The Politics Thread 2021

[gangrenous]

Who do you believe gets elected in Australia if both sides run the same messaging in the current media environment?

[Mickey_Raider]

I want to know at what point “Labor’s messaging” or “Albos cut through” stops being the determinative factor in federal elections and the main question goes to what exactly are the achievements of this succession of LNP governments over the last 8 years apart from being constantly plagued by corruption and rapey scandals.

That’s not even a rhetorical question it would be nice if there is a true LNP believer amongst us who could answer that.

[papabear]

Going back a step.

Have the qld labor party got a media problem or a messaging problem RE the 30 mill they owe nsw?

Have they paid it and no media?

Or they continue to try and hold people over a barrel over debts racked up immorally?

The media is the media, some outlets like more conservative views some are more progressive.

Claiming the alp are hindered by the media and the LNP helped to me is about as honest as claiming trump is hindered and Biden helped by the American media.

In fact isn’t that trumps very argument with fake news.

Honestly, the nsw labor corruption stink had just about washed over me where I was considering an open slather on my vote when qld pulls this funny buggers...

[T_R]

Who do you believe gets elected in Australia if both sides run the same messaging in the current media environment?

Seems an odd question. They are hardly going to do that.

[T_R]

I want to know at what point “Labor’s messaging” or “Albos cut through” stops being the determinative factor in federal elections and the main question goes to what exactly are the achievements of this succession of LNP governments over the last 8 years apart from being constantly plagued by corruption and rapey scandals.

That’s not even a rhetorical question it would be nice if there is a true LNP believer amongst us who could answer that.

A stunningly strong and resilient economy, world-best or near world-best response to COVID 19...what issues do you think Australians vote on???

[gangrenous]

Who do you believe gets elected in Australia if both sides run the same messaging in the current media environment?

Seems an odd question. They are hardly going to do that.

Because that’s clearly the point of the question

[The Nickman]

Who do you believe gets elected in Australia if both sides run the same messaging in the current media environment?

Seems an odd question. They are hardly going to do that.

Because that’s clearly the point of the question

Well in that extremely bizarre hypothetical situation I’d say the incumbent would always win

[gangrenous]

Ignoring incumbency.

If people are just deciding based on what they see in the media.

[T_R]

Ignoring incumbency.

If people are just deciding based on what they see in the media.

Depends if they read The Guardian or try to sound out the words in the Daily Telegraph, I guess...or drive themselves into a self righteous frenzy on The Drum, or a rage on Sky@Night or whatever. Again, bit of an odd question.

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk

[The Nickman]

Ignoring incumbency.

If people are just deciding based on what they see in the media.

So nobody is currently in power and both parties have the same message?

[gangrenous]

Ignoring incumbency.

If people are just deciding based on what they see in the media.

Depends if they read The Guardian or try to sound out the words in the Daily Telegraph, I guess...or drive themselves into a self righteous frenzy on The Drum, or a rage on Sky@Night or whatever. Again, bit of an odd question.

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk

It’s not that odd.

Do you believe the majority of Australians take their info from left or right leaning sources primarily?

[T_R]

Ignoring incumbency.

If people are just deciding based on what they see in the media.

Depends if they read The Guardian or try to sound out the words in the Daily Telegraph, I guess...or drive themselves into a self righteous frenzy on The Drum, or a rage on Sky@Night or whatever. Again, bit of an odd question.

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk

It’s not that odd.

Do you believe the majority of Australians take their info from left or right leaning sources primarily?

Yep. Boring already. I take your point, and I disagree with it. I also believe that until Labor stops making these excuses " We wuz robbed by Murdoch" they'll be stuck in opposition. So, keep on lecturing into the echo chamber. Please.

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk

[gangrenous]

You’ve spent several posts with weasel words to avoid answering the question.

Safe to say then that you think the majority of Australians take their info from right leaning sources then?

