Botman wrote: ↑May 23, 2021, 7:24 am
Scott and CHN have been arguably our two best performers in back to back weeks
Strange time to be saying they’re not even FG footballers
For every good thing they do there's a couple of brain explosions in the back pocket. Scott has been borderline NRL quality this year, he'd still be well outside the top 20 centres in the game though. We're paying him like he's elite.
CHN is an absolute dud to me. Offers much less with ball in hand than expected and he'd be one of the worst defensive forwards in the comp. If this is him in form then I shudder to think what the other end of the spectrum looms like.
Scott is borderline... when he gets early ball, he has shown more...
CHN has looked unfit (like all our forwards)..... so who knows
He’s a liability in defence, but you’d excuse it if he were showing more in attack....which he isn’t.
Let’s be perfectly honest here, Rog
There is literally nothing those players could do it ever could have done that you wouldn’t find fault with.
You’re not capable of being remotely fair or accurate in your analysis of those players
CHN needs a bit more work. Last night he shoved the bloke playing the ball again, several times. It's dumb and unnecessary. When he made the break (which was good) I thought he passed a little too early to Scott, which made it difficult for Scott. I'd have to take another look but at the time I thought CHN was actually a chance if he backed himself. With that said he is one of only a few that looks like he actually gives a ****, he is actually trying his best. Scott looked good when receiving early ball.
Botman wrote: ↑May 23, 2021, 7:24 am
Scott and CHN have been arguably our two best performers in back to back weeks
Strange time to be saying they’re not even FG footballers
There's a hard core of Scott haters on here that's for sure.
I was ready to boot Scott at the start of the season, he needed to show something. He actually did. He's a pretty effective centre in attack- makes a break and a chance most games, his numbers stack up as a good FG centre in that regard. He showed what we thought we were getting when we bought him... but gets no credit?
Defensively he's been middling. Worst game I saw was the first game back after the ribs- clearly too early and no doubt entrenched the reputation he has as a shirt grabber. His numbers will not look great due to the Warriors game. But most games have been ok. For me, he's not a concern. He's getting on and doing his job and doing enough to contribute.
We've got one of the worst wingers in the NRL (Simo, yet to add to his grand tally of 2 line breaks in 2 seasons. When you're a winger whose errors outnumber your line breaks, it's a sign). A reserve grade quality FB and 2 rookies in the back 5. Scott is the least of our worries.
We’ve had 3 players play significant minutes on the edge this year, and CHN has been far and away the best defender of them all. That’s a truth many wish to ignore, but it’s a truth none the less
Curtis Scott outside of the two rib impacted games has been a good player for us. Better than Croker and, sorry to say, Kris.
For people to single these guys out is a true tell imo.
They’re the least of our concerns right now. If Curtis Scott or Jarrod Croker was getting washed like this every week the way Kris is, this place would be on FIRE. There would be multiple threads dedicated in their honour
Botman wrote:We’ve had 3 players play significant minutes on the edge this year, and CHN has been far and away the best defender of them all. That’s a truth many wish to ignore, but it’s a truth none the less
Curtis Scott outside of the two rib impacted games has been a good player for us. Better than Croker and, sorry to say, Kris.
For people to single these guys out is a true tell imo.
They’re the least of our concerns right now. If Curtis Scott or Jarrod Croker was getting washed like this every week the way Kris is, this place would be on FIRE. There would be multiple threads dedicated in their honour
Agree. Imagine if Croker let Hopoate and Smith cruise past him, in back to back weeks? Yet it barely rates a mention with Kris.
Botman wrote:We’ve had 3 players play significant minutes on the edge this year, and CHN has been far and away the best defender of them all. That’s a truth many wish to ignore, but it’s a truth none the less
Curtis Scott outside of the two rib impacted games has been a good player for us. Better than Croker and, sorry to say, Kris.
For people to single these guys out is a true tell imo.
They’re the least of our concerns right now. If Curtis Scott or Jarrod Croker was getting washed like this every week the way Kris is, this place would be on FIRE. There would be multiple threads dedicated in their honour
Agree. Imagine if Croker let Hopoate and Smith cruise past him, in back to back weeks? Yet it barely rates a mention with Kris.
