POLL: Strongest 2024 line up: Savage re-vote

[Beejay]

the idea that you have to have experience at the highest level of a sport to have to know what you're talking about is just silly.

I love the NFL, it's a very technical game and one i did not grow up playing or watching so nothing about learning that game was or is natural. But the people i've learnt the most from about that game are guys like Bill Barnwell, Ben Solak, Steven Ruiz, Nora Princiatti, Chris Wessling, Mina Kimes and Robert Mays... none of which played the game at any reasonable level. They're not always right, they have bad takes too, but you listen to those people and you'll get a really sound understanding of the game what is driving/pushing the game forward in terms of innovation.

You don't need to play a sport at a high level to understand it and comment on if from a place of knowledge. Former players will always say you have to but that's how you get Andrew Johns and Brad Fitler half cut on a national telecast giving you "analysis" based on their same game multis.

It's sport, its really not rocket science.

Very Dunning-Kruger vibes.
But no hate. This is the place for it.

[Beejay]

To be fair to the good people of this forum though, I think many have higher than average footy intelligence compared to the average fan. Read Facebook group comments or other fan forums. There’s a difference

I'll 2nd it. Esp as someone who helped moderate our FB page for a while

Agreed.
Should advertise it on the web page.
“Higher average footy intelligence, compared to the average Facebook fan”.

[Botman]

the idea that you have to have experience at the highest level of a sport to have to know what you're talking about is just silly.

I love the NFL, it's a very technical game and one i did not grow up playing or watching so nothing about learning that game was or is natural. But the people i've learnt the most from about that game are guys like Bill Barnwell, Ben Solak, Steven Ruiz, Nora Princiatti, Chris Wessling, Mina Kimes and Robert Mays... none of which played the game at any reasonable level. They're not always right, they have bad takes too, but you listen to those people and you'll get a really sound understanding of the game what is driving/pushing the game forward in terms of innovation.

You don't need to play a sport at a high level to understand it and comment on if from a place of knowledge. Former players will always say you have to but that's how you get Andrew Johns and Brad Fitler half cut on a national telecast giving you "analysis" based on their same game multis.

It's sport, its really not rocket science.

Very Dunning-Kruger vibes.
But no hate. This is the place for it.

No problems if you feel that way.
But I'd question why you bother to be here in this community at all?
If you dont think your thoughts or opinions have any value or are worthy of being stated, why would you bother?

[Beejay]

the idea that you have to have experience at the highest level of a sport to have to know what you're talking about is just silly.

I love the NFL, it's a very technical game and one i did not grow up playing or watching so nothing about learning that game was or is natural. But the people i've learnt the most from about that game are guys like Bill Barnwell, Ben Solak, Steven Ruiz, Nora Princiatti, Chris Wessling, Mina Kimes and Robert Mays... none of which played the game at any reasonable level. They're not always right, they have bad takes too, but you listen to those people and you'll get a really sound understanding of the game what is driving/pushing the game forward in terms of innovation.

You don't need to play a sport at a high level to understand it and comment on if from a place of knowledge. Former players will always say you have to but that's how you get Andrew Johns and Brad Fitler half cut on a national telecast giving you "analysis" based on their same game multis.

It's sport, its really not rocket science.

Very Dunning-Kruger vibes.
But no hate. This is the place for it.

No problems if you feel that way.
But I'd question why you bother to be here in this community at all?
If you dont think your thoughts or opinions have any value or are worthy of being stated, why would you bother?

Looks like you have a real gross misunderstanding about what I’m saying and why I said it.

[Botman]

Looks like you have a real gross misunderstanding about what I’m saying and why I said it.

Fair enough. My apologies then!

[BadnMean]

the idea that you have to have experience at the highest level of a sport to have to know what you're talking about is just silly.

I love the NFL, it's a very technical game and one i did not grow up playing or watching so nothing about learning that game was or is natural. But the people i've learnt the most from about that game are guys like Bill Barnwell, Ben Solak, Steven Ruiz, Nora Princiatti, Chris Wessling, Mina Kimes and Robert Mays... none of which played the game at any reasonable level. They're not always right, they have bad takes too, but you listen to those people and you'll get a really sound understanding of the game what is driving/pushing the game forward in terms of innovation.

You don't need to play a sport at a high level to understand it and comment on if from a place of knowledge. Former players will always say you have to but that's how you get Andrew Johns and Brad Fitler half cut on a national telecast giving you "analysis" based on their same game multis.

It's sport, its really not rocket science.

Very Dunning-Kruger vibes.
But no hate. This is the place for it.

There are dozens of winning coaches across multiple sports (Arrigio Sacchi and Parreira from football come to mind) with brilliant careers who never played professionally.

There's a million examples of top players who were abysmal coaches.

Fans run the full spectrum from guys who played a fair bit at reasonable levels to guys who never laced one up. Either can make an insightful analysis of a player or tactic.

[Billy Walker]

the idea that you have to have experience at the highest level of a sport to have to know what you're talking about is just silly.

I love the NFL, it's a very technical game and one i did not grow up playing or watching so nothing about learning that game was or is natural. But the people i've learnt the most from about that game are guys like Bill Barnwell, Ben Solak, Steven Ruiz, Nora Princiatti, Chris Wessling, Mina Kimes and Robert Mays... none of which played the game at any reasonable level. They're not always right, they have bad takes too, but you listen to those people and you'll get a really sound understanding of the game what is driving/pushing the game forward in terms of innovation.

You don't need to play a sport at a high level to understand it and comment on if from a place of knowledge. Former players will always say you have to but that's how you get Andrew Johns and Brad Fitler half cut on a national telecast giving you "analysis" based on their same game multis.

It's sport, its really not rocket science.

