Civic Stadium would ensure Raiders' future in Canberra: Furner

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Civic Stadium would ensure Raiders' future in Canberra: Furner

Post by greeneyed » March 27, 2019, 2:44 pm

Civic Stadium would ensure Canberra Raiders future in the national capital: Don Furner

Their new centre of excellence will help, but a Civic Stadium would ensure the Canberra Raiders stay out of the NRL's relocation equation, Green Machine CEO Don Furner says.

"We represent not just Canberra, but the region. It's a massive region," he said. "And the NSW country produce a lot of NRL players. We're just completing a centre of excellence and if we got a new stadium down the track there's no way they could move us."

Read more: https://www.canberratimes.com.au/sport/ ... 517on.html
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Post by edwahu » March 27, 2019, 4:17 pm

I hope the NRL sees our value beyond TV money but I am not convinced we have the leadership on either party's side to make sure that's the case long term.

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Re: Civic Stadium would ensure Raiders' future in Canberra: Furner

Post by BJ » March 27, 2019, 4:33 pm

I’m always amazed that the NRL doesn’t use the Raiders as a buffer for keeping AFL from growing more in Western Sydney.

If AFL and GWS had to work harder to retain canberra it would effect their Sydney efforts to grow their game.

AFL shows every GWS game on Canberra free to air, Raiders get a couple of games a year. No wonder poorer kids without Foxtel are falling for AFL and their gear giveaways.

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Re: Civic Stadium would ensure Raiders' future in Canberra: Furner

Post by Timbo » March 27, 2019, 4:33 pm

With the rumours that the NRL is going to start using criteria - one of which being stadiums - to force a Sydney club or two to move you’d hope that the club and government are being proactive here.
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Re: Civic Stadium would ensure Raiders' future in Canberra: Furner

Post by sprintman » March 27, 2019, 4:34 pm

You think the ACT govt care?

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Re: Civic Stadium would ensure Raiders' future in Canberra: Furner

Post by greeneyed » March 27, 2019, 4:58 pm

Not with Andrew Barr in charge.
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Re: Civic Stadium would ensure Raiders' future in Canberra: Furner

Post by Timbo » March 27, 2019, 5:23 pm

Hypothetically, if they do force the Eagles and Sharks to move - who seem to be the likely candidates - and the remainder of Sydney’s clubs start using either the New SFS, New Parra or renovated ANZ as their main ground then that would leave us as the team with the worst stadium in the league as their primary ground.
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Re: Civic Stadium would ensure Raiders' future in Canberra: Furner

Post by gergreg » March 27, 2019, 5:42 pm

BJ wrote:I’m always amazed that the NRL doesn’t use the Raiders as a buffer for keeping AFL from growing more in Western Sydney.

If AFL and GWS had to work harder to retain canberra it would effect their Sydney efforts to grow their game.

AFL shows every GWS game on Canberra free to air, Raiders get a couple of games a year. No wonder poorer kids without Foxtel are falling for AFL and their gear giveaways.
The problem all along is that the NRL have had the 'we can happily co-exist' with AFL mentality but I honestly don't think the AFL has the same mindset.

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Re: Civic Stadium would ensure Raiders' future in Canberra: Furner

Post by greeneyed » March 27, 2019, 5:44 pm

gergreg wrote:
March 27, 2019, 5:42 pm
BJ wrote:I’m always amazed that the NRL doesn’t use the Raiders as a buffer for keeping AFL from growing more in Western Sydney.

If AFL and GWS had to work harder to retain canberra it would effect their Sydney efforts to grow their game.

AFL shows every GWS game on Canberra free to air, Raiders get a couple of games a year. No wonder poorer kids without Foxtel are falling for AFL and their gear giveaways.
The problem all along is that the NRL have had the 'we can happily co-exist' with AFL mentality but I honestly don't think the AFL has the same mindset.

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They certainly don't.
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Re: Civic Stadium would ensure Raiders' future in Canberra: Furner

Post by edwahu » March 27, 2019, 5:45 pm

gergreg wrote:
March 27, 2019, 5:42 pm
BJ wrote:I’m always amazed that the NRL doesn’t use the Raiders as a buffer for keeping AFL from growing more in Western Sydney.

