Current dummy half

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julian87
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Re: Current dummy half

Post by julian87 » June 14, 2019, 10:36 am

I still reckon there’s a case for Havili playing the first 20 and Hodgson playing 60. But it’s sacrilege to have guns on the bench apparently.
well, I guess you could say that I'm buy curious.

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Re: Current dummy half

Post by The Rickman » June 14, 2019, 10:40 am

julian87 wrote:
June 14, 2019, 10:36 am
I still reckon there’s a case for Havili playing the first 20 and Hodgson playing 60. But it’s sacrilege to have guns on the bench apparently.
That's really not that stupid... I think every single game we've started with Havili (barring the Tigers game last week), we've raced out to a commanding lead and then been run down.

Bringing Hodgson on at the 20th minute mark when we're up 12 or 18-nil would just crush the opposition.
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Re: Current dummy half

Post by zim » June 14, 2019, 10:59 am

It would work in some cases but it's never going to get a yes from me. Pick your strongest side against the oppositions strongest and let the lower tier guys sort themselves out against the other second stringers.

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Re: Current dummy half

Post by The Rickman » June 14, 2019, 11:00 am

Also, there's almost no way Hodgson would go for it, so it's not a realistic scenario.
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Re: Current dummy half

Post by julian87 » June 14, 2019, 11:01 am

zim wrote:
June 14, 2019, 10:59 am
It would work in some cases but it's never going to get a yes from me. Pick your strongest side against the oppositions strongest and let the lower tier guys sort themselves out against the other second stringers.
It’s a 17 man game. Your bench shouldn’t be the next 4 best players imo.
well, I guess you could say that I'm buy curious.

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Re: Current dummy half

Post by zim » June 14, 2019, 11:03 am

The game also goes for a finite amount of time. Giving the opposition the chance to put a lead on you so you can worry about playing catch up later in the match is not how I pick sides.
But I know I'm not in the majority with that opinion.

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Re: Current dummy half

Post by The Rickman » June 14, 2019, 11:14 am

zim wrote:
June 14, 2019, 11:03 am
The game also goes for a finite amount of time. Giving the opposition the chance to put a lead on you so you can worry about playing catch up later in the match is not how I pick sides.
But I know I'm not in the majority with that opinion.
I think you're completely missing what we're saying. We generally race out to a lead when Havili starts at hooker, and then we die in the ****.

It's not the other way around.
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Re: Current dummy half

Post by zim » June 14, 2019, 1:19 pm

The Rickman wrote:
June 14, 2019, 11:14 am
zim wrote:
June 14, 2019, 11:03 am
The game also goes for a finite amount of time. Giving the opposition the chance to put a lead on you so you can worry about playing catch up later in the match is not how I pick sides.
But I know I'm not in the majority with that opinion.
I think you're completely missing what we're saying. We generally race out to a lead when Havili starts at hooker, and then we die in the ****.

It's not the other way around.
If that's the point that was being made I did miss it.
"Generally" I don't think we do. We had quick starts for the first 3 games of 2018 and obviously the sharks game but what those games also have in common is high error rates and low completions from the opposition in the first 20. Havili was great at helping take advantage of that. Hodgo would be as well.
All things being even before the game starts I'm still picking Hodgo.

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Re: Current dummy half

Post by The Rickman » June 14, 2019, 3:21 pm

zim wrote:
June 14, 2019, 1:19 pm
The Rickman wrote:
June 14, 2019, 11:14 am
zim wrote:
June 14, 2019, 11:03 am
The game also goes for a finite amount of time. Giving the opposition the chance to put a lead on you so you can worry about playing catch up later in the match is not how I pick sides.
But I know I'm not in the majority with that opinion.
I think you're completely missing what we're saying. We generally race out to a lead when Havili starts at hooker, and then we die in the ****.

It's not the other way around.
If that's the point that was being made I did miss it.
"Generally" I don't think we do. We had quick starts for the first 3 games of 2018 and obviously the sharks game but what those games also have in common is high error rates and low completions from the opposition in the first 20. Havili was great at helping take advantage of that. Hodgo would be as well.
All things being even before the game starts I'm still picking Hodgo.
We absolutely do. Go back to every game this year and last year that we've started with Havili at hooker and we've almost always got out to a 12-0, 18-0, 20-0 lead within the first 20 minutes.