Very Dunning-Kruger vibes.
But no hate. This is the place for it.

Very Dunning-Kruger indeed.

[Raoul Duke]

Last year when i questioned if Savage had a future at this club and wondered aloud if his style of player would be a fit for Stuart, Rickheads told me he was just unlucky with injury, Kris is playing well (LOL boy that aged like milk) he just needs to train hard and bash the door down in NSW Cup and he'll be fine, Stuart loves him otherwise he wouldnt have re-signed him...

I dont know if Savage has an NRL future, there is a lot to like about his game and some holes that need to be worked through. But the more i hear from Stuart the more convinced i am that if he does have an NRL future, it wont be here.

It looks to me that Savage just isn't mentally engaged in the game and doesn't work hard enough. He switches off far too often, has been soft in tackles and is a quiet fullback. The pro savage crew/anti Ricky crew tend to park the fact that Savage was given the fullback spot over CNK clearly before he was ready, was given a 3 year contract, was trained at the 1 to start the season with no backup last year yet is not liked by Stuart because he isn't playing thus he is not liked apparently.
To me it looks like a player that they see plenty of natural ability but needs to mentally and physically ready for NRL. He is being kept to try to get him there but so far hasn't managed to to get there. It also doesn't just look like Stuart either, the reserve grade coach has at times seemed to be frustrated with Savage also not having his head in the game and taking easy options.
Either way my guess is he will probably start at fullback this year and this will be his final shot because a drop in performance will facilitate Chevy coming in. Looks like a sink or swim moment for savage.

That’s a pretty good take and I think probably quite accurate.

I think the problem is that Stick and co have viewed the last few seasons as though we had a chance when it was clear that the premiership window had already closed and we needed to get younger and faster. We should have been giving Savage valuable time in first grade last year rather than sticking with a makeshift fullback to limp into the finals despite having a very favourable draw. I'd give up inching past the likes of the Tigers to be half a season further down the path of knowing what Savage is as a first grader.

But Stick is just not a future focused coach. He values experience too heavily, is sentimental about playing group decisions and seems to be loathed to throw guys into the fire to see what they are really made of. Instead we wheeled out Croker again last year, played the guy who should be at centre out of position, while playing Savage on the wing in reserve grade - Absolutely ridiculous.

[Dylan’s Raiders]

I’ve said this before but Savage last year was a tricky one. He started 2023 as our first choice fullback but unfortunately broke his jaw and by the time he was fit, Seb Kris was improving game after game at fullback and we went on a winning streak.

A few weeks later and we re-sign Chevy for 4 years and put him at fullback which is the right thing to do. We lose a few first grade games and Kris plateaus so we could have brought savage in but we then did his hamstring. In total, I think Savage only played 4 consecutive games in a row last year.

Point is, I don’t think it’s a case of him being totally out of favour I think it was timing. He did also have training issues which the club has hinted at included in the big breakfast interview but they re-signed him until the end of 2025 for a reason.

I expect him to be in our 17 come round 1

[Billy Walker]

Last year when i questioned if Savage had a future at this club and wondered aloud if his style of player would be a fit for Stuart, Rickheads told me he was just unlucky with injury, Kris is playing well (LOL boy that aged like milk) he just needs to train hard and bash the door down in NSW Cup and he'll be fine, Stuart loves him otherwise he wouldnt have re-signed him...

I dont know if Savage has an NRL future, there is a lot to like about his game and some holes that need to be worked through. But the more i hear from Stuart the more convinced i am that if he does have an NRL future, it wont be here.

It looks to me that Savage just isn't mentally engaged in the game and doesn't work hard enough. He switches off far too often, has been soft in tackles and is a quiet fullback. The pro savage crew/anti Ricky crew tend to park the fact that Savage was given the fullback spot over CNK clearly before he was ready, was given a 3 year contract, was trained at the 1 to start the season with no backup last year yet is not liked by Stuart because he isn't playing thus he is not liked apparently.
To me it looks like a player that they see plenty of natural ability but needs to mentally and physically ready for NRL. He is being kept to try to get him there but so far hasn't managed to to get there. It also doesn't just look like Stuart either, the reserve grade coach has at times seemed to be frustrated with Savage also not having his head in the game and taking easy options.
Either way my guess is he will probably start at fullback this year and this will be his final shot because a drop in performance will facilitate Chevy coming in. Looks like a sink or swim moment for savage.

That’s a pretty good take and I think probably quite accurate.

I think the problem is that Stick and co have viewed the last few seasons as though we had a chance when it was clear that the premiership window had already closed and we needed to get younger and faster. We should have been giving Savage valuable time in first grade last year rather than sticking with a makeshift fullback to limp into the finals despite having a very favourable draw. I'd give up inching past the likes of the Tigers to be half a season further down the path of knowing what Savage is as a first grader.

But Stick is just not a future focused coach. He values experience too heavily, is sentimental about playing group decisions and seems to be loathed to throw guys into the fire to see what they are really made of. Instead we wheeled out Croker again last year, played the guy who should be at centre out of position, while playing Savage on the wing in reserve grade - Absolutely ridiculous.

Can’t disagree with anything you’ve said.

[Raidernation]

Last year when i questioned if Savage had a future at this club and wondered aloud if his style of player would be a fit for Stuart, Rickheads told me he was just unlucky with injury, Kris is playing well (LOL boy that aged like milk) he just needs to train hard and bash the door down in NSW Cup and he'll be fine, Stuart loves him otherwise he wouldnt have re-signed him...

I dont know if Savage has an NRL future, there is a lot to like about his game and some holes that need to be worked through. But the more i hear from Stuart the more convinced i am that if he does have an NRL future, it wont be here.

