Canberra Raiders sign Wigan Warriors half George Williams on three year deal

[Northern Raider]

A lot of people my age (i.e. those who didn't watch Stuart play) like to talk about how Johns was the best 7 ever... but most older friends and colleagues, and a lot of non-Raiders fans included, tell me that Stuart is the GOAT when it comes to halfbacks. From what I've seen in highlights and what I've heard/know about league history, I gotta agree with the older heads. Stuart is the master, Johns is just a student. He's the grandfather of the modern half play.

It's debatable and really comes back to personal opinion. Thing is Johns has been names an Immortal while Stuart hasn't. Also Johns has 3 x Dally M awards vs 1 for Stuart. Just on that it's hard to make an objective case to rank Stuart ahead of him as a halfback.

With that all said you could make a solid case that Thurston is ahead of both.

[The Nickman]

As you all know, I’m a massive Queensland fan, but even I don’t think Thurston was better than Stuart. Better then Langer and Johns? Certainly.

But not Stuart

[greeneyed]

I believe Stuart was a better half back than Johns, no risk. And Wally Lewis was the player of the century, not Andrew Johns. The Sydney media has a history of jumping on certain players and pumping them up.

[julian87]

As I’ve said before. Only on a Canberra forum.

[afgtnk]

Yeaahh it'll understandably be unpopular on here but even though I think Ricky Stuart was a genius player and criminally underrated by the RL fraternity, Johns is the best number 7 ever to me.

I've never seen a halfback be able to exert that much control and influence consistently over games as much as he did. When the ball went to him it seemed as if every play he made was the perfect one for that given moment.

[Northern Raider]

Yeaahh it'll understandably be unpopular on here but even though I think Ricky Stuart was a genius player and criminally underrated by the RL fraternity, Johns is the best number 7 ever to me.

I've never seen a halfback be able to exert that much control and influence consistently over games as much as he did. When the ball went to him it seemed as if every play he made was the perfect one for that given moment.

Johns and Thurston are good comparisons as both were able to dominate games and almost carry a team themselves. A case can be made for each but I think to say one is better is a bit unfair to the other. Stuart was more a Cooper Cronk onfield general type but with a better natural skill set. I'd have him at a clear no3 ahead of guys like Cronk and Langer.

[Matt]

Put it this way...
What could Johns do that Ricky couldnt?
The triple coutout? Nope, Ricky did it with leather balls.
Banana kicks? Nope.
Torpedo bombs? Nope.
Win games by himself? Nope.
Johns was just the next guy to do all these things and the modern era remember him more clearly.

TBF, Ricky always had a much better supporting cast. I think this is the stigma that overshadows his credentials.

The only think I credit Johns with over Ricky is front line, 1 on 1 defense. HOWEVER, that is as much a generational thing as anything else.

As far as halfbacks go Id go:
Ricky
JT
Johns
Langer

[The Nickman]

Put it this way...
What could Johns do that Ricky couldnt?
The triple coutout? Nope, Ricky did it with leather balls.
Banana kicks? Nope.
Torpedo bombs? Nope.
Win games by himself? Nope.
Johns was just the next guy to do all these things and the modern era remember him more clearly.

TBF, Ricky always had a much better supporting cast. I think this is the stigma that overshadows his credentials.

The only think I credit Johns with over Ricky is front line, 1 on 1 defense. HOWEVER, that is as much a generational thing as anything else.

As far as halfbacks go Id go:
Ricky
JT
Johns
Langer

That's exactly how I'd rank them too, Matty.

Maybe even Cronk above Langer. Maybe.

[RedRaider]

I believe Stuart was a better half back than Johns, no risk. And Wally Lewis was the player of the century, not Andrew Johns. The Sydney media has a history of jumping on certain players and pumping them up.

I take your extreme youth into account in that you would not have seen much of Gasnier, Raper, Langlands or Beetson. A different era and style of footy, I know, but they played at a time when International football was a real contest.

[Wiki Special]

I think Ricky is underrated as a halfback against other greats too, however I still have Johns above him. And mainly because of the point listed by Matt - he hit like a backrower in defence. Like Wally Lewis did too. Those 2 plus Smith are the 3 best players I have seen.

