Ricky Stuart savages referee standard

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cat
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Re: Contentious refereeing decisions

Post by cat »

Ok nickman what are the refs doing to combat unconscious bias?

What systems are they putting into place to over come it?

They can watch as many videos as they like but thats not putting systems/technologies/techniques in place to prevent it happening in the first place.

Savage could watch all the videos he wants and chat about the game but unless he
1. Changes his technique
2. Builds some weight/muscle
3. Works with the team psychologist to develop confidence/ attitude ( not saying this actually is a problem for savage)

All the video watching and chatting wont change the outcome of savage being dragged back if the other 3 areas aren't addressed

Same with the refs, so Nickman show me where the refs are improving/ working on their weaknesses?
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Re: Contentious refereeing decisions

Post by cat »

greeneyed wrote: July 4, 2022, 2:24 pm
Northern Raider wrote: July 4, 2022, 2:12 pm
Seiffert82 wrote: July 4, 2022, 11:57 am Every team gets good and bad calls. We've had a couple of absolute clangers this season though.
I'd love to see the Panthers on the end of a few of these. We've seen in the past that Cleary doesn't react well if the decisions don't go their way. Unfortunately it rarely happens and they seem to get the rub of the green on a regular basis. Roosters were always getting the calls their way when they were leading the comp. Todd Payten was 100% correct when he said that teams at the pointy end get a lot more contentious calls go their way.
It is unrecognised bias on the part of the officials. But given the extensive psycological studies of the phenomenon, it is possible for a forward thinking NRL and a forward thinking NRL football department to understand that it exists. Recognising it is an issue is the first step to addressing it. But, as we know, Graham Annesley recently went to extreme lengths to deny there is a possible problem... and in the process showed that he doesn't understand the concept at all. It won't improve until they understand the nature of the issue.
As I said the " ref's team/club" are years behind the rest of the competition and seem to refuse to 1. Admit there is a problem and 2 . Do something about it.

I can't understand why they resist change so much apart from the fact the refs are a "club" run with the concept of jobs for mates.
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Re: Contentious refereeing decisions

Post by The Nickman »

Northern Raider wrote: July 4, 2022, 3:04 pm
The Nickman wrote: July 4, 2022, 2:46 pm I genuinely don't get all this hubbub about the Lodge penalty; he was hit high, he laid down, he got the penalty... which is literally what every single player who has been hit high since the video ref got brought in has done!

You want to be upset, be upset at the **** idiot who hit him high with a minute to go.
Bunker can only rule if it's reportable. A tackle that slips up and brushes an opponent's head is not reportable.
Everybody knows that, but ever since that rule was brought in the bunker has REPEATEDLY put soft high tackles on report so the penalty can correctly be given only for it to be thrown out by the judiciary.

That's not a new thing, we weren't unlucky here, that happens literally every week. Don't hit the **** high in the first place and you don't give the penalty away.
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Re: Contentious refereeing decisions

Post by The Nickman »

cat wrote: July 4, 2022, 3:43 pm Ok nickman what are the refs doing to combat unconscious bias?

What systems are they putting into place to over come it?

They can watch as many videos as they like but thats not putting systems/technologies/techniques in place to prevent it happening in the first place.

Savage could watch all the videos he wants and chat about the game but unless he
1. Changes his technique
2. Builds some weight/muscle
3. Works with the team psychologist to develop confidence/ attitude ( not saying this actually is a problem for savage)

All the video watching and chatting wont change the outcome of savage being dragged back if the other 3 areas aren't addressed

Same with the refs, so Nickman show me where the refs are improving/ working on their weaknesses?
What on earth do you think they do all week? Just sit around and get on the beers? Of course they're constantly training and working on their weaknesses, just like every team should be too.

And unconscious bias is something that happens in literally every sport on the planet, down to my local touch footy league. If one team is dominating the run of play, the referee tends to unconsciously rule in that team's favour.

Again, this isn't a new thing, and it isn't exclusive to the NRL. What are other sports doing to combat this very real phenomenon?
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Re: Contentious refereeing decisions

Post by Badger17 »

There's no way to control for human error, so howlers and bad mistakes are inevitable.

