Williams or Sezer?

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Hazza
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Re: Williams or Sezer?

Post by Hazza » June 14, 2019, 8:58 am

afgtnk wrote:
June 14, 2019, 3:08 am
He's literally one of the worst halfbacks on the list, and that's taking into account a number of second stringers listed.

No question the standard of halves has dipped significantly over the decade, but that to me says even more about his level.

We need a better halfback in order to win a premiership, pure and simple - Hodgson isn't enough. They don't have to be a reincarnation of Ricky Stuart, a guy around the Chad Townsend or Blake Green level will do fine.
Blake Green? wow. He's a right footed version of Sezer

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Re: Williams or Sezer?

Post by yeh raiders » June 14, 2019, 9:02 am

Seiffert82 wrote:
June 14, 2019, 1:57 am
I find it interesting how Sezer is rated as below NRL standard. Looking at the current halves in action across the comp, I reckon over 1/3 of them would be regarded as below NRL standard. Not sure what that says about the NRL. .
The standards don’t need to be redefined. What it says is the game is severely lacking good halves, we have no right to try to expand the game to another team and Phil Gould is spot on in that we need a halfback academy.

Thankfully LemonMan isn’t running the club and we have rightly decided to go abroad to find another half to partner Wighton next year.

When guys like Ash Taylor, Luke Brooks and Mitch Moses can all get upwards of $750k for very little return - somethings seriously wrong with the quality of footballer in those positions.

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Re: Williams or Sezer?

Post by Hazza » June 14, 2019, 9:07 am

The thing about the Williams/Sezer thing is obviously clouds people's judgement and people stop being objective. Anyone that thinks Sezer played well last night is kidding themselves, he was atrocious in the 2nd half. Good try in the 1st half and at this point in time is a better option for this team than Sam Williams but he certainly didn't play well.

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Re: Williams or Sezer?

Post by papabear » June 14, 2019, 9:12 am

Sam has two advantages over sezer
1 - Field goal kicking
2 - He works with hodgson better.

Sezer wins on most other points.

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Re: Williams or Sezer?

Post by Hazza » June 14, 2019, 9:20 am

I can't get the cowboys loss out of my head as far as Williams is concerned. He had 1 of the worst games ever played by a NRL half. I think if Wighton wasn't selcted for NSW he would've been dropped after that game.

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Re: Williams or Sezer?

Post by The Rickman » June 14, 2019, 9:20 am

Northern Raider wrote:
June 14, 2019, 7:51 am
simo wrote:
June 14, 2019, 7:35 am
afgtnk wrote:
June 14, 2019, 3:08 am
He's literally one of the worst halfbacks on the list, and that's taking into account a number of second stringers listed.

No question the standard of halves has dipped significantly over the decade, but that to me says even more about his level.

We need a better halfback in order to win a premiership, pure and simple - Hodgson isn't enough. They don't have to be a reincarnation of Ricky Stuart, a guy around the Chad Townsend or Blake Green level will do fine.
Why are you moving the goalposts so much. The point isnt that sezer is a great halfback, its that hes miles agead of sam williams. They are two completely different points.
Imagine hating a player in your team so much you cant even enjoy when he does something good
Give him a break. He backed the wrong horse and is struggling to come to terms with it.
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Re: Williams or Sezer?

Post by Northern Raider » June 14, 2019, 9:33 am

papabear wrote:
June 14, 2019, 9:12 am
Sam has two advantages over sezer
1 - Field goal kicking
2 - He works with hodgson better.

Sezer wins on most other points.
Williams has more finesse on his short kicking game on the red zone. In this regard I actually think Williams is above average by broader NRL standards.

I'm not sure about your point 2. Seen nothing to indicate that Williams has any real on field affinity with Hodgo.
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Re: Williams or Sezer?

Post by Roger Kenworthy » June 14, 2019, 11:32 am

There are no right or wrong answers to this debate. Hence the 29 pages.

We haven't had teams roll over us for long periods with Williams in the team as they did last night and often in 17 and 18. So I do think he does a better job of controlling the tempo for us. Last night I would have seen his more precise kicking game drilling the ball into touch whenever we got into decent field position. Enough to justify his defence? Probably not.

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Re: Williams or Sezer?

Post by amiafish » June 14, 2019, 11:54 am

I beg to differ. There is a right answer, and it's based on the best fit to our brand of winning footy.

The way we're winning at the moment is based on defence. Pure and simple. We are sliding well, we are turning up on the inside, we are coming up and in when it merits (and sometimes when it doesn't...cough...Mr. Croker), and we are nailing our one on one tackles.

