The HIA rules

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Ultima
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The HIA rules

Post by Ultima » August 27, 2019, 12:17 pm

So after watching Graham Annesley give his break down of the second stoppage in as many weeks in regards to the HIA I was trying to find out what exactly the rules for it are. I know it doesn't count as an interchange as long as they get back on the field with-in 15 minutes but how does that part of it work? Do you have to give up an interchange you then get back afterwards? If not does that mean it's basically a free interchange regardless when in the final 15 minutes?

Also in regards to it, for some players who might be good with a quick 15 minute break, is the rule exploitable? It seems to be according to what was said in the weekly football briefing that it's because he "stumbled" when getting back up. So all we need to do to get a free 15 minute rest for a forward is get them to stumble a bit? Could you go to the level of faking a head injury to get a rest then come back on with fresher legs for no cost?

Either way it seems they aren't even considering changing the rule, which is insane considering how much of an unnecessary stoppage it is. Sure there are situations where it is warranted but if stumbling when getting up means you get a free interchange and get to stop the attacking team while they are rolling up field I can see a lot more "stumbling" happening in the finals!

Link to video:
https://www.raiders.com.au/news/2019/08 ... -round-23/
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Re: The HIA Rules

Post by Peter » August 27, 2019, 1:07 pm

Play should never be stopped for an interchange happening 40 metres in back play unless the bloke is completely knocked out or unable to move from the ground without the aid of trainers, medicab etc.

The rule was definitely exploited on the weekend. The interchange could have easily taken place without interference from the trainers.

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Re: The HIA Rules

Post by -TW- » August 27, 2019, 1:13 pm

Unfortunately it's the fast food litigation world we live in.

Don't stop play, player gets a career ending injury, sues NRL for not adhering to duty of care

How to stop it? Any HIA is exclusion from the game instantly.

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Re: The HIA Rules

Post by Northern Raider » August 27, 2019, 1:22 pm

No easy answer to that one. No doubt the NRL as a whole will look at ways to refine the processes to get the right balance between player welfare and practical application.

Remember the Head Bin being introduced in the 80's. They were forced into changing that rule after Manly started exploiting it in '87 to give their forwards a rest.
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Re: The HIA Rules

Post by edwahu » August 27, 2019, 1:45 pm

Ultima wrote:
August 27, 2019, 12:17 pm
So after watching Graham Annesley give his break down of the second stoppage in as many weeks in regards to the HIA I was trying to find out what exactly the rules for it are. I know it doesn't count as an interchange as long as they get back on the field with-in 15 minutes but how does that part of it work? Do you have to give up an interchange you then get back afterwards? If not does that mean it's basically a free interchange regardless when in the final 15 minutes?

Also in regards to it, for some players who might be good with a quick 15 minute break, is the rule exploitable? It seems to be according to what was said in the weekly football briefing that it's because he "stumbled" when getting back up. So all we need to do to get a free 15 minute rest for a forward is get them to stumble a bit? Could you go to the level of faking a head injury to get a rest then come back on with fresher legs for no cost?

Either way it seems they aren't even considering changing the rule, which is insane considering how much of an unnecessary stoppage it is. Sure there are situations where it is warranted but if stumbling when getting up means you get a free interchange and get to stop the attacking team while they are rolling up field I can see a lot more "stumbling" happening in the finals!

Link to video:
https://www.raiders.com.au/news/2019/08 ... -round-23/
I guess these are the rules in question
https://www.nrl.com/siteassets/operatio ... league.pdf

A. Recognising the injury – (suspecting concussion)
(i) Visible clues - when to suspect concussion:
- Loss of consciousness or non-responsive
- Lying on the ground - not moving, or slow to stand
- Unsteady on feet / balance problems / poor coordination
- Grabbing / clutching at head
- Dazed, blank or vacant look
- Confused / not aware of plays or events

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Re: The HIA rules

Post by greeneyed » August 27, 2019, 3:01 pm

The teams are certainly exploiting the HIA as a free interchange. And they're also exploiting the stoppage rule. The referees should not be required to stop play if the player can safely leave the field without it.
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Re: The HIA rules

Post by Matt » August 27, 2019, 3:25 pm

TW is right, duty of care is too bigger deal, and far too costly to get wrong, which is why the HIA rules exist. All stems from the NFL concussion stuff in the US.