What is really concerning about the NRL's refereeing is that a culture of allowing "little things" go has been become cemented in refereeing practices, and that has become accepted by spectators at this point. It's also pretty much undeniable that those habits, and howlers for that matter, are effecting certain teams more than others. Those flaws also make the system ripe for corruption, not that I'm making any accusations, but I honestly wouldn't be surprised either considering how easy it would be to cover up, especially since the introduction of the six again rule.

The NRL also badly misuses the technology that it has for enforcement as well, with extremely arbitrary rules on what can and can't be officiated by the bunker, and when and how they can do it. It's like they designed it to be ineffectual and annoying.

Most of that is fixable, but unfortunately a serious discussion about that stuff has proven impossible because of the obfuscation of bad actors, vested interests, and their useful idiots.
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Re: Contentious refereeing decisions

Post by cat »

The Nickman wrote: July 4, 2022, 4:28 pm
cat wrote: July 4, 2022, 3:43 pm Ok nickman what are the refs doing to combat unconscious bias?

What systems are they putting into place to over come it?

They can watch as many videos as they like but thats not putting systems/technologies/techniques in place to prevent it happening in the first place.

Savage could watch all the videos he wants and chat about the game but unless he
1. Changes his technique
2. Builds some weight/muscle
3. Works with the team psychologist to develop confidence/ attitude ( not saying this actually is a problem for savage)

All the video watching and chatting wont change the outcome of savage being dragged back if the other 3 areas aren't addressed

Same with the refs, so Nickman show me where the refs are improving/ working on their weaknesses?
What on earth do you think they do all week? Just sit around and get on the beers? Of course they're constantly training and working on their weaknesses, just like every team should be too.

And unconscious bias is something that happens in literally every sport on the planet, down to my local touch footy league. If one team is dominating the run of play, the referee tends to unconsciously rule in that team's favour.

Again, this isn't a new thing, and it isn't exclusive to the NRL. What are other sports doing to combat this very real phenomenon?
Of course they train and chat about what went wrong BUT they are not actively recognising they have problems and using everything available to them to fix it

In terms of the unconscious bias other sports AND rugby league competitions are aware of their refs/umpires background ( country they are from, team supported growing up etc) and make appointments appropriately
Other sports work with sports psychologists to over come and at least recognise these biases. The NRL dont even recognise its a problem.

As I have said multiple times the Nrl referee "team/club" are doing nothing to respond to the problems they have, they dont even recognise they have problems!

If the raiders were not
- using a sports psychologist
- using gps technology
- using current best practice rehab techniques for injuries and pre/post game management
Etc etc etc

would you be happy with the raiders " just training and watching videos " and getting it wrong?

Then why are people happy to let the refs keep getting it wrong with no accountability , recognition or desire to change?
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Re: Contentious refereeing decisions

Post by Finchy »

NRL bosses apologise to Ricky and Robbo after crucial mistakes

The NRL has admitted the Raiders were robbed of an opportunity to kick a penalty goal to send their clash with the Dragons to golden point.

“In most cases we want dummy-halves to be able to clear the ball, in most cases when you see that kind of tackle it results in a penalty,” Annesley said. “In our view that should have been a penalty. There is three incidents, the off-side, the flop and then there is the move around to tackle the dummy-half.”

Read more: https://www.foxsports.com.au/nrl/nrl-pr ... 711a5c0323
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Re: Contentious refereeing decisions

Post by bonehead »

if you constantly bash, blame and sack refs there'll be none

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Re: Contentious refereeing decisions

Post by The Nickman »

cat wrote: July 4, 2022, 5:08 pm
The Nickman wrote: July 4, 2022, 4:28 pm
cat wrote: July 4, 2022, 3:43 pm Ok nickman what are the refs doing to combat unconscious bias?

What systems are they putting into place to over come it?

They can watch as many videos as they like but thats not putting systems/technologies/techniques in place to prevent it happening in the first place.

Savage could watch all the videos he wants and chat about the game but unless he
1. Changes his technique
2. Builds some weight/muscle
3. Works with the team psychologist to develop confidence/ attitude ( not saying this actually is a problem for savage)

All the video watching and chatting wont change the outcome of savage being dragged back if the other 3 areas aren't addressed

Same with the refs, so Nickman show me where the refs are improving/ working on their weaknesses?
What on earth do you think they do all week? Just sit around and get on the beers? Of course they're constantly training and working on their weaknesses, just like every team should be too.

And unconscious bias is something that happens in literally every sport on the planet, down to my local touch footy league. If one team is dominating the run of play, the referee tends to unconsciously rule in that team's favour.