It looks to me that Savage just isn't mentally engaged in the game and doesn't work hard enough. He switches off far too often, has been soft in tackles and is a quiet fullback. The pro savage crew/anti Ricky crew tend to park the fact that Savage was given the fullback spot over CNK clearly before he was ready, was given a 3 year contract, was trained at the 1 to start the season with no backup last year yet is not liked by Stuart because he isn't playing thus he is not liked apparently.
To me it looks like a player that they see plenty of natural ability but needs to mentally and physically ready for NRL. He is being kept to try to get him there but so far hasn't managed to to get there. It also doesn't just look like Stuart either, the reserve grade coach has at times seemed to be frustrated with Savage also not having his head in the game and taking easy options.
Either way my guess is he will probably start at fullback this year and this will be his final shot because a drop in performance will facilitate Chevy coming in. Looks like a sink or swim moment for savage.

That’s a pretty good take and I think probably quite accurate.

I think the problem is that Stick and co have viewed the last few seasons as though we had a chance when it was clear that the premiership window had already closed and we needed to get younger and faster. We should have been giving Savage valuable time in first grade last year rather than sticking with a makeshift fullback to limp into the finals despite having a very favourable draw. I'd give up inching past the likes of the Tigers to be half a season further down the path of knowing what Savage is as a first grader.

But Stick is just not a future focused coach. He values experience too heavily, is sentimental about playing group decisions and seems to be loathed to throw guys into the fire to see what they are really made of. Instead we wheeled out Croker again last year, played the guy who should be at centre out of position, while playing Savage on the wing in reserve grade - Absolutely ridiculous.

Can’t disagree with anything you’ve said.

i dont think he values experience too heavily but more young players need to be better than the ones they are replacing. The croker one is a little misleading because by the sounds of it, it was more the playing group that wanted him back and HSS was given a pretty good crack at getting his position but wasn't good enough even though he had speed and was young.
Im glad were not future focused because thats what the tigers have been for a long time and thats what we were for a long time and we never looked like competing in the finals and the tigers havnt made the finals. Being better than the one who holds the spot is clearly the way to go imo even if you lose some talents along the way. I accept it isnt linear, sometimes the playing group wants something, sometimes contracts get in the way of decision making but generally you will end up in a better position.
We arnt a smart footy team though and really havnt been for a long time weather we bring players in or develop them we just havnt quite figured it out. We have developed a team that can match it with toughness and effort but we do lack some coaching here which needs to be addressed.
I really do think that maybe a wayne bennet for a day a week could help if you could get him maybe. the coaching structure is lacking though.

[Billy Walker]

It looks to me that Savage just isn't mentally engaged in the game and doesn't work hard enough. He switches off far too often, has been soft in tackles and is a quiet fullback. The pro savage crew/anti Ricky crew tend to park the fact that Savage was given the fullback spot over CNK clearly before he was ready, was given a 3 year contract, was trained at the 1 to start the season with no backup last year yet is not liked by Stuart because he isn't playing thus he is not liked apparently.
To me it looks like a player that they see plenty of natural ability but needs to mentally and physically ready for NRL. He is being kept to try to get him there but so far hasn't managed to to get there. It also doesn't just look like Stuart either, the reserve grade coach has at times seemed to be frustrated with Savage also not having his head in the game and taking easy options.
Either way my guess is he will probably start at fullback this year and this will be his final shot because a drop in performance will facilitate Chevy coming in. Looks like a sink or swim moment for savage.

That’s a pretty good take and I think probably quite accurate.

I think the problem is that Stick and co have viewed the last few seasons as though we had a chance when it was clear that the premiership window had already closed and we needed to get younger and faster. We should have been giving Savage valuable time in first grade last year rather than sticking with a makeshift fullback to limp into the finals despite having a very favourable draw. I'd give up inching past the likes of the Tigers to be half a season further down the path of knowing what Savage is as a first grader.

But Stick is just not a future focused coach. He values experience too heavily, is sentimental about playing group decisions and seems to be loathed to throw guys into the fire to see what they are really made of. Instead we wheeled out Croker again last year, played the guy who should be at centre out of position, while playing Savage on the wing in reserve grade - Absolutely ridiculous.

Can’t disagree with anything you’ve said.

i dont think he values experience too heavily but more young players need to be better than the ones they are replacing. The croker one is a little misleading because by the sounds of it, it was more the playing group that wanted him back and HSS was given a pretty good crack at getting his position but wasn't good enough even though he had speed and was young.
Im glad were not future focused because thats what the tigers have been for a long time and thats what we were for a long time and we never looked like competing in the finals and the tigers havnt made the finals. Being better than the one who holds the spot is clearly the way to go imo even if you lose some talents along the way. I accept it isnt linear, sometimes the playing group wants something, sometimes contracts get in the way of decision making but generally you will end up in a better position.
We arnt a smart footy team though and really havnt been for a long time weather we bring players in or develop them we just havnt quite figured it out. We have developed a team that can match it with toughness and effort but we do lack some coaching here which needs to be addressed.
I really do think that maybe a wayne bennet for a day a week could help if you could get him maybe. the coaching structure is lacking though.

I can’t agree with that sorry. Seb Kris has filled the fullback role and done a better job than most give him credit for. Rapa has spent time in the 1 jumper and put in fine performances. Both those guys are more experienced, and at this point better fullbacks than Stewart who has never actually had a run in the 1 jumper at first grade level.

If the Raiders are going to go anywhere we need Stewart or Savage killing it in the 1 jumper and neither can do that unless the coach takes a punt on youth and invests in the future.

As romantic as all the farewell tour was last year, we would be better off now if Savage or one of our other young guys were given the games where Croker averaged 50 running meters and a handful of missed tackles.