[Mickey_Raider]

I want to know at what point “Labor’s messaging” or “Albos cut through” stops being the determinative factor in federal elections and the main question goes to what exactly are the achievements of this succession of LNP governments over the last 8 years apart from being constantly plagued by corruption and rapey scandals.

That’s not even a rhetorical question it would be nice if there is a true LNP believer amongst us who could answer that.

A stunningly strong and resilient economy, world-best or near world-best response to COVID 19...what issues do you think Australians vote on???

I mean, fair enough on the COVID front, notwithstanding the pretty real question of state v federal and how much proportional credit the latter should get for work done over the last 12 months. I think that the political capital gained from COVID has been well and truly banked.

But on the economy...really? We were literally in a per capita recession prior to COVID with very very anemic economic growth and sluggish inflation.

And the indicators of a healthy economy such as decent wages growth have been conspicuously missing literally since 2013. What happened in 2013? It is even a deliberate policy design of the LNP to suppress wages.

Have to strongly disagree on the economy point.

[The Nickman]

Ignoring incumbency.

If people are just deciding based on what they see in the media.

Depends if they read The Guardian or try to sound out the words in the Daily Telegraph, I guess...or drive themselves into a self righteous frenzy on The Drum, or a rage on Sky@Night or whatever. Again, bit of an odd question.

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk

It’s not that odd.

Do you believe the majority of Australians take their info from left or right leaning sources primarily?

Yep. Boring already. I take your point, and I disagree with it. I also believe that until Labor stops making these excuses " We wuz robbed by Murdoch" they'll be stuck in opposition. So, keep on lecturing into the echo chamber. Please.

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk

Well, when they weren’t blaming Murdoch in the last election they were blaming Clive Palmer... “we only lost cos Palmer paid billions of dollars!!”

Completely ignoring the fact not a single person who voted for Palmer would’ve ever preferenced Labor over the Libs anyway

[gangrenous]

Because investing large money in ad campaigns that say things like Labor will be adding a Trillion dollars in taxes and costs has no impact on undecided voters?

You can argue it’s not a deciding factor in the election. But I think trying to argue that it didn’t sway a single voter is being downright childish.

[The Nickman]

“Childish” is blaming the election loss on every possible excuse you can think of rather than the incompetence of your own party

“It’s the media’s fault”, “it’s Clive Palmer’s fault”, “it’s everyone else’s fault”

I told you before the election ScoMo would soundly beat Shorten. I was laughed off the platform.

[gangrenous]

That’s not what happened from me. Feel free to quote me.

You keep trying to take the argument everywhere else other than what I’m trying to say. If I had responded the way you did, but in favour of Labor then you would have howled me down for my incredible bias. I don’t give a **** what Labor are complaining about or what they need to do in a practical sense to regain power. They’re not the point I’m making.

My argument is that there is an imbalance in the media landscape that favours the Liberal party being re-elected.

It’s like raising with Broncos fans that they have a systemic advantage in winning the NRL. “Oh but we didn’t win last year”, “those advantages wouldn’t have saved you in that one game we won by 40”...

[T_R]

I want to know at what point “Labor’s messaging” or “Albos cut through” stops being the determinative factor in federal elections and the main question goes to what exactly are the achievements of this succession of LNP governments over the last 8 years apart from being constantly plagued by corruption and rapey scandals.

That’s not even a rhetorical question it would be nice if there is a true LNP believer amongst us who could answer that.

A stunningly strong and resilient economy, world-best or near world-best response to COVID 19...what issues do you think Australians vote on???

I mean, fair enough on the COVID front, notwithstanding the pretty real question of state v federal and how much proportional credit the latter should get for work done over the last 12 months. I think that the political capital gained from COVID has been well and truly banked.

But on the economy...really? We were literally in a per capita recession prior to COVID with very very anemic economic growth and sluggish inflation.

And the indicators of a healthy economy such as decent wages growth have been conspicuously missing literally since 2013. What happened in 2013? It is even a deliberate policy design of the LNP to suppress wages.