And Langer was definitely inferior to Stuart.

[greeneyed]

I believe Stuart was a better half back than Johns, no risk. And Wally Lewis was the player of the century, not Andrew Johns. The Sydney media has a history of jumping on certain players and pumping them up.

I take your extreme youth into account in that you would not have seen much of Gasnier, Raper, Langlands or Beetson. A different era and style of footy, I know, but they played at a time when International football was a real contest.

My extreme youth?! The ranking in 2008 had Wally Lewis at two. I really don't like the bloke, couldn't stand him when I was a younger person, playing against my team in Brisbane. But I've no doubt he's still the best player I've ever seen.

[Botman]

I’ve got JT first

[reptar]

Needs more Marc Herbert

[-PJ-]

Stick..all day.

And rep, can't you be serious for just a minute..

Needs more Tulsen Tollett.

[T_R]

If I was four points down, stuck on my goal line with one minute to go and playing for my sheep station, I'd choose Stuart to be my half.

[afgtnk]

Put it this way...
What could Johns do that Ricky couldnt?
The triple coutout? Nope, Ricky did it with leather balls.
Banana kicks? Nope.
Torpedo bombs? Nope.
Win games by himself? Nope.
Johns was just the next guy to do all these things and the modern era remember him more clearly.

TBF, Ricky always had a much better supporting cast. I think this is the stigma that overshadows his credentials.

The only think I credit Johns with over Ricky is front line, 1 on 1 defense. HOWEVER, that is as much a generational thing as anything else.

As far as halfbacks go Id go:
Ricky
JT
Johns
Langer

If triple cutout passes and banana kicks were measures of greatness we'd be talking about the likes of Tim Smith and Brett Firman as household names of the past. You don't need to have party tricks to be considered great.

Ultimately I think it comes down things like to control, influence, vision, thinking ahead of the opposition. I haven't seen anyone do it better than Johns at halfback. At hooker, Smith has got everyone covered. At five-eight probably Lewis, although I maybe haven't seen enough of him to comment.

[Botman]

I’ve got JT first

Just to further this because this seems to be about Stuart vs Johns
Ive always hate newcastle and Ricky Stuart was quite literally my idol growing up, i had signed cared and an autographed photo of him in my green painted room...
So i've always had Stuart above him but i honestly dont know what part of that is honest, open assessment or just Stuart was my favourite player by a long way.

I dont think Johns was as good as he's made out to be. I think he was VERY good, a great of the game. But i dont think his kicking game was on Stuart's level, and tbh i dont think that is particularly close. I think their passing games are on par, defensively Johns has the nod by a good margin and in the running game, but vision and control? I've never seen a player who played the game more moves ahead than Stuart.

I've got JT first because i think he was objectively better than Johns and i assume my love for Stuart is just green googles.

[Northern Raider]

I'm not sure if any half had a better kicking game than Stuart. No argument from me about him being GOAT in that aspect.

[Botman]

i've said before and i'll say it 10000 times before i die.
If Stuart played in a 40/20 era, the raiders would have been virtually unbeatable. Teams would have to sell out so hard to stop that play that it would open things up for the rest of the sqaud and if they didnt sell out, he could have 3-4 40/20's a game

[Northern Raider]

i've said before and i'll say it 10000 times before i die.
If Stuart played in a 40/20 era, the raiders would have been virtually unbeatable. Teams would have to sell out so hard to stop that play that it would open things up for the rest of the sqaud and if they didnt sell out, he could have 3-4 40/20's a game

I believe that Stuart's kicking was instrumental to the introduction of the rule. Many felt that greater reward was needed for these long touch finders so they came up with the 40/20.

[Seiffert82]

Stuart was arguably the most under-rated halfback to play the game. Our club went to the next level in 1988 when he arrived. His kicking game was phenomenal and he orchestrated the Green Machine attack like a magician. In 1993 we were absolute morals to win the comp until he broke his leg. We had lost something like 1 game in 15 rounds - then he breaks his leg when we flog Parra 68-0 and we comprehensively lose 3 straight games to bow out of the comp in a whimper.

Stuart has never had the recognition he deserves.

