The Politics Thread 2024

[Dr Zaius]

So on very rare occasions biological men cheat and compete as women in sports?

You should ask me how much I care about that issue in regards to deciding elections in comparison to poverty, wealth inequality, sexism, racism, transphobia, homophobia, war and oppression.

Go on, ask me how much I care.

Clearly it doesn't rate as those issues do. It's absolutely absurd that person put it forward as one of her platform positions at the last federal election.

Intelligent people are allowed to be interested in many things. I mean, there are children that go hungry in the ACT, and the territory badly needs a new hospital, yet there is a whole thread discussing a new stadium and I'm fine with that. Why is this the only issue that is ridiculous to discuss in the face of all the world's woes? I'm interested in this because of my work and because I'm interested in sports science, and listen to Ross Tucker's podcast. He has to divise the IRBs trans policy and his discussion on how they arrived at their decision is very informative. They followed the science, and he has been shouted down as a transphobe by certain sections for it.

You don't have to care about it, but you don't need to scoffi at people who genuinely do. Dismissing it as a minor issue demeans the experience of the people it effects, who already feel threatened by the political climate. In 2022 when Lia Thomas went from being a mediocre male swimmer to dominating the women's events at the US college championships, Emma McKeon called it out. Other women swimmers then followed, previously afraid to speak up for fear of losing sponsorship or worse. They copped it on social media.

The reality is that this has been politicised by both ends of the spectrum. The right have weaponised it with some frankly bizarre claims. The left shouts down anyone that wants to discuss it as a transphobe (see pigmans earlier post). Both stifle what really should be a scientific debate, not a political one.

[Botman]

One sunny day does not make a summer, Doc

There are always going to isolated incidents in things such as this, but across this Olympics and para Olympics there are approximately 12,000 athletes competing and you’ve got one single case.

*insert Stephen a meme looking completely uninteresting and unconcerned*

This is low rent stuff and it’s certainly not the wave in which we keep being told is coming. 2 in 12,000, and I’d say the ratio of these isolated situations across world sports in general is substantially higher, is not something that warrants the attention and space it takes up. You won’t find a less consequential “issue” that effects such a small number of people get the amount of air time (for lack of a better word) as this issue.

And I’m not saying everyone who has interests in this area are transphobes. I’m sure you’re not but I am saying the reason it gets the air time it does, the reason it has become such a stupidly politicised thing is entirely because of RW culture wars ***** who are transphobic wanted to make it a thing.

This is a rapidly evolving area and sporting bodies are, as far as I can see, are handling this without much fuss in 99.99% of the time, and that 0.01% sucks and shouldn’t happen but they’re rare situations that really don’t merit the hot air given to them.

You mention Lia Thomas, she was not allowed to compete at the Olympics because she did not meet the criteria of male puberty being halted by age 12 or Tanner Stage 2. Great! Job well done.

I understand she competed at college level but anyone who follows any NCAA sports knows that organisation is a wild Wild West sort of deal, and the moment she asked to compete at any higher level she was told no. Should she be competing at college level against women? No. But again, isolated case, it's not as if the entire college women's swim scene is rife with dudes trying to beat girls in the pool, it's one single instance in a field of many thousands of swimmers across the country and ultimately where did it get her? Not to the Olympics, not to any degree of success that would entice someone to go down that path who is doing it for cynical reasons (such as sports glory).

So... im back to where i was... the Stephen A being completely uninterested and unconcerned and wondering why people have some much bandwidth to give to something i think is really just a total non event.

[The Nickman]

So on very rare occasions biological men cheat and compete as women in sports?

You should ask me how much I care about that issue in regards to deciding elections in comparison to poverty, wealth inequality, sexism, racism, transphobia, homophobia, war and oppression.

Go on, ask me how much I care.

Clearly it doesn't rate as those issues do. It's absolutely absurd that person put it forward as one of her platform positions at the last federal election.

