Fading fast

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The Rickman
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Fading fast

Post by The Rickman » July 3, 2019, 9:49 am

It's pretty obvious to me the team STILL has this same issue of being world-beaters for the first 30 minutes and then completely fading out for the rest of the game that has plagued us for 2016-17. Only difference is that this year we've managed to hang on to a few of the games we would've lost in the previous two seasons.

But the Eels and Sharks games were absolute proof to me that the team still seems incapable for whatever reason of going on with the job. Does our structure completely fall apart? Do we get overconfident and forget how to play solid football? Do we lack fitness? What is the real issue here?

Keen to hear people's suggestions to how we learn to go on with the job once we race out to a lead. We shouldn't be losing from any early greater than 12 point lead hardly ever, the amount of times we've done it now the last few seasons is absolutely ridiculous. It's more than a coincidence now.
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Re: Fading Fast

Post by Ronny P » July 3, 2019, 10:00 am

Here my thoughts. All NRL sides generally get into the grind of field position for the first 15-20 of any game. Then the errors set in. This is where a good half starts upping his touches and controlling the game either through simple ruck control or good kicking game. Watch any origin, semi final or grand final with the likes of Thurston, Cronk etc who’s ball touches lift dramatically in these stages. I think the Raiders problem is we think we need to score of each set, even when we are in front with 10 to go. Then the errors kick in and the stupid passes or whatever it is. If the opposition is on a roll stop the momentum with field position and time wasting through scrums etc after a decent kick in to touch or a repeat set. My thoughts only and I believe traditional halfbacks win and ice games.


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Re: Fading fast

Post by BadnMean » July 3, 2019, 11:25 am

If we really want to do it differently, with the cattle we have, we could try not assuming that every hooker must be a Cameron Smith 80 minute miracle and give Hodgo a rest during the game. It throws something different at the other team, improves our middle defence and would allow Hodgo to not be making critical decisions at the point of complete exhaustion during crucial stages because he's just made 40 tackles on Junior Paulo and Gallen etc.

Hodgo is smart enough that given a break he'd figure out what needs to be done next in the game and then implement it when he gets back on. Rest him 10 mins either side of halftime (give or take 5 minutes).

Sezer would also get more into the game when Hodgo is off and get more used to taking the reins and demanding the ball.

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Re: Fading fast

Post by papabear » July 3, 2019, 11:29 am

BadnMean wrote:
July 3, 2019, 11:25 am
If we really want to do it differently, with the cattle we have, we could try not assuming that every hooker must be a Cameron Smith 80 minute miracle and give Hodgo a rest during the game. It throws something different at the other team, improves our middle defence and would allow Hodgo to not be making critical decisions at the point of complete exhaustion during crucial stages because he's just made 40 tackles on Junior Paulo and Gallen etc.

Hodgo is smart enough that given a break he'd figure out what needs to be done next in the game and then implement it when he gets back on. Rest him 10 mins either side of halftime (give or take 5 minutes).

Sezer would also get more into the game when Hodgo is off and get more used to taking the reins and demanding the ball.
Exactly this, see my dummy half thread.

But I cant emphasise how important good dummy half play is and how obvious our drop off becomes when we leave a bloke on there for so long.

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Re: Fading fast

Post by simo » July 3, 2019, 11:40 am

Our defence goes to crap once the offloads start flowing. Second phase play seems to absolutely destroy us while we continue to try for high completions. We make just as many errors when we try and play safe with the ball as we do when we move it around.
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Re: Fading fast

Post by simo » July 3, 2019, 11:41 am

Theres also nothing tiring about defending against safe, completion rate based attack so youre just asking the opposition to through more at you
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Re: Fading fast

Post by Ronny P » July 3, 2019, 11:48 am

simo wrote:Theres also nothing tiring about defending against safe, completion rate based attack so youre just asking the opposition to through more at you
Why is it that completion rate usually determines a game?


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Re: Fading fast

Post by simo » July 3, 2019, 11:52 am

Ronny P wrote:
July 3, 2019, 11:48 am
simo wrote:Theres also nothing tiring about defending against safe, completion rate based attack so youre just asking the opposition to through more at you
Why is it that completion rate usually determines a game?