Yep, that inexplicable leg break cost us the 1993 Premiership in all likelihood (IIRC he was just making a routine tackle going backwards and it just snapped).

Agree about the kicking game and generalisimo organisation, but I reckon the biggest thing Ricky brought to the game was his mastery of the long spiral pass, from both sides. There had been players that threw the occasional spiral (usually from right to left...Wally Lewis comes to mind), but Ricky was the first who could change the point of attack from both sides by loading up a 20 metre+ spiral to give his outside men acres of space. He made Lozza and Mal look better than they otherwise would have...notice how their impact was severely dampened when poor old Steve Stone took over in 1993.

There'll probably never be another half like him again, because his era saw the last of the deep-backline structures that rewarded his style of passing game. With the modern obsession with advantage-line passing and post-contact metres, our halves are just shadows of guys like Ricky.

Oh, and Alfie Langer should thank his lucky stars that he kept Ricky out the Australian No. 7 jersey for so long...absolute travesty.

Oh yeah, that long passing game. 100% spot on. The space that and his kicking game gave our outside backs should never be underestimated.

[Seiffert82]

Pointed comment from Josh Hodgson last night on the Matty Johns Sunday Night show. When asked about George Williams he highlighted that he has a great short kicking game and then added that this is an area - getting repeat sets - where we have not been good enough.

Yep, I picked that up too. Wonder if Sezer was watching the show?

Incidentally, Matty Johns also said that Stick was the best player he ever played against...high praise indeed.

Stuart was arguably the most under-rated halfback to play the game. Our club went to the next level in 1988 when he arrived. His kicking game was phenomenal and he orchestrated the Green Machine attack like a magician. In 1993 we were absolute morals to win the comp until he broke his leg. We had lost something like 1 game in 15 rounds - then he breaks his leg when we flog Parra 68-0 and we comprehensively lose 3 straight games to bow out of the comp in a whimper.

Stuart has never had the recognition he deserves.

He used to get it. You watch any games from 1994 and guys like Ray Warren and Peter Sterling wax lyrical about how he's the greatest player they've ever seen... the sad thing is though, he gets injured in 96 and people seem to forget about him, and then Channel 9 picked up this weird obsession with Andrew Johns I've never quite understood and... well, you know the rest

Yeah, he got a bit of love in the mid 90s, but as you say, for whatever reason Johns somehow took all the limelight even though Stuart relegated him to dummy half in many rep teams during that period.

Anyway, he was a phenomenal half with the ball. Not as good as Johns in defence, but his kicking, passing, organisation and game management was every bit as good as Johns. He would have destroyed the opposition if 40/20s were around in his day.

[afgtnk]

Pointed comment from Josh Hodgson last night on the Matty Johns Sunday Night show. When asked about George Williams he highlighted that he has a great short kicking game and then added that this is an area - getting repeat sets - where we have not been good enough.

Yep, I picked that up too. Wonder if Sezer was watching the show?

Incidentally, Matty Johns also said that Stick was the best player he ever played against...high praise indeed.

Stuart was arguably the most under-rated halfback to play the game. Our club went to the next level in 1988 when he arrived. His kicking game was phenomenal and he orchestrated the Green Machine attack like a magician. In 1993 we were absolute morals to win the comp until he broke his leg. We had lost something like 1 game in 15 rounds - then he breaks his leg when we flog Parra 68-0 and we comprehensively lose 3 straight games to bow out of the comp in a whimper.

Stuart has never had the recognition he deserves.

He used to get it. You watch any games from 1994 and guys like Ray Warren and Peter Sterling wax lyrical about how he's the greatest player they've ever seen... the sad thing is though, he gets injured in 96 and people seem to forget about him, and then Channel 9 picked up this weird obsession with Andrew Johns I've never quite understood and... well, you know the rest

Yeah, he got a bit of love in the mid 90s, but as you say, for whatever reason Johns somehow took all the limelight even though Stuart relegated him to dummy half in many rep teams during that period.

Anyway, he was a phenomenal half with the ball. Not as good as Johns in defence, but his kicking, passing, organisation and game management was every bit as good as Johns. He would have destroyed the opposition if 40/20s were around in his day.

That wasn't Stuart - it was more the likes of Langer and Kimmorley.