If AFL and GWS had to work harder to retain canberra it would effect their Sydney efforts to grow their game.

AFL shows every GWS game on Canberra free to air, Raiders get a couple of games a year. No wonder poorer kids without Foxtel are falling for AFL and their gear giveaways.
The problem all along is that the NRL have had the 'we can happily co-exist' with AFL mentality but I honestly don't think the AFL has the same mindset.

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Re: Civic Stadium would ensure Raiders' future in Canberra: Furner

Post by Lui_Bon » March 27, 2019, 10:42 pm

Barr is the problem.
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Post by Woodgers » March 28, 2019, 10:29 am

greeneyed wrote:
March 27, 2019, 5:44 pm
gergreg wrote:
March 27, 2019, 5:42 pm
BJ wrote:I’m always amazed that the NRL doesn’t use the Raiders as a buffer for keeping AFL from growing more in Western Sydney.

If AFL and GWS had to work harder to retain canberra it would effect their Sydney efforts to grow their game.

AFL shows every GWS game on Canberra free to air, Raiders get a couple of games a year. No wonder poorer kids without Foxtel are falling for AFL and their gear giveaways.
The problem all along is that the NRL have had the 'we can happily co-exist' with AFL mentality but I honestly don't think the AFL has the same mindset.

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They certainly don't.
Of course they don't. They're so far in front of the NRL that it is laughable. The NRL is asleep at the wheel while AFL is proactively saturating RL strongholds.

While the NRL is consumed with the daily business of survival, the AFL is luring the next generation of participants and making losses on products such as AFLW which they know may not be the best spectacle but it positions them smack in the middle of the female market so they'll make that money back in no time. Last week I heard about one of my Daughter's friends in Grade 1 at school who has been doing AusKick and was determined to finish the last 4 weeks to get her new Bluetooth speaker which was the incentive for kids to complete the 6 week sessions after school. They are lightyears in front of the NRL on all these facets of attracting new participants and spectators, and it appears to me that the NRL are oblivious to it all.
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Re: Civic Stadium would ensure Raiders' future in Canberra: Furner

Post by BJ » March 28, 2019, 1:37 pm

Spot on Woodgers. Kids team I used to coach lost a couple of players each season to AFL poachers and GWS school visits.

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Post by BJ » March 28, 2019, 1:40 pm

I need to change the Joni Mitchell song for Tuggeranong.

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Re: Civic Stadium would ensure Raiders' future in Canberra: Furner

Post by Northern Raider » March 28, 2019, 2:14 pm

Back on the original topic. I really don't see Raiders as part of any relocation discussion. They have a financially sustainable model. Relocation is normally the remedy when a team is on the fast track to bankruptcy.
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Post by PigRickman » March 28, 2019, 7:40 pm

The best thing to said about the QBN mafia is they are set up very well to ensure the club is viable long into the future

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Re: Civic Stadium would ensure Raiders' future in Canberra: Furner

Post by Bay53 » March 28, 2019, 8:58 pm

I couldn’t see the NRL expanding the game by reducing the reach in another market.

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Post by Bay53 » March 28, 2019, 9:00 pm

Having said that, I have said repeatedly that imagine NRL in 2025 and there is a real chance we will have the worst stadium in the competition.

(Potentially there may be one or two country venues used or places like Leichhardt for one or two games a year - I am referring to venues used for the vast majority of home games)

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Re: Civic Stadium would ensure Raiders' future in Canberra: Furner

Post by gergreg » March 28, 2019, 9:09 pm

Northern Raider wrote:Back on the original topic. I really don't see Raiders as part of any relocation discussion. They have a financially sustainable model. Relocation is normally the remedy when a team is on the fast track to bankruptcy.
Yes, the club is just trying to pressure Barr, but history shows he really doesn't give a ****.

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Post by Dr Zaius » March 28, 2019, 10:30 pm

Really? I could. They've got a good track record of being short sighted
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Post by edwahu » March 29, 2019, 4:58 am

Let's see what happens when the NRL execs are scrambling to get another big broadcast deal and one of the TV execs tells them Canberra is a near worthless spot to have a team to them. We saw what happened in the A-League recently.