Have to strongly disagree on the economy point.

Thinking only of the economy, which countries in the world would you prefer to have been living in?

[The Nickman]

That’s not what happened from me. Feel free to quote me.

You keep trying to take the argument everywhere else other than what I’m trying to say. If I had responded the way you did, but in favour of Labor then you would have howled me down for my incredible bias. I don’t give a **** what Labor are complaining about or what they need to do in a practical sense to regain power. They’re not the point I’m making.

My argument is that there is an imbalance in the media landscape that favours the Liberal party being re-elected.

It’s like raising with Broncos fans that they have a systemic advantage in winning the NRL. “Oh but we didn’t win last year”, “those advantages wouldn’t have saved you in that one game we won by 40”...

Honestly, I'm still trying to understand what the hell you were talking about with a hypothetical situation where both parties have the same message and there's no incumbent (ie nobody is in power).

I couldn't be more confused.

[papabear]

That’s not what happened from me. Feel free to quote me.

You keep trying to take the argument everywhere else other than what I’m trying to say. If I had responded the way you did, but in favour of Labor then you would have howled me down for my incredible bias. I don’t give a **** what Labor are complaining about or what they need to do in a practical sense to regain power. They’re not the point I’m making.

My argument is that there is an imbalance in the media landscape that favours the Liberal party being re-elected.

It’s like raising with Broncos fans that they have a systemic advantage in winning the NRL. “Oh but we didn’t win last year”, “those advantages wouldn’t have saved you in that one game we won by 40”...

True

There is but that power balance can be shifted so it is less systematic and just the current state of play.

Unlike the broncos.

Have a leader who is popular, ie makes popular decisions and the media / clicks / eyeballs follow it.

[The Nickman]

That’s not what happened from me. Feel free to quote me.

You keep trying to take the argument everywhere else other than what I’m trying to say. If I had responded the way you did, but in favour of Labor then you would have howled me down for my incredible bias. I don’t give a **** what Labor are complaining about or what they need to do in a practical sense to regain power. They’re not the point I’m making.

My argument is that there is an imbalance in the media landscape that favours the Liberal party being re-elected.

It’s like raising with Broncos fans that they have a systemic advantage in winning the NRL. “Oh but we didn’t win last year”, “those advantages wouldn’t have saved you in that one game we won by 40”...

True

There is but that power balance can be shifted so it is less systematic and just the current state of play.

Unlike the broncos.

Have a leader who is popular, ie makes popular decisions and the media / clicks / eyeballs follow it.

... have some actual policies, actually stand for something, actually represent the working class instead of giving them lip service, etc etc

[Mickey_Raider]

I want to know at what point “Labor’s messaging” or “Albos cut through” stops being the determinative factor in federal elections and the main question goes to what exactly are the achievements of this succession of LNP governments over the last 8 years apart from being constantly plagued by corruption and rapey scandals.

That’s not even a rhetorical question it would be nice if there is a true LNP believer amongst us who could answer that.

A stunningly strong and resilient economy, world-best or near world-best response to COVID 19...what issues do you think Australians vote on???

I mean, fair enough on the COVID front, notwithstanding the pretty real question of state v federal and how much proportional credit the latter should get for work done over the last 12 months. I think that the political capital gained from COVID has been well and truly banked.

But on the economy...really? We were literally in a per capita recession prior to COVID with very very anemic economic growth and sluggish inflation.

And the indicators of a healthy economy such as decent wages growth have been conspicuously missing literally since 2013. What happened in 2013? It is even a deliberate policy design of the LNP to suppress wages.

Have to strongly disagree on the economy point.

Thinking only of the economy, which countries in the world would you prefer to have been living in?

So in my mind there are two ways you can look at "the economy"

1. Look at the actual real life indicators of what is happening on the ground. Unemployment, underemployment, low and stagnating wages, increasing inequality characterised by on one hand a perpetual FIRE (Finance, Insurance, Real Estate) sector boom and amongst the most woeful conditions for disadvantaged and unemployed people in the OECD.