Johns paid the price for being able to defend like a forward. The selectors saw an opportunity to jam in as much quality as they could into the sides, hence he got moved to the middle of the park to accommodate. No different to Fittler playing lock, especially late in his rep career.

[greeneyed]

Yep, I picked that up too. Wonder if Sezer was watching the show?

Incidentally, Matty Johns also said that Stick was the best player he ever played against...high praise indeed.

Stuart was arguably the most under-rated halfback to play the game. Our club went to the next level in 1988 when he arrived. His kicking game was phenomenal and he orchestrated the Green Machine attack like a magician. In 1993 we were absolute morals to win the comp until he broke his leg. We had lost something like 1 game in 15 rounds - then he breaks his leg when we flog Parra 68-0 and we comprehensively lose 3 straight games to bow out of the comp in a whimper.

Stuart has never had the recognition he deserves.

He used to get it. You watch any games from 1994 and guys like Ray Warren and Peter Sterling wax lyrical about how he's the greatest player they've ever seen... the sad thing is though, he gets injured in 96 and people seem to forget about him, and then Channel 9 picked up this weird obsession with Andrew Johns I've never quite understood and... well, you know the rest

Yeah, he got a bit of love in the mid 90s, but as you say, for whatever reason Johns somehow took all the limelight even though Stuart relegated him to dummy half in many rep teams during that period.

Anyway, he was a phenomenal half with the ball. Not as good as Johns in defence, but his kicking, passing, organisation and game management was every bit as good as Johns. He would have destroyed the opposition if 40/20s were around in his day.

That wasn't Stuart - it was more the likes of Langer and Kimmorley.

Johns paid the price for being able to defend like a forward. The selectors saw an opportunity to jam in as much quality as they could into the sides, hence he got moved to the middle of the park to accommodate. No different to Fittler playing lock, especially late in his rep career.

That's rubbish. Johns simply wasn't good enough to make the team in his own position. The Sydney media machine was already in full swing. Selected when it wasn't deserved.

[Johno]

If I was four points down, stuck on my goal line with one minute to go and playing for my sheep station, I'd choose Stuart to be my half.

And if you were on the oppositions goal line in the last minute you would be happy to play for two sheep stations.

[afgtnk]

Stuart was arguably the most under-rated halfback to play the game. Our club went to the next level in 1988 when he arrived. His kicking game was phenomenal and he orchestrated the Green Machine attack like a magician. In 1993 we were absolute morals to win the comp until he broke his leg. We had lost something like 1 game in 15 rounds - then he breaks his leg when we flog Parra 68-0 and we comprehensively lose 3 straight games to bow out of the comp in a whimper.

Stuart has never had the recognition he deserves.

He used to get it. You watch any games from 1994 and guys like Ray Warren and Peter Sterling wax lyrical about how he's the greatest player they've ever seen... the sad thing is though, he gets injured in 96 and people seem to forget about him, and then Channel 9 picked up this weird obsession with Andrew Johns I've never quite understood and... well, you know the rest

Yeah, he got a bit of love in the mid 90s, but as you say, for whatever reason Johns somehow took all the limelight even though Stuart relegated him to dummy half in many rep teams during that period.

Anyway, he was a phenomenal half with the ball. Not as good as Johns in defence, but his kicking, passing, organisation and game management was every bit as good as Johns. He would have destroyed the opposition if 40/20s were around in his day.

That wasn't Stuart - it was more the likes of Langer and Kimmorley.

Johns paid the price for being able to defend like a forward. The selectors saw an opportunity to jam in as much quality as they could into the sides, hence he got moved to the middle of the park to accommodate. No different to Fittler playing lock, especially late in his rep career.

That's rubbish. Johns simply wasn't good enough to make the team in his own position. The Sydney media machine was already in full swing. Selected when it wasn't deserved.

Cmon mate.

He was selected at hooker mostly in 1999 and 2000, when he was at near the peak of his powers. Langer and Kimmorley, despite their quality, can't hold a candle to him and even the most biased fan has to be able to admit that. If he wasn't good enough they wouldn't have picked him in a position he didn't play.