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It really doesnt. Game plans, player quality and commitment usually determine the game. Completion rates are a by product of a team playing well. A team aiming to just complete sets is playing the wrong game
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Re: Fading fast

Post by gergreg » July 3, 2019, 12:02 pm

simo wrote:
Ronny P wrote:
July 3, 2019, 11:48 am
simo wrote:Theres also nothing tiring about defending against safe, completion rate based attack so youre just asking the opposition to through more at you
Why is it that completion rate usually determines a game?


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It really doesnt. Game plans, player quality and commitment usually determine the game. Completion rates are a by product of a team playing well. A team aiming to just complete sets is playing the wrong game
Don't the Bulldogs have one of the higher completion rates in the comp?

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Re: Fading fast

Post by Matt » July 3, 2019, 12:02 pm

Ronny P wrote:
July 3, 2019, 11:48 am
simo wrote:Theres also nothing tiring about defending against safe, completion rate based attack so youre just asking the opposition to through more at you
Why is it that completion rate usually determines a game?


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Dogs have the best completion rate in the comp. Where are they on the ladder?

Its not just completing, its also what you do with it. Its calculated risks, set plays, knowing when to offload and when to hold it, when to kick early and when to run it. Teams are looking for a min high 70's, but ideally mid 80s completions. You still have to throw a few shots though, which can lead to errors.

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Re: Fading fast

Post by Matt » July 3, 2019, 12:08 pm

I think our boys get to a lead and try to defend it by playing safe footy.
The issue is, its 'safe footy', not playing the percentages.
Which is a mentality switch, not a tactical switch.
If you play the percentages, your still playing to a game plan and executing it.
If you play 'safe footy', your trying not to make mistakes, which ironically often leads to them, because the focus of what you are doing has changed. Its that old adage, of trying not to lose, rather than trying to win.

Hopefully that makes sense.

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Re: Fading fast

Post by simo » July 3, 2019, 12:14 pm

Matt wrote:
July 3, 2019, 12:08 pm
I think our boys get to a lead and try to defend it by playing safe footy.
The issue is, its 'safe footy', not playing the percentages.
Which is a mentality switch, not a tactical switch.
If you play the percentages, your still playing to a game plan and executing it.
If you play 'safe footy', your trying not to make mistakes, which ironically often leads to them, because the focus of what you are doing has changed. Its that old adage, of trying not to lose, rather than trying to win.

Hopefully that makes sense.
Yeah, you’re equally confusingly saying the same as i am.
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Re: Fading fast

Post by The Rickman » July 3, 2019, 12:23 pm

Matt wrote:
July 3, 2019, 12:08 pm
I think our boys get to a lead and try to defend it by playing safe footy.
The issue is, its 'safe footy', not playing the percentages.
Which is a mentality switch, not a tactical switch.
If you play the percentages, your still playing to a game plan and executing it.
If you play 'safe footy', your trying not to make mistakes, which ironically often leads to them, because the focus of what you are doing has changed. Its that old adage, of trying not to lose, rather than trying to win.

Hopefully that makes sense.
Is that true though? Because our version of "safe football" when we're in front seems to be a lot of ad-lib garbage and brain explosions.

I feel like it's the opposite, we get completely overconfident and completely throw our gameplan out the window once we get in front.

If it's good enough to get up to 18-nil at even time, it should be good enough to go on with the job and win at least 24-12.
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Re: Fading fast

Post by SeeBee101 » July 3, 2019, 12:58 pm

simo wrote:
July 3, 2019, 11:40 am
Our defence goes to crap once the offloads start flowing. Second phase play seems to absolutely destroy us while we continue to try for high completions. We make just as many errors when we try and play safe with the ball as we do when we move it around.
I've said it in previous posts but every time we get a lead we stop controlling the ruck and the offloads flow. I swear we are the worst team when it comes to wrapping the ball up....

It happened in the Manly game, Sharks nearly got us doing the same and again it happened on the weekend. We struggle when teams throw the rule book out the window and start to play ad-lib. The 5-8 metres they made in initial contact turns into 20-30 metres every time this happens. Its a game killer....

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Re: Fading fast

Post by The Rickman » July 3, 2019, 1:02 pm

SeeBee101 wrote:
July 3, 2019, 12:58 pm
simo wrote:
July 3, 2019, 11:40 am
Our defence goes to crap once the offloads start flowing. Second phase play seems to absolutely destroy us while we continue to try for high completions. We make just as many errors when we try and play safe with the ball as we do when we move it around.
I've said it in previous posts but every time we get a lead we stop controlling the ruck and the offloads flow. I swear we are the worst team when it comes to wrapping the ball up....

