2024 Round 9 v Sea Eagles: Game Day

[Botman]

I'm watching the second half now because I went out last night. Good performance tbh

But tapine breaking from the scrum the literal second he was able to and putting pressure on the passer was such a huge play at the end

And a good no call by the official who I was certain was about to bail them out with a pen and changed his mind last second

[-PJ-]

I’m bored, might watch it again.

[pickles]

I just admit I had zero hope of us winning that game and at 20-0 down everything was going just as I expected. To come back from that position shows that this team has a bit of ticker and that will go a long way.

One thing that stood out from last week was that we defended as a team. Against the sharks it was allowing defenders to be isolated and presenting a staggered line that cost us and there was significant improvement in that department.

Some of our tries were opportunistic but so were there’s so I think that evened out.

Ricky clearly wanted a bit more experience on the field and it seemed to pay off with Whitehead playing the game of his life and the rest of the team following him as well as Cotric tiptoeing down the sideline and Tapine making the play from the scrum.

We needed senior players to lead the way and they did.

I guess the season will continue like this. Some bad losses and some amazing wins. As long as we continue to work together as a team and improve each week I’ll be happy. Probably not as happy as I was last night but still happy


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[Travis]

Except that we have looked like that for the best part of two decades, not just this week or even this year.

That is correct, but in the Game Day thread (and really, in the context of this season) it's mostly irrelevant.

Is it though?

Hi Zaius, I think you may have misinterpreted the point of my comment. I am not entering the debate around the various aspects of coaching. I can't control any of that, but I can control my expectations of the team's attacking performance. The point of my previous post is that expectations of the team's performance should be balanced with an understanding of the reality of the current squad.

We realistically don't have a team capable of producing highly organised, well-structured and sustainable attack (defence is a totally different topic). I don't expect that of the current available squad, at this point in time. My expectations are that we lose the majority of games against sides with a strong defence.

If anything, critics of the coaching team should have even lower expectations.

Edit: Pickles just articulated what I am trying to say.

[Dr Zaius]

Except that we have looked like that for the best part of two decades, not just this week or even this year.

That is correct, but in the Game Day thread (and really, in the context of this season) it's mostly irrelevant.

Is it though?

Hi Zaius, I think you may have misinterpreted the point of my comment. I am not entering the debate around the various aspects of coaching. I can't control any of that, but I can control my expectations of the team's attacking performance. The point of my previous post is that expectations of the team's performance should be balanced with an understanding of the reality of the current squad.

We realistically don't have a team capable of producing highly organised, well-structured and sustainable attack (defence is a totally different topic). I don't expect that of the current available squad, at this point in time. My expectations are that we lose the majority of games against sides with a strong defence.

If anything, critics of the coaching team should have even lower expectations.

Edit: Pickles just articulated what I am trying to say.

The difficulty for those youngsters is there is no pre existing structure for them to come up and slot in to. Our attack is a dog's breakfast and has been for many years. We literally chuck it around and hope that someone does something awesome. If there were structures that they were familiar with, they wouldn't be as slick as our regular spine but they'd look at least semi coherent. Teams like Melbourne and Penrith do this well.

[Finchy]

You know, I'm starting to feel more confident. No one gives us a chance, including us... it would be peak raiders to go out there and win it.

You IDIOT

You IDIOT Azza...you had it right the first time.

[Seiffert82]

Let's not get carried away. We didn't get the rub of the green from the ref, but Manly were ordinary. Nevertheless a great win away from home!

Great win away from home against a bogey team, especially coming back from 20-0.

But when you analyse the tries, they weren’t from great attack or systems and structures. Weekes and Whitehead scored from Manly errors. Two tries were from kicks. Whitehead scored from a barge over close to the line. I like our second phase play though. The defence in the first half wasn’t that good but the line speed improved in the second half.

Manly kept us in the game through their errors.

Have to laugh at some of the comments that blame it on a young spine or the quality of the players when we lose or are losing and attribute it to great coaching when we win.

Perhaps, but Manly scored two tries off our errors in the first half and had a 14 point lead on the back of an 11-2 penalty count (and sin bin) against us.

There's a lot of focus on the 0 points scored, but our biggest issue last weekend was the horrific defence. That was resolved this week. And despite the 20 points Manly scored on the back of our errors and repeat sets, our defence was actually quite good in the first half.

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[gerg]

It was noticeable when Starling and Mooney came on how our defensive line compressed and our line speed improved. Weird game. Didn't look like Manly wanted to win it in the second half. They're getting run down, and then overtaken and DCE and Tommy didn’t even really attempt to do anything about it.