Anyway, what it means is, the Refs MUST stop play if they are asked too. They dont have a medical degree, therefore cant rule if its real or fake. Its duty of care.

Yes, 100%, this rule is being exploited by teams. Obviously, not every HIA is BS, as players get ruled out often too. However, we have all seen players go down clutching a shoulder or knee then all of a sudden the trainer drags them off tapping his head.

As far as injury outside head knocks, there is no perfect solution. However, I think football (soccer) do it a good way. If play is stopped for a player, the player must leave the field of play. If they are OK to continue, the Ref will wave them back on once they are happy to do so - time period is often related to the delay time and nuisance value. In the 'good old days', players would be dragged out the back of play to be tended too and the game would continue - I think we all remember the De Vere staple incident. This is essentially bringing that rule back. The big this here is, the play goes on while that player is being tended too.

If you wish to take this further, then the player who went down/ stayed down must leave the field, return to the bench OR go up the tunnel to the dressing room for treatment, before returning to the field. If said player is replaced that's an interchange like any other injury related interchange. If you want to try your luck with 12 men for a while, so be it. Again, the Ref will wave the player on when they see fit too - at refs discretion as per soccer.

I have to say, I prefer this approach, because teams wont want to defend their goal lines for any length of time with 12. If you force a player to their bench, or even up the tunnel, then usually that will be a lot of distance for that player to cover to get off and back on again, which eats up time. This might be considered less important when its a Lui, Boyle or Capewell, but if its a Johnson, DCE or Hodgson teams might think twice about staying down.

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Re: The HIA rules

Post by I'm Bate Man » August 27, 2019, 4:06 pm

Making them an interchange would stop the fake ones, but it would also stop the borderline ones which be detrimental to the entire point. I don’t know how they stop it.
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The HIA rules

Post by greeneyed » August 27, 2019, 4:54 pm

Matt wrote:TW is right, duty of care is too bigger deal, and far too costly to get wrong, which is why the HIA rules exist. All stems from the NFL concussion stuff in the US.

Anyway, what it means is, the Refs MUST stop play if they are asked too. They dont have a medical degree, therefore cant rule if its real or fake. Its duty of care.

Yes, 100%, this rule is being exploited by teams. Obviously, not every HIA is BS, as players get ruled out often too. However, we have all seen players go down clutching a shoulder or knee then all of a sudden the trainer drags them off tapping his head.

As far as injury outside head knocks, there is no perfect solution. However, I think football (soccer) do it a good way. If play is stopped for a player, the player must leave the field of play. If they are OK to continue, the Ref will wave them back on once they are happy to do so - time period is often related to the delay time and nuisance value. In the 'good old days', players would be dragged out the back of play to be tended too and the game would continue - I think we all remember the De Vere staple incident. This is essentially bringing that rule back. The big this here is, the play goes on while that player is being tended too.

If you wish to take this further, then the player who went down/ stayed down must leave the field, return to the bench OR go up the tunnel to the dressing room for treatment, before returning to the field. If said player is replaced that's an interchange like any other injury related interchange. If you want to try your luck with 12 men for a while, so be it. Again, the Ref will wave the player on when they see fit too - at refs discretion as per soccer.

I have to say, I prefer this approach, because teams wont want to defend their goal lines for any length of time with 12. If you force a player to their bench, or even up the tunnel, then usually that will be a lot of distance for that player to cover to get off and back on again, which eats up time. This might be considered less important when its a Lui, Boyle or Capewell, but if its a Johnson, DCE or Hodgson teams might think twice about staying down.
If the player goes off for an HIA, they must go into the sheds for the test now. That isn’t stopping the clubs exploiting the rules now.