Who fits that bill better, Williams or Sezer?

The old adage "don't weaken a strength to strengthen a weakness" applies here. Whatever alleged benefit Williams might bring in organizing our attack, he is a dead-set catastrophe in defence. And we are winning on defence.

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Re: Williams or Sezer?

Post by Roger Kenworthy » June 14, 2019, 12:13 pm

amiafish wrote:
June 14, 2019, 11:54 am
I beg to differ. There is a right answer, and it's based on the best fit to our brand of winning footy.

The way we're winning at the moment is based on defence. Pure and simple. We are sliding well, we are turning up on the inside, we are coming up and in when it merits (and sometimes when it doesn't...cough...Mr. Croker), and we are nailing our one on one tackles.

Who fits that bill better, Williams or Sezer?

The old adage "don't weaken a strength to strengthen a weakness" applies here. Whatever alleged benefit Williams might bring in organizing our attack, he is a dead-set catastrophe in defence. And we are winning on defence.
I haven't worked out any numbers but to my mind our defense has been great against the bottom 8 and middle of the road against top 8. We held Titans and Tigers to 0 with Sezer, Eels to 0 with Williams. With a larger sample size of Sezer in the team it will be interesting to see if our defense improves as that'd be hard to do when we were already second best.

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Re: Williams or Sezer?

Post by The Rickman » June 14, 2019, 12:25 pm

I'm still eagerly awaiting afgfjgbktgmfklmhrhherth's response about whether he cheered Sezer's intercept or whether he sat there angrily with his arms folded muttering under his breath. Because I think we all know the answer.

And just for the record, I was jumping around cheering like a loon. As I was for Sammy Williams' try earlier in the season where he sliced through a gaping hole to score. It is possible to support them both, just as it's possible to acknowledge one is better than the other without irrational hatred for either player.
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Re: Williams or Sezer?

Post by Northern Raider » June 14, 2019, 12:25 pm

Statistical analysis of points conceced compared to ladder position of the opposition is totally useless if you want to determine which halfback is defensively better. The right way is to watch the friggin games and its plain as day. There can be several valid cases made for either player but don't for a second believe that Williams is even in the same postcode as Sezer when it comes to defense.
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Re: Williams or Sezer?

Post by The Rickman » June 14, 2019, 12:27 pm

Northern Raider wrote:
June 14, 2019, 12:25 pm
Statistical analysis of points conceced compared to ladder position of the opposition is totally useless if you want to determine which halfback is defensively better. The right way is to watch the friggin games and its plain as day. There can be several valid cases made for either player but don't for a second believe that Williams is even in the same postcode as Sezer when it comes to defense.
Agreed. Any stats that somehow prove that Williams is a better defender than Sezer are ludicrous IMO, because he just isn't.
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Re: Williams or Sezer?

Post by Roger Kenworthy » June 14, 2019, 12:43 pm

I don't think anyone is arguing their individual defense is close. The point is what influence their individual defensive gap has on team defence, and whether factors like not getting to our 5th tackle options regularly negate that improved individual defence.

In saying that Sezer has a superior running game to Williams. But the idea that this debate is as simple as defense is bizarre to me.

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Re: Williams or Sezer?

Post by Aero » June 14, 2019, 1:20 pm


amiafish wrote: The old adage "don't weaken a strength to strengthen a weakness" applies here. Whatever alleged benefit Williams might bring in organizing our attack, he is a dead-set catastrophe in defence. And we are winning on defence.
Isn't that adage applicable to keeping Sezer in for Williams? We did win 6 of our 9 wins with Williams in the team. So Sezer in for Williams is actually weakening a strength to strengthen a weakness

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Re: Williams or Sezer?

Post by amiafish » June 14, 2019, 1:21 pm

We are winning on defense. Sezer is a better defender hands down. Ergo, Sezer is a better fit for halfback. That's bizarre argument?

Incidentally, I think Jack's move into the defensive line at five-eighth has played a massive part in our defensive improvement this year.

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Re: Williams or Sezer?

Post by Aero » June 14, 2019, 1:25 pm

Our 3 straight losses were without Bateman playing. I'd argue that Bateman covering Sammy's defensive weakness is enough for Sammy's better game management to be more of a positive than Sezer's better defensive game.

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Re: Williams or Sezer?

Post by Roger Kenworthy » June 14, 2019, 1:27 pm

amiafish wrote:
June 14, 2019, 1:21 pm
We are winning on defense. Sezer is a better defender hands down. Ergo, Sezer is a better fit for halfback. That's bizarre argument?