We have lots of good players but are short on great players. We won’t uncover the great ones if we keep picking the good ones. But sometimes it feels like we are happy with good players and good results. Make the 8 and call it a good year.

[Ruben Daley]

That’s a pretty good take and I think probably quite accurate.

I think the problem is that Stick and co have viewed the last few seasons as though we had a chance when it was clear that the premiership window had already closed and we needed to get younger and faster. We should have been giving Savage valuable time in first grade last year rather than sticking with a makeshift fullback to limp into the finals despite having a very favourable draw. I'd give up inching past the likes of the Tigers to be half a season further down the path of knowing what Savage is as a first grader.

But Stick is just not a future focused coach. He values experience too heavily, is sentimental about playing group decisions and seems to be loathed to throw guys into the fire to see what they are really made of. Instead we wheeled out Croker again last year, played the guy who should be at centre out of position, while playing Savage on the wing in reserve grade - Absolutely ridiculous.

Can’t disagree with anything you’ve said.

i dont think he values experience too heavily but more young players need to be better than the ones they are replacing. The croker one is a little misleading because by the sounds of it, it was more the playing group that wanted him back and HSS was given a pretty good crack at getting his position but wasn't good enough even though he had speed and was young.
Im glad were not future focused because thats what the tigers have been for a long time and thats what we were for a long time and we never looked like competing in the finals and the tigers havnt made the finals. Being better than the one who holds the spot is clearly the way to go imo even if you lose some talents along the way. I accept it isnt linear, sometimes the playing group wants something, sometimes contracts get in the way of decision making but generally you will end up in a better position.
We arnt a smart footy team though and really havnt been for a long time weather we bring players in or develop them we just havnt quite figured it out. We have developed a team that can match it with toughness and effort but we do lack some coaching here which needs to be addressed.
I really do think that maybe a wayne bennet for a day a week could help if you could get him maybe. the coaching structure is lacking though.

I can’t agree with that sorry. Seb Kris has filled the fullback role and done a better job than most give him credit for. Rapa has spent time in the 1 jumper and put in fine performances. Both those guys are more experienced, and at this point better fullbacks than Stewart who has never actually had a run in the 1 jumper at first grade level.

If the Raiders are going to go anywhere we need Stewart or Savage killing it in the 1 jumper and neither can do that unless the coach takes a punt on youth and invests in the future.

As romantic as all the farewell tour was last year, we would be better off now if Savage or one of our other young guys were given the games where Croker averaged 50 running meters and a handful of missed tackles.

We have lots of good players but are short on great players. We won’t uncover the great ones if we keep picking the good ones. But sometimes it feels like we are happy with good players and good results. Make the 8 and call it a good year.

Agreed. I think there was a happy medium in there where Croker could've come back for those first couple of games where we did well but then the remaining games were given to a youngster.

We'll see this year whether high-ceiling guys like Mooney, Puru, Savage get picked over 'good' players like Guler, Saulo, Hoppa. My hope is that Ricky's comments about going with youth mean he's finally going to go with the first group but I'm not confident. I think it's more likely to mean he's committed to giving Strange and Chevy time over the course of the season, and that is enough youth for his liking.

I think we have enough strong established guys to accommodate quite a few youngster being given decent, extended periods in the side.

[Billy Walker]

I think the problem is that Stick and co have viewed the last few seasons as though we had a chance when it was clear that the premiership window had already closed and we needed to get younger and faster. We should have been giving Savage valuable time in first grade last year rather than sticking with a makeshift fullback to limp into the finals despite having a very favourable draw. I'd give up inching past the likes of the Tigers to be half a season further down the path of knowing what Savage is as a first grader.

But Stick is just not a future focused coach. He values experience too heavily, is sentimental about playing group decisions and seems to be loathed to throw guys into the fire to see what they are really made of. Instead we wheeled out Croker again last year, played the guy who should be at centre out of position, while playing Savage on the wing in reserve grade - Absolutely ridiculous.

Can’t disagree with anything you’ve said.

i dont think he values experience too heavily but more young players need to be better than the ones they are replacing. The croker one is a little misleading because by the sounds of it, it was more the playing group that wanted him back and HSS was given a pretty good crack at getting his position but wasn't good enough even though he had speed and was young.
Im glad were not future focused because thats what the tigers have been for a long time and thats what we were for a long time and we never looked like competing in the finals and the tigers havnt made the finals. Being better than the one who holds the spot is clearly the way to go imo even if you lose some talents along the way. I accept it isnt linear, sometimes the playing group wants something, sometimes contracts get in the way of decision making but generally you will end up in a better position.
We arnt a smart footy team though and really havnt been for a long time weather we bring players in or develop them we just havnt quite figured it out. We have developed a team that can match it with toughness and effort but we do lack some coaching here which needs to be addressed.
I really do think that maybe a wayne bennet for a day a week could help if you could get him maybe. the coaching structure is lacking though.

I can’t agree with that sorry. Seb Kris has filled the fullback role and done a better job than most give him credit for. Rapa has spent time in the 1 jumper and put in fine performances. Both those guys are more experienced, and at this point better fullbacks than Stewart who has never actually had a run in the 1 jumper at first grade level.

If the Raiders are going to go anywhere we need Stewart or Savage killing it in the 1 jumper and neither can do that unless the coach takes a punt on youth and invests in the future.

As romantic as all the farewell tour was last year, we would be better off now if Savage or one of our other young guys were given the games where Croker averaged 50 running meters and a handful of missed tackles.

We have lots of good players but are short on great players. We won’t uncover the great ones if we keep picking the good ones. But sometimes it feels like we are happy with good players and good results. Make the 8 and call it a good year.

