Ruben Daley wrote: ↑March 12, 2024, 3:37 pm
Just on Hoppa, I wonder what the forum’s thoughts would be if someone else came into the team and got 166m, 1 try assist,1 line break assist and 2 offloads from centre and whether we wouldn’t be a touch more positive in our reviews of his performance.
Sure, we’ve got to take Hoppa’s previous performances into account but he demonstrated more ball-playing ability against the Knights than we’ve seen pretty much ever before, which might just be a one-off or a sign he’s increasing his repertoire.
Personally, I’m okay if Hoppa holds his spot for a few more weeks if he keeps playing like last week.
If he looks at video of how he was competing for bombs while at centre and thinks to himself "Hey, why can't I do that elsewhere on the field instead of taking a nap?" then I'll start being more positive towards him as a winger.
He was far better in round 1 than he was in the trials.
It's a very different kettle of fish competing for a bomb in attack, with no genuine pressure to take the ball, compared with playing fullback and being exposed to a shot in the ribs or spilling the ball in bad field position.
"I really was [nervous] for second there," Guler said. "I thought I might be gone because they've been cracking down on the leg lifts. But once I heard that I was fined I was pretty relieved."
Ruben Daley wrote: ↑March 12, 2024, 3:37 pm
Just on Hoppa, I wonder what the forum’s thoughts would be if someone else came into the team and got 166m, 1 try assist,1 line break assist and 2 offloads from centre and whether we wouldn’t be a touch more positive in our reviews of his performance.
Sure, we’ve got to take Hoppa’s previous performances into account but he demonstrated more ball-playing ability against the Knights than we’ve seen pretty much ever before, which might just be a one-off or a sign he’s increasing his repertoire.
Personally, I’m okay if Hoppa holds his spot for a few more weeks if he keeps playing like last week.
If he looks at video of how he was competing for bombs while at centre and thinks to himself "Hey, why can't I do that elsewhere on the field instead of taking a nap?" then I'll start being more positive towards him as a winger.
He was far better in round 1 than he was in the trials.
It's a very different kettle of fish competing for a bomb in attack, with no genuine pressure to take the ball, compared with playing fullback and being exposed to a shot in the ribs or spilling the ball in bad field position.
Are you trying to say he should be given a pass for not doing the most basic part of catching a bomb (staying upright until you have the ball) because it's in a more difficult position?
Surely you're not trying to justify the laying on the ground before the ball lands as a legitimate technique for catching a bomb?
The idea that bombs are harder to catch at wing and fullback is not really new stuff and seems to be on a few people's minds when selecting Cotric instead of hoppa.
"I really was [nervous] for second there," Guler said. "I thought I might be gone because they've been cracking down on the leg lifts. But once I heard that I was fined I was pretty relieved."
Ruben Daley wrote: ↑March 12, 2024, 3:37 pm
Just on Hoppa, I wonder what the forum’s thoughts would be if someone else came into the team and got 166m, 1 try assist,1 line break assist and 2 offloads from centre and whether we wouldn’t be a touch more positive in our reviews of his performance.
Sure, we’ve got to take Hoppa’s previous performances into account but he demonstrated more ball-playing ability against the Knights than we’ve seen pretty much ever before, which might just be a one-off or a sign he’s increasing his repertoire.
Personally, I’m okay if Hoppa holds his spot for a few more weeks if he keeps playing like last week.
If he looks at video of how he was competing for bombs while at centre and thinks to himself "Hey, why can't I do that elsewhere on the field instead of taking a nap?" then I'll start being more positive towards him as a winger.
He was far better in round 1 than he was in the trials.
It's a very different kettle of fish competing for a bomb in attack, with no genuine pressure to take the ball, compared with playing fullback and being exposed to a shot in the ribs or spilling the ball in bad field position.
Are you trying to say he should be given a pass for not doing the most basic part of catching a bomb (staying upright until you have the ball) because it's in a more difficult position?
Surely you're not trying to justify the laying on the ground before the ball lands as a legitimate technique for catching a bomb?
The idea that bombs are harder to catch at wing and fullback is not really new stuff and seems to be on a few people's minds when selecting Cotric instead of hoppa.
No. Hopoate is a terrible fullback under the bomb. Terrible. I absolutely want Cotric in the team over him.
I'm saying the way Hopoate attacked bombs in attack just highlights how nervous he is in attacking bombs in defence. He's so crap at it that it has become a psychological issue...to the extent he now refuses to jump for the ball.
His defensive reads on the wing are also often poor. Hopefully that improves playing outside of a decent centre if he stays in the team for a period of time.
Finchy wrote:Bula, Koroisau, and Bateman are our biggest concerns and their biggest scoring threats against us.
Holy **** they really are in a world of pain.