Intelligent people are allowed to be interested in many things. I mean, there are children that go hungry in the ACT, and the territory badly needs a new hospital, yet there is a whole thread discussing a new stadium and I'm fine with that. Why is this the only issue that is ridiculous to discuss in the face of all the world's woes? I'm interested in this because of my work and because I'm interested in sports science, and listen to Ross Tucker's podcast. He has to divise the IRBs trans policy and his discussion on how they arrived at their decision is very informative. They followed the science, and he has been shouted down as a transphobe by certain sections for it.

You don't have to care about it, but you don't need to scoffi at people who genuinely do. Dismissing it as a minor issue demeans the experience of the people it effects, who already feel threatened by the political climate. In 2022 when Lia Thomas went from being a mediocre male swimmer to dominating the women's events at the US college championships, Emma McKeon called it out. Other women swimmers then followed, previously afraid to speak up for fear of losing sponsorship or worse. They copped it on social media.

The reality is that this has been politicised by both ends of the spectrum. The right have weaponised it with some frankly bizarre claims. The left shouts down anyone that wants to discuss it as a transphobe (see pigmans earlier post). Both stifle what really should be a scientific debate, not a political one.

Hang on a second... the whole reason we're having this discussion was because Billy "I'm not really a Trump supporter!" PNG Raider-Walker came steaming in here with the whole "think of the children"/"I'm glad I don't have a daughter" (duh, obviously he doesn't have kids) to which Botto rather calmly responded he DOES have children, both a boy and a girl, and this whole issue isn't even remotely on his list of things to be worried about the future about.

To which you've then responded that he SHOULD be concerned and that it's actually a bigger issue then we all think... so which is it?

I also think it rates low on the things to be outraged about list (as I mentioned), but fortunately, I won't be having kids, so I'm probably less inclined to be outraged about my daughter competing against a biological male or my son encountering dreaded tampons in his bathroom at school.

[Dr Zaius]

You both seem to believe that I think that this is some massive issue. I don't and it is not. I said that the court ruling may have broader implications, and it may. That doesn't equate to me saying that we should start cracking each other's skulls open and feasting on the goo inside.

As Pig points out, some of the sporting bodies are sorting their house out. FINA only acted upon it after the Lia Thomas debacle in 2022. IAAF only acted on it last year. Both organisations started acting when their athletes found the courage to speak up. Both organisations were hammered by pro-trans voices for their decisions. There are still organisations that include trans athletes in women's sport. The inclusion criteria for the women's category at the Olympics for example is if you have female on your passport. Thankfully the Olympics leave it to the governing body of the individual sports to decide, but if they have no policy, they default to passport criteria. To be clear, I have no issue with WIll Thomas living her best life as Lia Thomas. I do have an issue with her competing in a women's category.

I find the topic of transwomen in sport interesting. The science is interesting, the social effects are fascinating. I understand that others don't find it interesting, and that's fair enough. I don't generally go around berating people for showing an interest in a subject that I have no interest in. I find both of your strong responses to a "nothing topic" strange.

There is a lot of focus on the culture wars, and the right wing's involvement in them in this topic, but you continually overlook the left's role which I find far more damaging in this area. The response to the left to anyone that questions their ideology or doctrine in the trans space is to label them transphobic, dox them and threaten them. In my opinion, the right wing histrionics is in response to this. The effect is to shut down legitimate discussion of concerns. I am seeing this play out in my profession, with colleagues feeling that they can't speak up about increasing concerns of the harm caused by the medicalisation of gender dysphoric teens.

[Dr Zaius]

22/7/2024 - Biden steps down
Trump $1.50, Harris $3.40.