Agreed. I think there was a happy medium in there where Croker could've come back for those first couple of games where we did well but then the remaining games were given to a youngster.

We'll see this year whether high-ceiling guys like Mooney, Puru, Savage get picked over 'good' players like Guler, Saulo, Hoppa. My hope is that Ricky's comments about going with youth mean he's finally going to go with the first group but I'm not confident. I think it's more likely to mean he's committed to giving Strange and Chevy time over the course of the season, and that is enough youth for his liking.

I think we have enough strong established guys to accommodate quite a few youngster being given decent, extended periods in the side.

We live in hope, but I fear you might be right about the approach he will take.

[papabear]

the idea that you have to have experience at the highest level of a sport to have to know what you're talking about is just silly.

I love the NFL, it's a very technical game and one i did not grow up playing or watching so nothing about learning that game was or is natural. But the people i've learnt the most from about that game are guys like Bill Barnwell, Ben Solak, Steven Ruiz, Nora Princiatti, Chris Wessling, Mina Kimes and Robert Mays... none of which played the game at any reasonable level. They're not always right, they have bad takes too, but you listen to those people and you'll get a really sound understanding of the game what is driving/pushing the game forward in terms of innovation.

You don't need to play a sport at a high level to understand it and comment on if from a place of knowledge. Former players will always say you have to but that's how you get Andrew Johns and Brad Fitler half cut on a national telecast giving you "analysis" based on their same game multis.

It's sport, its really not rocket science.

Very Dunning-Kruger vibes.
But no hate. This is the place for it.

There are dozens of winning coaches across multiple sports (Arrigio Sacchi and Parreira from football come to mind) with brilliant careers who never played professionally.

There's a million examples of top players who were abysmal coaches.

Fans run the full spectrum from guys who played a fair bit at reasonable levels to guys who never laced one up. Either can make an insightful analysis of a player or tactic.

Not Dunning-kruger at all. TBH I very much concur with botman's original point.

Just different skill sets.

Playing sport at a very high level requires (first three are pretty interchangeable pending the sport):-
1 - To be an absolute unit of an athlete.
2 - To have the very best skill set possible for that particular sport / position.
3 - To be able to try **** off hard (ties into conditioning but still)
Those three things are way above everything else.

then you have a drop off.

Then you have
4 - understanding game plan tactics for your side.
5 - making good choices all the time
6 - understanding what the other side are doing.
7 - communicating with your team mates.

A commentator / journalist wants the following skills
1 - communicating a particular point to their particular audience so that point is received as intended
2 - understanding what both sides are trying to do.

these are more comparable to that of the coaching staff then the playing staff...

[Bluesbrother]

I think the problem is that Stick and co have viewed the last few seasons as though we had a chance when it was clear that the premiership window had already closed and we needed to get younger and faster. We should have been giving Savage valuable time in first grade last year rather than sticking with a makeshift fullback to limp into the finals despite having a very favourable draw. I'd give up inching past the likes of the Tigers to be half a season further down the path of knowing what Savage is as a first grader.

But Stick is just not a future focused coach. He values experience too heavily, is sentimental about playing group decisions and seems to be loathed to throw guys into the fire to see what they are really made of. Instead we wheeled out Croker again last year, played the guy who should be at centre out of position, while playing Savage on the wing in reserve grade - Absolutely ridiculous.

Can’t disagree with anything you’ve said.

i dont think he values experience too heavily but more young players need to be better than the ones they are replacing. The croker one is a little misleading because by the sounds of it, it was more the playing group that wanted him back and HSS was given a pretty good crack at getting his position but wasn't good enough even though he had speed and was young.
Im glad were not future focused because thats what the tigers have been for a long time and thats what we were for a long time and we never looked like competing in the finals and the tigers havnt made the finals. Being better than the one who holds the spot is clearly the way to go imo even if you lose some talents along the way. I accept it isnt linear, sometimes the playing group wants something, sometimes contracts get in the way of decision making but generally you will end up in a better position.
We arnt a smart footy team though and really havnt been for a long time weather we bring players in or develop them we just havnt quite figured it out. We have developed a team that can match it with toughness and effort but we do lack some coaching here which needs to be addressed.
I really do think that maybe a wayne bennet for a day a week could help if you could get him maybe. the coaching structure is lacking though.

I can’t agree with that sorry. Seb Kris has filled the fullback role and done a better job than most give him credit for. Rapa has spent time in the 1 jumper and put in fine performances. Both those guys are more experienced, and at this point better fullbacks than Stewart who has never actually had a run in the 1 jumper at first grade level.

If the Raiders are going to go anywhere we need Stewart or Savage killing it in the 1 jumper and neither can do that unless the coach takes a punt on youth and invests in the future.

As romantic as all the farewell tour was last year, we would be better off now if Savage or one of our other young guys were given the games where Croker averaged 50 running meters and a handful of missed tackles.

We have lots of good players but are short on great players. We won’t uncover the great ones if we keep picking the good ones. But sometimes it feels like we are happy with good players and good results. Make the 8 and call it a good year.

Agreed. I think there was a happy medium in there where Croker could've come back for those first couple of games where we did well but then the remaining games were given to a youngster.

We'll see this year whether high-ceiling guys like Mooney, Puru, Savage get picked over 'good' players like Guler, Saulo, Hoppa. My hope is that Ricky's comments about going with youth mean he's finally going to go with the first group but I'm not confident. I think it's more likely to mean he's committed to giving Strange and Chevy time over the course of the season, and that is enough youth for his liking.

I think we have enough strong established guys to accommodate quite a few youngster being given decent, extended periods in the side.

I think Saulo, Guler and Hoppa could surprise a lot of people, particularly Hoppa. All very young in their careers for thier respective positions.