In this sense the economy has been in pretty clear spiral since about 2012 and there are a multitude of comparable rich countries where the economy is much healthier than ours.

2. Then there is the cosmetic level economy. See the FIRE sector and also see laughably disingenuous indicators such as "running surpluses" (cf. draining money out of the private sector which as a corollary will cause private sector debt crises)

Not sure if you actually live in Tokyo, but Japan is a brilliant case study of a country whereby the above two lenses diverge.

[Botman]

You’ve spent several posts with weasel words to avoid answering the question.

Safe to say then that you think the majority of Australians take their info from right leaning sources then?

I think that's nothing more than an age demographic question though.
Because i think you can pretty cut that down by age.... the older you are, the more likely you're getting your information from traditional media sources that are for the most part, right leaning.
The younger you are, the more likely you're getting your info from sources via your social media profile which is personally cultivated to your own leaning, and those are overwhelmingly left.

And frankly, it seems rather obvious to me that as people get older, they generally seem to get more conservative with their politics. So these people who are older right now and are living and breathing Murdoch media, i would argue by and large, these people aren't not really ALP voters anyways. So whilst yes there is some impact, it's IMO largely no different to your carefully cultivated social media feed... they're both large echo chambers preaching their own choir.

I genuinely don't think its turning elections. I think ALP's inability to present a better alternative is the major reason why LNP have dominated the political landscape since John Howard came to power.

[T_R]

You’ve spent several posts with weasel words to avoid answering the question.

Safe to say then that you think the majority of Australians take their info from right leaning sources then?

I think that's nothing more than an age demographic question though.
Because i think you can pretty cut that down by age.... the older you are, the more likely you're getting your information from traditional media sources that are for the most part, right leaning.
The younger you are, the more likely you're getting your info from sources via your social media profile which is personally cultivated to your own leaning, and those are overwhelmingly left.

And frankly, it seems rather obvious to me that as people get older, they generally seem to get more conservative with their politics. So these people who are older right now and are living and breathing Murdoch media, i would argue by and large, these people aren't not really ALP voters anyways. So whilst yes there is some impact, it's IMO largely no different to your carefully cultivated social media feed... they're both large echo chambers preaching their own choir.

I genuinely don't think its turning elections. I think ALP's inability to present a better alternative is the major reason why LNP have dominated the political landscape since John Howard came to power.

It's why I couldn't be bothered engaging. People are drawn to the media they feel already represents their views. In the internet age, where it's not dished up to them on free to air, they simply go and find it online instead. The argument then inevitably shifts to the definition of 'right wing news', with the aggrieved revolutionary trying to convince the world that everything to the right of HIM is right wing...I've heard people sincerely argue that Fox News was 'left leaning' and that OAN represented conservative views. It's completely pointless - Labor and the Greens have pushed the narrative that they are being screwed by Murdoch to the point that no one even considers whether there's really a serious impact any more. Sky is lucky to hit 60,000 viewers during the 'right at night' period, yet it's constantly paraded as an example of Murdoch somehow tearing the heart out of Labor - despite the fact that at the 60,000 figure, the only people who are watching are already committed rednecks and people sitting in parliament house. Hell, ten times more are watching shiftless bogans marrying each other than are listening to Peta Credlin rant, and left of centre ABC News 24 consistently destroys it in the ratings.

It's just excuses, but they don't hold up.

[T_R]

I want to know at what point “Labor’s messaging” or “Albos cut through” stops being the determinative factor in federal elections and the main question goes to what exactly are the achievements of this succession of LNP governments over the last 8 years apart from being constantly plagued by corruption and rapey scandals.

That’s not even a rhetorical question it would be nice if there is a true LNP believer amongst us who could answer that.

A stunningly strong and resilient economy, world-best or near world-best response to COVID 19...what issues do you think Australians vote on???