23/7/24 - 24 hours in
Trump $1.45, Harris $2.80

24/7/24 - 48 hours in
Trump $1.53, Harris $2.50

29/7/24 - A week in
Trump $1.57, Harris $2.30

5/8/24 - 2 weeks in
Trump $1.72, Harris $2.00

12/8/24 - 3 weeks in
Trump $2.00, Harris $1.80

19/8/24 - 4 weeks in
Trump $1.95, Harris $1.85
26/8/24 - 5 weeks in
Trump $1.97, Harris $1.97

A day late.
3/9/2025 - 6 weeks in
Trump $1.86, Harris $1.93

The Cheesel is back in front. Not sure what is driving that as Harris is ahead in 5 of the 7 or so swing states

[The Nickman]

22/7/2024 - Biden steps down
Trump $1.50, Harris $3.40.

23/7/24 - 24 hours in
Trump $1.45, Harris $2.80

24/7/24 - 48 hours in
Trump $1.53, Harris $2.50

29/7/24 - A week in
Trump $1.57, Harris $2.30

5/8/24 - 2 weeks in
Trump $1.72, Harris $2.00

12/8/24 - 3 weeks in
Trump $2.00, Harris $1.80

19/8/24 - 4 weeks in
Trump $1.95, Harris $1.85
26/8/24 - 5 weeks in
Trump $1.97, Harris $1.97

A day late.
3/9/2025 - 6 weeks in
Trump $1.86, Harris $1.93

The Cheesel is back in front. Not sure what is driving that as Harris is ahead in 5 of the 7 or so swing states

It's just odds, probably largely driven by weight of bets. At this stage that's showing absolutely nothing, except that it's a close race that Sportsbet can't figure out.

To put a bit of mathematical context in those odds, it's Trump at 51% and Harris at 49%, there's nothing in it.

[The Nickman]

You both seem to believe that I think that this is some massive issue. I don't and it is not. I said that the court ruling may have broader implications, and it may. That doesn't equate to me saying that we should start cracking each other's skulls open and feasting on the goo inside.

As Pig points out, some of the sporting bodies are sorting their house out. FINA only acted upon it after the Lia Thomas debacle in 2022. IAAF only acted on it last year. Both organisations started acting when their athletes found the courage to speak up. Both organisations were hammered by pro-trans voices for their decisions. There are still organisations that include trans athletes in women's sport. The inclusion criteria for the women's category at the Olympics for example is if you have female on your passport. Thankfully the Olympics leave it to the governing body of the individual sports to decide, but if they have no policy, they default to passport criteria. To be clear, I have no issue with WIll Thomas living her best life as Lia Thomas. I do have an issue with her competing in a women's category.

I find the topic of transwomen in sport interesting. The science is interesting, the social effects are fascinating. I understand that others don't find it interesting, and that's fair enough. I don't generally go around berating people for showing an interest in a subject that I have no interest in. I find both of your strong responses to a "nothing topic" strange.

There is a lot of focus on the culture wars, and the right wing's involvement in them in this topic, but you continually overlook the left's role which I find far more damaging in this area. The response to the left to anyone that questions their ideology or doctrine in the trans space is to label them transphobic, dox them and threaten them. In my opinion, the right wing histrionics is in response to this. The effect is to shut down legitimate discussion of concerns. I am seeing this play out in my profession, with colleagues feeling that they can't speak up about increasing concerns of the harm caused by the medicalisation of gender dysphoric teens.

Wait a second, Pigbotwhateverhisnameis was the one who said it wasn't on his radar as an issue and YOU are the one who came flying in to tell him why it's so important! This isn't us suggesting you think it's such a big deal, but you suggesting that yourself.

Otherwise you agree with Botpigwit, which makes me question why we're stuck in this loop in the first place.

Also, the length of your post suggests you're someone who does, indeed, think this is "a massive issue".

[Dr Zaius]

You both seem to believe that I think that this is some massive issue. I don't and it is not. I said that the court ruling may have broader implications, and it may. That doesn't equate to me saying that we should start cracking each other's skulls open and feasting on the goo inside.

