Best fit for Bateman

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BigPapa
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Best fit for Bateman

Post by BigPapa » September 9, 2018, 6:27 pm

Curious to know where people think Bateman suits us best. Who do we move out of Papa, Tapine or Whitehead or does he start off the bench? There seems to be numerous options to move 1 of the above 3 to accommodate him just wondering which option is best.

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edwahu
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Re: Best fit 4 Bateman

Post by edwahu » September 9, 2018, 6:35 pm

I would probably try John Bateman at lock first. People in the UK seem to think it's his best position and I think the trend will be away from the extra prop style locks.

Papa to prop with Whitehead and Tapine in the second row. Lui as the other prop with Guler, Sia, Sutton and Havilli the bench.

One more top line prop to start over Lui and we would look a lot better.

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Best fit 4 Bateman

Post by Sid » September 9, 2018, 6:41 pm

Lock

Papa to prop
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greeneyed
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Re: Best fit for Bateman

Post by greeneyed » September 9, 2018, 6:55 pm

Depends which Bateman you’re talking about.
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Re: Best fit for Bateman

Post by BigPapa » September 9, 2018, 7:11 pm

greeneyed wrote:
September 9, 2018, 6:55 pm
Depends which Bateman you’re talking about.
If you think I'm seriously asking people about moving Papa, Tapine or Whitehead for Luke Bateman then I give up.

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Re: Best fit for Bateman

Post by Rick » September 9, 2018, 9:21 pm

The good Bateman to lock. Papa , Sia, Guler and Lui as props.

Much more mobile pack!


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Re: Best fit for Bateman

Post by -PJ- » September 10, 2018, 6:49 am

8. Lui
9. Hodgo
10. Papa
11. Tapine
12. Whitehead
13. JBateman

14. Havili
15. Guler
16. Sia
17. Sutton

I'll let Ricky know..
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Re: Best fit for Bateman

Post by RedRaider » September 10, 2018, 7:53 am

I think you're right PJ. But Sticky can do some 'out there' things when it comes to selections. When John Bateman played center for England I wonder which side of the field he played on.

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Re: Best fit for Bateman

Post by Matt » September 10, 2018, 8:59 am

Weirdly, I dont think it matters which player you move. All of them are quality, and will perform no matter which number is on their back.

Im happy to go with the consensus of Bateman to lock.

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Re: Best fit for Bateman

Post by -TW- » September 10, 2018, 10:09 am

So based on our 1-5, 8-17 were going to have a decent team

6&7 is where we'll struggle

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Re: Best fit for Bateman

Post by TongueFTW » September 10, 2018, 10:29 am

Whatever we go with, we need to make sure Papa is getting long minutes. Not good practice to spend 750K on a player and then give them 2x20 minutes spells as a starting prop. He has shown he can play 80 at a high level and needs to be doing close to that each week to justify how much of the cap is being spent on him.

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Re: Best fit for Bateman

Post by bonehead » September 10, 2018, 10:55 am

RedRaider wrote:I think you're right PJ. But Sticky can do some 'out there' things when it comes to selections. When John Bateman played center for England I wonder which side of the field he played on.
left in the highlights from the WC. Right edge backrow for wigan currently so he's versatile.
I wasn't overjoyed at his signing based on our back row stocks but with papa up front I'm happy with JBateman doing the terrier work.
Go forward is my fear.

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Re: Best fit for Bateman

Post by Matt » September 10, 2018, 11:21 am

TongueFTW wrote:
September 10, 2018, 10:29 am
Whatever we go with, we need to make sure Papa is getting long minutes. Not good practice to spend 750K on a player and then give them 2x20 minutes spells as a starting prop. He has shown he can play 80 at a high level and needs to be doing close to that each week to justify how much of the cap is being spent on him.
I think he looked his best in those last 4-6 weeks while Ricky was playing him for more like 60mins. He needs a rest either side of the break playing in the middle, unless he works even harder on his endurance.