I mean, fair enough on the COVID front, notwithstanding the pretty real question of state v federal and how much proportional credit the latter should get for work done over the last 12 months. I think that the political capital gained from COVID has been well and truly banked.

But on the economy...really? We were literally in a per capita recession prior to COVID with very very anemic economic growth and sluggish inflation.

And the indicators of a healthy economy such as decent wages growth have been conspicuously missing literally since 2013. What happened in 2013? It is even a deliberate policy design of the LNP to suppress wages.

Have to strongly disagree on the economy point.

Thinking only of the economy, which countries in the world would you prefer to have been living in?

So in my mind there are two ways you can look at "the economy"

1. Look at the actual real life indicators of what is happening on the ground. Unemployment, underemployment, low and stagnating wages, increasing inequality characterised by on one hand a perpetual FIRE (Finance, Insurance, Real Estate) sector boom and amongst the most woeful conditions for disadvantaged and unemployed people in the OECD.

In this sense the economy has been in pretty clear spiral since about 2012 and there are a multitude of comparable rich countries where the economy is much healthier than ours.

2. Then there is the cosmetic level economy. See the FIRE sector and also see laughably disingenuous indicators such as "running surpluses" (cf. draining money out of the private sector which as a corollary will cause private sector debt crises)

Not sure if you actually live in Tokyo, but Japan is a brilliant case study of a country whereby the above two lenses diverge.

You didn't answer the question. Where would you prefer to have been living for the last half decade?

[Botman]

That’s not what happened from me. Feel free to quote me.

You keep trying to take the argument everywhere else other than what I’m trying to say. If I had responded the way you did, but in favour of Labor then you would have howled me down for my incredible bias. I don’t give a **** what Labor are complaining about or what they need to do in a practical sense to regain power. They’re not the point I’m making.

My argument is that there is an imbalance in the media landscape that favours the Liberal party being re-elected.

It’s like raising with Broncos fans that they have a systemic advantage in winning the NRL. “Oh but we didn’t win last year”, “those advantages wouldn’t have saved you in that one game we won by 40”...

True

There is but that power balance can be shifted so it is less systematic and just the current state of play.

Unlike the broncos.

Have a leader who is popular, ie makes popular decisions and the media / clicks / eyeballs follow it.

Having a leader who is actually visible would be a helpful start
I mean can quibble about Gillard and Rudd in terms of what sort of leader they were and what they achieved, but even in opposition they had no problem finding a way to be seen and heard. Shorten even to some extent managed to keep himself involved in the daily discussion

Albo... i mean you could be forgiven for forgetting he's the leader, and maybe that's by design. Maybe the ALP don't see value in really making waves right now with the COVID pandemic being a boon for the sitting government and election is a long way off, so timing their run is probably apart of this.

But my personal media consumption is i basically watch no news outside of The Project on C10, Q&A on ABC... on the very rare occasion i read print media its usually the CT (though admittedly i haven't picked one up or read anything off their website that wasn't raiders related in YEARS)... my social media follows are left leaning and i dont think i follow any right leaning columnists or commentators, almost every single mate of mine (i'm 33) votes ALP/Greens, so the things they like, post and comment on that show up on my feed also are left leaning, so information stream is pretty clear... i almost no exposure to Murdoch politics, its almost exclusively left leaning (which is frankly how i vote and the stuff that interests me most, so that makes perfect sense)... and even STILL, Albo just rarely ever gets mentioned at all. Just absolute ghost town.

[Botman]

Hell, ten times more are watching shiftless bogans marrying each other than are listening to Peta Credlin rant

It has to be said, as a member of that group, i feel im making the responsible decision on viewing preference

[Mickey_Raider]

A stunningly strong and resilient economy, world-best or near world-best response to COVID 19...what issues do you think Australians vote on???

I mean, fair enough on the COVID front, notwithstanding the pretty real question of state v federal and how much proportional credit the latter should get for work done over the last 12 months. I think that the political capital gained from COVID has been well and truly banked.

