Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

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Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by greeneyed » May 21, 2018, 5:24 pm

Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

A new stadium with a roof in Civic could have the flexibility to host AFL and international cricket as part of an evolving plan to transform the city centre with a sports venue, convention centre and hotel. Canberra Airport chief executive Stephen Byron has backed the vision to reinvigorate the city landscape to help sell the capital to domestic and international travellers.

Read more: https://www.canberratimes.com.au/sport/ ... 4zg2y.html
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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by -PJ- » May 21, 2018, 5:26 pm

I'm more concerned about our footy team and where we'll be in 2-3yrs.
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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by greeneyed » May 21, 2018, 5:26 pm

Not building a rectangular stadium would be the height of stupidity. Have people learned nothing from Stadium Australia?

Not only that, an even bigger stadium doesn't fit in the space, without being built over Parkes Way and that will be very expensive.
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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by BJ » May 21, 2018, 5:28 pm

As I mentioned in an earlier post. These mixed purpose stadiums have been a proven disaster across the world and in many sports. There is a great 99% podcast that covers some of the issues.

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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by Timbo » May 21, 2018, 5:33 pm

This is Barr and his love of AFL.

Manuka is fine for the oval field content Canberra receives. The city is a an extremely long shot of ever having an AFL team, and I wouldn’t be surprised if
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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by CJ42 » May 21, 2018, 6:30 pm

Considering we are close to getting an A-league side, they’d be absolutely **** stupid to build an oval for a new stadium... we would have our own team for three codes and building a stadium to accomodate sports we don’t regularly get here... idiotic. Andrew Barr government is absolutely cooked.


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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by greeneyed » May 21, 2018, 7:28 pm

Who says Canberra is close to getting an A League team? I love that name btw... "A" League!
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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by BigPapa » May 21, 2018, 7:30 pm

If only this **** Barr would move on or retire we maybe able to get the ball rolling.

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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by Green eyed Mick » May 21, 2018, 7:57 pm

If we don't get an 'A' League side, a rectangular stadium and upgrades to Manuka will be a tough sell. Especially, with the way the Brumbies and Raiders are performing of late.

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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by raiderskater » May 21, 2018, 8:08 pm

CJ42 wrote:
May 21, 2018, 6:30 pm
Considering we are close to getting an A-league side
:roflmao :roflmao :roflmao :roflmao

Yeah, sure.

This is a pretty dumb idea.
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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by Pigman » May 21, 2018, 9:35 pm

Seems like a reasonable thing to me, the Raiders dont bring in enough fans to merit a purpose built stadium

if the cost of an indoor, central stadium is that it's able to host the GWS for their 3 games a year and some cricket as well as the Raiders and Brumbies, sounds good to me

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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by Timbo » May 21, 2018, 9:54 pm

But it’ll be **** for watching rectangle field sports, they always are. So for the sake of 3 AFL matches and the odd cricket match, the Brumbies and us have to suffer through 22 horribly compromised matches a year?

Not to mention, it’ll mean all the money spent on Manuka getting lights and improved facilities over the last five years was a complete waste.
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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by Schifty » May 21, 2018, 10:08 pm

Manuka will never get upgraded as much as it should because all those stuck up residents groups that live in Manuka complain about the lights being on 3 times a year.. Apparently it might ruin their leather bound books if it gets exposed to too much lighting.

If you can make a stadium where seats actually retract in far enough it can work. Et

Also got to look at it as a possible to host other events that aren't just sport.

BTW we are never getting an A-League side. By the time it is built you'd imagine Big Bash would be ready for a second set of expansion.

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Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by Fuifui Bradbrad » May 21, 2018, 10:24 pm

Yeah I could swear I’ve seen a round fielded stadium with adjustable seating to convert it to a square field?

I’m sure it’s not impossible. If Qudos can back up from Bull Riding one week, to Ice Hockey the next, surely they can build a stadium that can be adjusted between AFL/Cricket and NRL/Union?

On A League, I’m not so sure. I’m on the poso side of the fence for Canberra. I think the next 2 teams for expansion consideration should be Canberra and Wollongong, but I’m biased. I was a Wolves fan in the NSL days, and the Raiders connection

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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by gergreg » May 21, 2018, 10:30 pm

I'm not so sure that any top level cricket would be played anywhere but Manuka oval in Canberra. And I'm not confident that GWS will hang around in the Canberra landscape if and when their crowds increase.
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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by greeneyed » May 22, 2018, 9:05 am

Fuifui Bradbrad wrote:
May 21, 2018, 10:24 pm
Yeah I could swear I’ve seen a round fielded stadium with adjustable seating to convert it to a square field?