THAT was the whole purpose of our idea, the very fact you tried to argue against it for the opposite reasons is mind-boggling to me.
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Re: Current dummy half

Post by zim » June 14, 2019, 4:23 pm

I did go back to all the games Havili started in. You're wrong. But that's ok I knew this was generally coming from a bit of hyperbole.

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Re: Current dummy half

Post by The Rickman » June 15, 2019, 8:14 am

zim wrote:I did go back to all the games Havili started in. You're wrong. But that's ok I knew this was generally coming from a bit of hyperbole.
Ok, so this year he’s started in the last three games, we’ve got out to strong leads in all three.

Last year he started the first four games and all four we got out to “unloseable” leads and we lost all four.

I’m not even sure why you’re just arguing for the point of it. Just admit that you missed what the conversation was about and move on from it
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Re: Current dummy half

Post by BadnMean » June 15, 2019, 11:13 am

That's a very interesting stat. I wonder if Ricky is fed those kind of things.

He may ignore it to keep Hodgo happy, who doesn't see himself as a bench hooker and just won't wear it.

Or Ricky himself may just shrug and ignore it as too weird for him.

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Re: Current dummy half

Post by edwahu » June 15, 2019, 12:21 pm

He started 14 games last year though.

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Re: Current dummy half

Post by Seiffert82 » June 15, 2019, 4:04 pm

Many of which we started OK and then got run down in the second half.

Not sure I'd start arguably our most important player on the bench, but statistically the idea has merit. He could destroy many teams coming on fresh after 20.

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Re: Current dummy half

Post by papabear » June 30, 2019, 9:21 pm

Good to see Hodgson looking pretty healthy.

The thing with Hodgson is he is a barometer of our team, the way he goes our team goes. He plays well for 30 minutes we look good.

He does his stupid **** on the 5th in the attacking zone going for a crab instead of owning the play and putting a kick to himself the only real option left, he throws a hospital ball to wighton the most heavily marked player on the field. Games turns and we never looked like winning it after that point.

For me he looked tired and missed a simple tackle that started a line break that they might have got there first try from. After such a long lay off and in general, I would prefer to see Hodgson have a rest after 30 mins to let havili let sezer be in the game. Get rest so he isn’t making his auto pilot **** decisions under fatigue.

Then come on with 25 to go get momentum back and finish hard.

We can’t simply have both wighton and Hodgson making all our decisions if hodgson is under fatigue that are the two most talented dummies I have seen in a while.

Mason Lino he looks really good on another note ...

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Re: Current dummy half

Post by Billy Walker » June 30, 2019, 10:06 pm

My take on the 9 is:

Hodgo is clearly our best 9 by a long way. If he’s fit he starts.

If Hodgo is injured Havilli is the man. A very good back up - Starling to the bench.

If we expect to run Hodgo at dummy half for 80 minutes then Sezer is the injury cover for him with Whitehead or Bateman to shuffle into the halves. Havilli makes way on the bench for Young or Guler.

If we want to run someone else for 10-15 mins at dummy half at the backend of each half to lift the tempo then Starling fills that role.

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Re: Current dummy half

Post by The Rickman » July 1, 2019, 6:54 am

Havili is absolutely perfect for the role that he plays. He’s a good, solid, hard-running middle forward and he covers dummy half just in case more than adequately
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Re: Current dummy half

Post by Brew » July 1, 2019, 8:04 am

You know I take myself back to 2016. We were struggling a bit and Hodgson got dropped to the bench vs The Warriors and we went on this amazing run to finish 2nd.
I’m not saying to drop him to the bench now but not play the full 80 at hooker. He did well playing that roving role in 2016 when Baptise came on.
Would like see Havilli have a stink at Hooker during the game.


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Re: Current dummy half

Post by Brew » July 1, 2019, 8:04 am

On another note has Sezer and Hodgson ever clicked?

Seems like Hodgson plays better with Williams at Half.