RL was just lucky at the time to have a glut of great halves in the 90s and early 2000s. Next we'll be told Trent Barrett was better than Brad Fittler because he had him moved to Lock.

[greeneyed]

He used to get it. You watch any games from 1994 and guys like Ray Warren and Peter Sterling wax lyrical about how he's the greatest player they've ever seen... the sad thing is though, he gets injured in 96 and people seem to forget about him, and then Channel 9 picked up this weird obsession with Andrew Johns I've never quite understood and... well, you know the rest

Yeah, he got a bit of love in the mid 90s, but as you say, for whatever reason Johns somehow took all the limelight even though Stuart relegated him to dummy half in many rep teams during that period.

Anyway, he was a phenomenal half with the ball. Not as good as Johns in defence, but his kicking, passing, organisation and game management was every bit as good as Johns. He would have destroyed the opposition if 40/20s were around in his day.

That wasn't Stuart - it was more the likes of Langer and Kimmorley.

Johns paid the price for being able to defend like a forward. The selectors saw an opportunity to jam in as much quality as they could into the sides, hence he got moved to the middle of the park to accommodate. No different to Fittler playing lock, especially late in his rep career.

That's rubbish. Johns simply wasn't good enough to make the team in his own position. The Sydney media machine was already in full swing. Selected when it wasn't deserved.

Cmon mate.

He was selected at hooker mostly in 1999 and 2000, when he was at near the peak of his powers. Langer and Kimmorley, despite their quality, can't hold a candle to him and even the most unbiased has to be able to admit that. If he wasn't good enough they wouldn't have picked him in a position he didn't play.

RL was just lucky at the time to have a glut of great halves in the 90s and early 2000s.

If he was good enough, he’d have been picked at half. Some people have rose tinted glasses looking back in time. He simply was not the best in his position at the time.

I get it. NSW fans and media have had an agenda for a long time.

[afgtnk]

Then going by that logic and what rep selectors do, shouldn't Langer be better than Stuart?. He played more than double the tests Stuart did, didn't he?

[greeneyed]

Then going by that logic and what rep selectors do, shouldn't Langer be better than Stuart?. He played more than double the tests Stuart did, didn't he?

We all know what actually happened though, don’t we? Every time Langer failed, Stuart came in to fix things.

In contrast, Johns shouldn’t have even been in the team when selected at hooker.

[Matt]

Put it this way...
What could Johns do that Ricky couldnt?
The triple coutout? Nope, Ricky did it with leather balls.
Banana kicks? Nope.
Torpedo bombs? Nope.
Win games by himself? Nope.
Johns was just the next guy to do all these things and the modern era remember him more clearly.

TBF, Ricky always had a much better supporting cast. I think this is the stigma that overshadows his credentials.

The only think I credit Johns with over Ricky is front line, 1 on 1 defense. HOWEVER, that is as much a generational thing as anything else.

As far as halfbacks go Id go:
Ricky
JT
Johns
Langer

If triple cutout passes and banana kicks were measures of greatness we'd be talking about the likes of Tim Smith and Brett Firman as household names of the past. You don't need to have party tricks to be considered great.

Ultimately I think it comes down things like to control, influence, vision, thinking ahead of the opposition. I haven't seen anyone do it better than Johns at halfback. At hooker, Smith has got everyone covered. At five-eight probably Lewis, although I maybe haven't seen enough of him to comment.

People always credit John's with be able to do those things, Ricky did it 1st.

[RedRaider]

Put it this way...
What could Johns do that Ricky couldnt?

Johns filled out the back of his footy shorts far better than Stuart ever could.

This will not go down well with the Rugby vs Rugby League combatants but Sticky brought over a lot of skills learned in Rugby to Rugby League. The long torpedo passes to both sides, watch top level Union halves pass from scrums. They can all do it. Similar with the kicking skills, I am waiting for the day in League when on the final tackle and the half back under pressure and facing his own try line he puts up a spiral bomb by kicking it over his head in the direction of the opponents goal line. You will see this when Union halves are under pressure at the back of a ruck/maul when the forwards are being out muscled.