Incidentally, I think Jack's move into the defensive line at five-eighth has played a massive part in our defensive improvement this year.
It is if you bury your head in the sand about Sezer being terrible under pressure these past couple of years. There is a cost to having him at 7 and that is plays like sending Soliola on a hit up on the 5th or losing 20 metres on the final tackle because he caught the ball without a plan.

I'd say Wighton's attack has been the biggest surprise of his move. His passing and kicking game has put us in a position where we may be able to carry the flaws in Sezer's game. I definitely didn't see his form coming.

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Re: Williams or Sezer?

Post by edwahu » June 14, 2019, 1:28 pm

Not sure it proves anything but fwiw:
Sezer is 4-1 with average against of 10pts a game.
Williams is 6-4 @ 16pts a game.

Sezer only has 2 games vs top 8 but we conceded 21 vs 18 for Williams (4 games).

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Re: Williams or Sezer?

Post by amiafish » June 14, 2019, 1:29 pm

You can argue hypothetical swings and round-abouts all day. Bottom line is we're doing better this year because of our defense, and Sezer is a better fit (if defense is a priority) than Williams.

Again, it makes no sense to weaken a strength to strengthen a weakness.

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Re: Williams or Sezer?

Post by Roger Kenworthy » June 14, 2019, 3:02 pm

If you don't want to balance the attributes a halfback needs then wouldn't Havili make the best halfback? Outstanding defender.

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Re: Williams or Sezer?

Post by rayden83 » June 14, 2019, 3:06 pm

Sezer has to be the main half from now on. Williams had his chance but blew it by generally invisible during games. Sezer is much the same but is a better defender and has a better attacking kicking game.

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Re: Williams or Sezer?

Post by The Rickman » June 14, 2019, 3:12 pm

The Rickman wrote:
June 14, 2019, 12:25 pm
I'm still eagerly awaiting afgfjgbktgmfklmhrhherth's response about whether he cheered Sezer's intercept or whether he sat there angrily with his arms folded muttering under his breath. Because I think we all know the answer.

And just for the record, I was jumping around cheering like a loon. As I was for Sammy Williams' try earlier in the season where he sliced through a gaping hole to score. It is possible to support them both, just as it's possible to acknowledge one is better than the other without irrational hatred for either player.
Still waiting, afmfdgjdfbjklvnwnlbn;wrbtnomkvf??
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Re: Williams or Sezer?

Post by BadnMean » June 14, 2019, 3:17 pm

Sezer has made some outstanding contributions in his games back.

The team looked ok when Sam played but not really noticeably more fluent and he made fewer notable contributions.

Sezer kicked slightly better last night. I don't see why he gets dropped after the break.

The only reason I could think is if Rick already has a plan in his head about who he thinks fits better with Hodgo and Jack in the spine when he has his full complement back vs who he likes more without Hodgo playing. Weird but it might explain some of his statements or planning.

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Re: Williams or Sezer?

Post by PigRickman » June 14, 2019, 6:57 pm

Roger Kenworthy wrote:
June 14, 2019, 3:02 pm
If you don't want to balance the attributes a halfback needs then wouldn't Havili make the best halfback? Outstanding defender.
Dude of his size cant hang on the edges. He's a pretty reliable middle forward defender but i he's not exactly a smooth lateral mover, i wouldnt want to see him consistently defending in space

also, as i've said 10000 times, you guys need to deconstruct the strawman. Defence IS Sezer's best attribute and the one aspect that puts him lightyears ahead of Williams in terms of this debate.
But even if you dont run your team through your halfback, you still need a capable kicker (and you can debate the merits of Williams or Sezer's kicking games, they're both below average but leave Havilii's for **** dead) and a passer... Havilii can not fill that role

THe best out of the box suggestion has been Hodgson to #7, with Starling and Havilii handling the 9 once Hodgo is back on deak.

This havilii/bateman/another strong defender strawman akjdjkadfskaa and you want to build is just utterly ridiculous.
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Re: Williams or Sezer?

Post by gergreg » June 14, 2019, 8:28 pm

There was a point in last night's match where Sezer made a 1 on 1 tackle almost on the Raiders tryline on Wade Graham. I instantly thought to myself, there is no way Sammy makes that stop.

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Re: Williams or Sezer?

Post by gergreg » June 14, 2019, 8:29 pm

The Rickman wrote:
Northern Raider wrote:
June 14, 2019, 7:51 am
simo wrote:
June 14, 2019, 7:35 am
afgtnk wrote:
June 14, 2019, 3:08 am
He's literally one of the worst halfbacks on the list, and that's taking into account a number of second stringers listed.