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Re: Current dummy half

Post by Sid » July 1, 2019, 8:42 am

Brew wrote:
July 1, 2019, 8:04 am
On another note has Sezer and Hodgson ever clicked?

Seems like Hodgson plays better with Williams at Half.


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I think Sezer came in for Williams around the time Hodgson was injured? Was half expecting Williams to come back once Hodgson came back, but hard to dump a half after 3 wins
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Re: Current dummy half

Post by papabear » July 1, 2019, 2:02 pm

Brew wrote:
July 1, 2019, 8:04 am
On another note has Sezer and Hodgson ever clicked?

Seems like Hodgson plays better with Williams at Half.


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I cant really remember it.

The big thing for me though is how he works with wighton. Wighton is turning into our best player by a long way, and we need players that put wighton in a more comfortable physical position and headspace. I think that will be defining to the success of our team and both players..

With sezer hodgo never passes him the ball so arguably sezer doesnt do anything wrong, but he also doesnt get much chance.

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Re: Current dummy half

Post by papabear » July 1, 2019, 2:04 pm

Billy Walker wrote:
June 30, 2019, 10:06 pm
My take on the 9 is:

Hodgo is clearly our best 9 by a long way. If he’s fit he starts.

If Hodgo is injured Havilli is the man. A very good back up - Starling to the bench.

If we expect to run Hodgo at dummy half for 80 minutes then Sezer is the injury cover for him with Whitehead or Bateman to shuffle into the halves. Havilli makes way on the bench for Young or Guler.

If we want to run someone else for 10-15 mins at dummy half at the backend of each half to lift the tempo then Starling fills that role.
Whether its starling or havili im a bit ambivalent on.

I just want a player whose usage rate is through the roof when he is on, to be effective when he is on, because when he is tired he becomes a negative.

I like starling as a hooker from what i saw, but havili gives you more options in that he can play minutes as a middle third, so either way I am not going to be to critical of.

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Re: Current dummy half

Post by The Rickman » July 1, 2019, 2:07 pm

papabear wrote:
July 1, 2019, 2:04 pm
Billy Walker wrote:
June 30, 2019, 10:06 pm
My take on the 9 is:

Hodgo is clearly our best 9 by a long way. If he’s fit he starts.

If Hodgo is injured Havilli is the man. A very good back up - Starling to the bench.

If we expect to run Hodgo at dummy half for 80 minutes then Sezer is the injury cover for him with Whitehead or Bateman to shuffle into the halves. Havilli makes way on the bench for Young or Guler.

If we want to run someone else for 10-15 mins at dummy half at the backend of each half to lift the tempo then Starling fills that role.
Whether its starling or havili im a bit ambivalent on.

I just want a player whose usage rate is through the roof when he is on, to be effective when he is on, because when he is tired he becomes a negative.

I like starling as a hooker from what i saw, but havili gives you more options in that he can play minutes as a middle third, so either way I am not going to be to critical of.
Your last sentence there is why I'd choose Havili over Starling every day of the year.
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Re: Current dummy half

Post by Billy Walker » July 1, 2019, 4:14 pm

No doubt Havilli has more strings to his bow, but if the specific need is 10 minutes speed out of dummy half I think Starling is the better option.

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Re: Current dummy half

Post by Northern Raider » July 1, 2019, 5:12 pm

Brew wrote:
July 1, 2019, 8:04 am
You know I take myself back to 2016. We were struggling a bit and Hodgson got dropped to the bench vs The Warriors and we went on this amazing run to finish 2nd.
I’m not saying to drop him to the bench now but not play the full 80 at hooker. He did well playing that roving role in 2016 when Baptise came on.
Would like see Havilli have a stink at Hooker during the game.


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Re: Current dummy half

Post by Northern Raider » July 1, 2019, 5:18 pm

papabear wrote:
July 1, 2019, 2:04 pm
Billy Walker wrote:
June 30, 2019, 10:06 pm
My take on the 9 is:

Hodgo is clearly our best 9 by a long way. If he’s fit he starts.

If Hodgo is injured Havilli is the man. A very good back up - Starling to the bench.