Again, this isn't a new thing, and it isn't exclusive to the NRL. What are other sports doing to combat this very real phenomenon?
Of course they train and chat about what went wrong BUT they are not actively recognising they have problems and using everything available to them to fix it

In terms of the unconscious bias other sports AND rugby league competitions are aware of their refs/umpires background ( country they are from, team supported growing up etc) and make appointments appropriately
Other sports work with sports psychologists to over come and at least recognise these biases. The NRL dont even recognise its a problem.

As I have said multiple times the Nrl referee "team/club" are doing nothing to respond to the problems they have, they dont even recognise they have problems!

If the raiders were not
- using a sports psychologist
- using gps technology
- using current best practice rehab techniques for injuries and pre/post game management
Etc etc etc

would you be happy with the raiders " just training and watching videos " and getting it wrong?

Then why are people happy to let the refs keep getting it wrong with no accountability , recognition or desire to change?
Again, it's obvious you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about regarding the referees, their systems, their training and accountability mechanisms and you're just blabbering aimlessly from a completely one-eyed fan's point of you, like every single other one of your posts.

If there's any proof of unconscious bias ever required, one just needs to look back through your post history on literally every single topic.
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Contentious refereeing decisions

Post by FuiFui BradBrad »

Do we need to counter this thread with a count of how many times a Rapana brain fart has cost us a win?

Swings and roundabouts. If Rapana gave his kick full beans, or Wighton catches that drop kick instead of playing Volleyball, what happened in the 89th minute wouldn’t be a factor.
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Re: Contentious refereeing decisions

Post by Rickmando »

Really? We’re doing the old “we wuz robbed!” again??

Surely as a supporter base we can be better than that.

The Refs aren’t out to get us, and they’re not our to get any of the other clubs in the league either. They just aren’t very good at their jobs sometimes. Sometimes that works in our favour and sometimes it doesn’t. This thread is pathetic.
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Re: Contentious refereeing decisions

Post by Off »

But but, we are looking to take away from the fact that we played like ****, and all cry and bitch and moan together under the Raiders flag.

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Re: Contentious refereeing decisions

Post by Azza »

Christ we stink.
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Re: Contentious refereeing decisions

Post by greeneyed »

Finchy wrote: July 4, 2022, 5:19 pm NRL bosses apologise to Ricky and Robbo after crucial mistakes

The NRL has admitted the Raiders were robbed of an opportunity to kick a penalty goal to send their clash with the Dragons to golden point.

“In most cases we want dummy-halves to be able to clear the ball, in most cases when you see that kind of tackle it results in a penalty,” Annesley said. “In our view that should have been a penalty. There is three incidents, the off-side, the flop and then there is the move around to tackle the dummy-half.”

Read more: https://www.foxsports.com.au/nrl/nrl-pr ... 711a5c0323
Annesley didn’t apologise. He went to some length to tell us he’d not apologised to any club in four years, as it’s not his role to apologise because someone’s made an error and everyone makes errors.
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Re: Contentious Refereeing Decisions

Post by Billy Walker »

gergreg wrote: July 4, 2022, 10:11 am We created success in 2019 by not using this nonsense as an excuse but we've reverted to this pathetic victim mentality. We are playing like garbage. We continue to lose these games we should win and those last minute wins, which we jag, (knights and sharks) gloss over how bad we truly are.
Correct Gergs - I declare you winner of this thread. Some of the other tin foil views gave me a good chuckle though. Some out there victim mentality views!
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Re: Contentious Refereeing Decisions

Post by greeneyed »

gergreg wrote: July 4, 2022, 10:11 am We created success in 2019 by not using this nonsense as an excuse but we've reverted to this pathetic victim mentality. We are playing like garbage. We continue to lose these games we should win and those last minute wins, which we jag, (knights and sharks) gloss over how bad we truly are.
That is the culture the team and coach should be engendering. Only focus on the things you can control, and be better if the things out of your control go against you.