It happened in the Manly game, Sharks nearly got us doing the same and again it happened on the weekend. We struggle when teams throw the rule book out the window and start to play ad-lib. The 5-8 metres they made in initial contact turns into 20-30 metres every time this happens. Its a game killer....
That's a really good point, time and time again we get absolutely DESTROYED by offloads, and I think a lot of it is laziness, thinking the tackle is completed and clocking off.
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Re: Fading fast

Post by Rickmando » July 3, 2019, 1:19 pm

Matt wrote:
July 3, 2019, 12:08 pm
I think our boys get to a lead and try to defend it by playing safe footy.
The issue is, its 'safe footy', not playing the percentages.
Which is a mentality switch, not a tactical switch.
If you play the percentages, your still playing to a game plan and executing it.
If you play 'safe footy', your trying not to make mistakes, which ironically often leads to them, because the focus of what you are doing has changed. Its that old adage, of trying not to lose, rather than trying to win.

Hopefully that makes sense.
100% this - it’s mainly a mentality problem with a smidge of poor bench rotations from Rick.

I think this is a side that still doesn’t believe deep down they can go with the competition heavyweights - hence they clam up and move away from what has worked for the first 20-30mins. We did it in the 2016 finals, and haven’t really stopped doing it since...

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Re: Fading fast

Post by Rickmando » July 3, 2019, 1:20 pm

The Rickman wrote:
July 3, 2019, 1:02 pm
SeeBee101 wrote:
July 3, 2019, 12:58 pm
simo wrote:
July 3, 2019, 11:40 am
Our defence goes to crap once the offloads start flowing. Second phase play seems to absolutely destroy us while we continue to try for high completions. We make just as many errors when we try and play safe with the ball as we do when we move it around.
I've said it in previous posts but every time we get a lead we stop controlling the ruck and the offloads flow. I swear we are the worst team when it comes to wrapping the ball up....

It happened in the Manly game, Sharks nearly got us doing the same and again it happened on the weekend. We struggle when teams throw the rule book out the window and start to play ad-lib. The 5-8 metres they made in initial contact turns into 20-30 metres every time this happens. Its a game killer....
That's a really good point, time and time again we get absolutely DESTROYED by offloads, and I think a lot of it is laziness, thinking the tackle is completed and clocking off.
Definitely offloads, and you can throw linespeed in there too.

Both are attitudinal rather than technical or skill competencies...

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Re: Fading fast

Post by Raiders_Pat » July 3, 2019, 2:40 pm

Ronny P wrote:
July 3, 2019, 10:00 am
Here my thoughts. All NRL sides generally get into the grind of field position for the first 15-20 of any game. Then the errors set in. This is where a good half starts upping his touches and controlling the game either through simple ruck control or good kicking game. Watch any origin, semi final or grand final with the likes of Thurston, Cronk etc who’s ball touches lift dramatically in these stages. I think the Raiders problem is we think we need to score of each set, even when we are in front with 10 to go. Then the errors kick in and the stupid passes or whatever it is. If the opposition is on a roll stop the momentum with field position and time wasting through scrums etc after a decent kick in to touch or a repeat set. My thoughts only and I believe traditional halfbacks win and ice games.


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This is also my view and I'm surprised that you're the only one to mention it in this thread so far. I've said it before in other threads but I don't think we will be a genuine threat to take out this competition until we have somebody providing that direction and calming influence when we're at the dire stages of the game.

You need a half with a cool head demanding for the ball and taking the right options as far as directing the play and kicking the ball. Doesn't have to be anybody fancy as Hodgson provides a lot of that direction and we've got plenty of strike power with Wighton and Nicoll-Klokstad in 6 and 1 - we just need a solid, confident 7 to balance out those two, which we currently don't have...

Errors tend to come through people like Wighton trying to take on too much when we need it in the dying minutes. You get guys like him trying to come up with these big plays to save us and a lot of the time it's either the completely wrong option or the resulting error puts us in a worse position than before. We need somebody calming things down at these moments. Our strike players in the spine like Wighton's and Nicoll-Klokstad need that calming influence to be confident in these moments - this will lower our chances of players forcing errors.