No question the standard of halves has dipped significantly over the decade, but that to me says even more about his level.

We need a better halfback in order to win a premiership, pure and simple - Hodgson isn't enough. They don't have to be a reincarnation of Ricky Stuart, a guy around the Chad Townsend or Blake Green level will do fine.
Why are you moving the goalposts so much. The point isnt that sezer is a great halfback, its that hes miles agead of sam williams. They are two completely different points.
Imagine hating a player in your team so much you cant even enjoy when he does something good
Give him a break. He backed the wrong horse and is struggling to come to terms with it.
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Re: Williams or Sezer?

Post by BadnMean » June 14, 2019, 8:38 pm

PigRickman wrote:
June 14, 2019, 6:57 pm
Roger Kenworthy wrote:
June 14, 2019, 3:02 pm
If you don't want to balance the attributes a halfback needs then wouldn't Havili make the best halfback? Outstanding defender.
Dude of his size cant hang on the edges. He's a pretty reliable middle forward defender but i he's not exactly a smooth lateral mover, i wouldnt want to see him consistently defending in space

also, as i've said 10000 times, you guys need to deconstruct the strawman. Defence IS Sezer's best attribute and the one aspect that puts him lightyears ahead of Williams in terms of this debate.
But even if you dont run your team through your halfback, you still need a capable kicker (and you can debate the merits of Williams or Sezer's kicking games, they're both below average but leave Havilii's for **** dead) and a passer... Havilii can not fill that role

THe best out of the box suggestion has been Hodgson to #7, with Starling and Havilii handling the 9 once Hodgo is back on deak.

This havilii/bateman/another strong defender strawman akjdjkadfskaa and you want to build is just utterly ridiculous.
Same reason Hodgo can't play halfback. Every time we've put Hodgo there in emergency they just get on his outside and score with ease. Havilii might move a bit better but he belongs in the middle.

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Re: Williams or Sezer?

Post by PigRickman » June 14, 2019, 8:45 pm

Yeah that's a really good point re Hodgson defending at halfback, i had completely forgotten the issues he had in defence out there.
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Re: Williams or Sezer?

Post by edwahu » June 14, 2019, 9:25 pm

gergreg wrote:
June 14, 2019, 8:29 pm
The Rickman wrote:
Northern Raider wrote:
June 14, 2019, 7:51 am
simo wrote:
June 14, 2019, 7:35 am
afgtnk wrote:
June 14, 2019, 3:08 am
He's literally one of the worst halfbacks on the list, and that's taking into account a number of second stringers listed.

No question the standard of halves has dipped significantly over the decade, but that to me says even more about his level.

We need a better halfback in order to win a premiership, pure and simple - Hodgson isn't enough. They don't have to be a reincarnation of Ricky Stuart, a guy around the Chad Townsend or Blake Green level will do fine.
Why are you moving the goalposts so much. The point isnt that sezer is a great halfback, its that hes miles agead of sam williams. They are two completely different points.
Imagine hating a player in your team so much you cant even enjoy when he does something good
Give him a break. He backed the wrong horse and is struggling to come to terms with it.
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Re: Williams or Sezer?

Post by Northern Raider » June 14, 2019, 9:33 pm

gergreg wrote:
June 14, 2019, 8:29 pm
The Rickman wrote:
Northern Raider wrote:
June 14, 2019, 7:51 am
simo wrote:
June 14, 2019, 7:35 am
afgtnk wrote:
June 14, 2019, 3:08 am
He's literally one of the worst halfbacks on the list, and that's taking into account a number of second stringers listed.

No question the standard of halves has dipped significantly over the decade, but that to me says even more about his level.

We need a better halfback in order to win a premiership, pure and simple - Hodgson isn't enough. They don't have to be a reincarnation of Ricky Stuart, a guy around the Chad Townsend or Blake Green level will do fine.
Why are you moving the goalposts so much. The point isnt that sezer is a great halfback, its that hes miles agead of sam williams. They are two completely different points.
Imagine hating a player in your team so much you cant even enjoy when he does something good
Give him a break. He backed the wrong horse and is struggling to come to terms with it.
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Just affogato maintaining his usual standard of post.
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Re: Williams or Sezer?

Post by Roger Kenworthy » June 14, 2019, 9:44 pm

Havili was not a serious suggestion - I was just trying to point out there is more to halves play than just defence. Pigrick actually addressed Sezer being a poor kicker in general play so I am taking that as a win :lol:

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