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Re: Best fit for Bateman

Post by RedRaider » September 10, 2018, 4:46 pm

Matt wrote:
September 10, 2018, 11:21 am
TongueFTW wrote:
September 10, 2018, 10:29 am
Whatever we go with, we need to make sure Papa is getting long minutes. Not good practice to spend 750K on a player and then give them 2x20 minutes spells as a starting prop. He has shown he can play 80 at a high level and needs to be doing close to that each week to justify how much of the cap is being spent on him.
I think he looked his best in those last 4-6 weeks while Ricky was playing him for more like 60mins. He needs a rest either side of the break playing in the middle, unless he works even harder on his endurance.
Hopefully all of our players have been given an off season diet program and have to call the Raiders each week with a weight report. The last thing we need for Papa to do is go on the Samoan diet again like during the World Cup. That cost him fitness at the start of season 2018 and then saw him dropped. I think particularly early in the season Papa, Lui and Sia will be our main Center third yardage men. I have not ruled out Guler but he has only had a handful of FG games. I see him as growing stronger in the role in FG later in the season. No doubt our lateral movement will be faster from the center third players next year.

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Re: Best fit for Bateman

Post by edwahu » September 10, 2018, 4:50 pm

Papalii should have a lot of his salary dependent on his weight and fitness levels.

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Re: Best fit for Bateman

Post by julian87 » September 10, 2018, 5:25 pm

The more I look at the squad, the more I think it’s likely we see Bateman or Whitehead at 6.
well, I guess you could say that I'm buy curious.

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Re: Best fit for Bateman

Post by Seiffert82 » September 11, 2018, 7:20 am

Stuart is not going to put either of those guys in the halves.

If it's not Sezer and Williams (unless someone else is recruited out of the blue), he's a dead set idiot.

The big improvement in our halves will be getting rid of that junk Austin was delivering most weeks.

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Re: Best fit for Bateman

Post by -PJ- » September 11, 2018, 7:47 am

S82...

Tackling the big issues...unlike Brake who couldn't tackle anything.
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Re: Best fit for Bateman

Post by Pigman » September 11, 2018, 10:53 am

Seiffert82 wrote:
September 11, 2018, 7:20 am
Stuart is not going to put either of those guys in the halves.

If it's not Sezer and Williams (unless someone else is recruited out of the blue), he's a dead set idiot.

The big improvement in our halves will be getting rid of that junk Austin was delivering most weeks.
I dont think that's necessarily the case. I think Cotric struggled with the workrate of fullback but he's now got an entire off season to figure that out...

I dont think it's likely but it wouldnt shock me to see a 1. Cotric 6. Wighton 7. Sezer 9. Hodgson spine come week 1.
That's assuming we dont bring in any other halves between now and then. I think Stuart has seen the folly of having halves in this team who cant defend. We dont need Sam Williams creativeness. The team can score points with little from the halves. What it needs is to dramatically improve it's defence.
The List - K.Love, Keno, Zippy's tennis angels, LA Lakers, Noah, Boozer, Lucy's horse tips, Colts, Lucy, Kevin Proctor, Dr Zaius, TR, Tinfoil hatted Gangers & Woody, anyone in Raiders HQ who can point to QBN on a map....

Matt wrote:
July 18, 2018, 3:49 pm
Edrick Lee 5. Jordan Rapana
Prepare the cannon!

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Re: Best fit for Bateman

Post by greeneyed » September 11, 2018, 10:58 am

Of the players available, either

1. Rapana 6. Wighton 7. Sezer 9. Hodgson or
2. Cotric 6. Wighton 7. Sezer 9. Hodgson

are probably the best options.

Pretty clearly the state of the club's salary cap is such that a first grade half is unaffordable, even if one were available (we missed that merry go round last year).
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Re: Best fit for Bateman

Post by kiwi raider » September 11, 2018, 11:42 am

greeneyed wrote:
September 11, 2018, 10:58 am
Of the players available, either

1. Rapana 6. Wighton 7. Sezer 9. Hodgson or
2. Cotric 6. Wighton 7. Sezer 9. Hodgson

are probably the best options.