[Billy Walker]

Can’t disagree with anything you’ve said.

i dont think he values experience too heavily but more young players need to be better than the ones they are replacing. The croker one is a little misleading because by the sounds of it, it was more the playing group that wanted him back and HSS was given a pretty good crack at getting his position but wasn't good enough even though he had speed and was young.
Im glad were not future focused because thats what the tigers have been for a long time and thats what we were for a long time and we never looked like competing in the finals and the tigers havnt made the finals. Being better than the one who holds the spot is clearly the way to go imo even if you lose some talents along the way. I accept it isnt linear, sometimes the playing group wants something, sometimes contracts get in the way of decision making but generally you will end up in a better position.
We arnt a smart footy team though and really havnt been for a long time weather we bring players in or develop them we just havnt quite figured it out. We have developed a team that can match it with toughness and effort but we do lack some coaching here which needs to be addressed.
I really do think that maybe a wayne bennet for a day a week could help if you could get him maybe. the coaching structure is lacking though.

I can’t agree with that sorry. Seb Kris has filled the fullback role and done a better job than most give him credit for. Rapa has spent time in the 1 jumper and put in fine performances. Both those guys are more experienced, and at this point better fullbacks than Stewart who has never actually had a run in the 1 jumper at first grade level.

If the Raiders are going to go anywhere we need Stewart or Savage killing it in the 1 jumper and neither can do that unless the coach takes a punt on youth and invests in the future.

As romantic as all the farewell tour was last year, we would be better off now if Savage or one of our other young guys were given the games where Croker averaged 50 running meters and a handful of missed tackles.

We have lots of good players but are short on great players. We won’t uncover the great ones if we keep picking the good ones. But sometimes it feels like we are happy with good players and good results. Make the 8 and call it a good year.

Agreed. I think there was a happy medium in there where Croker could've come back for those first couple of games where we did well but then the remaining games were given to a youngster.

We'll see this year whether high-ceiling guys like Mooney, Puru, Savage get picked over 'good' players like Guler, Saulo, Hoppa. My hope is that Ricky's comments about going with youth mean he's finally going to go with the first group but I'm not confident. I think it's more likely to mean he's committed to giving Strange and Chevy time over the course of the season, and that is enough youth for his liking.

I think we have enough strong established guys to accommodate quite a few youngster being given decent, extended periods in the side.

I think Saulo, Guler and Hoppa could surprise a lot of people, particularly Hoppa. All very young in their careers for thier respective positions.

Yep - I see Hoppa’s limitations but I think we will get more out of him going forward than we will from Cotric. People judge him a bit unfairly on here I think.

[julian87]

Rapana, Cotric, Savage, Asomua, Schiller are all far and away better than Hopoate.

Hoppa shouldn’t even be considered unless something drastic happens and only one of them is available. He’s a horrific defender, terrible under the high ball, doesn’t have great hands, would be one of the least agile outside backs in the comp and has an absolute stinker in him most games. He’s good rucking the ball out but that’s the only thing he has under any of the others and all his shortcomings far outweigh that. At this point the club would be best of using him to mentor NSW Cup players in working hard and what it takes to come back from adversity.

[Botman]

Rapana, Cotric, Savage, Asomua, Schiller are all far and away better than Hopoate.

Hoppa shouldn’t even be considered unless something drastic happens and only one of them is available. He’s a horrific defender, terrible under the high ball, doesn’t have great hands, would be one of the least agile outside backs in the comp and has an absolute stinker in him most games. He’s good rucking the ball out but that’s the only thing he has under any of the others and all his shortcomings far outweigh that. At this point the club would be best of using him to mentor NSW Cup players in working hard and what it takes to come back from adversity.

[Bluesbrother]

Rapana, Cotric, Savage, Asomua, Schiller are all far and away better than Hopoate.

Hoppa shouldn’t even be considered unless something drastic happens and only one of them is available. He’s a horrific defender, terrible under the high ball, doesn’t have great hands, would be one of the least agile outside backs in the comp and has an absolute stinker in him most games. He’s good rucking the ball out but that’s the only thing he has under any of the others and all his shortcomings far outweigh that. At this point the club would be best of using him to mentor NSW Cup players in working hard and what it takes to come back from adversity.

Lol far and away better - Schiller? Savage? Asomua? Get off the high horse. Hoppa is 22 years old, had several serious injuries and just came off a season where he averaged 150+ running metres a game and 3rd on our tackle breaks list. It's reasonable to think he has something to offer, not to mention some growth in him at 22 years old.

[Billy Walker]

Rapana, Cotric, Savage, Asomua, Schiller are all far and away better than Hopoate.

Hoppa shouldn’t even be considered unless something drastic happens and only one of them is available. He’s a horrific defender, terrible under the high ball, doesn’t have great hands, would be one of the least agile outside backs in the comp and has an absolute stinker in him most games. He’s good rucking the ball out but that’s the only thing he has under any of the others and all his shortcomings far outweigh that. At this point the club would be best of using him to mentor NSW Cup players in working hard and what it takes to come back from adversity.

Lol far and away better - Schiller? Savage? Asomua? Get off the high horse. Hoppa is 22 years old, had several serious injuries and just came off a season where he averaged 150+ running metres a game and 3rd on our tackle breaks list. It's reasonable to think he has something to offer, not to mention some growth in him at 22 years old.

That sort of logic won’t cut it against emotional irrationality.

[Bluesbrother]

Rapana, Cotric, Savage, Asomua, Schiller are all far and away better than Hopoate.

