The Greenhouse

New thread required - see off topic thread for reason why.

I see this morning the man's wife has been charged with accessory as she was aware of said plans and even drive him to potential targets. Perhaps she didn't take him seriously or was trying to talk him out of it. There's a kid implicated in this now.

Some more information has come to light from those from the club, including both his sexuality and his motives for the attack. That is:

- some are saying he was definitely gay from the dealings with him in the club; and
- he was heard as saying, during the attack, that he wants the U.S. to get out of the Middle East and he was also heard praising a noted martr (the name and particular crime of which I missed).

Hackers hijack Isis Twitter accounts with rainbow flags, and links to gay sites

http://europe.newsweek.com/isis-twitter ... 0300?rm=eu

Btw the speaker at the Orlando mosque earlier this year I mentioned that spoke about death to gays is currently in Australia speaking, the government is supposedly reviewing his visa.

Manbush wrote:Btw the speaker at the Orlando mosque earlier this year I mentioned that spoke about death to gays is currently in Australia speaking, the government is supposedly reviewing his visa.

Oh, he is? I thought I heard yesterday that he fled the country the night before last. Must have been another speaker who was also here preaching hate.

Raider 85 wrote:

Manbush wrote:Btw the speaker at the Orlando mosque earlier this year I mentioned that spoke about death to gays is currently in Australia speaking, the government is supposedly reviewing his visa.

Oh, he is? I thought I heard yesterday that he fled the country the night before last. Must have been another speaker who was also here preaching hate.

Ah he might have fled, I saw an article from 2 days ago so maybe he thought he'd go before kicked out.

His wife might be facing charges

https://news.vice.com/article/omar-mate ... vicenewsfb

Yeah, I incorrectly said in my OP that she had already been charged. I must have heard that she could be facing charges.

Would you believe I'm seeing people defend her, because he had abused her she had no choice

Manbush wrote:Would you believe I'm seeing people defend her, because he had abused her she had no choice

How are you in a better position to pass judgement on her actions?

Green eyed Mick wrote:

Manbush wrote:Would you believe I'm seeing people defend her, because he had abused her she had no choice

How are you in a better position to pass judgement on her actions?

Are you saying being abused by your husband is an excuse for being an accessory to mass murder? No matter what if she knew what he was going to do nothing excuses not reporting it and the blood of all those lives are also on her hands.

So a woman who has been physically abused by a bloke who turns out to be a murderer is likely to be locked up because she didn't take ALL his threats seriously. I wonder how many times during his abusive episodes he threatened to kill her, and possible others.
If some guy who you know gets his kicks belting up women boasted to you that he was going, at some stage,to murder a huge number of complete strangers mostly male, would you believe him sufficiently to involve the notoriously officious US police?
Have you not been threatened with death by some dropkick? Did you then hightail it to the nearest police station?

Reports are she was with him when he purchased the bullets and took him to survey the club, if both of those are true they're obviously more than just idle threats, be interesting to know if she was aware of all the jihadist searches he had been doing online.

Manbush wrote:

Green eyed Mick wrote:

Manbush wrote:Would you believe I'm seeing people defend her, because he had abused her she had no choice

How are you in a better position to pass judgement on her actions?

Are you saying being abused by your husband is an excuse for being an accessory to mass murder? No matter what if she knew what he was going to do nothing excuses not reporting it and the blood of all those lives are also on her hands.

You are criticising people for passing judgement while you yourself are passing judgment with the same incomplete set of facts.

Surely the logical, intelligent thing to do is to wait until the facts have been established before going on retardbook to defend or condemn anyone.

I'm acknowledging that if it's true she's guilty, that implies if its not then she isn't. The people I am criticising for defending her was on the basis of it being true as well simply because she had been abused.

Manbush wrote:I'm acknowledging that if it's true she's guilty, that implies if its not then she isn't. The people I am criticising for defending her was on the basis of it being true as well simply because she had been abused.

It seems like you are arguing that it doesn't matter if she was abused or not?

Of course it matters if a woman is abused but if she's guilty of being an accessory to mass murder it's no defense,

Hypothetically speaking as its still unknown if this claim is legitimate. But assume it is - The threat of further abuse if she doesn't play ball with his demands isn't an defence for her actions?

One of two scenarios here:
She thinks he's not serious about the massacre, there for is going to be home by sun up to give her a thrashing for disobeying him

Or she thinks he is serious and is obeying the commands of a man willing to kill 50 people because he's messed up about his sexuality

Either way, that seems like a no win situation for her. Victims of domestic violence can tell you the psychological impact abuse can have

I've been thinking a bit about this this week since hearing she may have had forewarning of said attack. Like you, I don't see a win for her either. She really was screwed every which way.

That said, 50 innocent people here have been murdered. That's the reality. And if one were to have had forewarning of such an atrocity being committed, in some capacity the authorities should have been made aware of it.