Bula is the poor man's Kailyn Ponga, Koroisau is the poor man's Damian Cook and Bateman is the poor man's Kenny Bromwich.
And by that I mean they are all well past their best, except for Bula, who was never particularly good. And by poor man's, I mean they are all likely horrendously overpaid because of who they play for.
I'd have selected Cotric but there just isn't a massive gap between the two. Do you prefer an extra 50m/6 involvements out of Hoppa or a solid defender in Cotric.
The part I'm really happy about is Kris back at home at left centre.
* this assumes Stick doesn't do a Stick and swap the centres to their least preferred side.
NoMan wrote: ↑March 12, 2024, 5:05 pm
Fair call that Bateman is past his prime but Korisau and Bula are very good players. I'd take them both over our current 1 and 9.
Api absolutely.
Bula is still young, but he'll be a threat, no question
The spiral of silence refers to the idea that when people fail to speak, the price of speaking rises. As the price to speak rises, still fewer speak out, which further causes the price to rise, so that fewer people yet will speak out, until a whole culture or nation is silenced. This is what happened in Germany.
If you do not speak, you are not being neutral, but are contributing to the success of the thing you refuse to name and condemn.
Dusty wrote: ↑March 12, 2024, 3:05 pm
I'm ok with Hoppa over Cotric.
Hoppa is more effective carrying the ball out of trouble... Cotric crabs sideways and gets dominated.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I agree with you Dusty
I don't.
Hoppa has the turning circle of an elephant. I think his metres gained stat is reflective of opportunity, not talent.
Cotric runs infield. So do many wingers.
Hoppa contests the ball awfully.
Cotric is faster.
Hoppa is a dead set B grade player that for whatever reason finds favour with the coach
The spiral of silence refers to the idea that when people fail to speak, the price of speaking rises. As the price to speak rises, still fewer speak out, which further causes the price to rise, so that fewer people yet will speak out, until a whole culture or nation is silenced. This is what happened in Germany.
If you do not speak, you are not being neutral, but are contributing to the success of the thing you refuse to name and condemn.
Ruben Daley wrote: ↑March 12, 2024, 3:37 pm
Just on Hoppa, I wonder what the forum’s thoughts would be if someone else came into the team and got 166m, 1 try assist,1 line break assist and 2 offloads from centre and whether we wouldn’t be a touch more positive in our reviews of his performance.
Sure, we’ve got to take Hoppa’s previous performances into account but he demonstrated more ball-playing ability against the Knights than we’ve seen pretty much ever before, which might just be a one-off or a sign he’s increasing his repertoire.
Personally, I’m okay if Hoppa holds his spot for a few more weeks if he keeps playing like last week.
If he looks at video of how he was competing for bombs while at centre and thinks to himself "Hey, why can't I do that elsewhere on the field instead of taking a nap?" then I'll start being more positive towards him as a winger.
He was far better in round 1 than he was in the trials.
It's a very different kettle of fish competing for a bomb in attack, with no genuine pressure to take the ball, compared with playing fullback and being exposed to a shot in the ribs or spilling the ball in bad field position.
Are you trying to say he should be given a pass for not doing the most basic part of catching a bomb (staying upright until you have the ball) because it's in a more difficult position?
Surely you're not trying to justify the laying on the ground before the ball lands as a legitimate technique for catching a bomb?
The idea that bombs are harder to catch at wing and fullback is not really new stuff and seems to be on a few people's minds when selecting Cotric instead of hoppa.
No. Hopoate is a terrible fullback under the bomb. Terrible. I absolutely want Cotric in the team over him.
I'm saying the way Hopoate attacked bombs in attack just highlights how nervous he is in attacking bombs in defence. He's so crap at it that it has become a psychological issue...to the extent he now refuses to jump for the ball.
His defensive reads on the wing are also often poor. Hopefully that improves playing outside of a decent centre if he stays in the team for a period of time.
Sent from my CPH2021 using Tapatalk
You shouldn’t attack bombs in defence the way you do in attack. The risk/reward trade-off is completely different.
If you drop a bomb in defence you give a set of 6 on your line with high chance of conceding. Drop a bomb in attack, the opposition gets the ball where they would have anyway.
Stay grounded in catching in defence, higher chance of catching the ball, or stopping the defender if they get it. Jumping puts you at risk of dropping it, and in bad position to defend if the opposition gets it.
It’s one thing that actually seems tactically sensible.
But how good was it to see Hosking actually threaten in the air in attack! We haven’t had a lot of that in recent years.
The fact some are squabbling over Cotric vs Hoppa shows how minor our problems are at the moment. Schiller had a blinder in NSW cup based upon the highlights. Lots of depth and lots of positives about our squad with Asomua behind that lot. I hope we can remain injury free. Our problems are very small right now.