Hoppa shouldn’t even be considered unless something drastic happens and only one of them is available. He’s a horrific defender, terrible under the high ball, doesn’t have great hands, would be one of the least agile outside backs in the comp and has an absolute stinker in him most games. He’s good rucking the ball out but that’s the only thing he has under any of the others and all his shortcomings far outweigh that. At this point the club would be best of using him to mentor NSW Cup players in working hard and what it takes to come back from adversity.

Lol far and away better - Schiller? Savage? Asomua? Get off the high horse. Hoppa is 22 years old, had several serious injuries and just came off a season where he averaged 150+ running metres a game and 3rd on our tackle breaks list. It's reasonable to think he has something to offer, not to mention some growth in him at 22 years old.

That sort of logic won’t cut it against emotional irrationality.

Haha, certainly appears that way.

[Botman]

I'd kindly suggest that expecting improvements in the areas Hoppa needs to improve in (which all hinge on athleticism) for a soon to be 23 year old with a frankly staggering and heart breaking history of catasrophic lower leg injuries on both knees is on the very extreme scale of irrationality. I'd bet on unproven talent over physical limitations.

It's pretty hard to imagine he'll suddenly get his agilty, footwork, change of pace fluidity and top end speed back to be able to do what is required at an NRL level as a winger. Can it happen? Sure. Sports are a sand pit for miracles, but that's where he's at. He needs a miracle.

He's knees are probably paper mache at this point. And he plays like it. It's all stright line stuff, when it's north and south, he's OK. But anything that requires any movement side to side and it's like a tug boat. Not his fualt and man, its a shame. He was an outragously gifted athlete...

I mean ultimately, what is his path to being an impactful FG footballer? It's a To'o /Marzhew style of footballer. Anyone willing to tell me that's in his future? Those guys have WWWWWWAY more juice laterally and explosviely than Hoppa.

[Billy Walker]

I'd kindly suggest that expecting improvements in the areas Hoppa needs to improve in (which all hinge on athleticism) for a soon to be 23 year old with a frankly staggering and heart breaking history of catasrophic lower leg injuries on both knees is on the very extreme scale of irrationality. I'd bet on unproven talent over physical limitations.

It's pretty hard to imagine he'll suddenly get his agilty, footwork, change of pace fluidity and top end speed back to be able to do what is required at an NRL level as a winger. Can it happen? Sure. Sports are a sand pit for miracles, but that's where he's at. He needs a miracle.

He's knees are probably paper mache at this point. And he plays like it. It's all stright line stuff, when it's north and south, he's OK. But anything that requires any movement side to side and it's like a tug boat. Not his fualt and man, its a shame. He was an outragously gifted athlete...

I mean ultimately, what is his path to being an impactful FG footballer? It's a To'o /Marzhew style of footballer. Anyone willing to tell me that's in his future? Those guys have WWWWWWAY more juice laterally and explosviely than Hoppa.

And yet you are all in and unnervingly passionate over the prospects of a 177cm forward.

[Botman]

And yet you are all in and unnervingly passionate over the prospects of a 177cm forward.

Oh great point. If only I had a ton of posts that speak directly to the very reasonable concerns about Puru's size and questions on whether he handle the NRL game given those limitations.

Oh, wait. I do: search.php?keywords=puru%2Bsize&terms=a ... mit=Search

[Ruben Daley]

I think Saulo, Guler and Hoppa could surprise a lot of people, particularly Hoppa. All very young in their careers for thier respective positions.

It’s possible but I’m trying to think of the last time I was surprised by a guy who was serviceable but showed no glimpses of high-end play through his first 30 (Hoppa) to 80 (Emre) games who then became a great player. I’m sure there are examples but I can’t think of them.

Most guys who have big lifts in output showed some spark of their potential during their initial period.

To me, Ata, Mooney and Savage have all shown something that, if harnessed and demonstrated consistently, could make them really good first-graders. The other three have had good games and some good individual plays but none has done anything to get me even remotely excited.

To be clear, I’m not a basher of these guys and tend to be far more generous in my appraisal of their contributions than most. I just think their ceiling is 7/10 whereas those other guys can go way higher.

[Rickmando]

Rapana, Cotric, Savage, Asomua, Schiller are all far and away better than Hopoate.

Hoppa shouldn’t even be considered unless something drastic happens and only one of them is available. He’s a horrific defender, terrible under the high ball, doesn’t have great hands, would be one of the least agile outside backs in the comp and has an absolute stinker in him most games. He’s good rucking the ball out but that’s the only thing he has under any of the others and all his shortcomings far outweigh that. At this point the club would be best of using him to mentor NSW Cup players in working hard and what it takes to come back from adversity.

Excellent, no notes.

Those people suggesting Hoppa is an NRL standard winger that should be in contention for a starting berth are, just like our muppet coach, showing that they are focused on the completely wrong details.

Whatever marginal gain Hoppa provides with return yardage vs the average (it’s not that much btw) is totally wiped out with the defensive frailties, and the tries he misses out on converting due to his frankly dreadful athleticism. We already barely create any overlap space for our wingers with our Stone Age attacking structure - then you want to ask our treacle-slow winger to try and outpace coverage? Give us a spell

[Bluesbrother]

Rapana, Cotric, Savage, Asomua, Schiller are all far and away better than Hopoate.

Hoppa shouldn’t even be considered unless something drastic happens and only one of them is available. He’s a horrific defender, terrible under the high ball, doesn’t have great hands, would be one of the least agile outside backs in the comp and has an absolute stinker in him most games. He’s good rucking the ball out but that’s the only thing he has under any of the others and all his shortcomings far outweigh that. At this point the club would be best of using him to mentor NSW Cup players in working hard and what it takes to come back from adversity.

Excellent, no notes.

Those people suggesting Hoppa is an NRL standard winger that should be in contention for a starting berth are, just like our muppet coach, showing that they are focused on the completely wrong details.