I’m sure it’s not impossible. If Qudos can back up from Bull Riding one week, to Ice Hockey the next, surely they can build a stadium that can be adjusted between AFL/Cricket and NRL/Union?

On A League, I’m not so sure. I’m on the poso side of the fence for Canberra. I think the next 2 teams for expansion consideration should be Canberra and Wollongong, but I’m biased. I was a Wolves fan in the NSL days, and the Raiders connection
That can be done, of course. You can adjust the size of the concourse. But to do it, the grandstands must be a long way from the sidelines. There’s no getting around that. And that’s why they never provide a good viewing experience for games played on rectangular fields. It’s why everyone hates the Olympic Stadium. It’s why everyone loves Lang Park. It’d be a disaster if we built a new stadium that gives a worse viewing experience than we’ve got at Bruce.

Multi purpose stadiums only work as community grounds, like Gungahlin and Greenway. That’s because you can have one straight side, build the one grandstand along it... and place the rectangular field bedside the straight fence... while still accommodating an oval.
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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by Pigman » May 22, 2018, 9:35 am

Timbo wrote:
May 21, 2018, 9:54 pm
But it’ll be **** for watching rectangle field sports, they always are. So for the sake of 3 AFL matches and the odd cricket match, the Brumbies and us have to suffer through 22 horribly compromised matches a year?

Not to mention, it’ll mean all the money spent on Manuka getting lights and improved facilities over the last five years was a complete waste.
The manuka project was a waste of money the moment it was signed off, the area simply cant cope with even 5000 people getting in there. No point standing on ceremony on that, money wasted cant be saved now.

Fact is we're going to need one of three things to get a new stadium:

- Australia wins a WC bid
- The Raiders and Brumbies start selling out Bruce or close to + an a-league side admitted
- We accept that any new stadium in Civic is going to have to be an all purpose built deal.

I dont think there is any chances of a new SOTA rectangular stadium for the Brumbies and Raiders, and frankly given the crowds, that seems an entirely appropriate decision
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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by BJ » May 22, 2018, 10:17 am

Why build a multipurpose multi sport stadium that is in the oval configuration for less than 20% of its use and less than 20% of total annual attendance. Stupid stupid idea.

The US have moved away from multipurpose stadiums because they have proven to be a waste of money and provide a bad viewing experience for attendees. The UK don’t build Football/ Cricket stadiums because it would reduce the experience for soccer fans.

It’s trying to build a combo Bus / Car, that ultimately works for no one.

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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by Timbo » May 22, 2018, 12:46 pm

The 'golden era' of the multi-purpose stadiums in the states was the 60s and 70s - no fewer than 17 American and Canadian cities had stadiums that were shared by both baseball and football teams, and several other cities built a modular stadium in the hopes of luring either of a football or baseball team.

The same argument played out over and over again 'if we build it properly, it'll be a great result for all concerned'. The problem is, there is no way to build it properly without a large number of the seats in the stadium being bad for one sport or the other. As of right now, of all the cities that built 'multi purpose' stadiums, only ONE (Oakland - and the football team is about to move out of that one) is still being used for both sports. Every other city went back to having sports-specific stadiums.

Even if we look at the ones in Australia, like Etihad and ANZ, it still leaves a large number of crappy seats. It's usually done by having a fixed upper tier, and a movable lower one, but we aren't talking about a 50 or 100k seat stadium - we're talking 25. How many seats will we lose when it slides in or out? Will we just have a top tier with a massive drop down to the sidelines?
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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by BJ » May 22, 2018, 1:12 pm

Timbo wrote:The 'golden era' of the multi-purpose stadiums in the states was the 60s and 70s - no fewer than 17 American and Canadian cities had stadiums that were shared by both baseball and football teams, and several other cities built a modular stadium in the hopes of luring either of a football or baseball team.

The same argument played out over and over again 'if we build it properly, it'll be a great result for all concerned'. The problem is, there is no way to build it properly without a large number of the seats in the stadium being bad for one sport or the other. As of right now, of all the cities that built 'multi purpose' stadiums, only ONE (Oakland - and the football team is about to move out of that one) is still being used for both sports. Every other city went back to having sports-specific stadiums.

Even if we look at the ones in Australia, like Etihad and ANZ, it still leaves a large number of crappy seats. It's usually done by having a fixed upper tier, and a movable lower one, but we aren't talking about a 50 or 100k seat stadium - we're talking 25. How many seats will we lose when it slides in or out? Will we just have a top tier with a massive drop down to the sidelines?
Absolutely spot on Timbo. I have to wonder how uninformed the ACT government and Planning experts are when it comes to stadium design.