Us looking gassed usually follows us having to defend multiple sets and a long period of the run of play going against us. There are always going to be errors in a game but it only starts to hurt your team when they stack up one after the other and all your hard work battling for field position goes out the window. It's not a fitness thing as it was in past seasons in my eyes, nor is it about our defensive structures or anything like that... it's ball control, confidence, etc. and less anxiety in the team would likely alleviate this. Confidence and calm nerves leads to working better defensively, better ball handling, etc. then it all starts to come together and luck starts going your way.

We're quite capable of beating any team in this competition in regular season games with our current set up, but in the games that count at the end of the year we won't get the job done imo. More than happy to be proven wrong but this to me is the main reason why we've got our infamous Faders style of play.
Last edited by Raiders_Pat on July 3, 2019, 3:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Fading fast

Post by Northern Raider » July 3, 2019, 2:59 pm

These latest fade outs have been the exception rather than the norm this season. However they are eerily similar to previous years where it's happened way too often. While it's concerning I'm not going to believe we've fallen back into those bad habits just yet. I'll wait a few more weeks before drawing too much conclusion there.

Let's not forget that we fell in a hole against the Sharks but still managed to get the win. I'd confidently say that last year we'd have lost that game.
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Re: Fading fast

Post by The Rickman » July 3, 2019, 3:00 pm

Northern Raider wrote:
July 3, 2019, 2:59 pm
These latest fade outs have been the exception rather than the norm this season. However they are eerily similar to previous years where it's happened way too often. While it's concerning I'm not going to believe we've fallen back into those bad habits just yet. I'll wait a few more weeks before drawing too much conclusion there.

Let's not forget that we fell in a hole against the Sharks but still managed to get the win. I'd confidently say that last year we'd have lost that game.
That's pretty much what I said in my first post.
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Re: Fading fast

Post by Northern Raider » July 3, 2019, 3:14 pm

The Rickman wrote:
July 3, 2019, 3:00 pm
Northern Raider wrote:
July 3, 2019, 2:59 pm
These latest fade outs have been the exception rather than the norm this season. However they are eerily similar to previous years where it's happened way too often. While it's concerning I'm not going to believe we've fallen back into those bad habits just yet. I'll wait a few more weeks before drawing too much conclusion there.

Let's not forget that we fell in a hole against the Sharks but still managed to get the win. I'd confidently say that last year we'd have lost that game.
That's pretty much what I said in my first post.
Yeah but I rarely read your posts
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Re: Fading fast

Post by The Rickman » July 3, 2019, 3:22 pm

Northern Raider wrote:
July 3, 2019, 3:14 pm
The Rickman wrote:
July 3, 2019, 3:00 pm
Northern Raider wrote:
July 3, 2019, 2:59 pm
These latest fade outs have been the exception rather than the norm this season. However they are eerily similar to previous years where it's happened way too often. While it's concerning I'm not going to believe we've fallen back into those bad habits just yet. I'll wait a few more weeks before drawing too much conclusion there.

Let's not forget that we fell in a hole against the Sharks but still managed to get the win. I'd confidently say that last year we'd have lost that game.
That's pretty much what I said in my first post.
Yeah but I rarely read your posts
Look, that's a very good point too.
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Re: Fading fast

Post by PigRickman » July 3, 2019, 3:55 pm

I think it's just solved by getting a fair run with officials

But more seriously, i think honestly Stuart's bench usage is still pretty bad. It's not talked about much because we're winning more than we're losing but there are still times every game where it feels like we're not managing our minutes or staggering our line ups optimally imo.
We dont really have a guy on our bench right now capable of coming on and really turning the tide either. Not that i am advocating have either of these guys back, but in previous years when we've had Paulo and Boyd staggered, there was always a big huge lump who could come on late in the game, relatively fresh and really put a dent in the opposition with the ball in hand and wrestle back control in the rucks

Feels like in these loses we are just constantly on the back foot, digging our way off our line, getting slow PTB's, and being very passive in defence. We bust our **** to get 40 yards of territory and hand it back in 3 tackles. It creates pressure, which creates errors or bad decision making when players are trying to "do something" to get us out.