But I think it is quite reasonable for the supporters to point out that their team is being affected by the unrecognised biases of the the officials. We should press the NRL and the officials to be better, to recogise those unconscious biases and to take steps to limit the impact of those biases in decision making. Clearly the NRL's head of football doesn't even understand what unrecognised biases are, based on his public comments from not so long ago. It is up to them to ensure there is a proper, level playing field.
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Re: Contentious refereeing decisions

Post by Dr Greenthumb »

Isn’t it interesting how the only time the Warriors get incorrect match winning decisions in their favor is against us? Also, you only have to look at how the referees interact with our captain to see there is an unconscious bias. Like yesterday when Whitehead pointed out that Ravalawa had picked up the ball in an offside position. The referee pretty much scoffed at him and looked at him like he had a disease.
Last edited by Dr Greenthumb on July 4, 2022, 7:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Contentious Refereeing Decisions

Post by gerg »

greeneyed wrote:
gergreg wrote: July 4, 2022, 10:11 am We created success in 2019 by not using this nonsense as an excuse but we've reverted to this pathetic victim mentality. We are playing like garbage. We continue to lose these games we should win and those last minute wins, which we jag, (knights and sharks) gloss over how bad we truly are.
That is the culture the team and coach should be engendering. Only focus on the things you can control, and be better if the things out of your control go against you.

But I think it is quite reasonable for the supporters to point out that their team is being affected by the unrecognised biases of the the officials. We should press the NRL and the officials to be better, to recogise those unconscious biases and to take steps to limit the impact of those biases in decision making. Clearly the NRL's head of football doesn't even understand what unrecognised biases are, based on his public comments from not so long ago. It is up to them to ensure there is a proper, level playing field.
I bet there are Knights fans still complaining about that leg up penalty against them, which got us into a game winning position the game before.
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Re: Contentious refereeing decisions

Post by Botman »

The fans are the fans. They'll always think the world is out to get them, as all fan bases do. I dont really care about the fans. They'll bitch and complain regardless.

But we had one year in which the club made a conscious and deliberate effort to hold themselves to a standard and be accountable to it. One year where the team's top 17 was dictated by performances on the field, there was no room for passangers, the best players played, and the team was not based on who's important for "culture" off the field or to hold a dressing room. One year where the squad truly had some accountability. And had BJ passed we might have won the premiership

Since then we've sharply reverted back on those ethos and results have followed accordingly.
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Re: Contentious refereeing decisions

Post by Finchy »

greeneyed wrote: July 4, 2022, 7:04 pm
Finchy wrote: July 4, 2022, 5:19 pm NRL bosses apologise to Ricky and Robbo after crucial mistakes

The NRL has admitted the Raiders were robbed of an opportunity to kick a penalty goal to send their clash with the Dragons to golden point.

“In most cases we want dummy-halves to be able to clear the ball, in most cases when you see that kind of tackle it results in a penalty,” Annesley said. “In our view that should have been a penalty. There is three incidents, the off-side, the flop and then there is the move around to tackle the dummy-half.”

Read more: https://www.foxsports.com.au/nrl/nrl-pr ... 711a5c0323
Annesley didn’t apologise. He went to some length to tell us he’d not apologised to any club in four years, as it’s not his role to apologise because someone’s made an error and everyone makes errors.
Just putting the title of the article in there. I blame foxsports if it’s a lie
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Re: Contentious refereeing decisions

Post by gerg »

Botman wrote:The fans are the fans. They'll always think the world is out to get them, as all fan bases do. I dont really care about the fans. They'll bitch and complain regardless.

But we had one year in which the club made a conscious and deliberate effort to hold themselves to a standard and be accountable to it. One year where the team's top 17 was dictated by performances on the field, there was no room for passangers, the best players played, and the team was not based on who's important for "culture" off the field or to hold a dressing room. One year where the squad truly had some accountability. And had BJ passed we might have won the premiership

Since then we've sharply reverted back on those ethos and results have followed accordingly.
And it's staggering that it's 'the fans' that see it as something that needs to be recalibrated, and the actual team doesn't seem to recognise this issue.
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Re: Contentious refereeing decisions

Post by papabear »

Finchy wrote: July 4, 2022, 10:55 am
papabear wrote: July 4, 2022, 10:51 am there was a match against the dragons when they were good and we were **** in or around 2003 we ended up drawing but it was the biggest conjob from the refs I had ever witnessed.
I remember that one. I thought it was 2001. We got rorted big time
2001 we had a draw with brisbane cant find th draw that year..

be great if someone had a youtube of the game - could rewatch it see if we were bullcraped or it was just my bias at the time.
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Re: Contentious refereeing decisions

