Our attack when we are losing

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papabear
Gary Belcher
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Our attack when we are losing

Post by papabear »

Just from the eye test, to me, we attack as if we are under pressure to score on each play when we are losing as opposed to when we are winning.

Even against the tigers where we won in the end, you could see us wrestle back a bit of momentum but when it came to the crunch often went for the big play instead of the smart play and look it worked out in that game so who am I to complain about that.

This weekend, thinking about it, we really need to score first so we can settle into a game plan (presumably to build pressure through extra sets and solid ball movement to wherever coach decides to attack parras line or wherever they offer us opportunity), because when we score second, which we have in the last three matches our attack switches into catch up footy.

Ideally, I would like to see a game where we don't score first but are still comfortable building pressure through repeat sets and smart footy and running over the top of teams with our superior skill / power level. But for this weekend, hopefully we just score first!!

I should add, since we have been blessed with a lot of talent over the past 4 years often times we do score of the big play, which can give a mirage that was the right way of going about things..

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bonehead
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Re: Our attack when we are losing

Post by bonehead »

impatient, on Sunday we started rolling them down the middle but kept going wide. Would have liked us to persist in their middle and try some repeat sets

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zim
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Re: Our attack when we are losing

Post by zim »

A repeat set would have been huge considering their lack of troops.

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Re: Our attack when we are losing

Post by magoo »

I think it could be the favourite tag we have been annointed with, that causes the panic plays.

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amiafish
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Re: Our attack when we are losing

Post by amiafish »

I dunno. There's a hell of a lot of dummy-half running and one-out stuff going on at the moment. And yeah, while we do tend to go too lateral with sweep plays on the 4th and 5th tackles, we rarely use them on tackle 1 or 2 when they would be more effective against a defense that's jamming in on us.

I agree that we need more play through the centre, but not one-out stuff. How about some old-school turning the ball under for an edge player running a strong line? How about the FB and halves trailing the play looking for an offload from Horse or Papa? How about some forwards running some good strong lines, so that our sweep plays don't inevitably end with Charnze or Jack running out of space on the edge?

I just think we need a better attacking play-book. At the moment we are completely predictable and are relying on individual brilliance to break the line.

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Re: Our attack when we are losing

Post by bonehead »

amiafish wrote:I dunno. There's a hell of a lot of dummy-half running and one-out stuff going on at the moment. And yeah, while we do tend to go too lateral with sweep plays on the 4th and 5th tackles, we rarely use them on tackle 1 or 2 when they would be more effective against a defense that's jamming in on us.

I agree that we need more play through the centre, but not one-out stuff. How about some old-school turning the ball under for an edge player running a strong line? How about the FB and halves trailing the play looking for an offload from Horse or Papa? How about some forwards running some good strong lines, so that our sweep plays don't inevitably end with Charnze or Jack running out of space on the edge?

I just think we need a better attacking play-book. At the moment we are completely predictable and are relying on individual brilliance to break the line.
that's what I'm talking about, against a heavily depleted manly we failed to use those outside in plays that Hodgson is so good at, the go one way throw back the other. He did it a few times but once we dropped a couple in tt he middle we went back to trying to go around them and that's the hasler genius

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amiafish
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Re: Our attack when we are losing

Post by amiafish »

Yep. Sometimes when the execution lets us down, we throw the baby out with the bathwater and revert back to an inferior game plan. Better off sticking with the solid plan until we get it right.

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Re: Our attack when we are losing

Post by Seiffert82 »

That's where Hodgo let us down.

We were rolling up the middle OK and our left edge was carving them up when they got early ball.

Should have kept it simple and played what was in front of us. And yes, in those circumstances a repeat set or 3 would have been as valuable as a try.

We played like crap but still had them on toast if we didn't panic. When Trbojevic went off they had zero left in the tank.

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Re: Our attack when we are losing

Post by Timbo »

This has been our Achilles heel for years.

9/10 redzone sets we either go crossfield in the air or keep it in the hands to try to put something on. Unless you're down by more than two converted tries, this is not the smart play. The smart play is to roll it into their ingoal and keep the pressure on. If you do that three or four sets in a row, they will more likely than not crack.
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Re: Our attack when we are losing

Post by Neeeegz »

Our problem is when we go into our shell..
Play one out **** instead of moving it early, yeah, great plan.
We need to work on repeat sets, bodies in motion in attack..line speed in defence.
Of course it doesn't matter when you can't hold the ball for 15 sets either...

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Re: Our attack when we are losing

Post by afgtnk »

You could've given us around half a dozen repeat sets against Manly and I don't think it would've made a difference. We barely looked threatening all night.

The lack of players in motion running good lines and support play up the middle look to be the much bigger issues to me. You need to be able to run it up hard the, make a break and have someone there with decent speed to pop a pass to. It seems too often we don't.

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Re: Our attack when we are losing

Post by Azza »

afgtnk wrote:
June 25, 2020, 8:52 pm
You could've given us around half a dozen repeat sets against Manly and I don't think it would've made a difference. We barely looked threatening all night.