I think the difference is Kris is an emerging player and if he doesn’t fix his defence nobody will be too concerned to see him go as quick as he arrived.
Croker on the other hand has been lauded by many for most his career as a future immortal who was hard done by not to be playing origin.
When Kris misses a tackle there isn’t a cheer squad blaming the inside man, outside man, defence style or anything else but Kris. If I believe all the posts on here Croker actually hasn’t missed a tackle his entire career.
Kris isn’t the standard..not by a long shot.
Simo is horrible...I really can’t understand how he’s escaped being dropped...
Scott has looked good with early ball but the eye test confirms his defence is average...
We came into the season with serious underinvestment in the backline and were paying the price...average across the park..
As for CHN the criticism is warranted.
Very poor in defence and still brain snapping when under pressure..
He’s looked better with early ball but looks unfit.
Sloppy passing to Scott when he could have easily scored..
That try NAS scored ... where is the effort to help Starling after seeing Starling hurt the play earlier?
He makes an attempt, but it’s limp and possibly late (fitness?)...
It’s not hard to see why he is on the nose...
Personally I’d like to see him fitter...but even then (go back to his Penrith days) he’s always had the knock on him as a lazy defender...
We can certainly upgrade. We need to get smaller and more mobile as a forward pack if we want to compete again.
Ball playing has to start with the forwards. No more 3 rucks to set up and 2 to attack...that **** is history.
The good teams are fit enough to set up and attack from the start...
Botman wrote:We’ve had 3 players play significant minutes on the edge this year, and CHN has been far and away the best defender of them all. That’s a truth many wish to ignore, but it’s a truth none the less
Curtis Scott outside of the two rib impacted games has been a good player for us. Better than Croker and, sorry to say, Kris.
For people to single these guys out is a true tell imo.
They’re the least of our concerns right now. If Curtis Scott or Jarrod Croker was getting washed like this every week the way Kris is, this place would be on FIRE. There would be multiple threads dedicated in their honour
Agree. Imagine if Croker let Hopoate and Smith cruise past him, in back to back weeks? Yet it barely rates a mention with Kris.
I think the difference is Kris is an emerging player and if he doesn’t fix his defence nobody will be too concerned to see him go as quick as he arrived.
Croker on the other hand has been lauded by many for most his career as a future immortal who was hard done by not to be playing origin.
When Kris misses a tackle there isn’t a cheer squad blaming the inside man, outside man, defence style or anything else but Kris. If I believe all the posts on here Croker actually hasn’t missed a tackle his entire career.
Let’s take this from another angle... if CHN and Scott simply can’t play. Not good enough for this level and we need to oust them... should we at least take 20% of the energy we spend bitching about these untalented, not good enough players to redirect to the good enough talented guys these dudes are comfortably out performing?
I mean it sucks to be untalented and no up to NRL footy, but it’s gotta be way more concerning to be talented and up to it and be out performed by those who aren’t, right?
As the late great Chris Wessling was fond of saying - analysis the game, not the name
Botman wrote: ↑May 23, 2021, 10:05 am yeah wonderfully constructed straw man is spot on
Let’s take this from another angle... if CHN and Scott simply can’t play. Not good enough for this level and we need to oust them... should we at least take 20% of the energy we spend bitching about these untalented, not good enough players to redirect to the good enough talented guys these dudes are comfortably out performing?
I mean it sucks to be untalented and no up to NRL footy, but it’s gotta be way more concerning to be talented and up to it and be out performed by those who aren’t, right?
As the late great Chris Wessling was fond of saying - analysis the game, not the name
Mate I’m sending you for a HIA, I want you find a bit of punctuation and consolidate the collection of ideas you have toward the point your trying to make.
Botman wrote: ↑May 23, 2021, 10:05 am yeah wonderfully constructed straw man is spot on
Let’s take this from another angle... if CHN and Scott simply can’t play. Not good enough for this level and we need to oust them... should we at least take 20% of the energy we spend bitching about these untalented, not good enough players to redirect to the good enough talented guys these dudes are comfortably out performing?