As others have said, we're not a good team to be leading by 16+ either because as soon as you're out by 3 tries, teams start playing pretty loose and we are still a dreadful team defending offloads. This is a team built for an arm wrestle, and we arent a very creative team, so there is no real level for us to go up when blood is in the water. So we just do as we do, and sometimes a team rolls over and we go on with it. The teams that dont, generally hang tough, take a few more chances, particularly with second phase and if those passes stick they can pretty easily work their way back into the games and wrestle back momentum, and as said, we dont have someone (though Tapine should be it) who can reliably come on, wreck shop for 10-15 minutes and give us back some momentum.
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Re: Fading fast

Post by afgtnk » July 3, 2019, 4:06 pm

A good controlling, organising halfback who knows how to make the right plays in critical moments of the game. Anything else is secondary.

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Re: Fading fast

Post by -PJ- » July 3, 2019, 4:06 pm

Falling asleep during games is definately an issue.

When you get 14,16 20 points up you start to think how easy is this.

The boys need to trust the game plan and work for each other..be there to make that tackle, keep driving them back, more dominate tackles etc. It's gives the defensive line a few more seconds to reform, give the bloke next to you a nod and move up together to smash the next squeezer.

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Re: Fading fast

Post by simo » July 3, 2019, 4:36 pm

PigRickman wrote:
July 3, 2019, 3:55 pm
I think it's just solved by getting a fair run with officials

But more seriously, i think honestly Stuart's bench usage is still pretty bad. It's not talked about much because we're winning more than we're losing but there are still times every game where it feels like we're not managing our minutes or staggering our line ups optimally imo.
We dont really have a guy on our bench right now capable of coming on and really turning the tide either. Not that i am advocating have either of these guys back, but in previous years when we've had Paulo and Boyd staggered, there was always a big huge lump who could come on late in the game, relatively fresh and really put a dent in the opposition with the ball in hand and wrestle back control in the rucks

Feels like in these loses we are just constantly on the back foot, digging our way off our line, getting slow PTB's, and being very passive in defence. We bust our **** to get 40 yards of territory and hand it back in 3 tackles. It creates pressure, which creates errors or bad decision making when players are trying to "do something" to get us out.

As others have said, we're not a good team to be leading by 16+ either because as soon as you're out by 3 tries, teams start playing pretty loose and we are still a dreadful team defending offloads. This is a team built for an arm wrestle, and we arent a very creative team, so there is no real level for us to go up when blood is in the water. So we just do as we do, and sometimes a team rolls over and we go on with it. The teams that dont, generally hang tough, take a few more chances, particularly with second phase and if those passes stick they can pretty easily work their way back into the games and wrestle back momentum, and as said, we dont have someone (though Tapine should be it) who can reliably come on, wreck shop for 10-15 minutes and give us back some momentum.
I think hudson youngs our best player for this. Has the ability to come on and play at 100 miles an hour, get involved in everything then sub off.
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Re: Fading fast

Post by Northern Raider » July 3, 2019, 4:51 pm

I think Sticky's use on the bench in the past has been pretty terrible. I didn't really see it as an issue recently though. Last game I thought he needed Tapine back on a bit sooner but that was about it. We lost momentum due to handling errors, penalties and the odd dodgy call that had us contunuously on the back foot. That level of discipline carried through the remainder of the game.
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Re: Fading fast

Post by PigRickman » July 3, 2019, 5:26 pm

simo wrote:
July 3, 2019, 4:36 pm
PigRickman wrote:
July 3, 2019, 3:55 pm
I think it's just solved by getting a fair run with officials

But more seriously, i think honestly Stuart's bench usage is still pretty bad. It's not talked about much because we're winning more than we're losing but there are still times every game where it feels like we're not managing our minutes or staggering our line ups optimally imo.
We dont really have a guy on our bench right now capable of coming on and really turning the tide either. Not that i am advocating have either of these guys back, but in previous years when we've had Paulo and Boyd staggered, there was always a big huge lump who could come on late in the game, relatively fresh and really put a dent in the opposition with the ball in hand and wrestle back control in the rucks

Feels like in these loses we are just constantly on the back foot, digging our way off our line, getting slow PTB's, and being very passive in defence. We bust our **** to get 40 yards of territory and hand it back in 3 tackles. It creates pressure, which creates errors or bad decision making when players are trying to "do something" to get us out.