Bluesbrother wrote: ↑March 12, 2024, 5:57 pm
The fact some are squabbling over Cotric vs Hoppa shows how minor our problems are at the moment. Schiller had a blinder in NSW cup based upon the highlights. Lots of depth and lots of positives about our squad with Asomua behind that lot. I hope we can remain injury free. Our problems are very small right now.
Spot on BluesBrother! I’m not big on Cotric, but if he finds form gets selected and makes a good contribution then that is great! I hope Hoppa finds another level and it’s not impossible that he might (he was unfairly written off early by many) but if Asomua sweeps the field and makes himself a lock in the side that is great as well. I am happy that Savage is there. We need his speed and he took some hard carries, copped a smack in the mouth and wore it well.
Oh no not Hoppa over Crotric wonder how that decision was made, hopefully doesn't cost us the game even v Tigers we should win, it only shows that Crotric leaving to the dogs last time must have hit a nerve in raiders selection team.
Canberra Raiders supporter though thick and thin from the very beginning.
mikeraider wrote: ↑March 12, 2024, 6:08 pm
Oh no not Hoppa over Crotric wonder how that decision was made, hopefully doesn't cost us the game even v Tigers we should win, it only shows that Crotric leaving to the dogs last time must have hit a nerve in raiders selection team.
Dusty wrote: ↑March 12, 2024, 3:05 pm
I'm ok with Hoppa over Cotric.
Hoppa is more effective carrying the ball out of trouble... Cotric crabs sideways and gets dominated.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I agree with you Dusty
I don't.
Hoppa has the turning circle of an elephant. I think his metres gained stat is reflective of opportunity, not talent.
Cotric runs infield. So do many wingers.
Hoppa contests the ball awfully.
Cotric is faster.
Hoppa is a dead set B grade player that for whatever reason finds favour with the coach
The spiral of silence refers to the idea that when people fail to speak, the price of speaking rises. As the price to speak rises, still fewer speak out, which further causes the price to rise, so that fewer people yet will speak out, until a whole culture or nation is silenced. This is what happened in Germany.
If you do not speak, you are not being neutral, but are contributing to the success of the thing you refuse to name and condemn.
My main concern with Hoppa on the wing is the ease with which his lack of agility and acceleration is exploited by getting outside him.
Tigpies may not be good enough to exploit it. but most NRL teams will be- see Manly game last season (+ others) where they just spread early and got outside at will, ran long/mid range to score repeat ad nauseam.
Botman wrote: ↑March 12, 2024, 6:01 pm
The sooner Asomua ends the squabbling the better AFAIC.
Only a matter of time. 2025 back 3 should be Stewart, Asomua and Savage. Quite a damaging balance.
Hopefully sooner than later we can get Chevy, Rapana and Savage this year
Chevy might not be ready round 1 but that doesn’t mean his entire 2024 is written off. At some point Rapana will get hurt or suspended, and that will provide an opportunity to give him a crack
Dusty wrote: ↑March 12, 2024, 3:05 pm
I'm ok with Hoppa over Cotric.
Hoppa is more effective carrying the ball out of trouble... Cotric crabs sideways and gets dominated.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You realise Cotric averaged 7.3m per run vs Knights and Hoppa averaged 7.2m per run with exactly the same ptb speed?
But yes, Hoppa did more runs. Which others can simply take 1.5 more runs per half to cover for. Love his yards but your argument doesn't stand up at all. Apart from being the cliche meme take on the players.
I saw both head infield (as is smart play and coached) and I saw both get smashed and driven back at times...
My concern with Hoppa is his 'sit down' method of taking bombs. He is so low when he takes the ball that Bula will hardly have to leap to catch the ball.
Dusty wrote: ↑March 12, 2024, 3:05 pm
I'm ok with Hoppa over Cotric.
Hoppa is more effective carrying the ball out of trouble... Cotric crabs sideways and gets dominated.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I agree with you Dusty
I don't.
Hoppa has the turning circle of an elephant. I think his metres gained stat is reflective of opportunity, not talent.
Cotric runs infield. So do many wingers.
Hoppa contests the ball awfully.
Cotric is faster.
Hoppa is a dead set B grade player that for whatever reason finds favour with the coach
I haven't seen any evidence over the past two seasons to suggest Cotric is faster. I think their speed is pretty much identical.
When you take into account speed over variously distance, agility, and response time, I'd back Cotric
The spiral of silence refers to the idea that when people fail to speak, the price of speaking rises. As the price to speak rises, still fewer speak out, which further causes the price to rise, so that fewer people yet will speak out, until a whole culture or nation is silenced. This is what happened in Germany.
If you do not speak, you are not being neutral, but are contributing to the success of the thing you refuse to name and condemn.
I’m very much in the pro cotric wagon however on last weeks performance alone it would be hard to drop hoppa tbh.
In saying that if I was the tigers I definitely would be targeting him under the highball, especially with his sit down technique.