One thing which could be said about Johns was that he learned and practiced. By his own admission he learned from the skills Sticky had demonstrated. He went off and practiced those skills and mastered them. By general agreement Johns was a better defender than Sticky. There was one thing that Sticky was criticized for during his playing days and that was that he did not run the ball enough and his catch and pass became predictable. When there are players like Loz, Mal and Clyde outside you waiting for the ball, then it would seem crazy not to give it to them. But Johns did not get that criticism because he was one who often took on the line and often got a quick play the ball to allow Buderus time.

[Matt]

Put it this way...
What could Johns do that Ricky couldnt?

Johns filled out the back of his footy shorts far better than Stuart ever could.

This will not go down well with the Rugby vs Rugby League combatants but Sticky brought over a lot of skills learned in Rugby to Rugby League. The long torpedo passes to both sides, watch top level Union halves pass from scrums. They can all do it. Similar with the kicking skills, I am waiting for the day in League when on the final tackle and the half back under pressure and facing his own try line he puts up a spiral bomb by kicking it over his head in the direction of the opponents goal line. You will see this when Union halves are under pressure at the back of a ruck/maul when the forwards are being out muscled.

One thing which could be said about Johns was that he learned and practiced. By his own admission he learned from the skills Sticky had demonstrated. He went off and practiced those skills and mastered them. By general agreement Johns was a better defender than Sticky. There was one thing that Sticky was criticized for during his playing days and that was that he did not run the ball enough and his catch and pass became predictable. When there are players like Loz, Mal and Clyde outside you waiting for the ball, then it would seem crazy not to give it to them. But Johns did not get that criticism because he was one who often took on the line and often got a quick play the ball to allow Buderus time.

Well said

[julian87]

Stuart was an absolute gun. He was the first perfectly complete halfback imo. Players from his starting era weren’t as well rounded or talented (Mortimer and Sterling). Then Langer and co from his era were scheming players but again not as talented.

Stuart changed the game with his ridiculous talent in kicking and passing. He set the standard for what you want in a halfback. His brilliance in those facets allowed Laurie Daley to become the best five eighth in the game. If Daley didn’t have Stuart I’m not sure he would have been as good as a club 6.

I think Johns (as everyone bar Canberra fans does too) topped him though. He had the same natural talent as well as being much stronger physically. Stuart may have been better but he also played in better teams where he didn’t necessarily have to be the main man every time. I think if you look at the Newcastle teams Johns won comps with it was him or nothing. Matty really wasn’t a rep player and then he won one with Sean bloody Rudder as well. I’m also of the opinion that Johns pulled Budeeus up with him too.

Johns had a more accomplished rep career as well. I think it’s a bit rich for Canberra fans to use the fact he played hooker in rep sides as a negative considering Stuart played less than half the rep footy he did. He was still the key player when picked at 9 and was done so under the old adage of picking your best 13 and fitting them in. I mean Fittler and Daley played plenty of rep footy at kick and center respectively as well because they obviously both had to play. And were both world class pivots. Joey was the best I’ve ever seen. I hated Newcastle so didn’t like him but he’s the best I’ve seen.

Thurston probably deserves to be in the conversation but I still think he was very much a five eighth until his very late 20s when he slowed down a bit. I also subscribe to the theory that Lockyer mastered 3 different positions in his career but didn’t change numbers so people think Thurston played more halfback in rep footy than he actually did. Lockyer was the best fullback. Then he was a gun five eighth. Then he blew his knee and lost a few yards so when he came back he 100% became the halfback but continued to wear #6 until he retired. JT was a gun. And along with GI and Smith deserves immortality down the road as well considering what Qld did and what he did for NQ. But he wasn’t a genuine halfback like Johns and Stuart imo.

[edwahu]

I don't disagree Johns was better, but Stuart played less rep footy then he should've because of the QLD selection block repeatedly pushing for Langer's selection over him for Australia and of course due to Super League rep bans.

For starters Stuart likely wouldve been halfback for NSW and Australia in 95 and John's nowhere near rep footy which swaps 3 Origin games and an entire world cup. That already brings the numbers closer together.

Same goes for players like Mullins and Furner who missed a huge amount of rep footy because of the bans. The selection of players was also heavily influenced for a long time after the bans and the bias against Superleague players that persisted for years afterwards.

[Northern Raider]

Hasn't this thread gone a little off course.