Post by Finchy »

papabear wrote: July 4, 2022, 9:02 pm
Finchy wrote: July 4, 2022, 10:55 am
papabear wrote: July 4, 2022, 10:51 am there was a match against the dragons when they were good and we were **** in or around 2003 we ended up drawing but it was the biggest conjob from the refs I had ever witnessed.
I remember that one. I thought it was 2001. We got rorted big time
2001 we had a draw with brisbane cant find th draw that year..

be great if someone had a youtube of the game - could rewatch it see if we were bullcraped or it was just my bias at the time.
Turns out it was round 9 in 2002. 21-21 draw.
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Re: Contentious refereeing decisions

Post by greeneyed »

Finchy wrote: July 4, 2022, 8:07 pm
greeneyed wrote: July 4, 2022, 7:04 pm
Finchy wrote: July 4, 2022, 5:19 pm NRL bosses apologise to Ricky and Robbo after crucial mistakes

The NRL has admitted the Raiders were robbed of an opportunity to kick a penalty goal to send their clash with the Dragons to golden point.

“In most cases we want dummy-halves to be able to clear the ball, in most cases when you see that kind of tackle it results in a penalty,” Annesley said. “In our view that should have been a penalty. There is three incidents, the off-side, the flop and then there is the move around to tackle the dummy-half.”

Read more: https://www.foxsports.com.au/nrl/nrl-pr ... 711a5c0323
Annesley didn’t apologise. He went to some length to tell us he’d not apologised to any club in four years, as it’s not his role to apologise because someone’s made an error and everyone makes errors.
Just putting the title of the article in there. I blame foxsports if it’s a lie
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Re: Contentious refereeing decisions

Post by Billy Walker »

I believe it was Sun Tzu who once asked if an unconscious bias ceases to exist if one seeks to consciously recognise it…..
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Re: Contentious refereeing decisions

Post by greeneyed »

Billy Walker wrote: July 4, 2022, 11:52 pm I believe it was Sun Tzu who once asked if an unconscious bias ceases to exist if one seeks to consciously recognise it…..
Probably doesn’t deserve a response, but…

This simply reveals more of your lack of understanding of the issue. Not surprising. People constantly work on themselves to improve themselves. Those with self awareness can work on their biases once they recognise them. But you’re always learning and improving, making mistakes and learning more.

I believe Sun Tzu once said… don’t listen to Billy. He posts a lot of rubbish.
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Re: Contentious refereeing decisions

Post by -PJ- »

Is Peter Gough required this weekend ?

I’ll say no.
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Re: Contentious refereeing decisions

Post by Billy Walker »

greeneyed wrote: July 5, 2022, 12:26 am
Billy Walker wrote: July 4, 2022, 11:52 pm I believe it was Sun Tzu who once asked if an unconscious bias ceases to exist if one seeks to consciously recognise it…..
Probably doesn’t deserve a response, but…

This simply reveals more of your lack of understanding of the issue. Not surprising. People constantly work on themselves to improve themselves. Those with self awareness can work on their biases once they recognise them. But you’re always learning and improving, making mistakes and learning more.

I believe Sun Tzu once said… don’t listen to Billy. He posts a lot of rubbish.
So we get the refs to fix this unconscious bias stuff and global warming will fix the Canberra climate over the longer term. Shall I pencil us in for the 2078 premiership or do you think there is a chance we might drop the excuses, just get better and win one before then?
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Re: Contentious refereeing decisions

Post by Seiffert82 »

I still blame a rule that allows the ref to arbitrarily rule that the exact same infringement as a 6 again, a penalty, or a penalty plus sin-bin.

I'm over the result of this game, but it does piss me off that the Raiders have had a couple of players sent for 10 and a penalty awarded for a "professional foul" in almost the same position on the field - yet we get a useless 6 again call with 10 seconds on the clock.

It's ridiculous. It was always going to impact the outcome of a game and I look forward to the 6 again rule being abolished because a high profile team loses the ability to tie up a game because of it.

It's a stupid rule to speed up a game because refs were too scared to fully penalise high profile teams for slowing down the ruck. Get rid of it.