But on the economy...really? We were literally in a per capita recession prior to COVID with very very anemic economic growth and sluggish inflation.

And the indicators of a healthy economy such as decent wages growth have been conspicuously missing literally since 2013. What happened in 2013? It is even a deliberate policy design of the LNP to suppress wages.

Have to strongly disagree on the economy point.

Thinking only of the economy, which countries in the world would you prefer to have been living in?

So in my mind there are two ways you can look at "the economy"

1. Look at the actual real life indicators of what is happening on the ground. Unemployment, underemployment, low and stagnating wages, increasing inequality characterised by on one hand a perpetual FIRE (Finance, Insurance, Real Estate) sector boom and amongst the most woeful conditions for disadvantaged and unemployed people in the OECD.

In this sense the economy has been in pretty clear spiral since about 2012 and there are a multitude of comparable rich countries where the economy is much healthier than ours.

2. Then there is the cosmetic level economy. See the FIRE sector and also see laughably disingenuous indicators such as "running surpluses" (cf. draining money out of the private sector which as a corollary will cause private sector debt crises)

Not sure if you actually live in Tokyo, but Japan is a brilliant case study of a country whereby the above two lenses diverge.

You didn't answer the question. Where would you prefer to have been living for the last half decade?

Personally, I haven't given thought to where I would prefer to have lived over the last 5 years as I have travelled extensively and am moving further into my professional career which doesn't afford me the time to travel as much. Doesn't really seem all that relevant to an analysis of the fundamentals of the Australian economy.

But because you asked, I don't know, maybe Argentina? Wouldn't mind getting back to the US at some stage too.

What about you?

[Mickey_Raider]

You’ve spent several posts with weasel words to avoid answering the question.

Safe to say then that you think the majority of Australians take their info from right leaning sources then?

I think that's nothing more than an age demographic question though.
Because i think you can pretty cut that down by age.... the older you are, the more likely you're getting your information from traditional media sources that are for the most part, right leaning.
The younger you are, the more likely you're getting your info from sources via your social media profile which is personally cultivated to your own leaning, and those are overwhelmingly left.

And frankly, it seems rather obvious to me that as people get older, they generally seem to get more conservative with their politics. So these people who are older right now and are living and breathing Murdoch media, i would argue by and large, these people aren't not really ALP voters anyways. So whilst yes there is some impact, it's IMO largely no different to your carefully cultivated social media feed... they're both large echo chambers preaching their own choir.

I genuinely don't think its turning elections. I think ALP's inability to present a better alternative is the major reason why LNP have dominated the political landscape since John Howard came to power.

It's why I couldn't be bothered engaging. People are drawn to the media they feel already represents their views. In the internet age, where it's not dished up to them on free to air, they simply go and find it online instead. The argument then inevitably shifts to the definition of 'right wing news', with the aggrieved revolutionary trying to convince the world that everything to the right of HIM is right wing...I've heard people sincerely argue that Fox News was 'left leaning' and that OAN represented conservative views. It's completely pointless - Labor and the Greens have pushed the narrative that they are being screwed by Murdoch to the point that no one even considers whether there's really a serious impact any more. Sky is lucky to hit 60,000 viewers during the 'right at night' period, yet it's constantly paraded as an example of Murdoch somehow tearing the heart out of Labor - despite the fact that at the 60,000 figure, the only people who are watching are already committed rednecks and people sitting in parliament house. Hell, ten times more are watching shiftless bogans marrying each other than are listening to Peta Credlin rant, and left of centre ABC News 24 consistently destroys it in the ratings.

It's just excuses, but they don't hold up.

What about print media? You don't reckon the main Sydney and Brisbane rags being dumped in every cafe in those metropolitan areas, openly screaming and campaigning against Labor matters? Please.

Also, is it not possible for Labor to be imperfect but the media imbalance to also be a factor? They aren't mutually exclusive.