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Post by Timbo » March 29, 2019, 10:20 am

Woodgers wrote:
March 28, 2019, 10:29 am
greeneyed wrote:
March 27, 2019, 5:44 pm
gergreg wrote:
March 27, 2019, 5:42 pm
BJ wrote:I’m always amazed that the NRL doesn’t use the Raiders as a buffer for keeping AFL from growing more in Western Sydney.

If AFL and GWS had to work harder to retain canberra it would effect their Sydney efforts to grow their game.

AFL shows every GWS game on Canberra free to air, Raiders get a couple of games a year. No wonder poorer kids without Foxtel are falling for AFL and their gear giveaways.
The problem all along is that the NRL have had the 'we can happily co-exist' with AFL mentality but I honestly don't think the AFL has the same mindset.

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They certainly don't.
Of course they don't. They're so far in front of the NRL that it is laughable. The NRL is asleep at the wheel while AFL is proactively saturating RL strongholds.

While the NRL is consumed with the daily business of survival, the AFL is luring the next generation of participants and making losses on products such as AFLW which they know may not be the best spectacle but it positions them smack in the middle of the female market so they'll make that money back in no time. Last week I heard about one of my Daughter's friends in Grade 1 at school who has been doing AusKick and was determined to finish the last 4 weeks to get her new Bluetooth speaker which was the incentive for kids to complete the 6 week sessions after school. They are lightyears in front of the NRL on all these facets of attracting new participants and spectators, and it appears to me that the NRL are oblivious to it all.
I used to work for an agency that got American college students internships in Sydney. One of our partners for our sports management students was GWS.

We regularly had groups of academics who came out to tour the facilities and check out our partners. In the past I had taken them to some of our other partners (the Bulldogs, or occasionally the Eels) and they had always been good, had a little chat to us and shown them around Belmore or Parra. They were both unavailable on this day, so I arranged to take them to the GWS head office at Olympic Park.

Whereas the Dogs and Eels had usually gotten a member of the marketing team, or a middle manager to come and chat about the organisation for fifteen minutes before a quick tour, the Giants sat us down in the board room and one of the senior execs came in and talked about the club, its vision and how the students fit into this vision. He was American (he had worked for the Red Sox in a senior role previously) and his deputy, who had been an operations manager for the University of Texas Football program also talked at length.

So I'm the only Aussie in the room, and half way through the presentation he gets a question from one of the academics: 'I've done my research, and I see your crowds are tiny compared to the rest of the league - can you explain that?' he stops, turns to me and goes 'hey Tim, real quick, you're the only Aussie here - you'd be a Swans man right?'. I say, well look, I grew up in Sydney and I'm actually an NRL guy. And he responds 'that's the exact response I expected, and if I can be blunt Tim, I'm not interested in you - I'm after your kids. Because if in twenty years you've got an eight year old who really, really wants to go to the footy and it's our footy and not the NRL, then we've won'.

He then explained how they are prepared to take a bath for the next two decades because they know that Western Sydney isn't going to start following AFL overnight and that it's very much a marathon, not a sprint for them. They then took us on a full tour of the facilities, Leon Cameron (their head coach) stopped and talked to us for fifteen minutes about the vision of the organisation and then - the cherry on top - they let us raid the merch store. He literally said 'take whatever you want and I'll write it off'. These academics walked out of there with about five grand worth of merch (one took jerseys for each of her five kids and sixteen grand-kids!).

People mock the Giants, but in my dealings with them, they are absolutely playing 4D chess and I have no doubt they will be wildly successful in the long run.
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Post by zim » March 29, 2019, 10:51 am

AFL Boardroom exec wants to EDIT -- seems to be what tim is trying to say.

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Post by Woodgers » March 29, 2019, 11:00 am

Thanks for sharing Timbo. That is exactly what I thought is happening and why the AFL is so far in front of the rest of the other sports in a highly competitive marketplace.
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Post by edwahu » March 29, 2019, 11:03 am

I know that's what they want to do, but a bad strategy can be very professionally executed and still be a bad strategy. It's already 10 years and they are costing 25m a season for the AFL to keep afloat all based on what I believe is a frankly fairly colonial view of Western Sydney and it's demographics. They run a lot of programs but the conversion to fans doesn't seem to be happening if you look at ratings and crowds and their actual participation numbers aren't growing at a huge rate relative to the NRL either.