Personally I think it’s a setup to ensure the Government can look like their progressing but actually ignore the issue for another election term.

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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by Dr Zaius » May 27, 2018, 9:27 am

I've been opposed to a multi-purpose venue, but the Pig says, it might be the only way to get the job done.

The only real experience with a multi-purpose stadium in Australia as far as I can tell is the Olympic Stadium, which was designed with athletics in mind.

The best chance of success would be to design the stadium for a rectangular viewing audience and then make it adaptable for an oval game, rather than vice versa. The first part in doing that would be making the oval as small as possible. The SCG is, as far as I know, the smallest oval used in AFL and cricket. It is 155 x 136m. Melbourne Rectangular Stadium is 136 x 82m and the SFS is currently 140 x 79m.

The image is an overlap of those approximate dimensions. The ends would be easy enough to sort out, there is only 8m difference at either end. The retractable lower stand system that they use at Stadium Australia would work just fine for that. The sides are more of a problem, being about 26m either side (the approx width of the lower tier at SFS/Lang Park). I'm sure though with some clever architecture it could be overcome. Perhaps putting the concourse with amenities below ground level, and reserving the area where the concourse would otherwise be at ground level as a space to retreat the stand into in oval mode. That space could then potentially be used for other purposes in rectangular mode (jumping castles, promos), or for exhibitions. I'm no engineer, perhaps its not possible The stand themselves would need to be fairly light weight relative to conventional stadium,and the cost may become prohibitive, but if done well it could be a ground breaking world class stadium, but only if priority is given to the rectangular viewing experience.

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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by Dr Zaius » May 27, 2018, 9:40 am

If the plan was to have no seating at one end to accomodate Parkes Way, such as in the photo in the link in the first post:

Image

It would look like this and have an 18m difference at the end.

Image

Maintaining the desired capacity with no seating at one end (a bit like the stadium in Dunedin) wouldn't be such a bad idea. It would allow for increasing capacity for major sporting events such as the Football World Cup, by closing off Parkes Way and building temporary seating over it.
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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by greeneyed » May 27, 2018, 11:24 am

Dr Zaius wrote:
May 27, 2018, 9:27 am
I'm sure though with some clever architecture it could be overcome.
No architect in the world is clever enough... because it’s not physically possible to get the grandstands close to the sideline of the rectangular field in a multi purpose venue. You can mess around with retractable concourses etc, but the fundamental problem is the grandstands can’t be placed where they need to be for games played on rectangular fields.

The only teams based in Canberra play on rectangular fields. The ones that visit should be the ones that need to accept compromise.
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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by greeneyed » May 27, 2018, 11:27 am

Dr Zaius wrote:
May 27, 2018, 9:40 am
If the plan was to have no seating at one end to accomodate Parkes Way, such as in the photo in the link in the first post:

Image

It would look like this and have an 18m difference at the end.

Image

Maintaining the desired capacity with no seating at one end (a bit like the stadium in Dunedin) wouldn't be such a bad idea. It would allow for increasing capacity for major sporting events such as the Football World Cup, by closing off Parkes Way and building temporary seating over it.
They would likely have to build over the top of Parkes Way if it were to be a multi purpose venue that accommodates an Oval, making Parkes Way a tunnel. They’d probably like to do that, to link the city to the lake. But it’d cost a bomb.
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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by Dr Zaius » May 27, 2018, 12:34 pm

The grand stands don't need to be on the sideline GE. The Grandstands are at least 26m back at suncorp and sfs. If someone is clever enough they could come up with something, possibly a full retreat of the lower section which remains unused in oval mode. It would reduce capacity for that mode, but that mode would need a lower capacity anyway.
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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by Leebola » May 27, 2018, 2:17 pm

Get the mob that built Forsyth-Barr in Dunedin, make it a rectangle, and make it happen. Upgrade Manuka to a 30,000 seater when the chops are available, or when the next avaricious developer with a proposal comes along. To hell with the fogeys in the surrounding area. You're living in a growing city of near on half a million people.

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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by BJ » May 27, 2018, 2:36 pm

Dr Zaius wrote:The grand stands don't need to be on the sideline GE. The Grandstands are at least 26m back at Lang Park and sfs. If someone is clever enough they could come up with something, possibly a full retreat of the lower section which remains unused in oval mode. It would reduce capacity for that mode, but that mode would need a lower capacity anyway.