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Re: The HIA rules

Post by gergreg » August 27, 2019, 6:27 pm

I don't understand the current interchange rules at all. Why can't teams make an interchange whenever they like? Why does it even need to be done during a stoppage? There is an interchange official so why can't teams do it whenever they want. Would solve the problem straight away. The majority of times players are able to walk/run with a head knock.


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Re: The HIA rules

Post by -TW- » August 27, 2019, 6:41 pm

They can except at a scrum

The HIA stuff is the trainer's ask the ref to stop the game as they believe the player is in "danger". You can drag a player for a HIA whenever you like, teams just use it as a ploy to stop momentum now

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Re: The HIA rules

Post by gergreg » August 27, 2019, 7:09 pm

So they let a bloke continue to run around for a few minutes but then a trainer makes a decision that a player is no longer capable of getting off the field unaccompanied. The NRL is so dumb.

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Re: The HIA rules

Post by -TW- » August 27, 2019, 7:19 pm

The club doctor reviews the footage in the head bunker and then calls for them to come off

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Re: The HIA rules

Post by Matt » August 27, 2019, 7:59 pm

greeneyed wrote:
August 27, 2019, 4:54 pm
Matt wrote:TW is right, duty of care is too bigger deal, and far too costly to get wrong, which is why the HIA rules exist. All stems from the NFL concussion stuff in the US.

Anyway, what it means is, the Refs MUST stop play if they are asked too. They dont have a medical degree, therefore cant rule if its real or fake. Its duty of care.

Yes, 100%, this rule is being exploited by teams. Obviously, not every HIA is BS, as players get ruled out often too. However, we have all seen players go down clutching a shoulder or knee then all of a sudden the trainer drags them off tapping his head.

As far as injury outside head knocks, there is no perfect solution. However, I think football (soccer) do it a good way. If play is stopped for a player, the player must leave the field of play. If they are OK to continue, the Ref will wave them back on once they are happy to do so - time period is often related to the delay time and nuisance value. In the 'good old days', players would be dragged out the back of play to be tended too and the game would continue - I think we all remember the De Vere staple incident. This is essentially bringing that rule back. The big this here is, the play goes on while that player is being tended too.

If you wish to take this further, then the player who went down/ stayed down must leave the field, return to the bench OR go up the tunnel to the dressing room for treatment, before returning to the field. If said player is replaced that's an interchange like any other injury related interchange. If you want to try your luck with 12 men for a while, so be it. Again, the Ref will wave the player on when they see fit too - at refs discretion as per soccer.

I have to say, I prefer this approach, because teams wont want to defend their goal lines for any length of time with 12. If you force a player to their bench, or even up the tunnel, then usually that will be a lot of distance for that player to cover to get off and back on again, which eats up time. This might be considered less important when its a Lui, Boyle or Capewell, but if its a Johnson, DCE or Hodgson teams might think twice about staying down.
If the player goes off for an HIA, they must go into the sheds for the test now. That isn’t stopping the clubs exploiting the rules now.


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Yes, but he is also replaced as a free interchange. Thus you are never down a player.

My injury rule would mean that teams are down to 12 for the period of time the player stays down.

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Re: The HIA rules

Post by gangrenous » August 27, 2019, 8:22 pm

Don’t understand Matt, when would a team be fielding 12 and why?

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Re: The HIA rules

Post by gergreg » August 27, 2019, 8:25 pm

-TW- wrote:The club doctor reviews the footage in the head bunker and then calls for them to come off

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Yes I understand that process but there really is no reason to stop play is there. The player has continued to play so he can just come off the field.

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Re: The HIA rules

Post by pickles » August 29, 2019, 9:21 am

It seems like the rule exists to ensure that once a player has been ruled to need assessment for a HIA they are not out at any further risk and that is why play is stopped.