I mean in the history of professional sports I think you would struggle to identify any that have "taken over" in the last century and pushed another sport out, and when they do it's not the indigenous codes that win out.
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Post by BJ » March 29, 2019, 12:04 pm

I’d mentioned a few years ago that I had seen the AFL strategic plan for Canberra. Let’s just say they are ahead of track.

I’ve never seen the NRL Strategic plan for the Canberra region. But If it’s...... do nothing for local fans, avoid free to air television coverage for the Raiders and ensure the Raiders give up on junior development, than the NRL plan is also on track.

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Post by Timbo » March 29, 2019, 12:25 pm

edwahu wrote:
March 29, 2019, 11:03 am
I know that's what they want to do, but a bad strategy can be very professionally executed and still be a bad strategy. It's already 10 years and they are costing 25m a season for the AFL to keep afloat all based on what I believe is a frankly fairly colonial view of Western Sydney and it's demographics. They run a lot of programs but the conversion to fans doesn't seem to be happening if you look at ratings and crowds and their actual participation numbers aren't growing at a huge rate relative to the NRL either.

I mean in the history of professional sports I think you would struggle to identify any that have "taken over" in the last century and pushed another sport out, and when they do it's not the indigenous codes that win out.
I get that too, but which football team in Sydney currently has the highest home crowd average? I dare say there were a lot of people in 1982 who thought this whole South Melbourne thing would be a massive failure. Do you reckon if you'd told Gary Jack that he'd have a son who was a professional footballer, he'd have ever guessed it'd be with a Sherrin not a Steeden?

They play the long, long, looooong game. The NRL demands instant results or suddenly people are baying for blood. There aren't too many AFL fans calling for the Suns or Giants to be wound up, because they understand the long term vision of the code. But there are an awful lot of NRL fans who suggest the Titans should be moved on.
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Post by edwahu » March 29, 2019, 12:30 pm

Sure, but what real impact have the swans had on Rugby League in Sydney? I would say little quantifiable at all.

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Post by BJ » March 29, 2019, 12:37 pm

edwahu wrote:Sure, but what real impact have the swans had on Rugby League in Sydney? I would say little quantifiable at all.
I guess it depends whether you think a tenfold increase in TV viewership and junior numbers playing your sport in Sydney is an impact or not.

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Post by edwahu » March 29, 2019, 12:49 pm

BJ wrote:
March 29, 2019, 12:37 pm
edwahu wrote:Sure, but what real impact have the swans had on Rugby League in Sydney? I would say little quantifiable at all.
I guess it depends whether you think a tenfold increase in TV viewership and junior numbers playing your sport in Sydney is an impact or not.
So what's your estimated impact to the NRL? How much more do we get last TV deal if the Swans don't exist?

All the evidence suggests the sports market isn't a zero sum game, even if the AFL acts like it is.
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Post by Timbo » March 29, 2019, 12:54 pm

BJ wrote:
March 29, 2019, 12:37 pm
edwahu wrote:Sure, but what real impact have the swans had on Rugby League in Sydney? I would say little quantifiable at all.
I guess it depends whether you think a tenfold increase in TV viewership and junior numbers playing your sport in Sydney is an impact or not.
Yeah exactly. Also, unless you assume the 35,000 odd people who rock up to the Swans every week and the 150,000 or so who watch their games on TV in NSW would have been following no sport at all pre-1982, these are probably fans lost to the NRL.

Also, to flip it around, is the NRL having the same impact on Melbourne with the Storm as the AFL are having on Sydney with the Swans?

I think there is just an element of how risk averse and totally gunshy the NRL is and has been ever since the end of Super League. The AFL goes '**** it, we'll lose some money but we can take the hit and in the long run this is beneficial to to the code'. The league is still terrified of committing into Perth in case it doesn't go well immediately. Well, of course it won't go immediately. Unless you're prepared to stick it out for a generation, then any expansion will be stillborn.
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Post by edwahu » March 29, 2019, 12:58 pm

I assume that people can follow two sports and that there are other sports and non sports fans they could have drawn fans from. I would say the majority of fans fall into that category.