Good effort from the whole team. A lot of luck involved. I thought we were unlucky in some of the first half and then took our chances in the second, with a bit of luck.

That short kick from Strange was very good. To get it past DCE through the gap and perfectly placed. Well done young man.

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[Seiffert82]

Except that we have looked like that for the best part of two decades, not just this week or even this year.

That is correct, but in the Game Day thread (and really, in the context of this season) it's mostly irrelevant.

Is it though?

Hi Zaius, I think you may have misinterpreted the point of my comment. I am not entering the debate around the various aspects of coaching. I can't control any of that, but I can control my expectations of the team's attacking performance. The point of my previous post is that expectations of the team's performance should be balanced with an understanding of the reality of the current squad.

We realistically don't have a team capable of producing highly organised, well-structured and sustainable attack (defence is a totally different topic). I don't expect that of the current available squad, at this point in time. My expectations are that we lose the majority of games against sides with a strong defence.

If anything, critics of the coaching team should have even lower expectations.

Edit: Pickles just articulated what I am trying to say.

The difficulty for those youngsters is there is no pre existing structure for them to come up and slot in to. Our attack is a dog's breakfast and has been for many years. We literally chuck it around and hope that someone does something awesome. If there were structures that they were familiar with, they wouldn't be as slick as our regular spine but they'd look at least semi coherent. Teams like Melbourne and Penrith do this well.

Those two teams are the only ones who have had a moderately consistent attacking structure over the last 5 seasons.

I honestly think many people watch those two teams and start to believe that how all the NRL teams play, and the Raiders are the outlier. It's simply not true. Those two teams are the outliers over recent history.

Using Manly as an example, they are generally rubbish without DCE and Trbojevic. It's not their 'system' that wins games for them. The team has only played finals football 4 out of the last 10 seasons.



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[Travis]

The difficulty for those youngsters is there is no pre existing structure for them to come up and slot in to. Our attack is a dog's breakfast and has been for many years. We literally chuck it around and hope that someone does something awesome. If there were structures that they were familiar with, they wouldn't be as slick as our regular spine but they'd look at least semi coherent. Teams like Melbourne and Penrith do this well.

I certainly get your point, and I'm not entirely disagreeing with your stance, but I think it is an overly simplified representation of how teams are coached. Again, I'll preface this by clearly stating I'm not criticising or defending a coaching setup I know next to nothing about (ie. the Raiders).

A coaching team will develop a game plan that suits the relative strengths and weaknesses of their team. Most game plans are pretty straight forward and broken in to three main parts of the field. Exit sets and yardage sets are typically similar across all teams. Attacking sets, (which I imagine you are referring to when you describe pre-existing structure to slot into), certainly take into account where the strengths of a team lie. I can guarantee that all teams have set plays (eg. backline moves) that are trained from different points of the field when attacking between the 40 and the goal line. In unopposed training sessions, these are learnt by repetition, and the majority of them utilise variations and combinations of the same 4 or 5 basic plays. They are based on the strengths of the players in certain positions.

How well-executed these are (ie. decisions around when and where to do what plays, the speed at which they occur and the minor adjustments that test muscle memory-based defensive decisions) is dependent on the key decision makers in the team (ie. the spine players, but most importantly, the 9 and the 7). While these get tested out in opposed sessions at training, the execution in an NRL game is far more complicated, as fast defensive lines and smarter, fitter and stronger players making defensive decisions are forcing the attacking players to play faster, think faster and react quicker.

A team may have the best attacking structures in the competition whilst on the training paddock, however the execution in a game can make them look very poor in quality. When the execution of the plays are dependent on a 9 who is an above-average reserve grade player and a rookie 7 whose primary strength is a ball-runner, rather than ball-player (though, to give Weekes credit, he demonstrated good vision at times yesterday), then my expectation is we will play a pressured, poorly executed attacking style.

It's no coincidence that the two teams you mentioned have held sustained success due to discerning decision-making around the consistent make-up of their spines (ie. long-term excellent players). Another example is the change in Brisbane with the arrival of Reynolds and Walsh. Better spine players add control and quality decision-making to a game. A player who can make the same decisions under fatigue and under huge pressure as they can at training is a requirement for consistently good attack.

Anyway, sorry it was a bit long.

[Shiv]

I was just reading the Manly game day thread. The funniest thing was the complaining how past players came back to play the game of their life against them (in this case Weeks).
Oh how many times have we complained about the exact same thing?? thats funny.