Pretty clearly the state of the club's salary cap is such that a first grade half is unaffordable, even if one were available (we missed that merry go round last year).
I like option 1.
Imo Cotrics greatest strength is power(particularly upper body), if we train him up as a fullback to cover the metres they are required to these days then he'll lean right up and therefore lose a bit of his power/explosiveness and imo a bit of his effectiveness, if he continues to bulk up (naturally at his age) while playing fullback he'll struggle to keep up imo, His body shape just doesn't suit fullback, the likes of Slater, Trobjevic, Holmes, Tedesco, RTS, ponga etc are as lean as they come.
The only player that I can think of that has played fullback recently with any sort of success and a build like Cotric would be Greg Inglis and he's been far more effective since moving back to the centres, I'd also wager that cotric will be even bigger than GI ever was in 3/4 years

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Re: Best fit for Bateman

Post by Bennyinthewest » September 11, 2018, 2:23 pm

I’m always blown away that more people don’t see the potential of rapana at fullback, his support play alone would be immense. I’ve seen enough of his passing to say he can match Jack as most of his try assists 3 v 2, he gets confused when there is more numbers


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Re: Best fit for Bateman

Post by Green eyed Mick » September 11, 2018, 5:35 pm

I'd like to see Wighton in the halves but I don't think Williams is that bad an option.

It's in the middle where we need to improve the most and I think that is where Bateman will find himself.

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Re: Best fit for Bateman

Post by Pigman » September 11, 2018, 7:00 pm

Trouble with Williams is he doesnt solve the problems Austin gave us. He's more of the same. He cant tackle at an NRL level.
Until he can, he shouldnt be viewed as a start.

regarding the options GE offered up, i tend to agree those are our two best options and as far as which we should go with, firstly id probably ask if them if they want to play fullback, it may be that one of them does and other doesnt. But if they are both willing, i'd give both Raps and Cotric equal time in the role in pre season and simply pick the best guy.

The better option of course would be to buy a new fullback/five eighth and roll that way, but that doesnt seem to be on the cards
The List - K.Love, Keno, Zippy's tennis angels, LA Lakers, Noah, Boozer, Lucy's horse tips, Colts, Lucy, Kevin Proctor, Dr Zaius, TR, Tinfoil hatted Gangers & Woody, anyone in Raiders HQ who can point to QBN on a map....

Matt wrote:
July 18, 2018, 3:49 pm
Edrick Lee 5. Jordan Rapana
Prepare the cannon!

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Re: Best fit for Bateman

Post by edwahu » September 11, 2018, 7:05 pm

I'm willing to see if switching to a more mobile pack helps solve some of the problems with Williams getting isolated in defense. I don't expect him to ever be a good defender but it could be manageable.

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Re: Best fit for Bateman

Post by Pigman » September 11, 2018, 7:21 pm

You shouldnt need to solve a problem on that level
Why not just have a more mobile pack without needing them to cover a half who cant be trusted?

It would be one thing to say this is what we have to do in order to score points... but that's not the case. We've got virtually nothing our of our halves for 3 years now and are the highest scoring team over that period, comfortably. We can score 20+ points with Wighton-Sezer. That's enough to compete with the big boys if you're a competent defensive team, which history tells us is not possible with Sam Williams
The List - K.Love, Keno, Zippy's tennis angels, LA Lakers, Noah, Boozer, Lucy's horse tips, Colts, Lucy, Kevin Proctor, Dr Zaius, TR, Tinfoil hatted Gangers & Woody, anyone in Raiders HQ who can point to QBN on a map....

Matt wrote:
July 18, 2018, 3:49 pm
Edrick Lee 5. Jordan Rapana
Prepare the cannon!

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Re: Best fit for Bateman

Post by Green eyed Mick » September 11, 2018, 7:42 pm

A lot of sides address the problem of poor defensive halves with above average defensive back rowers.

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Re: Best fit for Bateman

Post by Pigman » September 11, 2018, 8:23 pm

A lot of sides need to protect halves because they are reliant on those halves for them to score enough points to win reliably
We aren't.

We're quite uniquely built in that respect
The List - K.Love, Keno, Zippy's tennis angels, LA Lakers, Noah, Boozer, Lucy's horse tips, Colts, Lucy, Kevin Proctor, Dr Zaius, TR, Tinfoil hatted Gangers & Woody, anyone in Raiders HQ who can point to QBN on a map....