Sure, the Swans probably have taken some Rugby League fans along the way, but the real numbers aren't going to be substantial and that's not been a limiting factor on Rugby Leagues own growth at all, especially compared to other factors.

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Post by Timbo » March 29, 2019, 1:25 pm

edwahu wrote:
March 29, 2019, 12:58 pm
I assume that people can follow two sports and that there are other sports and non sports fans they could have drawn fans from. I would say the majority of fans fall into that category.

Sure, the Swans probably have taken some Rugby League fans along the way, but the real numbers aren't going to be substantial and that's not been a limiting factor on Rugby Leagues own growth at all, especially compared to other factors.
No, you are right on that count - I go to plenty of rugby union matches and I'm not lost to NRL.

But, I guess the issue is where the juniors are. Kids sports are expensive and time consuming, I doubt there are too many kids playing AFL and RL at junior levels simultaneously. AFL has over 10,000 registered juniors in NSW and around 11,000 in Qld - these numbers may be small, but they are kids who chose to play AFL over RL and they aren't doing that in a vacuum.
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Post by yurithe1 » March 29, 2019, 7:20 pm

Timbo wrote:
March 29, 2019, 1:25 pm
edwahu wrote:
March 29, 2019, 12:58 pm
I assume that people can follow two sports and that there are other sports and non sports fans they could have drawn fans from. I would say the majority of fans fall into that category.

Sure, the Swans probably have taken some Rugby League fans along the way, but the real numbers aren't going to be substantial and that's not been a limiting factor on Rugby Leagues own growth at all, especially compared to other factors.
No, you are right on that count - I go to plenty of rugby union matches and I'm not lost to NRL.

But, I guess the issue is where the juniors are. Kids sports are expensive and time consuming, I doubt there are too many kids playing AFL and RL at junior levels simultaneously. AFL has over 10,000 registered juniors in NSW and around 11,000 in Qld - these numbers may be small, but they are kids who chose to play AFL over RL and they aren't doing that in a vacuum.
No, that's kids' mothers who saw the crap that NRL players came up with over the years and decided that Aussie Rules was the way to go because they don't get anywhere near the same negative coverage in NSW and Qld. Realistically, they don't get much non-game coverage to speak of and that's a good thing for them. Kids might want to play a certain sport, but it's the parents – usually the mother – who makes the final decision.

In contrast, I was speaking to a female work colleague a couple of years ago and she still won't have a bar of the Bulldogs because when she was 15, the Coffs Harbour rape scandal blew up. Regardless of no charges being laid, that scared and scarred her. The current allegations up before the courts might have done something similar to this current generation of female teens who are going to grow up and become primary influencers as mums and maybe aunts.

If the NRL can clean up its image and get mums on-side, they'll at least shore things up in the present day.
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Post by raiderskater » March 29, 2019, 8:23 pm

yurithe1 wrote:
March 29, 2019, 7:20 pm
In contrast, I was speaking to a female work colleague a couple of years ago and she still won't have a bar of the Bulldogs because when she was 15, the Coffs Harbour rape scandal blew up. Regardless of no charges being laid, that scared and scarred her. The current allegations up before the courts might have done something similar to this current generation of female teens who are going to grow up and become primary influencers as mums and maybe aunts.

If the NRL can clean up its image and get mums on-side, they'll at least shore things up in the present day.
My concern - though of course the rapists and sexual assaulters running around the league is a massive concern - would be more along the lines of my little niece/nephew/child being hurt. I watch league and see blatant disregard for the effect of concussion, very few players wearing headgear, players being encouraged or allowed to play on through obviously severe injury, and the Storm inventing new ways to rip people's joints out of their sockets without getting punished for it every year.

It's the grubby Bull that would turn me off allowing my child to play league. Contact sports, well, stuff happens, but it's the attitude to injury - remember Burgess being called a hero for playing through a fractured cheekbone? - that would put a lot of people off.


Oh, and as for the Civic Stadium - no-one's yet satisfactorily explained to me exactly WHERE they're gonna put it!
Last edited by greeneyed on March 29, 2019, 11:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Please don't avoid the swearing filter
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