As Pig points out, some of the sporting bodies are sorting their house out. FINA only acted upon it after the Lia Thomas debacle in 2022. IAAF only acted on it last year. Both organisations started acting when their athletes found the courage to speak up. Both organisations were hammered by pro-trans voices for their decisions. There are still organisations that include trans athletes in women's sport. The inclusion criteria for the women's category at the Olympics for example is if you have female on your passport. Thankfully the Olympics leave it to the governing body of the individual sports to decide, but if they have no policy, they default to passport criteria. To be clear, I have no issue with WIll Thomas living her best life as Lia Thomas. I do have an issue with her competing in a women's category.

I find the topic of transwomen in sport interesting. The science is interesting, the social effects are fascinating. I understand that others don't find it interesting, and that's fair enough. I don't generally go around berating people for showing an interest in a subject that I have no interest in. I find both of your strong responses to a "nothing topic" strange.

There is a lot of focus on the culture wars, and the right wing's involvement in them in this topic, but you continually overlook the left's role which I find far more damaging in this area. The response to the left to anyone that questions their ideology or doctrine in the trans space is to label them transphobic, dox them and threaten them. In my opinion, the right wing histrionics is in response to this. The effect is to shut down legitimate discussion of concerns. I am seeing this play out in my profession, with colleagues feeling that they can't speak up about increasing concerns of the harm caused by the medicalisation of gender dysphoric teens.

Wait a second, Pigbotwhateverhisnameis was the one who said it wasn't on his radar as an issue and YOU are the one who came flying in to tell him why it's so important! This isn't us suggesting you think it's such a big deal, but you suggesting that yourself.

Otherwise you agree with Botpigwit, which makes me question why we're stuck in this loop in the first place.

Also, the length of your post suggests you're someone who does, indeed, think this is "a massive issue".

Important or interesting? People write numerous page long posts on Raiders issues here. It's not important, but clearly they find it interesting. I'm not sure where I said it's a massive deal. You either have poor comprehension skills or are deliberately misrepresenting me. You probably need to go back and read my posts again.

In the grand scheme of things it's a blip. But it is important to some people, those that are effected by it (female athletes, trans people) and those with a role to play (sporting authorities, sports scientists, activists). If you reread the last paragraph of my last post, you may see that while most of the discussion I just find interesting, there is an aspect which is important to me, and you may understand there is something that I don't want to discuss on a public forum. I'd be happy to tell you about it next time I see you, though it appears that you are not interested. If you do bother to listen though, you may come to realise why it is important.

[Botman]

There is a lot of focus on the culture wars, and the right wing's involvement in them in this topic, but you continually overlook the left's role which I find far more damaging in this area. The response to the left to anyone that questions their ideology or doctrine in the trans space is to label them transphobic, dox them and threaten them. In my opinion, the right wing histrionics is in response to this. The effect is to shut down legitimate discussion of concerns.

The RW histrionics, as you labelled them was the genesis of trans rights being politicised.
Trans rights started to become something liberal politicians were pushing towards and naturally conservative politics rallied against it, particularly in america where that movement is rooted in the bible and God, and man and women, adam and eve, not adam and steve sort of stuff.
These people vehemently opposed pretty much any rights for LGBTI+ comminity on the back of their christian values, of which Trans is definitionally a part of.

This issue is not one of science and one of politics right now because the RW conservatives in America (which has an out sized influence on the greater RW, and honestly great politicial movements on all sides across the western world) made Trans rights a battle ground in which they weren't willing to give an inch, even on reasonable things.
The fear mongering about trans athletes dominating women's sports and "wont somebody please think of the children" sort of **** was present from day 1. It continues to be a button they push when ever one of these outlier situations comes up. And it seems we both agree they're outliers and not a big deal at all. So why all the airtime?

If the discourse on this isnt where you want it to be, that is a direct result of bible belt conservative christians and politicians deciding to make trans rights a politicial battle field. As for the bolded bit, from my experience seeing people comment on this issue, that is because the vast majority are exactly that - Transphobic. Doesnt mean they all are and some people with genuine intentions and interest in the science probably gets lost in the sauce on that, and that's a shame, but i'd rather the focus be placed on the oppressors and their actions, and not the oppressed. Or at least that's my view of how we got here.