If we expect to run Hodgo at dummy half for 80 minutes then Sezer is the injury cover for him with Whitehead or Bateman to shuffle into the halves. Havilli makes way on the bench for Young or Guler.

If we want to run someone else for 10-15 mins at dummy half at the backend of each half to lift the tempo then Starling fills that role.
Whether its starling or havili im a bit ambivalent on.

I just want a player whose usage rate is through the roof when he is on, to be effective when he is on, because when he is tired he becomes a negative.

I like starling as a hooker from what i saw, but havili gives you more options in that he can play minutes as a middle third, so either way I am not going to be to critical of.
Most coaches now are holding back a forward till well into the 2nd half. I'm happy to see Havili used in that role as he can provide a late burst in the middle. Added bonus is he can spell Hodgo if he's showing fatigue (mental or physical).

If you have Starling on the bench then there's only one way you can use him. That means if Hodgo is travelling fine then you've effectivley wasted a bench spot.
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Re: Current dummy half

Post by Billy Walker » July 1, 2019, 6:07 pm

Northern Raider wrote:
July 1, 2019, 5:18 pm
papabear wrote:
July 1, 2019, 2:04 pm
Billy Walker wrote:
June 30, 2019, 10:06 pm
My take on the 9 is:

Hodgo is clearly our best 9 by a long way. If he’s fit he starts.

If Hodgo is injured Havilli is the man. A very good back up - Starling to the bench.

If we expect to run Hodgo at dummy half for 80 minutes then Sezer is the injury cover for him with Whitehead or Bateman to shuffle into the halves. Havilli makes way on the bench for Young or Guler.

If we want to run someone else for 10-15 mins at dummy half at the backend of each half to lift the tempo then Starling fills that role.
Whether its starling or havili im a bit ambivalent on.

I just want a player whose usage rate is through the roof when he is on, to be effective when he is on, because when he is tired he becomes a negative.

I like starling as a hooker from what i saw, but havili gives you more options in that he can play minutes as a middle third, so either way I am not going to be to critical of.
Most coaches now are holding back a forward till well into the 2nd half. I'm happy to see Havili used in that role as he can provide a late burst in the middle. Added bonus is he can spell Hodgo if he's showing fatigue (mental or physical).

If you have Starling on the bench then there's only one way you can use him. That means if Hodgo is travelling fine then you've effectivley wasted a bench spot.
NR - given Hodgo is an 80 minute player, is there any argument not to run a back up 9 on the bench at all or is that too big a risk?

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Re: Current dummy half

Post by Northern Raider » July 1, 2019, 7:08 pm

Billy Walker wrote:
July 1, 2019, 6:07 pm
Northern Raider wrote:
July 1, 2019, 5:18 pm
papabear wrote:
July 1, 2019, 2:04 pm
Billy Walker wrote:
June 30, 2019, 10:06 pm
My take on the 9 is:

Hodgo is clearly our best 9 by a long way. If he’s fit he starts.

If Hodgo is injured Havilli is the man. A very good back up - Starling to the bench.

If we expect to run Hodgo at dummy half for 80 minutes then Sezer is the injury cover for him with Whitehead or Bateman to shuffle into the halves. Havilli makes way on the bench for Young or Guler.

If we want to run someone else for 10-15 mins at dummy half at the backend of each half to lift the tempo then Starling fills that role.
Whether its starling or havili im a bit ambivalent on.

I just want a player whose usage rate is through the roof when he is on, to be effective when he is on, because when he is tired he becomes a negative.

I like starling as a hooker from what i saw, but havili gives you more options in that he can play minutes as a middle third, so either way I am not going to be to critical of.
Most coaches now are holding back a forward till well into the 2nd half. I'm happy to see Havili used in that role as he can provide a late burst in the middle. Added bonus is he can spell Hodgo if he's showing fatigue (mental or physical).