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Re: Contentious refereeing decisions

Post by The Nickman »

greeneyed wrote: July 5, 2022, 12:26 am
Billy Walker wrote: July 4, 2022, 11:52 pm I believe it was Sun Tzu who once asked if an unconscious bias ceases to exist if one seeks to consciously recognise it…..
Probably doesn’t deserve a response, but…

This simply reveals more of your lack of understanding of the issue. Not surprising. People constantly work on themselves to improve themselves. Those with self awareness can work on their biases once they recognise them. But you’re always learning and improving, making mistakes and learning more.

I believe Sun Tzu once said… don’t listen to Billy. He posts a lot of rubbish.
He was a wise man, Sun Tzu.
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Re: Contentious refereeing decisions

Post by greeneyed »

Billy Walker wrote: July 5, 2022, 7:22 am
greeneyed wrote: July 5, 2022, 12:26 am
Billy Walker wrote: July 4, 2022, 11:52 pm I believe it was Sun Tzu who once asked if an unconscious bias ceases to exist if one seeks to consciously recognise it…..
Probably doesn’t deserve a response, but…

This simply reveals more of your lack of understanding of the issue. Not surprising. People constantly work on themselves to improve themselves. Those with self awareness can work on their biases once they recognise them. But you’re always learning and improving, making mistakes and learning more.

I believe Sun Tzu once said… don’t listen to Billy. He posts a lot of rubbish.
So we get the refs to fix this unconscious bias stuff and global warming will fix the Canberra climate over the longer term. Shall I pencil us in for the 2078 premiership or do you think there is a chance we might drop the excuses, just get better and win one before then?
So you have high standards for the Raiders but are happy that the referees don’t strive to be the best they can be.
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Old School Green
Dean Lance
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Re: Contentious refereeing decisions

Post by Old School Green »

Fact is the referee denied us a chance to win the game. The fact that the refs boss says there should have been three penalties and a binning indicates this wasn’t simply poor performance but something else was at play. Only speculative as to what that is but people will make their own judgements.

So separate the issues. Sure we could have won the game in other ways…but when the officials don’t enforce rules, deliberately ignore actions against the rules and we lose the opportunity to win as a result… call that out for what it is.

As Don said, the fact we seem to get shafted like this frequently indicates the possibility that this isn’t a series of random coincidences but rather something more systematic ie: unconscious bias etc.

Unfortunately I suspect some people’s views are clouded by their ‘Ricky should be replaced no ifs or buts’ narrative….
87, 89, 90, 91, 94, 19
I was there. Go the Milk !!
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Rickmando
John Ferguson
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Re: Contentious refereeing decisions

Post by Rickmando »

The Nuff Level is up to 11 on this thread
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Roger Kenworthy
Laurie Daley
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Re: Contentious refereeing decisions

Post by Roger Kenworthy »

greeneyed wrote: July 4, 2022, 7:04 pm
Finchy wrote: July 4, 2022, 5:19 pm NRL bosses apologise to Ricky and Robbo after crucial mistakes

The NRL has admitted the Raiders were robbed of an opportunity to kick a penalty goal to send their clash with the Dragons to golden point.

“In most cases we want dummy-halves to be able to clear the ball, in most cases when you see that kind of tackle it results in a penalty,” Annesley said. “In our view that should have been a penalty. There is three incidents, the off-side, the flop and then there is the move around to tackle the dummy-half.”

Read more: https://www.foxsports.com.au/nrl/nrl-pr ... 711a5c0323
Annesley didn’t apologise. He went to some length to tell us he’d not apologised to any club in four years, as it’s not his role to apologise because someone’s made an error and everyone makes errors.
Strange take from the journalist.
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Roger Kenworthy
Laurie Daley
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Re: Contentious refereeing decisions

Post by Roger Kenworthy »

The Nickman wrote: July 5, 2022, 9:19 am
greeneyed wrote: July 5, 2022, 12:26 am
Billy Walker wrote: July 4, 2022, 11:52 pm I believe it was Sun Tzu who once asked if an unconscious bias ceases to exist if one seeks to consciously recognise it…..
Probably doesn’t deserve a response, but…

This simply reveals more of your lack of understanding of the issue. Not surprising. People constantly work on themselves to improve themselves. Those with self awareness can work on their biases once they recognise them. But you’re always learning and improving, making mistakes and learning more.

I believe Sun Tzu once said… don’t listen to Billy. He posts a lot of rubbish.
He was a wise man, Sun Tzu.
Based on AE's form Sun Tzu should be prescribed reading.

Of course our response to his form is to drop him from the 13.
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