However as others have said, if the forum is whining over a winger selection it’s not a bad place to be in.
PS - this is the game raiders have lost time and time and time again in the past, we have just beaten knights 13+ at home when we’re expected to just make up the numbers, further more the tigers trial form was disappointing.
New half making his debut aswell for the tigpies.
This is a danger game of note even if it’s only round 2 make no mistake about it
Last edited by Westsydneyraider on March 12, 2024, 6:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cotric isn't super fast at turning and chasing, he's probably below average but he's able to overcome that a little bit because he reads the play very well so is able to anticipate that better
Where as if Hoppa is not the slowest turn and chase player in the league he'd top 5 for sure.
Without mentioning metres and hit ups, i'd love someone to tell me what they think Hopoate brings to the team.
Safe under the high ball? Not really.
Good offload? Na, that's not his game.
Creates tackle breaks and line breaks? Occasionally but for the most part he's done on first contact. 23 hit ups and not a single TB on the weekend.
Point of difference speed element? No chance
Sound defensively? God no, he's a liability.
If he maintains 23 hit ups this week, let's be generous and assume a hit up takes 10 seconds, that's 230 seconds of game time... lets be generous again, round it up to 4 minutes of play... what does he do in the other 76 minutes of a football game that is at NRL standard?
zim wrote:
If he looks at video of how he was competing for bombs while at centre and thinks to himself "Hey, why can't I do that elsewhere on the field instead of taking a nap?" then I'll start being more positive towards him as a winger.
He was far better in round 1 than he was in the trials.
It's a very different kettle of fish competing for a bomb in attack, with no genuine pressure to take the ball, compared with playing fullback and being exposed to a shot in the ribs or spilling the ball in bad field position.
Are you trying to say he should be given a pass for not doing the most basic part of catching a bomb (staying upright until you have the ball) because it's in a more difficult position?
Surely you're not trying to justify the laying on the ground before the ball lands as a legitimate technique for catching a bomb?
The idea that bombs are harder to catch at wing and fullback is not really new stuff and seems to be on a few people's minds when selecting Cotric instead of hoppa.
No. Hopoate is a terrible fullback under the bomb. Terrible. I absolutely want Cotric in the team over him.
I'm saying the way Hopoate attacked bombs in attack just highlights how nervous he is in attacking bombs in defence. He's so crap at it that it has become a psychological issue...to the extent he now refuses to jump for the ball.
His defensive reads on the wing are also often poor. Hopefully that improves playing outside of a decent centre if he stays in the team for a period of time.
Sent from my CPH2021 using Tapatalk
You shouldn’t attack bombs in defence the way you do in attack. The risk/reward trade-off is completely different.
If you drop a bomb in defence you give a set of 6 on your line with high chance of conceding. Drop a bomb in attack, the opposition gets the ball where they would have anyway.
Stay grounded in catching in defence, higher chance of catching the ball, or stopping the defender if they get it. Jumping puts you at risk of dropping it, and in bad position to defend if the opposition gets it.
It’s one thing that actually seems tactically sensible.
But how good was it to see Hosking actually threaten in the air in attack! We haven’t had a lot of that in recent years.
Yep, the approach to taking bombs is different.
I'm saying he's so risk adverse in defence that he practically sits on the ground when fielding kicks. He also still looks like he's prone to spilling one or two. It's a terrible way to start a set.
Botman wrote: ↑March 12, 2024, 6:44 pm
Cotric isn't super fast at turning and chasing, he's probably below average but he's able to overcome that a little bit because he reads the play very well so is able to anticipate that better
Where as if Hoppa is not the slowest turn and chase player in the league he'd top 5 for sure.
Without mentioning metres and hit ups, i'd love someone to tell me what they think Hopoate brings to the team.
Safe under the high ball? Not really.
Good offload? Na, that's not his game.
Creates tackle breaks and line breaks? Occasionally but for the most part he's done on first contact. 23 hit ups and not a single TB on the weekend.
Point of difference speed element? No chance
Sound defensively? God no, he's a liability.
If he maintains 23 hit ups this week, let's be generous and assume a hit up takes 10 seconds, that's 230 seconds of game time... lets be generous again, round it up to 4 minutes of play... what does he do in the other 76 minutes of a football game that is at NRL standard?
Devils advocate, but the argument is he is the right role player for the game plan. Ricky's going all in on backs taking 80% of the yardage runs so the middles can be used in attacking positions and to manage their workload. If he takes out Hoppa, and he doesn't trust the other backs to pick up his slack, the game plan fails.
I still agree with you and I don't think the gameplan survives the other downsides from this particular selection but I am not surprised Ricky did it. Honestly some part of me almost likes to see Ricky doubling down on a gameplan so much that it might end up proving a point of difference with the other sides. Week 1 it looked like it could.