As others have said, we're not a good team to be leading by 16+ either because as soon as you're out by 3 tries, teams start playing pretty loose and we are still a dreadful team defending offloads. This is a team built for an arm wrestle, and we arent a very creative team, so there is no real level for us to go up when blood is in the water. So we just do as we do, and sometimes a team rolls over and we go on with it. The teams that dont, generally hang tough, take a few more chances, particularly with second phase and if those passes stick they can pretty easily work their way back into the games and wrestle back momentum, and as said, we dont have someone (though Tapine should be it) who can reliably come on, wreck shop for 10-15 minutes and give us back some momentum.
I think hudson youngs our best player for this. Has the ability to come on and play at 100 miles an hour, get involved in everything then sub off.
Yeah We’ve certainly missed his punch off the bench
As I said, realistically Tapine should be able to deliver for us on this front but just hasn’t really happened for him this year
The List - K.Love, Keno, Zippy's tennis angels, LA Lakers, Noah, Boozer, Lucy's horse tips, Colts, Lucy, Kevin Proctor, Dr Zaius, TR, Tinfoil hatted Gangers and Woody, anyone in Raiders HQ who can point to QBN on a map....

Matt wrote:
July 18, 2018, 3:49 pm
Edrick Lee 5. Jordan Rapana
Matt wrote:
June 25, 2019, 9:29 pm
Reed Mahoney 9. Josh Hodgson ©
Coaching Power Rankings: Ricky Stuart - Top 2, and he ain't 2.

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zim
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Re: Fading fast

Post by zim » July 3, 2019, 5:36 pm

There was a period during the game where we weren't completing a set. With errors, tries and penalties we just gave them too large a chunk of time with the ball. In previous years this was the "forever dropouts" portion of the game that we saw so often.
Our completion rate for the match looks okish but if you break it down into periods we had one terrible section where they gained the upper hand.

Instead of simplifying our game while we are under pressure, going up the guts and getting it into touch or deep in their half we push silly passes and lead ourselves into more panic. Give it to Wighton on the 4th (preferably from a quick play the ball) to hoof it down field.
There needs to be more recognition from the group when we enter these periods. More maturity. Giving the hooker 2 targets when hitting the ball up would also help. We run too many 1 out plays when the other team steps up their defense.

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BadnMean
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Re: Fading fast

Post by BadnMean » July 3, 2019, 6:12 pm

It hasn't happened because he's been a starter most of his games hasn't he? He's improved his play in the middle- more oomph more often in defence and working hard not to get lazy on the inside. Makes yards mixing hard runs with his stop n prop n palm n go thing mixed in.

But he can hardly be the bench impact guy if he starts all the time.

It's a tough decision. Ricky has moved Sutton from the starting lineup to a bench role which clearly suits him even less. The instinct is to reward Tapine's solid play with starting position. When if we look at our 17 and had to identify a forward best suited to bring impact and be a nightmare for tiring sides (be they forwards or halfbacks/hookers having to make another tackle on a big bloke- now with added footwork) it would be Tapine. Sia just isn't doing it and is a much more straight up and down prospect these days, Hors did show some signs of it but hasn't worked out his problem areas yet, Sutton isn't suited and Lui just isn't the treat Tapine is in any department (Lui is solid this year, not a criticism, he's just not dynamic).

Royce Hunt might be the other who springs to mind in our squads who could suit the "come on and wreck stuff" role for shorter stints but he's nowhere near the quality of Tapine.

If it really is a 17 man game, then starting is just about role, not prestige and perhaps Tapine is best suited in our squad as the bench impact- if he's not playing an edge?

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BadnMean
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Re: Fading fast

Post by BadnMean » July 3, 2019, 6:18 pm

zim wrote:
July 3, 2019, 5:36 pm
There was a period during the game where we weren't completing a set. With errors, tries and penalties we just gave them too large a chunk of time with the ball. In previous years this was the "forever dropouts" portion of the game that we saw so often.
Our completion rate for the match looks okish but if you break it down into periods we had one terrible section where they gained the upper hand.