You have to remember, elections are typically quite close run things. 4 seats and the result is flipped.

I think to disregard media as a factor is massively disingenuous.

[T_R]

I mean, fair enough on the COVID front, notwithstanding the pretty real question of state v federal and how much proportional credit the latter should get for work done over the last 12 months. I think that the political capital gained from COVID has been well and truly banked.

But on the economy...really? We were literally in a per capita recession prior to COVID with very very anemic economic growth and sluggish inflation.

And the indicators of a healthy economy such as decent wages growth have been conspicuously missing literally since 2013. What happened in 2013? It is even a deliberate policy design of the LNP to suppress wages.

Have to strongly disagree on the economy point.

Thinking only of the economy, which countries in the world would you prefer to have been living in?

So in my mind there are two ways you can look at "the economy"

1. Look at the actual real life indicators of what is happening on the ground. Unemployment, underemployment, low and stagnating wages, increasing inequality characterised by on one hand a perpetual FIRE (Finance, Insurance, Real Estate) sector boom and amongst the most woeful conditions for disadvantaged and unemployed people in the OECD.

In this sense the economy has been in pretty clear spiral since about 2012 and there are a multitude of comparable rich countries where the economy is much healthier than ours.

2. Then there is the cosmetic level economy. See the FIRE sector and also see laughably disingenuous indicators such as "running surpluses" (cf. draining money out of the private sector which as a corollary will cause private sector debt crises)

Not sure if you actually live in Tokyo, but Japan is a brilliant case study of a country whereby the above two lenses diverge.

You didn't answer the question. Where would you prefer to have been living for the last half decade?

Personally, I haven't given thought to where I would prefer to have lived over the last 5 years as I have travelled extensively and am moving further into my professional career which doesn't afford me the time to travel as much. Doesn't really seem all that relevant to an analysis of the fundamentals of the Australian economy.

But because you asked, I don't know, maybe Argentina? Wouldn't mind getting back to the US at some stage too.

What about you?

Well, as I asked from an economic viewpoint, I'm really not sure. I cannot think of any Western country with comparable workplace protections, a similar standard of living and matching economic performance.

The original point is that Australians vote out bad government, normally on poor economic results. That's not the case here.

[T_R]

You’ve spent several posts with weasel words to avoid answering the question.

Safe to say then that you think the majority of Australians take their info from right leaning sources then?

I think that's nothing more than an age demographic question though.
Because i think you can pretty cut that down by age.... the older you are, the more likely you're getting your information from traditional media sources that are for the most part, right leaning.
The younger you are, the more likely you're getting your info from sources via your social media profile which is personally cultivated to your own leaning, and those are overwhelmingly left.

And frankly, it seems rather obvious to me that as people get older, they generally seem to get more conservative with their politics. So these people who are older right now and are living and breathing Murdoch media, i would argue by and large, these people aren't not really ALP voters anyways. So whilst yes there is some impact, it's IMO largely no different to your carefully cultivated social media feed... they're both large echo chambers preaching their own choir.

I genuinely don't think its turning elections. I think ALP's inability to present a better alternative is the major reason why LNP have dominated the political landscape since John Howard came to power.

It's why I couldn't be bothered engaging. People are drawn to the media they feel already represents their views. In the internet age, where it's not dished up to them on free to air, they simply go and find it online instead. The argument then inevitably shifts to the definition of 'right wing news', with the aggrieved revolutionary trying to convince the world that everything to the right of HIM is right wing...I've heard people sincerely argue that Fox News was 'left leaning' and that OAN represented conservative views. It's completely pointless - Labor and the Greens have pushed the narrative that they are being screwed by Murdoch to the point that no one even considers whether there's really a serious impact any more. Sky is lucky to hit 60,000 viewers during the 'right at night' period, yet it's constantly paraded as an example of Murdoch somehow tearing the heart out of Labor - despite the fact that at the 60,000 figure, the only people who are watching are already committed rednecks and people sitting in parliament house. Hell, ten times more are watching shiftless bogans marrying each other than are listening to Peta Credlin rant, and left of centre ABC News 24 consistently destroys it in the ratings.