Where do you get the design that the grandstands are 26m back at Lang park? A huge proportion of the capacity is within 26m of the sidelines. It’s a great tight stadium.

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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by greeneyed » May 27, 2018, 2:40 pm

Dr Zaius wrote:The grand stands don't need to be on the sideline GE. The Grandstands are at least 26m back at Lang Park and sfs. If someone is clever enough they could come up with something, possibly a full retreat of the lower section which remains unused in oval mode. It would reduce capacity for that mode, but that mode would need a lower capacity anyway.
But it has been repeatedly shown that they DO need to be. People that view either of the rugby codes or soccer hate multi purpose venues... and don’t go to the grounds. They watch on TV instead. The aim of a new stadium is to get more people through the gates. It is doomed to be complete white elephant if the new stadium in Canberra is multi purpose. It would be a complete waste. I’d rather have no new stadium than a multi purpose ground. The existing stadium would be superior as a viewing experience.


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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by greeneyed » May 27, 2018, 2:42 pm

Leebola wrote:Get the mob that built Forsyth-Barr in Dunedin, make it a rectangle, and make it happen. Upgrade Manuka to a 30,000 seater when the chops are available, or when the next avaricious developer with a proposal comes along. To hell with the fogeys in the surrounding area. You're living in a growing city of near on half a million people.
Better still, leave Manuka just as it is. It’s more than adequate for a handful of AFL and cricket matches.


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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by Schifty » May 27, 2018, 2:49 pm

Top of Mal stand is hardly close to action.. Would grandstands at a new mute purpose venue really be much further from the action than they currently are now..

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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by Green eyed Mick » May 27, 2018, 2:55 pm

Build a new rectangular stadium in the city and retrofit Bruce back into an oval for the AFL and Cricket.

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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by Dr Zaius » May 27, 2018, 2:55 pm

BJ wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote:The grand stands don't need to be on the sideline GE. The Grandstands are at least 26m back at Lang Park and sfs. If someone is clever enough they could come up with something, possibly a full retreat of the lower section which remains unused in oval mode. It would reduce capacity for that mode, but that mode would need a lower capacity anyway.

Where do you get the design that the grandstands are 26m back at Lang park? A huge proportion of the capacity is within 26m of the sidelines. It’s a great tight stadium.
The concourse is close to the action, but the concourse is at least 26m deep, hence the grandstand is at least 26m back...
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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by Dr Zaius » May 27, 2018, 2:57 pm

greeneyed wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote:The grand stands don't need to be on the sideline GE. The Grandstands are at least 26m back at Lang Park and sfs. If someone is clever enough they could come up with something, possibly a full retreat of the lower section which remains unused in oval mode. It would reduce capacity for that mode, but that mode would need a lower capacity anyway.
But it has been repeatedly shown that they DO need to be. People that view either of the rugby codes or soccer hate multi purpose venues... and don’t go to the grounds. They watch on TV instead. The aim of a new stadium is to get more people through the gates. It is doomed to be complete white elephant if the new stadium in Canberra is multi purpose. It would be a complete waste. I’d rather have no new stadium than a multi purpose ground. The existing stadium would be superior as a viewing experience.


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Name me one rectangular stadium in Australia where the grandstand (not concourse) is within 20m of the sideline.
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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by greeneyed » May 27, 2018, 3:07 pm

Dr Zaius wrote:
May 27, 2018, 2:57 pm
greeneyed wrote:
Dr Zaius wrote:The grand stands don't need to be on the sideline GE. The Grandstands are at least 26m back at Lang Park and sfs. If someone is clever enough they could come up with something, possibly a full retreat of the lower section which remains unused in oval mode. It would reduce capacity for that mode, but that mode would need a lower capacity anyway.
But it has been repeatedly shown that they DO need to be. People that view either of the rugby codes or soccer hate multi purpose venues... and don’t go to the grounds. They watch on TV instead. The aim of a new stadium is to get more people through the gates. It is doomed to be complete white elephant if the new stadium in Canberra is multi purpose. It would be a complete waste. I’d rather have no new stadium than a multi purpose ground. The existing stadium would be superior as a viewing experience.


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Name me one rectangular stadium in Australia where the grandstand (not concourse) is within 20m of the sideline.
Name me one multi purpose stadium which works for games played on rectangular fields.
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Re: Grounds for concern: Could 'super stadium' be on cards for Canberra?

Post by Dr Zaius » May 27, 2018, 3:14 pm

Looking on Google maps, the Gregan Larkham stand is at least 33m away from the sideline, probably 5m more, and the Meninga stand is at least 30m away, probably 5m more.
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