Instead of simplifying our game while we are under pressure, going up the guts and getting it into touch or deep in their half we push silly passes and lead ourselves into more panic. Give it to Wighton on the 4th (preferably from a quick play the ball) to hoof it down field.
There needs to be more recognition from the group when we enter these periods. More maturity. Giving the hooker 2 targets when hitting the ball up would also help. We run too many 1 out plays when the other team steps up their defense.
I actually think we get a bit too predictable in these periods. Our forwards go missing until the 4th hit up and it is predictable as anything (hence getting smashed for no yards) dummy half or one out stuff from our back 3. You can practically call them in order depending on who returned the kick. I think a tough carry from a forward while one side sets a line for a spread might do better for us occasionally. Jack or the same back 3 (or centre) would end up doing the carry as usual but it might buy us space and spread the opposition.

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zim
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Re: Fading fast

Post by zim » July 3, 2019, 6:41 pm

That's what I was getting at with 2 targets for the hooker to aim at. Simplifying is probably the wrong word. Playing the percentages is more what it's about. Not pushing passes when there's 2 guys on you or on the first tackle when we've had no ball. The quicker play the ball is better than turning it over.

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Rickmando
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Re: Fading fast

Post by Rickmando » July 3, 2019, 7:16 pm

BadnMean wrote:
July 3, 2019, 6:18 pm
zim wrote:
July 3, 2019, 5:36 pm
There was a period during the game where we weren't completing a set. With errors, tries and penalties we just gave them too large a chunk of time with the ball. In previous years this was the "forever dropouts" portion of the game that we saw so often.
Our completion rate for the match looks okish but if you break it down into periods we had one terrible section where they gained the upper hand.

Instead of simplifying our game while we are under pressure, going up the guts and getting it into touch or deep in their half we push silly passes and lead ourselves into more panic. Give it to Wighton on the 4th (preferably from a quick play the ball) to hoof it down field.
There needs to be more recognition from the group when we enter these periods. More maturity. Giving the hooker 2 targets when hitting the ball up would also help. We run too many 1 out plays when the other team steps up their defense.
I actually think we get a bit too predictable in these periods. Our forwards go missing until the 4th hit up and it is predictable as anything (hence getting smashed for no yards) dummy half or one out stuff from our back 3. You can practically call them in order depending on who returned the kick. I think a tough carry from a forward while one side sets a line for a spread might do better for us occasionally. Jack or the same back 3 (or centre) would end up doing the carry as usual but it might buy us space and spread the opposition.
This is spot on too. Our strength of the back 3 carrying the ball out of our own half can become our biggest weakness. The three of them do a great job, but sometimes it’s on autopilot. You can see Rapana barge into dummy half a mile away, and he NEVER passes it

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Roger Kenworthy
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Re: Fading fast

Post by Roger Kenworthy » July 3, 2019, 10:59 pm

afgtnk wrote:
July 3, 2019, 4:06 pm
A good controlling, organising halfback who knows how to make the right plays in critical moments of the game. Anything else is secondary.
Clamour for Sezer's return and then start threads complaining that we're not closing out matches while under pressure.

What a world we live in.

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Coastalraider
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Re: Fading fast

Post by Coastalraider » July 4, 2019, 5:41 am

Rickmando wrote:
July 3, 2019, 1:19 pm
Matt wrote:
July 3, 2019, 12:08 pm
I think our boys get to a lead and try to defend it by playing safe footy.
The issue is, its 'safe footy', not playing the percentages.
Which is a mentality switch, not a tactical switch.
If you play the percentages, your still playing to a game plan and executing it.
If you play 'safe footy', your trying not to make mistakes, which ironically often leads to them, because the focus of what you are doing has changed. Its that old adage, of trying not to lose, rather than trying to win.

Hopefully that makes sense.
100% this - it’s mainly a mentality problem with a smidge of poor bench rotations from Rick.

I think this is a side that still doesn’t believe deep down they can go with the competition heavyweights - hence they clam up and move away from what has worked for the first 20-30mins. We did it in the 2016 finals, and haven’t really stopped doing it since...
Agree, but i think there is also a touch of overconfidence ripe within us once they shift as well. In previous years we have started leaking points while in the lead, and we looked panicked, letting in more points to inevitably lose. This year, it’s like we are so confident in still taking the win due to doing so earlier this year, that we can leak 3-4 tries and give up a big lead before we get shocked back into action - ala the sharks. It’s like they say ’its ok, it’s only 1 try, we are still in control. It’s ok, it’s only 2 tries......’ until ‘oh oh, they are leading now’...

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