The lack of players in motion running good lines and support play up the middle look to be the much bigger issues to me. You need to be able to run it up hard the, make a break and have someone there with decent speed to pop a pass to. It seems too often we don't.
Agreed, we really missed Aiden out there.

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Re: Our attack when we are losing

Post by RedRaider »

Due to our errors and giving away penalties we only had 46% of the ball. I hope we have trained with the football most of the week to catch and hang onto the ball in tackles. If we do this and get an even share of the ball we will create enough chances. We had at least 4 opportunities we didn't finish against Manly and that was with a low percentage of possession. Maybe we were juiced due to all the defensive work. Maybe it was just a poor match from us. I thought Sticky would make at least one change to the side at right center. We were poor in that position both with and without the ball.

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Re: Our attack when we are losing

Post by bonehead »

I don't think scott is the problem, I'm laying a bit of the blame on George and taps plus look at cotric for the 2nd try - he held his man and missed him cold

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Coastalraider
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Re: Our attack when we are losing

Post by Coastalraider »

afgtnk wrote:
June 25, 2020, 8:52 pm
You could've given us around half a dozen repeat sets against Manly and I don't think it would've made a difference. We barely looked threatening all night.

The lack of players in motion running good lines and support play up the middle look to be the much bigger issues to me. You need to be able to run it up hard the, make a break and have someone there with decent speed to pop a pass to. It seems too often we don't.
Agree completely, but I think a lot of people are underestimating the fatigue factor of having to make 100 more tackles in the first half than Manly. And with the new rules every game is averaging an additional 50 tackles per half as well due to the faster sets. Running support lines and backing up is much harder to do when your under heavy fatigue and have been making an obscene amount of tackles in less time than you are used to.

That doesn’t excuse it, but there are a tonne of matches that follow a standard outline - 1 team gets in top early, and gets 60% odd possession for the first half. Team under pressure looks completely lost and not able to achieve any field position or momentum. Look clunky. Then half time comes and they get to rest. Straight after half time a comeback is launched, and at the 60 minute mark fatigue catches back up with them. Cue last nights game, parra/roosters, etc.

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greeneyed
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Re: Our attack when we are losing

Post by greeneyed »

bonehead wrote:
June 26, 2020, 7:29 am
I don't think scott is the problem, I'm laying a bit of the blame on George and taps plus look at cotric for the 2nd try - he held his man and missed him cold

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For the first try, too, Tapine and Williams are tight and Williams goes in, leaving some big spaces between Williams and Scott and Scott and Cotric... with Trbojevic sweeping, it’s three on two. Scott hesitates, while Trbojevic builds up pace. And then it’s too late.
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BadnMean
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Re: Our attack when we are losing

Post by BadnMean »

Coastalraider wrote:
June 26, 2020, 8:04 am
afgtnk wrote:
June 25, 2020, 8:52 pm
You could've given us around half a dozen repeat sets against Manly and I don't think it would've made a difference. We barely looked threatening all night.

The lack of players in motion running good lines and support play up the middle look to be the much bigger issues to me. You need to be able to run it up hard the, make a break and have someone there with decent speed to pop a pass to. It seems too often we don't.
Agree completely, but I think a lot of people are underestimating the fatigue factor of having to make 100 more tackles in the first half than Manly. And with the new rules every game is averaging an additional 50 tackles per half as well due to the faster sets. Running support lines and backing up is much harder to do when your under heavy fatigue and have been making an obscene amount of tackles in less time than you are used to.

That doesn’t excuse it, but there are a tonne of matches that follow a standard outline - 1 team gets in top early, and gets 60% odd possession for the first half. Team under pressure looks completely lost and not able to achieve any field position or momentum. Look clunky. Then half time comes and they get to rest. Straight after half time a comeback is launched, and at the 60 minute mark fatigue catches back up with them. Cue last nights game, parra/roosters, etc.
RedRaider wrote:
June 25, 2020, 10:41 pm
Due to our errors and giving away penalties we only had 46% of the ball. I hope we have trained with the football most of the week to catch and hang onto the ball in tackles. If we do this and get an even share of the ball we will create enough chances. We had at least 4 opportunities we didn't finish against Manly and that was with a low percentage of possession. Maybe we were juiced due to all the defensive work. Maybe it was just a poor match from us. I thought Sticky would make at least one change to the side at right center. We were poor in that position both with and without the ball.
Watching a lot of matches this year- I agree. That little spark that makes players dangerous is dimmed down when you make 100 extra tackles. And the "get buried early, enough energy for a little rally after half-time, then burned out" is definitely a pattern across a lot of matches.

You could fairly often weather an early storm and grind your way back last year- it seems the climb is a lot steeper this year because if you get buried down your end, without much ball for 10 minutes, the workload is greater with the extra speed.

My heart sank when Scott dropped *another* early ruck cold last week because I'd seen exactly that scenario play out in so many matches this year. Under fatigue, execution suffers and it needs perfect execution to break down good teams.