I mean it sucks to be untalented and no up to NRL footy, but it’s gotta be way more concerning to be talented and up to it and be out performed by those who aren’t, right?
As the late great Chris Wessling was fond of saying - analysis the game, not the name
Mate I’m sending you for a HIA, I want you find a bit of punctuation and consolidate the collection of ideas you have toward the point your trying to make.
Ole botty reminds me of a Japanese soldier from WW11 on his island still fighting the good fight for the fatherland.
Botman wrote:We’ve had 3 players play significant minutes on the edge this year, and CHN has been far and away the best defender of them all. That’s a truth many wish to ignore, but it’s a truth none the less
Curtis Scott outside of the two rib impacted games has been a good player for us. Better than Croker and, sorry to say, Kris.
For people to single these guys out is a true tell imo.
They’re the least of our concerns right now. If Curtis Scott or Jarrod Croker was getting washed like this every week the way Kris is, this place would be on FIRE. There would be multiple threads dedicated in their honour
Agree. Imagine if Croker let Hopoate and Smith cruise past him, in back to back weeks? Yet it barely rates a mention with Kris.
I think the difference is Kris is an emerging player and if he doesn’t fix his defence nobody will be too concerned to see him go as quick as he arrived.
Croker on the other hand has been lauded by many for most his career as a future immortal who was hard done by not to be playing origin.
When Kris misses a tackle there isn’t a cheer squad blaming the inside man, outside man, defence style or anything else but Kris. If I believe all the posts on here Croker actually hasn’t missed a tackle his entire career.
This is just flat out ridiculous. Most of his fans know Croker's limitations. Most of his fans have acknowledged his poor games. But I have to say again if Will Hopoate and Reimis Smith did what they did, to Croker there would be a heap of criticism directed at him. I don't know anyone with any sort of critical thinking can deny that Blake Austin was a bigger defensive problem than Croker.
As to your last paragraph. Nobody has blamed Kris for missing a tackle. That is exactly why I made the point. Again, suggesting that people think Croker never missed a tackle is **** ridiculous.
Botman wrote: ↑May 23, 2021, 10:05 am yeah wonderfully constructed straw man is spot on
Let’s take this from another angle... if CHN and Scott simply can’t play. Not good enough for this level and we need to oust them... should we at least take 20% of the energy we spend bitching about these untalented, not good enough players to redirect to the good enough talented guys these dudes are comfortably out performing?
I mean it sucks to be untalented and no up to NRL footy, but it’s gotta be way more concerning to be talented and up to it and be out performed by those who aren’t, right?
As the late great Chris Wessling was fond of saying - analysis the game, not the name
Mate I’m sending you for a HIA, I want you find a bit of punctuation and consolidate the collection of ideas you have toward the point your trying to make.
Ole botty reminds me of a Japanese soldier from WW11 on his island still fighting the good fight for the fatherland.
If you’re going to reference a great man in history, at least spend a moment to google his name
Hiroo Onoda
And you and a known repeated troll agreeing is perhaps the biggest ace up sleeve. If you two are sitting opposite me, I know I’m on the right track
If Simo's mostly insipid performances weren't enough to get him dropped, then surely the unforced error in taking the ball over the dead ball line should.
Deadset inexcusable and emblematic of the quality in our backline at the moment.
Scott IMO has worked himself from "fired into the sun" to "not top-of-the-ticket liability" status. We have more pressing issues than Scott at the moment I think, such as the emerging, highly touted younger forwards in Guler, Hors and Young becoming ploders.
Unfortunately if Simo keeps being at best a non-entity, he could find himself entering FITS status pretty soon.
Mickey_Raider wrote: ↑May 23, 2021, 11:08 am
If Simo's mostly insipid performances weren't enough to get him dropped, then surely the unforced error in taking the ball over the dead ball line should.
Deadset inexcusable and emblematic of the quality in our backline at the moment.