I think its a complete and utter non factor and as per the original post from PNG, I could sit a pub with you for 8 hours and do nothing but say aloud the thoughts, questions and concerns i have about my kids and their future and trans athletics wouldnt be mentioned.

But i've already spent too much time on this, and mostly because i like you as a poster and want to give you the respect of a proper thought out response, but ill leave it there.

[gerg]

I think it is largely a non-factor or outlier now because you have a few athletes 'testing the water'. Lia Thomas as an example. If he had of been allowed to compete at the Olympics, like he was attempting to do then its quite possible the floodgates open and we see more of it.

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk

[Dr Zaius]

There is a lot of focus on the culture wars, and the right wing's involvement in them in this topic, but you continually overlook the left's role which I find far more damaging in this area. The response to the left to anyone that questions their ideology or doctrine in the trans space is to label them transphobic, dox them and threaten them. In my opinion, the right wing histrionics is in response to this. The effect is to shut down legitimate discussion of concerns.

The RW histrionics, as you labelled them was the genesis of trans rights being politicised.
Trans rights started to become something liberal politicians were pushing towards and naturally conservative politics rallied against it, particularly in america where that movement is rooted in the bible and God, and man and women, adam and eve, not adam and steve sort of stuff.
These people vehemently opposed pretty much any rights for LGBTI+ comminity on the back of their christian values, of which Trans is definitionally a part of.

This issue is not one of science and one of politics right now because the RW conservatives in America (which has an out sized influence on the greater RW, and honestly great politicial movements on all sides across the western world) made Trans rights a battle ground in which they weren't willing to give an inch, even on reasonable things.
The fear mongering about trans athletes dominating women's sports and "wont somebody please think of the children" sort of **** was present from day 1. It continues to be a button they push when ever one of these outlier situations comes up. And it seems we both agree they're outliers and not a big deal at all. So why all the airtime?

If the discourse on this isnt where you want it to be, that is a direct result of bible belt conservative christians and politicians deciding to make trans rights a politicial battle field. As for the bolded bit, from my experience seeing people comment on this issue, that is because the vast majority are exactly that - Transphobic. Doesnt mean they all are and some people with genuine intentions and interest in the science probably gets lost in the sauce on that, and that's a shame, but i'd rather the focus be placed on the oppressors and their actions, and not the oppressed. Or at least that's my view of how we got here.

I think its a complete and utter non factor and as per the original post from PNG, I could sit a pub with you for 8 hours and do nothing but say aloud the thoughts, questions and concerns i have about my kids and their future and trans athletics wouldnt be mentioned.

But i've already spent too much time on this, and mostly because i like you as a poster and want to give you the respect of a proper thought out response, but ill leave it there.

Thanks for the last paragraph, I appreciate that, but I think that we may have to agree to disagree on this one. In the space I work in I've seen a very strong left agenda for many years, the RNJs came after that. Perhaps that's not how it played out in the media.

Perhaps as you say genuine people get washed in the sauce, however the result is the shut down of debate. I've previously, respectfully replied on social media about women's sport along the lines of "the science doesn't support trans women in women's sport for these reasons..." followed by a link or two. Generally they were met with a barrage of abuse, and me being labelled a transphobe, which I am not. It's because of that type of behaviour colleagues are reluctant to speak up about serious concerns many of us have about how ideology rather than science is determining medical care.

Any way it might be time to move on, I gather people are over this discussion.

For anyone who is interested, check out the Real Science in Sport Podcast (search for one of the transgender episodes). Ross Tucker talks about how the IRB developed their transgender policy (I believe they were the first major sports organisation to do so). He talks about the science dispassionately, and also some of the abuse he copped for it. From a medical perspective, check out the Tavistock podcast, about the Tavistock Clinic in the UK which was shut down after an enquiry, but whose model is still followed in Australia.