Annesley explained it pretty well but from my perspective missed the key area that they need to track. This is the time from when the doctor determines a HIA is required and when the trainer communicates this to the linesman.

This isn’t clear from the footage but I would be curious as to that timing as the linesman wasn’t approached while manly were on the attack but was almost as soon as the raiders got the ball. This could have been coincidence but that time needs to be tracked to ensure that teams aren’t gaming the system. It wouldn’t be hard to calculate how long it took to get to a touchy and have hefty fines for any breech.

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Re: The HIA rules

Post by Ultima » August 29, 2019, 9:59 am

edwahu wrote:
August 27, 2019, 1:45 pm
- Unsteady on feet / balance problems / poor coordination
- Dazed, blank or vacant look
- Confused / not aware of plays or events
Based on that Sezer is in need of constant HIAs, certainly the last one! :P
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Re: The HIA rules

Post by Ultima » August 29, 2019, 10:07 am

In general this just goes more against the refs having any real feel for the game. I've often wondered why we never seem to have any ex-players taking up the reffing spots. You would assume out of the all the players who retire or don't get another contract that becoming a ref has some sort of incentive for them so they can remain involved with the game and the are constantly trying to get refs to have a better "feel for the game" so why not get more ex-players in there?

Some refs just seem to be in a totally different world when it comes to what they choose to crack down on and when, example how a single poor play the ball was penalised last weekend when there were at least twenty others they let go...

I believe the refs should all be locked into the bunker for a day mid week every week to go over and review as a team decisions as to why some things were let go and why some weren't. Why some teams do obviously deliberate penalties three times in a row and don't get sin binned while others get thrown for ten much sooner. Just watch the ENTIRE game with the ref feed audio from a wide shot angle and go through each and every game. It can't be that much to ask can it?

From that you would hope the refs can start making some recommendations on where rules need to be changed, relaxed, etc. Obviously including the BS that is the current HIA rules.
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Re: The HIA rules

Post by Matt » August 29, 2019, 10:28 am

gangrenous wrote:
August 27, 2019, 8:22 pm
Don’t understand Matt, when would a team be fielding 12 and why?
For the period of time it takes said injured player to be checked out and cleared to return to the play.

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Re: The HIA rules

Post by Sid » August 29, 2019, 10:44 am

I'm all for player safety, but I wouldn't go as far as creating a topic to announce that The HIA Rules
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Re: The HIA rules

Post by Billy Walker » August 30, 2019, 4:48 pm

What happens if you take HIA assessments out of the hands of club doctors an appoint a neutral match day doctor who makes the call for both teams who needs to come off for a HIA assessment and when?

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Re: The HIA rules

Post by Dr Zaius » August 30, 2019, 8:06 pm

So a player was just summoned from the field by the off field doctor in the Broncos v Parra game. The game wasn't stopped, he simply went off. Why do they stop the game some occasions and not others? Is there a rule that the game will only be stopped when the opposing team is pressing an attacking advantage?
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Re: The HIA rules

Post by greeneyed » August 30, 2019, 8:16 pm

Dr Zaius wrote:
August 30, 2019, 8:06 pm
So a player was just summoned from the field by the off field doctor in the Broncos v Parra game. The game wasn't stopped, he simply went off. Why do they stop the game some occasions and not others? Is there a rule that the game will only be stopped when the opposing team is pressing an attacking advantage?
You have to wonder.

But what’s worse, he should have gone off when the play was stopped, for a lengthy period, at the time of the incident!

Passed the HIA apparently.
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Re: The HIA rules

Post by cat » September 1, 2019, 8:41 pm

the clubs wont agree to an independent doctor doing the HIA stuff, they claim the club doctor knows the players best.

the clubs do get please explain emails, but they dont go far

parra was famous for the 20min forward hia fail last year

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