[Northern Raider]

I was just reading the Manly game day thread. The funniest thing was the complaining how past players came back to play the game of their life against them (in this case Weeks).
Oh how many times have we complained about the exact same thing?? thats funny.

Do they want Hoppa and Levi back?

[Finchy]

The difficulty for those youngsters is there is no pre existing structure for them to come up and slot in to. Our attack is a dog's breakfast and has been for many years. We literally chuck it around and hope that someone does something awesome. If there were structures that they were familiar with, they wouldn't be as slick as our regular spine but they'd look at least semi coherent. Teams like Melbourne and Penrith do this well.

I certainly get your point, and I'm not entirely disagreeing with your stance, but I think it is an overly simplified representation of how teams are coached. Again, I'll preface this by clearly stating I'm not criticising or defending a coaching setup I know next to nothing about (ie. the Raiders).

A coaching team will develop a game plan that suits the relative strengths and weaknesses of their team. Most game plans are pretty straight forward and broken in to three main parts of the field. Exit sets and yardage sets are typically similar across all teams. Attacking sets, (which I imagine you are referring to when you describe pre-existing structure to slot into), certainly take into account where the strengths of a team lie. I can guarantee that all teams have set plays (eg. backline moves) that are trained from different points of the field when attacking between the 40 and the goal line. In unopposed training sessions, these are learnt by repetition, and the majority of them utilise variations and combinations of the same 4 or 5 basic plays. They are based on the strengths of the players in certain positions.

How well-executed these are (ie. decisions around when and where to do what plays, the speed at which they occur and the minor adjustments that test muscle memory-based defensive decisions) is dependent on the key decision makers in the team (ie. the spine players, but most importantly, the 9 and the 7). While these get tested out in opposed sessions at training, the execution in an NRL game is far more complicated, as fast defensive lines and smarter, fitter and stronger players making defensive decisions are forcing the attacking players to play faster, think faster and react quicker.

A team may have the best attacking structures in the competition whilst on the training paddock, however the execution in a game can make them look very poor in quality. When the execution of the plays are dependent on a 9 who is an above-average reserve grade player and a rookie 7 whose primary strength is a ball-runner, rather than ball-player (though, to give Weekes credit, he demonstrated good vision at times yesterday), then my expectation is we will play a pressured, poorly executed attacking style.

It's no coincidence that the two teams you mentioned have held sustained success due to discerning decision-making around the consistent make-up of their spines (ie. long-term excellent players). Another example is the change in Brisbane with the arrival of Reynolds and Walsh. Better spine players add control and quality decision-making to a game. A player who can make the same decisions under fatigue and under huge pressure as they can at training is a requirement for consistently good attack.

Anyway, sorry it was a bit long.

The Panthers and Storm have had plenty of disruptions to their teams over the years, including in the spine. It was mentioned in commentary a couple weeks ago that it was the first time in more than 2 years that the Storm had their first-choice spine all available (Papenhuyzen, Munster, Hughes, Grant).

Panthers have gone through a few hookers in Egan, Koroisau, Kenny. Cleary has missed large chunks of the last few seasons and their back up halves (O’Sullivan, Cogger, Schneider) have slotted in comfortably within their set structures.

[Dr Zaius]

That is correct, but in the Game Day thread (and really, in the context of this season) it's mostly irrelevant.

Is it though?

Hi Zaius, I think you may have misinterpreted the point of my comment. I am not entering the debate around the various aspects of coaching. I can't control any of that, but I can control my expectations of the team's attacking performance. The point of my previous post is that expectations of the team's performance should be balanced with an understanding of the reality of the current squad.

We realistically don't have a team capable of producing highly organised, well-structured and sustainable attack (defence is a totally different topic). I don't expect that of the current available squad, at this point in time. My expectations are that we lose the majority of games against sides with a strong defence.

If anything, critics of the coaching team should have even lower expectations.

Edit: Pickles just articulated what I am trying to say.

The difficulty for those youngsters is there is no pre existing structure for them to come up and slot in to. Our attack is a dog's breakfast and has been for many years. We literally chuck it around and hope that someone does something awesome. If there were structures that they were familiar with, they wouldn't be as slick as our regular spine but they'd look at least semi coherent. Teams like Melbourne and Penrith do this well.

Those two teams are the only ones who have had a moderately consistent attacking structure over the last 5 seasons.

I honestly think many people watch those two teams and start to believe that how all the NRL teams play, and the Raiders are the outlier. It's simply not true. Those two teams are the outliers over recent history.