[samvucago]

There is a lot of focus on the culture wars, and the right wing's involvement in them in this topic, but you continually overlook the left's role which I find far more damaging in this area. The response to the left to anyone that questions their ideology or doctrine in the trans space is to label them transphobic, dox them and threaten them. In my opinion, the right wing histrionics is in response to this. The effect is to shut down legitimate discussion of concerns.

The RW histrionics, as you labelled them was the genesis of trans rights being politicised.
Trans rights started to become something liberal politicians were pushing towards and naturally conservative politics rallied against it, particularly in america where that movement is rooted in the bible and God, and man and women, adam and eve, not adam and steve sort of stuff.
These people vehemently opposed pretty much any rights for LGBTI+ comminity on the back of their christian values, of which Trans is definitionally a part of.

This issue is not one of science and one of politics right now because the RW conservatives in America (which has an out sized influence on the greater RW, and honestly great politicial movements on all sides across the western world) made Trans rights a battle ground in which they weren't willing to give an inch, even on reasonable things.
The fear mongering about trans athletes dominating women's sports and "wont somebody please think of the children" sort of **** was present from day 1. It continues to be a button they push when ever one of these outlier situations comes up. And it seems we both agree they're outliers and not a big deal at all. So why all the airtime?

If the discourse on this isnt where you want it to be, that is a direct result of bible belt conservative christians and politicians deciding to make trans rights a politicial battle field. As for the bolded bit, from my experience seeing people comment on this issue, that is because the vast majority are exactly that - Transphobic. Doesnt mean they all are and some people with genuine intentions and interest in the science probably gets lost in the sauce on that, and that's a shame, but i'd rather the focus be placed on the oppressors and their actions, and not the oppressed. Or at least that's my view of how we got here.

I think its a complete and utter non factor and as per the original post from PNG, I could sit a pub with you for 8 hours and do nothing but say aloud the thoughts, questions and concerns i have about my kids and their future and trans athletics wouldnt be mentioned.

But i've already spent too much time on this, and mostly because i like you as a poster and want to give you the respect of a proper thought out response, but ill leave it there.

Thanks for the last paragraph, I appreciate that, but I think that we may have to agree to disagree on this one. In the space I work in I've seen a very strong left agenda for many years, the RNJs came after that. Perhaps that's not how it played out in the media.

Perhaps as you say genuine people get washed in the sauce, however the result is the shut down of debate. I've previously, respectfully replied on social media about women's sport along the lines of "the science doesn't support trans women in women's sport for these reasons..." followed by a link or two. Generally they were met with a barrage of abuse, and me being labelled a transphobe, which I am not. It's because of that type of behaviour colleagues are reluctant to speak up about serious concerns many of us have about how ideology rather than science is determining medical care.

Any way it might be time to move on, I gather people are over this discussion.

For anyone who is interested, check out the Real Science in Sport Podcast (search for one of the transgender episodes). Ross Tucker talks about how the IRB developed their transgender policy (I believe they were the first major sports organisation to do so). He talks about the science dispassionately, and also some of the abuse he copped for it. From a medical perspective, check out the Tavistock podcast, about the Tavistock Clinic in the UK which was shut down after an enquiry, but whose model is still followed in Australia.

Great discussion everyone. Let’s hug all hug it out and be thankful that EDIT

I jest of course but I find a decent forum where people can put their views forward without being hammered by low blows and personal insults a good place to seek the “opposite” side of whichever opinions I may hold. (Except the Rickheads … they are delusional)

[gangrenous]

I reckon you’ll find most people here agree with you doc, and I share your frustration about being able to have a tough conversation without people over-reacting.

I think had the conversation started with you discussing your concerns things would have been different.

But it wasn’t, it was started by the “define a woman” and the sky is falling crew. Everyone knows their schtick and no-one is here for it.

[Dr Zaius]

22/7/2024 - Biden steps down
Trump $1.50, Harris $3.40.