Raider 85 wrote:
That said, 50 innocent people here have been murdered. That's the reality. And if one were to have had forewarning of such an atrocity being committed, in some capacity the authorities should have been made aware of it.

I agree
But I also concede that's a hellova lot easier to say as someone who isn't the hypothetical abuse victim
I've known abuse victims. Spoken to them at length about their experiences... Living in fear 24/7 is a heavy cross to bear

Pigman wrote:

Raider 85 wrote:
That said, 50 innocent people here have been murdered. That's the reality. And if one were to have had forewarning of such an atrocity being committed, in some capacity the authorities should have been made aware of it.

I agree
But I also concede that's a hellova lot easier to say as someone who isn't the hypothetical abuse victim
I've known abuse victims. Spoken to them at length about their experiences... Living in fear 24/7 is a heavy cross to bear

I hope you're not misconstruing me here. I'm certainly not presuming to understand the difficulties she, or anyone else in a similar position, have experienced.

It's just that 50 innocent people have been murdered and it seems that one person may have been in a position to mitigate the risk of it happening.

It's difficult in the extreme this discussion.

Na I'm understanding what you're saying. And again you're not wrong.
I guess I'm just saying if she was indeed the victim of abuse, to me she is just another victim here, not an accomplice IMO

But it's a very difficult and delicate discussion if what's reported about the abuse and her knowledge is true

Pigman wrote:Na I'm understanding what you're saying. And again you're wrong.
I guess I'm just saying if she was indeed the victim of abuse, to me she is just another victim here, not an accomplice IMO

But it's a very difficult and delicate discussion if what's reported about the abuse and her knowledge is true

I don't disagree she is and has been a victim (if what's reported is true), but is there not even one little bone in your body that says to you "ah, gee, perhaps she could have had a crack at advising the authorities before seeking shelter / support / a new life followed by having a hitman cut his chop off?"

People in abusive relationships can be too scared to call their parents for fear of their own life.
Let alone the authorities

Ideally, and hypothetically, yes she should have done that. But again, easy for me to say when I don't know what it's like to live in an abusive relationship

Yeah, look, this is slippery. I guess it's just my heart is first and foremost with the dead and their families as they had absolutely zero say in the matter.

We'll have to agree to disagree (before I use war criminal examples and jump the shark), for mine putting your own safety above so many others is indefensible and if true their blood is on her hands.

Ps. NBC reports she supposedly tried to talk him out of it so she must've taken it seriously.

Manbush wrote:Of course it matters if a woman is abused but if she's guilty of being an accessory to mass murder it's no defense,

Whilst battered wife syndrome isn't technically a defence it has been used successfully to argue diminished responsibility and duress. It has even been used successfully to argue temporary insanity.

Manbush wrote:We'll have to agree to disagree (before I use war criminal examples and jump the shark), for mine putting your own safety above so many others is indefensible and if true their blood is on her hands.

Ps. NBC reports she supposedly tried to talk him out of it so she must've taken it seriously.

You're putting yourself above them if you're certain they're going to do it.

There's a lot of variables here, a judgement either way without more information or a clear statement of assumptions is misguided.

The situation with the wife is just horrendous, and it's hard to make too much judgment without the full story.. Obviously the main issue is who in the hell he was allowed to get that sort of weapon..

This article is about the horrible political murder of a UK MP yesterday, but I think a lot of it can be apply to both America and here.


http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/a-day-of-infamy/

If you cbf reading the whole thing, just take this from it.

But, still. Look. When you encourage rage you cannot then feign surprise when people become enraged. You cannot turn around and say, ‘Mate, you weren’t supposed to take it so seriously. It’s just a game, just a ploy, a strategy for winning votes.’

FBI cast doubts over him being gay

http://www.lgbtqnation.com/2016/06/fbi- ... retly-gay/

I know I'm late to the party here, but I've heard of victims of abuse doing all sorts of things, even helping their partner sexually abuse minors.

The fact of the matter is that these victims are victims too and are terrified by their torturer, they're in no position mentally to go to the authorities.

You blokes are deadset having a larf if you think she was in any way capable of reporting her husband.

The most ridiculous thing I've heard is the people saying the club goers should have all been carrying guns as well.

Yep, a bunch of people who have been drinking pulling out guns in a dark room.....

The most ridiculous thing ive read is that her being abused by her partner is no excuse for not stopping him. The psychological effects of domestic violence are something that i dont understand completely myself, but i am damn sure they are horrible. We'd all do well not to downplay them

Or how about a conspiracy that the victims were carried into the club

simo wrote:The most ridiculous thing ive read is that her being abused by her partner is no excuse for not stopping him. The psychological effects of domestic violence are something that i dont understand completely myself, but i am damn sure they are horrible. We'd all do well not to downplay them

Exactly simo. Exactly. I'm amazed by people's attitudes here to something they clearly don't understand.

Noones doubting or down playing they're horrible.