Using Manly as an example, they are generally rubbish without DCE and Trbojevic. It's not their 'system' that wins games for them. The team has only played finals football 4 out of the last 10 seasons.



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You're right. We shouldn't aspire to be well coached like those two teams.

[Seiffert82]

Is it though?

Hi Zaius, I think you may have misinterpreted the point of my comment. I am not entering the debate around the various aspects of coaching. I can't control any of that, but I can control my expectations of the team's attacking performance. The point of my previous post is that expectations of the team's performance should be balanced with an understanding of the reality of the current squad.

We realistically don't have a team capable of producing highly organised, well-structured and sustainable attack (defence is a totally different topic). I don't expect that of the current available squad, at this point in time. My expectations are that we lose the majority of games against sides with a strong defence.

If anything, critics of the coaching team should have even lower expectations.

Edit: Pickles just articulated what I am trying to say.

The difficulty for those youngsters is there is no pre existing structure for them to come up and slot in to. Our attack is a dog's breakfast and has been for many years. We literally chuck it around and hope that someone does something awesome. If there were structures that they were familiar with, they wouldn't be as slick as our regular spine but they'd look at least semi coherent. Teams like Melbourne and Penrith do this well.

Those two teams are the only ones who have had a moderately consistent attacking structure over the last 5 seasons.

I honestly think many people watch those two teams and start to believe that how all the NRL teams play, and the Raiders are the outlier. It's simply not true. Those two teams are the outliers over recent history.

Using Manly as an example, they are generally rubbish without DCE and Trbojevic. It's not their 'system' that wins games for them. The team has only played finals football 4 out of the last 10 seasons.



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You're right. We shouldn't aspire to be well coached like those two teams.

I didn't say that at all.

Each to their own on this stuff. When Hodgo arrived we developed one of the best ad-lib attacks in the NRL over 2016-2018, but had a rubbish defence.

I think our attack looked perfectly fine in 2019 and 2020 (just above NRL average), but it took a back seat to our defence when we contended for a premiership.

The last 3 years have been quite ordinary. The too-old playing personnel over that period had as much to do with our clunky attack as the coaching style. The makeup of the squad is on the coach too.

I see a much improved attack on the horizon, so what our club did in 2016 (when we had the best attack in the NRL) or 2022 is a bit irrelevant to me.

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[greeneyed]

'Those young blokes grow around that': Whitehead turns back the clock to help Raiders' next gen

It's one of his best games in lime green, but more importantly Elliott Whitehead's return has been labelled a crucial cog in the development of the Canberra Raiders' generation next.

"He played one of his best games that I've seen him play. It's not just the two tries," Stuart said of his captain. "His leadership, his contribution in team meetings. We missed three or four of our senior boys last week and he was massive, Elliott. He was as good off the field in our preparation as he was on it. Those young blokes grow around that."

Read more: https://www.canberratimes.com.au/story/ ... tion-next/

[Bulldog]

'Those young blokes grow around that': Whitehead turns back the clock to help Raiders' next gen

It's one of his best games in lime green, but more importantly Elliott Whitehead's return has been labelled a crucial cog in the development of the Canberra Raiders' generation next.

"He played one of his best games that I've seen him play. It's not just the two tries," Stuart said of his captain. "His leadership, his contribution in team meetings. We missed three or four of our senior boys last week and he was massive, Elliott. He was as good off the field in our preparation as he was on it. Those young blokes grow around that."

Read more: https://www.canberratimes.com.au/story/ ... tion-next/

The return of Whitehead just shows how much we missed his cool head and experience. The whole team lifted and the young players have been given a lesson in leadership they will never forget.

[RedRaider]

It was noticeable when Starling and Mooney came on how our defensive line compressed and our line speed improved. Weird game. Didn't look like Manly wanted to win it in the second half. They're getting run down, and then overtaken and DCE and Tommy didn’t even really attempt to do anything about it.

Good effort from the whole team. A lot of luck involved. I thought we were unlucky in some of the first half and then took our chances in the second, with a bit of luck.

That short kick from Strange was very good. To get it past DCE through the gap and perfectly placed. Well done young man.

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100% agree gerg. How many times in recent years have we seen our halves attempt to grubber into the in goal only to hit opposition legs, or kick it dead or leave it easy for the opposition to field. With the game on the line he has threaded the needle and weighted it perfectly for Hudson Young to go through and score the match winner. Gotta love the skills of Ethan Strange and the confidence to have a go under pressure.