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Re: Our attack when we are losing

Post by amiafish »

greeneyed wrote:
June 26, 2020, 9:06 am
bonehead wrote:
June 26, 2020, 7:29 am
I don't think scott is the problem, I'm laying a bit of the blame on George and taps plus look at cotric for the 2nd try - he held his man and missed him cold

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For the first try, too, Tapine and Williams are tight and Williams goes in, leaving some big spaces between Williams and Scott and Scott and Cotric... with Trbojevic sweeping, it’s three on two. Scott hesitates, while Trbojevic builds up pace. And then it’s too late.
Williams often leaves space to his outside (like an old-fashioned winger using the sideline), but I can't remember him actually getting beaten on the outside once. The problem is that Scott keeps assuming that Williams is beaten when he's not. Scott needs to stay out on his man and if he does, Williams probably won't feel comfortable staying in so tight and leaving such a big gap anyway!

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Re: Our attack when we are losing

Post by Coastalraider »

BadnMean wrote:
June 26, 2020, 9:28 am
Coastalraider wrote:
June 26, 2020, 8:04 am
afgtnk wrote:
June 25, 2020, 8:52 pm
You could've given us around half a dozen repeat sets against Manly and I don't think it would've made a difference. We barely looked threatening all night.

The lack of players in motion running good lines and support play up the middle look to be the much bigger issues to me. You need to be able to run it up hard the, make a break and have someone there with decent speed to pop a pass to. It seems too often we don't.
Agree completely, but I think a lot of people are underestimating the fatigue factor of having to make 100 more tackles in the first half than Manly. And with the new rules every game is averaging an additional 50 tackles per half as well due to the faster sets. Running support lines and backing up is much harder to do when your under heavy fatigue and have been making an obscene amount of tackles in less time than you are used to.

That doesn’t excuse it, but there are a tonne of matches that follow a standard outline - 1 team gets in top early, and gets 60% odd possession for the first half. Team under pressure looks completely lost and not able to achieve any field position or momentum. Look clunky. Then half time comes and they get to rest. Straight after half time a comeback is launched, and at the 60 minute mark fatigue catches back up with them. Cue last nights game, parra/roosters, etc.
RedRaider wrote:
June 25, 2020, 10:41 pm
Due to our errors and giving away penalties we only had 46% of the ball. I hope we have trained with the football most of the week to catch and hang onto the ball in tackles. If we do this and get an even share of the ball we will create enough chances. We had at least 4 opportunities we didn't finish against Manly and that was with a low percentage of possession. Maybe we were juiced due to all the defensive work. Maybe it was just a poor match from us. I thought Sticky would make at least one change to the side at right center. We were poor in that position both with and without the ball.
Watching a lot of matches this year- I agree. That little spark that makes players dangerous is dimmed down when you make 100 extra tackles. And the "get buried early, enough energy for a little rally after half-time, then burned out" is definitely a pattern across a lot of matches.

You could fairly often weather an early storm and grind your way back last year- it seems the climb is a lot steeper this year because if you get buried down your end, without much ball for 10 minutes, the workload is greater with the extra speed.

My heart sank when Scott dropped *another* early ruck cold last week because I'd seen exactly that scenario play out in so many matches this year. Under fatigue, execution suffers and it needs perfect execution to break down good teams.
Correct, and the other difference is not only do you have to do more work, but the defensive team now has lost the ability to control the tempo of that work with a wrestle or a strategic penalty. Fatigue leads to players being slow to get out of the tackle, which leads to 6 again etc etc.

I love the new style of footy, but the team under defensive pressure has lost all ability to have a real I put into the match. Even if the attacking team knock on, or throws a forward, you still have to start your set within your own half under fatigue. Even if you somehow get a penalty and get up the other end, fatigue is showing that you are less effective when you are there.

Half time is the real circuit breaker, and we simply can’t afford to give away errors in our own half early, like we have been.

Knights, set 1 CNK knocks on the bomb 10m out, Knights score 4 min.

Tigers, set 1, kick charged down, set2, Scott knocks on 40m, next 10 min the tackle count is 37-18. We get tackled out of our half just twice. Tigers score.

Manly, 1st set, Scott knocks on 30m. You know the story.

We need to stop getting on the back foot in the first 5 minutes.

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greeneyed
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Re: Our attack when we are losing

Post by greeneyed »

amiafish wrote:
June 26, 2020, 9:31 am
greeneyed wrote:
June 26, 2020, 9:06 am
bonehead wrote:
June 26, 2020, 7:29 am
I don't think scott is the problem, I'm laying a bit of the blame on George and taps plus look at cotric for the 2nd try - he held his man and missed him cold

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For the first try, too, Tapine and Williams are tight and Williams goes in, leaving some big spaces between Williams and Scott and Scott and Cotric... with Trbojevic sweeping, it’s three on two. Scott hesitates, while Trbojevic builds up pace. And then it’s too late.
Williams often leaves space to his outside (like an old-fashioned winger using the sideline), but I can't remember him actually getting beaten on the outside once. The problem is that Scott keeps assuming that Williams is beaten when he's not. Scott needs to stay out on his man and if he does, Williams probably won't feel comfortable staying in so tight and leaving such a big gap anyway!
To be fair to Scott, in that moment, he's probably thinking... "who's my man?" Trbojevic or the centre. He had to go for Trbojevic, but you can understand why he might have hesitated.
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