23/7/24 - 24 hours in
Trump $1.45, Harris $2.80

24/7/24 - 48 hours in
Trump $1.53, Harris $2.50

29/7/24 - A week in
Trump $1.57, Harris $2.30

5/8/24 - 2 weeks in
Trump $1.72, Harris $2.00

12/8/24 - 3 weeks in
Trump $2.00, Harris $1.80

19/8/24 - 4 weeks in
Trump $1.95, Harris $1.85

26/8/24 - 5 weeks in
Trump $1.97, Harris $1.97

3/9/2025 - 6 weeks in
Trump $1.86, Harris $1.93

9/9/24 - 7 weeks in
Trump $1.80, Harris $2.10

Are we looking at a post DNC correction in the odds? Harris $1.28 to Trump and 3.30 in the popular vote.

[The Nickman]

I think we’re just looking at weight of bets now, nothing else in it for a race that’s harder to pick than a broken nose.

[Dr Zaius]

A big day today, the Presidential Debate. I'm hoping Kamala slaps him down, and Trump delivers a Biden level bed ****

[The Nickman]

The debate is tomorrow, isn’t it?

[The Nickman]

Yeah, just looked it up… midday tomorrow

[Dr Zaius]

Man, I got all riled up for nothing

[The Nickman]

Man, I got all riled up for nothing

Gonna be exciting though. This debate could very well decide the election, in my opinion.

[Northern Raider]

Man, I got all riled up for nothing

Gonna be exciting though. This debate could very well decide the election, in my opinion.

I'm expecting a monumental cringe fest.

[Azza]

Thought they foo'ed making it on 9/11... but then realised they are a day behind.

[papabear]

I hope the police / justice system puts every violent protestor behind bars for a long long time.

You can air your grievance about whatever issue but if you turn to violence you should be locked up.

[The Nickman]

I hope the police / justice system puts every violent protestor behind bars for a long long time.

You can air your grievance about whatever issue but if you turn to violence you should be locked up.

What's this in reference to?

[The Nickman]

Yeah, just looked it up… midday tomorrow

Looks like it's actually 11am, meaning... it's one hour until go time, baby.

[The Nickman]

Slow start, but Harris is absolutely shredding Trump on abortion now, as Biden should've done, but was simply incapable.

[Ron78]

Slow start, but Harris is absolutely shredding Trump on abortion now, as Biden should've done, but was simply incapable.

And on illegal immigration.
Def nervous start but she is def holding her own now


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[The Nickman]

Seems to be a bit of weight on betting back on Harris now due to this debate, odds have flipped again.

[The Nickman]

And Taylor Swift has just endorsed Kamala Harris... it's Joever.

[Botman]

Didnt see any of the debate beyond a few 30 second clips on Twitter but I've also seen some clips of some Fox News people saying it was a bad night for Trump and praising Kamala for her performance and others declaring it a no win for either party... i must have been pretty one sided if that's where Fox is at on it

[The Nickman]

Didnt see any of the debate beyond a few 30 second clips on Twitter but I've also seen some clips of some Fox News people saying it was a bad night for Trump and praising Kamala for her performance and others declaring it a no win for either party... i must have been pretty one sided if that's where Fox is at on it

I think Harris won the debate 22-2. I see some of the fiercest Trump supporters saying this debate didn't matter and it won't change anything... which is coincidentally the same message ardent Biden supporters were pushing after the last one.

[-TW-]

Trump crapping on immigrants eating dogs was some unhinged ****

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[The Nickman]

Trump crapping on immigrants eating dogs was some unhinged ****

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Hahaha he spat out so much conspiracy theory nonsense and Harris gave it the absolute respect it deserved.

When he tried to say there's states you can have an abortion after birth, he got hammered from not only Harris, but the moderators too!

[Azza]

Biden handed Trump the first debate, Trump pretty much did the same in return for the second.

[The Nickman]

Biden handed Trump the first debate, Trump pretty much did the same in return for the second.

I said after the first debate that anyone half competent and able to spit out a coherent sentence would’ve taken Trump to town on items like abortion, Project 2025 and Jan 6th… and turns out I was right!