Matt wrote:
July 18, 2018, 3:49 pm
Edrick Lee 5. Jordan Rapana
Prepare the cannon!

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Re: Best fit for Bateman

Post by Beejay » September 11, 2018, 9:49 pm

The Pig is right in that we don’t require a creative half, however we need a half to take control when game is on line. Sezer has never done that for us in 3 years except for that one time. Sams kicked to the corner and snapped field goals a few times in his short time in FG.
Real dilemma that one. Need Sezer to figure it out.

Put me down for Rapana at 1. He’s the best fullback in our squad including Wighton IMO
Shame to break up the most dynamic pairing the NRL, but must be done

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Re: Best fit for Bateman

Post by Coastalraider » September 12, 2018, 8:21 am

Beejay wrote:
September 11, 2018, 9:49 pm
The Pig is right in that we don’t require a creative half, however we need a half to take control when game is on line. Sezer has never done that for us in 3 years except for that one time. Sams kicked to the corner and snapped field goals a few times in his short time in FG.
Real dilemma that one. Need Sezer to figure it out.

Put me down for Rapana at 1. He’s the best fullback in our squad including Wighton IMO
Shame to break up the most dynamic pairing the NRL, but must be done
We need a controlling half that can defend, not necessarily a creative one.

Blake Green springs to mind.

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Re: Best fit for Bateman

Post by Sid » September 12, 2018, 10:04 am

I did have Williams in my best spine 2019, but Pigman has bought up some very good points.
Really need to sort out the defence, the points are flowing.
There are pro's and cons with each spine combination

1. Cotric, 6. Wighton
(lack of ball playing from Cotric means teams will be able to shut down attack easier, but best defensive option?)

1. Rapana 6. Wighton
(best possible players go into the spine, disrupting the Leipana combination and metres out of own half)

1. Wighton 7. Williams
(most experience in these positions already, stronger outside backs, a more natural half, worst defensive combination)

that's a basic version
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Re: Best fit for Bateman

Post by edwahu » September 12, 2018, 10:20 am

Williams is pretty productive offensively, and changing the spine by moving Wighton to 6 and Rapana or Cotric to fullback is a pretty significant change. We will also have a lighter pack which potentially means less time for Hodgo, so I think it's not a sure thing that the points keep flowing to the same extent. We may end up reliant on Leipana again.

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Re: Best fit for Bateman

Post by dubby » September 12, 2018, 11:37 am

Cotric felt the burden of playing fullback. He was gassed. He trains to play a modern day w wingers game: power, speed developed for solid kick returns, strong dummy half runs.
A fullback requires a more anaerobic level of fitness.

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Re: Best fit for Bateman

Post by BJ » September 12, 2018, 4:59 pm

Green eyed Mick wrote:A lot of sides address the problem of poor defensive halves with above average defensive back rowers.
The modern attacking structures have made this defensive tactic less effective than previously. Teams (including us) can now send traffic left, at, or right of the weak defender (with a decoy for the stronger defender).

The days of putting Carroll next to Lockyer are pretty much over. I keep waiting for the season when Sam Williams stops becoming flat footed in defence. Hopefully it’s next season.

I don’t expect him to become a great defender, just a fair bit better than he is.

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Re: Best fit for Bateman

Post by Matt » September 12, 2018, 7:32 pm

BJ wrote:
September 12, 2018, 4:59 pm
Green eyed Mick wrote:A lot of sides address the problem of poor defensive halves with above average defensive back rowers.
The modern attacking structures have made this defensive tactic less effective than previously. Teams (including us) can now send traffic left, at, or right of the weak defender (with a decoy for the stronger defender).

The days of putting Carroll next to Lockyer are pretty much over. I keep waiting for the season when Sam Williams stops becoming flat footed in defence. Hopefully it’s next season.

I don’t expect him to become a great defender, just a fair bit better than he is.
TBF, Williams was better this yr than previously. Its on an upward trend, but its still marginal.

The difference between him and Austin this yr, was Sammy held his line, and tried to play the structure. Austin did his own thing and shot out of the line.

He is 2nd best half we have.
I think id stick with him.
But i also agree with strengthening the line. So if a better option was there great.

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