Scott IMO has worked himself from "fired into the sun" to "not top-of-the-ticket liability" status. We have more pressing issues than Scott at the moment I think, such as the emerging, highly touted younger forwards in Guler, Hors and Young becoming ploders.
Unfortunately if Simo keeps being at best a non-entity, he could find himself entering FITS status pretty soon.
The only bit of truth I’ve heard from Ricky the last two weeks was along the lines of ..”..if these are the new rules I’d need to recruit differently...” (paraphrasing)
I think Guler, Horse and James were being brought in to play as battering rams... up the guts as per our 2019 season.
The rules and pace of the game has changed.
The prototype for your middle is one that can pass the ball and have decent motor and leg speed ...
These guys are victims of circumstances but what can’t be excused is not being fit enough after 11 rounds...
Botman wrote: ↑May 23, 2021, 9:18 am
Let’s be perfectly honest here, Rog
There is literally nothing those players could do it ever could have done that you wouldn’t find fault with.
You’re not capable of being remotely fair or accurate in your analysis of those players
I'm always happy to be proven wrong. Completely willing to admit Wighton did that with his turn of form after I'd written him off. Like I said Scott is a borderline NRL player if you want to say top 32 centres, but we're paying him like he's top 10. CHN I just can't see how you can establish a consistently high performing edge when he's part of it. Off the bench he's borderline, but starting and playing 80 he's just a disaster.
mick63 wrote: ↑May 23, 2021, 11:12 am
The one track most likely
Anyway I’ll be having a sip later on in recognition of Hiroo.
There’s a bit of him in all us tragically loyal numnut raider fans
A toast to Hiroo is never a bad idea
Absolute icon
I always feel sorry for Teruo Nakamura in these conversations. Now THAT was a guy with staying power. Since he wasn't an officer, and was a Taiwanese Aboriginal to boot, he received a total of $220 backpay for this 30 years fighting on in the jungle.
Onada went home to a measure of fame and no small amount of wealth. Nakamura went back to discrimination, obscurity and a death to lung cancer five years later. Surely HE'S the guy Raiders fans should more closely identify with?
Son, we live in a world that has forums, and those forums have to be guarded by Mods. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Nickman? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Lucy, and you curse GE. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know -- that GE’s moderation, while tragic, probably saved lives; and my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, keeps threads on track and under the appropriately sized, highlighted green headings.
You want moderation because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that forum -- you need me on that forum. We use words like "stay on topic," "use the appropriate forum," "please delete." We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very moderation that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather that you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you get a green handle and edit a post. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think about moderation.
He’s played about 4 games as an 80 minute edge, and been one of our best in 2 of them, was very poor and ill disciplined in 1 and was perfectly cromulent in the other
I don’t know what happens in the future, maybe long term he does end up being a disaster, but it simply hasn’t been the case so far. In fact since moving to the edge and playing 80 minutes there he’s gotten better and better each week
mick63 wrote: ↑May 23, 2021, 11:12 am
The one track most likely
Anyway I’ll be having a sip later on in recognition of Hiroo.
There’s a bit of him in all us tragically loyal numnut raider fans
A toast to Hiroo is never a bad idea
Absolute icon
I always feel sorry for Teruo Nakamura in these conversations. Now THAT was a guy with staying power. Since he wasn't an officer, and was a Taiwanese Aboriginal to boot, he received a total of $220 backpay for this 30 years fighting on in the jungle.
Onada went home to a measure of fame and no small amount of wealth. Nakamura went back to discrimination, obscurity and a death to lung cancer five years later. Surely HE'S the guy Raiders fans should more closely identify with?
you know what? That’s a damn good point
Tonight, I’ll raise a glass to Teruo.
Botman wrote: ↑May 23, 2021, 9:18 am
Let’s be perfectly honest here, Rog
There is literally nothing those players could do it ever could have done that you wouldn’t find fault with.
You’re not capable of being remotely fair or accurate in your analysis of those players
I'm always happy to be proven wrong. Completely willing to admit Wighton did that with his turn of form after I'd written him off. Like I said Scott is a borderline NRL player if you want to say top 32 centres, but we're paying him like he's top 10. CHN I just can't see how you can establish a consistently high performing edge when he's part of it. Off the bench he's borderline, but starting and playing 80 he's just a disaster.