It's just excuses, but they don't hold up.

What about print media? You don't reckon the main Sydney and Brisbane rags being dumped in every cafe in those metropolitan areas, openly screaming and campaigning against Labor matters? Please.

Also, is it not possible for Labor to be imperfect but the media imbalance to also be a factor? They aren't mutually exclusive.

You have to remember, elections are typically quite close run things. 4 seats and the result is flipped.

I think to disregard media as a factor is massively disingenuous.

Maybe, but then to ignore massive (and highly targeted) spend from groups such as GetUp and the unions is equally or more so, but it never seems to come up as a factor in these conversations.

And my previous point stands - people tend to consume media that reinforces their own views. I don't think Murdoch rants flip many votes, just as I don't feel The Drum push many the other way.

[Botman]

What about print media? You don't reckon the main Sydney and Brisbane rags being dumped in every cafe in those metropolitan areas, openly screaming and campaigning against Labor matters? Please.

Again isn't this kind of age related?
Granted i don't get out cafes as much as i used to, young kids and all that, but when i do, i could pretty much bet my life on the fact that if someone is sitting there reading the newspaper, they're over 50... everyone else is just starring at their smart phone, scrolling through social media, laughing at memes or cat videos... snapchatting, messaging friends etc...

What cafes are you going to where couples or groups in their 30's and below are huddled wrestling for table space to read the paper? Sorry, i simply dont believe that's actually happening. Anywhere.

And those that of the age where physical print media is still something they desire... if you were to poll that group, what percentage of them do you think would be rusted on LNP voters? 80%? 90%? Maybe higher and certainly not lower. Again, it's preaching to the choir, if it's flipping any votes at all, it's at a level that is insignificant.

[Seiffert82]

https://www.smh.com.au/business/the-eco ... MjnR5-zaYA

Gittins joins the likes of Garnaut, Kohler et al in endorsing the delightfully monikered Mickeynomics.

Putting self imposed restraints in place under the rationale of good governance is not tantamount to being “financially constrained.”

“But Lowe can’t suspend the truth that money is “fungible” – all dollars are interchangeable. Funding the deficit indirectly rather than directly may be important from the perspective of good governance, but from the perspective of the economic effect, they’re the same.

Back to the views of Professor Garnaut: “The fiscal deficits should be mainly funded directly or indirectly by the Reserve Bank, at least until full employment is in sight.”

Why stop at full employment though?

If you're running with this flavour of economics then we may as well create enough money to build every homeless person a house, build national infrastructure for electric vehicles, kit out the Defence force with state of the art capability and give everyone a $10,000 stimulus bonus on the eve of the next election.

MMT is clearly one form of economic theory, but to me it completely ignores the most basic of economic principles in that money is just a vehicle to exchange goods and services of equal value. The MMT theory is obviously building momentum in some quarters, but there are still a lot of hairs on implementing something like this, including putting adequate controls or limits in place, as well as implementing a guaranteed employment program to manage wage growth and to control inflation.

Central banks can already create money, within the existing policy framework so we're already half way there. However, the principle of government managing debt and maintaining a budget balance sheet inherently keeps them accountable to the general public. Once you take those controls and expectations away I wouldn't trust any flavour of government to act responsibly in managing our resources.

[the bone]

There’s a reasonable chunk of the electorate that don’t actively follow politics or even news at all. But when an election rolls around, even for these people it is difficult to miss the political conversation, which they’re going to hear from traditional news sources because if they’re not political, it’s not going to be on their news feed. And when all they hear is a blitzkrieg from Murdoch media that Labor will raise their taxes, I find it very difficult to believe that doesn’t influence their vote. Yes, Labor have their own problems, but these things are not mutually exclusive.