[BadnMean]

It was noticeable when Starling and Mooney came on how our defensive line compressed and our line speed improved. Weird game. Didn't look like Manly wanted to win it in the second half. They're getting run down, and then overtaken and DCE and Tommy didn’t even really attempt to do anything about it.

Good effort from the whole team. A lot of luck involved. I thought we were unlucky in some of the first half and then took our chances in the second, with a bit of luck.

That short kick from Strange was very good. To get it past DCE through the gap and perfectly placed. Well done young man.

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100% agree gerg. How many times in recent years have we seen our halves attempt to grubber into the in goal only to hit opposition legs, or kick it dead or leave it easy for the opposition to field. With the game on the line he has threaded the needle and weighted it perfectly for Hudson Young to go through and score the match winner. Gotta love the skills of Ethan Strange and the confidence to have a go under pressure.

Twice already this season he’s pulled a game out of the fire for us. Really impressive temperament.

[Dr Zaius]

It was noticeable when Starling and Mooney came on how our defensive line compressed and our line speed improved. Weird game. Didn't look like Manly wanted to win it in the second half. They're getting run down, and then overtaken and DCE and Tommy didn’t even really attempt to do anything about it.

Good effort from the whole team. A lot of luck involved. I thought we were unlucky in some of the first half and then took our chances in the second, with a bit of luck.

That short kick from Strange was very good. To get it past DCE through the gap and perfectly placed. Well done young man.

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100% agree gerg. How many times in recent years have we seen our halves attempt to grubber into the in goal only to hit opposition legs, or kick it dead or leave it easy for the opposition to field. With the game on the line he has threaded the needle and weighted it perfectly for Hudson Young to go through and score the match winner. Gotta love the skills of Ethan Strange and the confidence to have a go under pressure.

Twice already this season he’s pulled a game out of the fire for us. Really impressive temperament.

Jack would have rocketed into Row 24 behind goals

[BJ]

Jack could roll a grubber past the dead ball line from halfway. He just isn’t a finesse player.

Fog and Strange definitely have the better short kicking games than our previous halves of the last decade. Fog probably has the best long kicking game too.

[Azza]

Early days but I'm far more impressed by Strange than I was by Wighton at the corresponding stages of their respective careers.

[The Nickman]

It was noticeable when Starling and Mooney came on how our defensive line compressed and our line speed improved. Weird game. Didn't look like Manly wanted to win it in the second half. They're getting run down, and then overtaken and DCE and Tommy didn’t even really attempt to do anything about it.

Good effort from the whole team. A lot of luck involved. I thought we were unlucky in some of the first half and then took our chances in the second, with a bit of luck.

That short kick from Strange was very good. To get it past DCE through the gap and perfectly placed. Well done young man.

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100% agree gerg. How many times in recent years have we seen our halves attempt to grubber into the in goal only to hit opposition legs, or kick it dead or leave it easy for the opposition to field. With the game on the line he has threaded the needle and weighted it perfectly for Hudson Young to go through and score the match winner. Gotta love the skills of Ethan Strange and the confidence to have a go under pressure.

Twice already this season he’s pulled a game out of the fire for us. Really impressive temperament.

Jack would have rocketed into Row 24 behind goals

And then he’s laughing and happy with the opposition players after the game.

It’s good to see.

[Azza]

And then he’s laughing and happy with the opposition players after the game.

It’s good to see.

This seems to happen a lot with players in the modern game, I can understand why it drives fans nuts.

[-TW-]

And then he’s laughing and happy with the opposition players after the game.

It’s good to see.

This seems to happen a lot with players in the modern game, I can understand why it drives fans nuts.

Should ask Bulldog Ritchie his opinion on it

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[BadnMean]

Jack could roll a grubber past the dead ball line from halfway. He just isn’t a finesse player.

Fog and Strange definitely have the better short kicking games than our previous halves of the last decade. Fog probably has the best long kicking game too.

Fog this season was the best I've seen a raiders half kick since Sticky. Arguably Campo but I don't remember him getting quite as many try assists with the boot or quite the same precision bringing long bombs down on the 5m mark.

[BadnMean]

I guess now is when those of us who were still "on" Hudson Young - good yards all year, great effort we just post annoying reminders?

Another annoying reminder that Young isn't having a bad year at all...

[greeneyed]

I guess now is when those of us who were still "on" Hudson Young - good yards all year, great effort we just post annoying reminders?

Another annoying reminder that Young isn't having a bad year at all...

I believe he scored two tries last night, including the winning try.