Whatever marginal gain Hoppa provides with return yardage vs the average (it’s not that much btw) is totally wiped out with the defensive frailties, and the tries he misses out on converting due to his frankly dreadful athleticism. We already barely create any overlap space for our wingers with our Stone Age attacking structure - then you want to ask our treacle-slow winger to try and outpace coverage? Give us a spell

Lol blaming wingers for tries. We've got defensive issues across the park. Suggesting Hoppa leaks points on his own shows the ridiculous nature of your assessment.

Muppet coach has turned this club around. Nice one Rick.

[Bluesbrother]

I think Saulo, Guler and Hoppa could surprise a lot of people, particularly Hoppa. All very young in their careers for thier respective positions.

It’s possible but I’m trying to think of the last time I was surprised by a guy who was serviceable but showed no glimpses of high-end play through his first 30 (Hoppa) to 80 (Emre) games who then became a great player. I’m sure there are examples but I can’t think of them.

Most guys who have big lifts in output showed some spark of their potential during their initial period.

To me, Ata, Mooney and Savage have all shown something that, if harnessed and demonstrated consistently, could make them really good first-graders. The other three have had good games and some good individual plays but none has done anything to get me even remotely excited.

To be clear, I’m not a basher of these guys and tend to be far more generous in my appraisal of their contributions than most. I just think their ceiling is 7/10 whereas those other guys can go way higher.

100% agree on that.

All I'm saying is that in a 17 man roster you need a few role players. These guys are not horrendous players like some on here make out. Bringing young guys into NRL is not easy and I would suggest Ricky had shown a good record with this. Particularly in his time at the Raiders. Cotric was very young when he played consistently in the NRL. He stayed in the team because he didn't drop in form and performed well on a consistent basis. I find it laughable that a few online bloggers think they know more about bringing players into the NRL than the only man to win Dally M player of the year and Dally M coach of the year. Nice chat fellas.

[Rickmando]

Rapana, Cotric, Savage, Asomua, Schiller are all far and away better than Hopoate.

Hoppa shouldn’t even be considered unless something drastic happens and only one of them is available. He’s a horrific defender, terrible under the high ball, doesn’t have great hands, would be one of the least agile outside backs in the comp and has an absolute stinker in him most games. He’s good rucking the ball out but that’s the only thing he has under any of the others and all his shortcomings far outweigh that. At this point the club would be best of using him to mentor NSW Cup players in working hard and what it takes to come back from adversity.

Excellent, no notes.

Those people suggesting Hoppa is an NRL standard winger that should be in contention for a starting berth are, just like our muppet coach, showing that they are focused on the completely wrong details.

Whatever marginal gain Hoppa provides with return yardage vs the average (it’s not that much btw) is totally wiped out with the defensive frailties, and the tries he misses out on converting due to his frankly dreadful athleticism. We already barely create any overlap space for our wingers with our Stone Age attacking structure - then you want to ask our treacle-slow winger to try and outpace coverage? Give us a spell

Lol blaming wingers for tries. We've got defensive issues across the park. Suggesting Hoppa leaks points on his own shows the ridiculous nature of your assessment.

Muppet coach has turned this club around. Nice one Rick.

The guy can’t catch a cold or position himself correctly in defence, but OK I’m fine to just disregard every winger’s defence completely for the sake of conversation.

That leaves us with what? One of the worst wingers in attack instead? Hoppa is unquestionably the slowest winger in the comp. So, if we aren’t caring what’s happening on the defensive side of the ball, give me every single other outside back in the club (and possibly our reserve grade) ahead of him for that wing spot. Those guys over the course of the season will likely convert 4-6 more try scoring opportunities simply by catching the ball and being athletic than big slug Hoppa.

Weve seen what he is. Fine to have him in the 30 but he wouldn’t be in contention for first grade at any other NRL club apart from our muppet show with our muppet ringleader.

[Ben & Sev Love Milk]

Honestly calling the club a Muppet show and the coach a muppet ring leader
Go support another club
Maybe Dogs , Dragons or Tigers then you can really support a muppet show

[Rickmando]

Ah yes, I’d forgotten this time of year is the peak EDIT.

Let’s see how your enthusiasm to drink the kool aid directly from the cult leader shapes up after 10 rounds of grindball where he’s got us to 3-7 without us scoring more than 20 points in a game.

It’s funny how those clubs are often raised on here EDIT, looking down their noses on them as if we are somehow run or coached far better. Are you conveniently forgetting each one of them has tasted premiership glory more recently than we have??

[Ben & Sev Love Milk]

Yeah bro and how many coaches have them clubs sacked in the time Ricky has been in charge of Canberra ? How many finals games they played in recent years ? Do you think them clubs have recruited well? I’m honestly not a fan of everything Ricky does but he has given the club an identity since he has been there and it’s obvious they have a plan now and I think it’s our best chance of success again. So sign me up for some kool aid

[Rickmando]

Hey man I get it. If you can’t be optimistic at this time of the year, when can you?

But when do we say 10 years of seeing the same thing over and over again isn’t going to get us closer to winning a premiership? It’s been made clear we can’t “bleed green” our way to one.

And this isn’t someone with real coaching chops like Bennett or Bellamy - Rick’s overall record looks more dire with each year that passes.

[Ben & Sev Love Milk]

Yeah and i get people get frustrated but the bloke has won a comp as a coach and made 4 in total I think , how many NRL coaches have that on the resume ? so I think it’s fair to say he has some idea and yeah he is not Bellamy or Bennett but they are 2 of the greatest coaches ever . The game has changed the last few years and we probably haven’t changed with it but I honestly think we will look different this year. But just the opinion of a hack .