Id stick CHN at centre, where at the very least he will be running at smaller players and more effectively able to utilise his power and aggression. Kris deluded all of us with his two barnstorming games at the start of the start of the season but he is obviously, at best, a serviceable back up.
mick63 wrote: ↑May 23, 2021, 11:12 am
The one track most likely
Anyway I’ll be having a sip later on in recognition of Hiroo.
There’s a bit of him in all us tragically loyal numnut raider fans
A toast to Hiroo is never a bad idea
Absolute icon
I always feel sorry for Teruo Nakamura in these conversations. Now THAT was a guy with staying power. Since he wasn't an officer, and was a Taiwanese Aboriginal to boot, he received a total of $220 backpay for this 30 years fighting on in the jungle.
Onada went home to a measure of fame and no small amount of wealth. Nakamura went back to discrimination, obscurity and a death to lung cancer five years later. Surely HE'S the guy Raiders fans should more closely identify with?
Nakamura for sure if you’ve been a Raider fan from 95.You just have tales told of the good times to keep you pushing on.
Onada from 82 because there was some glory that can still light the fire.
They both get a sip.
What about the ones who were forgotten and left to perish on some atoll?
North Sydney Bear supporters?
Botman wrote:We’ve had 3 players play significant minutes on the edge this year, and CHN has been far and away the best defender of them all. That’s a truth many wish to ignore, but it’s a truth none the less
Curtis Scott outside of the two rib impacted games has been a good player for us. Better than Croker and, sorry to say, Kris.
For people to single these guys out is a true tell imo.
They’re the least of our concerns right now. If Curtis Scott or Jarrod Croker was getting washed like this every week the way Kris is, this place would be on FIRE. There would be multiple threads dedicated in their honour
Agree. Imagine if Croker let Hopoate and Smith cruise past him, in back to back weeks? Yet it barely rates a mention with Kris.
I think the difference is Kris is an emerging player and if he doesn’t fix his defence nobody will be too concerned to see him go as quick as he arrived.
Croker on the other hand has been lauded by many for most his career as a future immortal who was hard done by not to be playing origin.
When Kris misses a tackle there isn’t a cheer squad blaming the inside man, outside man, defence style or anything else but Kris. If I believe all the posts on here Croker actually hasn’t missed a tackle his entire career.
Mickey_Raider wrote: ↑May 23, 2021, 11:08 am
If Simo's mostly insipid performances weren't enough to get him dropped, then surely the unforced error in taking the ball over the dead ball line should.
Deadset inexcusable and emblematic of the quality in our backline at the moment.
Scott IMO has worked himself from "fired into the sun" to "not top-of-the-ticket liability" status. We have more pressing issues than Scott at the moment I think, such as the emerging, highly touted younger forwards in Guler, Hors and Young becoming ploders.
Unfortunately if Simo keeps being at best a non-entity, he could find himself entering FITS status pretty soon.
Guler, Horse and Young look lost, unfit and barely capable of performing in NSW cup this year, how does this happen?
The key to any rebuild is to rely on youth - see the likes of Reece Walsh at Warriors, Schuster at Manly, and the whole Penrith team. That's how you can compete and not pay overs for talent. You need to have good players coming through the system or recruit them cheaply from other clubs and then develop them - like Papenhuyzen at Melbourne and Hynes.
I am not sure whether our youth is what it is made out to be - Horse, Guler, and Young have regressed. The last good game Horse had was in 2019. He wasn't that good before his season ending injury against Parra last year. Before he was talked about being a State of Origin candidate for Qld, but in some ways he reminds me of Dave Taylor in his approach. We do not know whether he has the drive to succeed. The jury is still out on Semi, Bailey, and Kris, and whether they can be established and consistent first graders. And we have not really seen Timoko and HSS except for 1-2 games each.