If you have Starling on the bench then there's only one way you can use him. That means if Hodgo is travelling fine then you've effectivley wasted a bench spot.
NR - given Hodgo is an 80 minute player, is there any argument not to run a back up 9 on the bench at all or is that too big a risk?
That's why I like Havili on the bench. He's a very capable middle forward who gives backup for Hodgo if needed.
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Re: Current dummy half

Post by The Rickman » July 1, 2019, 7:13 pm

I don’t know why we keep going round and round on this discussion, it’s pretty black and white why you pick Havili over Starling ****
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Re: Current dummy half

Post by gergreg » July 1, 2019, 8:20 pm

The Rickman wrote:I don’t know why we keep going round and round on this discussion, it’s pretty black and white why you pick Havili over Starling ****
That's wascist

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Re: Current dummy half

Post by Billy Walker » July 1, 2019, 9:28 pm

The Rickman wrote:
July 1, 2019, 7:13 pm
I don’t know why we keep going round and round on this discussion, it’s pretty black and white why you pick Havili over Starling ****
You seem a pretty black and white sort of guy Rickman. You pick a position on a topic and won’t hear anything otherwise. It sort of kills the forum concept when you keep doing that. I was genuinely keen to hear NR’s view on the topic because I’ve liked his analysis on other threads. At the end of the day what you me or NR thinks is not likely to have any impact on selection decisions so I wouldn’t get too worried about people kicking around ideas you may not agree with.

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Re: Current dummy half

Post by The Rickman » July 1, 2019, 10:14 pm

Billy Walker wrote:
The Rickman wrote:
July 1, 2019, 7:13 pm
I don’t know why we keep going round and round on this discussion, it’s pretty black and white why you pick Havili over Starling ****
You seem a pretty black and white sort of guy Rickman. You pick a position on a topic and won’t hear anything otherwise. It sort of kills the forum concept when you keep doing that. I was genuinely keen to hear NR’s view on the topic because I’ve liked his analysis on other threads. At the end of the day what you me or NR thinks is not likely to have any impact on selection decisions so I wouldn’t get too worried about people kicking around ideas you may not agree with.
That’s absolute garbage, I change my mind all the time based on the evidence in front of me, unlike a lot of the posters on here who seem to feel like once they’ve formed an opinion, they’re wedded to it for life

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Re: Current dummy half

Post by Fuifui Bradbrad » July 2, 2019, 7:09 am

Northern Raider wrote:Most coaches now are holding back a forward till well into the 2nd half. I'm happy to see Havili used in that role as he can provide a late burst in the middle. Added bonus is he can spell Hodgo if he's showing fatigue (mental or physical).

If you have Starling on the bench then there's only one way you can use him. That means if Hodgo is travelling fine then you've effectivley wasted a bench spot.
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Re: Current dummy half

Post by papabear » July 2, 2019, 11:17 am

Billy Walker wrote:
July 1, 2019, 4:14 pm
No doubt Havilli has more strings to his bow, but if the specific need is 10 minutes speed out of dummy half I think Starling is the better option.
For me the specific need is not having Hodgson on the field tired for the last ten minutes making bad calls in both the first and in the second half having him well rested so he is still playing footy and making good decisions.

Whether it is more value to have a better hooker for that 25 min period or a hooker who can hold the fort and give some value in the middle to make our middle defence and attack slightly more effective in the additional minutes is on, is a hard question which I haven’t settled on an opinion.

I see the value of both yours and ricks.

Billy Walker
John Ferguson
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Joined: April 29, 2017, 7:22 pm
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Re: Current dummy half

Post by Billy Walker » July 2, 2019, 1:29 pm

papabear wrote:
July 2, 2019, 11:17 am
Billy Walker wrote:
July 1, 2019, 4:14 pm
No doubt Havilli has more strings to his bow, but if the specific need is 10 minutes speed out of dummy half I think Starling is the better option.
For me the specific need is not having Hodgson on the field tired for the last ten minutes making bad calls in both the first and in the second half having him well rested so he is still playing footy and making good decisions.

Whether it is more value to have a better hooker for that 25 min period or a hooker who can hold the fort and give some value in the middle to make our middle defence and attack slightly more effective in the additional minutes is on, is a hard question which I haven’t settled on an opinion.

I see the value of both yours and ricks.
Not a bad position to be in having the luxury of the option. Perhaps a horses for courses selection policy based on the opponent might work?

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