2024, 7:11 am
Botman wrote: February 1, 2024, 8:44 pm Dude doesnt know ball. It's that simple.
OK hero. The ignorance that you think the Raiders have done nothing to develop players is honestly astonishing. Sitting in an online forum like you, Matt and co should be running the club. Ok, you know everything. I'll just concede and Ricky and Don should resign because record memberships and consistently making the finals isn't good enough for our minnow club. You're right about everything and I apologise. Botman, you're a rugby league immortality.
Most blokes on this forum haven’t played above U14’s. Let alone coached or played in grade level RL. But they’re all passionate fans who watch a lot of Rugby League. Doesn’t mean they know what they are talking about, but most really think they know.

Don’t take it to heart.
It’s the internet.
You just needed a "champ" in here and you've hit all the cliches.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Finchy »

To be fair to the good people of this forum though, I think many have higher than average footy intelligence compared to the average fan. Read Facebook group comments or other fan forums. There’s a difference
Ata Mariota’s #1 fan. Bless his cotton socks.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Billy Walker »

Finchy wrote: February 2, 2024, 7:38 pm To be fair to the good people of this forum though, I think many have higher than average footy intelligence compared to the average fan. Read Facebook group comments or other fan forums. There’s a difference
Whatever helps you sleep at night Finchy
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Matt »

Finchy wrote: February 2, 2024, 7:38 pm To be fair to the good people of this forum though, I think many have higher than average footy intelligence compared to the average fan. Read Facebook group comments or other fan forums. There’s a difference
I'll 2nd it. Esp as someone who helped moderate our FB page for a while
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Finchy »

Billy Walker wrote: February 2, 2024, 7:49 pm
Finchy wrote: February 2, 2024, 7:38 pm To be fair to the good people of this forum though, I think many have higher than average footy intelligence compared to the average fan. Read Facebook group comments or other fan forums. There’s a difference
Whatever helps you sleep at night Finchy
I said “many” Billy. Not all. Make of that what you will
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by Botman »

the idea that you have to have experience at the highest level of a sport to have to know what you're talking about is just silly.

I love the NFL, it's a very technical game and one i did not grow up playing or watching so nothing about learning that game was or is natural. But the people i've learnt the most from about that game are guys like Bill Barnwell, Ben Solak, Steven Ruiz, Nora Princiatti, Chris Wessling, Mina Kimes and Robert Mays... none of which played the game at any reasonable level. They're not always right, they have bad takes too, but you listen to those people and you'll get a really sound understanding of the game what is driving/pushing the game forward in terms of innovation.

You don't need to play a sport at a high level to understand it and comment on if from a place of knowledge. Former players will always say you have to but that's how you get Andrew Johns and Brad Fitler half cut on a national telecast giving you "analysis" based on their same game multis.

It's sport, its really not rocket science.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

Post by bonehead »

Botman wrote:the idea that you have to have experience at the highest level of a sport to have to know what you're talking about is just silly.

I love the NFL, it's a very technical game and one i did not grow up playing or watching so nothing about learning that game was or is natural. But the people i've learnt the most from about that game are guys like Bill Barnwell, Ben Solak, Steven Ruiz, Nora Princiatti, Chris Wessling, Mina Kimes and Robert Mays... none of which played the game at any reasonable level. They're not always right, they have bad takes too, but you listen to those people and you'll get a really sound understanding of the game what is driving/pushing the game forward in terms of innovation.

You don't need to play a sport at a high level to understand it and comment on if from a place of knowledge. Former players will always say you have to but that's how you get Andrew Johns and Brad Fitler half cut on a national telecast giving you "analysis" based on their same game multis.

It's sport, its really not rocket science.
it's ridiculous, I've been watching league since before any current player was born, might have some idea

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