Hong Kong Raider wrote: ↑May 23, 2021, 8:11 pm
The key to any rebuild is to rely on youth - see the likes of Reece Walsh at Warriors, Schuster at Manly, and the whole Penrith team. That's how you can compete and not pay overs for talent. You need to have good players coming through the system or recruit them cheaply from other clubs and then develop them - like Papenhuyzen at Melbourne and Hynes.
I am not sure whether our youth is what it is made out to be - Horse, Guler, and Young have regressed. The last good game Horse had was in 2019. He wasn't that good before his season ending injury against Parra last year. Before he was talked about being a State of Origin candidate for Qld, but in some ways he reminds me of Dave Taylor in his approach. We do not know whether he has the drive to succeed. The jury is still out on Semi, Bailey, and Kris, and whether they can be established and consistent first graders. And we have not really seen Timoko and HSS except for 1-2 games each.
Bailey Simonsen is a winger with two (count them both, 1... 2) linebreaks to his name in 2 seasons. If a backrower had those kind of numbers you'd accept he was a bit of a plodder. He's a bloody winger with no running threat. FHITS.
Semi shows signs of being a good winger. Did some very good things v the Dogs. Worth further investment, especially in a season like this where the stakes are now lower.
Kris can be a FG footy player. Needs to improve his defence. Not exactly an uncommon or unfixable problem in rookie players.
Whatever we are paying Hors is too much. Get him off the cans or back on a train and trial. He's gone nowhere and the new footy doesn't suit him either.
Young was gangbusters last year. He'll comegood again.
Guler has looked ok since returning. He's very up and down but is a young prop. His fitness could be better but that's the whole team.
Young I think is probably lacking in confidence. I think a stint in reserve grade to get his head on straight and work out a few things in his game is what the doctor orders there.
Hors what can I say he is in terrible shape. I don't want to be insulting but he is essentially the issues with our side up front personified. He needs to drop some weight. A couple of weeks ago he does the line dropout return and hits the line with the impact of a feather. The game in 2021 is speed, fitness and momentum. We can't have our forwards just hitting the line like slugs, easily getting dominated and a slow play the ball.
I saw a stat that Melbourne, Penrith and parra have their opposition in the opposition's own half 2/3rds of the game. Its very obvious how they do this. Its not by having slow moving forwards drifting up and down the field like a milk truck
I’m extremely confused by all the talk about Guler
I think he’s been travelling along fine. Like most of the team he’s not playing close to his best. He remains extremely good defensively. As far as running the football he’s 2nd behind Papalii in our pack for post contact metres (nrl.com stats), he’s 3rd in the team behind Papalii and Sutton for runs of 8+ metres (stat lab) and is averaging pretty much bang on 100 metres per game
Given that this pack is lead by Papalii, Tapine and this year Sutton, that output from your #3 middle is pretty good, especially when the guy is 22 and coming off major injury, and clearly suffering the same fitness issues the entire squad has got
Emre Guler is of absolutely no concern to me what so ever. Fix the fitness and he’s going to be fine. He and all the forwards would of course benefit from competent bench usage but I’ve given up on Stuart ever figuring that out. He’s not figured it out in 15+ years of coaching so that’s just a handicap they’ll have to overcome
Botman wrote:I’m extremely confused by all the talk about Guler
I think he’s been travelling along fine. Like most of the team he’s not playing close to his best. He remains extremely good defensively. As far as running the football he’s 2nd behind Papalii in our pack for post contact metres (nrl.com stats), he’s 3rd in the team behind Papalii and Sutton for runs of 8+ metres (stat lab) and is averaging pretty much bang on 100 metres per game
Given that this pack is lead by Papalii, Tapine and this year Sutton, that output from your #3 middle is pretty good, especially when the guy is 22 and coming off major injury, and clearly suffering the same fitness issues the entire squad has got
Emre Guler is of absolutely no concern to me what so ever. Fix the fitness and he’s going to be fine
spot on, he's taking one of the early forwards runs not off the back of a good ptb.
I think part of where we are getting dominated is our early sets we are huddled and very 1 out - dummy half needs to be a lot better and our forwards need to get back onside quicker to stop the opposition defence compressing.
yeah wonderfully constructed straw man is spot on
