benda wrote: ↑August 17, 2022, 9:58 am
I admired Ricky's coaching ability
Why?
I just think Stuart turned the club around since he took over.. we didnt have first graders in key positions and Furner wasnt a first grade coach either... and the rep pkayers we did, had terrible attitudes
Stuart did attract talent and we did become a solid force. He did ok up until 2019 gf in my view. I think we got by in attack through individual brilliance.
He has build a culture in the club. There is no doubt things have significantly improved.
Then covid hit and rules changed. We lost our way since.
We cannot for the life of us structure a nice try repeatedly within 80m. For us it happens once every 2 games. Top sides are doing it 3 times a game.
I hear the arguments on Wighton not being a 6, selections in other positions and without namig then all i agree with some of them.
I just worry that he may not be the right person to take things forward. Certainty not with what we are dishing up in attack anyway. Is soo far behind the 8 ball its not even funny.
benda wrote: ↑August 17, 2022, 9:58 am
I admired Ricky's coaching ability
Why?
I just think Stuart turned the club around since he took over.. we didnt have first graders in key positions and Furner wasnt a first grade coach either... and the rep pkayers we did, had terrible attitudes
Stuart did attract talent and we did become a solid force. He did ok up until 2019 gf in my view. I think we got by in attack through individual brilliance.
He has build a culture in the club. There is no doubt things have significantly improved.
Then covid hit and rules changed. We lost our way since.
We cannot for the life of us structure a nice try repeatedly within 80m. For us it happens once every 2 games. Top sides are doing it 3 times a game.
I hear the arguments on Wighton not being a 6, selections in other positions and without namig then all i agree with some of them.
I just worry that he may not be the right person to take things forward. Certainty not with what we are dishing up in attack anyway. Is soo far behind the 8 ball its not even funny.
None of what you said here points to good "coaching ability".
In fact, the bit I've highlighted suggests the exact opposite.
The (lack of) red zone attack is a massive blight on his coaching. It's been consistent throughout. It's what cost us the 2019 GF imo, not Leilua's pass, not ref etc
We seem to attack better when we just unshackle the chains and do whatever we want. That tells me our default setting is overly restricted. Ricky's smothering coaching style would be a plausible explanation for this. Alternatively maybe he's just not very good at coaching an attack. It doesn't help that we struggle to recruit top-line spine playmakers
I agree he's done good things for culture, has created reasonable to good development pathways, forwards and defensive attitude have generally been good, etc
Canberra Milk wrote: ↑August 17, 2022, 12:22 pm
The (lack of) red zone attack is a massive blight on his coaching. It's been consistent throughout. It's what cost us the 2019 GF imo, not Leilua's pass, not ref etc
We seem to attack better when we just unshackle the chains and do whatever we want. That tells me our default setting is overly restricted. Ricky's smothering coaching style would be a plausible explanation for this. Alternatively maybe he's just not very good at coaching an attack. It doesn't help that we struggle to recruit top-line spine playmakers
I agree he's done good things for culture, has created reasonable to good development pathways, forwards and defensive attitude have generally been good, etc
Well said. Didn't Phil Gould criticise Ricky's coaching of a team's attack in a 2008 article ? I would also add that after Joey Leilua left after the GF, the right side attack has never been fluent or an attacking force that teams worry about. We had Curtis Scott there and then Semi Valemei as centres. Timoko is a good runner but not good at setting up his winger. CNK when he chimed in died with the ball. This year, Schneider and Fogarty have difficulty getting good early ball out to the centres and Cotric can catch a cold out on the wing. Whitehead being the right hand side edge runner hasn't helped.
The game we did look good on the right hand side is when Savage joined the backline on the right hand side and when Whitehead was injured and CHN played v Melbourne. Also second half v Warriors when Whitehead went off.
I do think that Savage improves our attack immensely on both sides of the field and gives us another focal point - last week was an example of that.
Canberra Milk wrote: ↑August 17, 2022, 12:22 pm
The (lack of) red zone attack is a massive blight on his coaching. It's been consistent throughout. It's what cost us the 2019 GF imo, not Leilua's pass, not ref etc
We seem to attack better when we just unshackle the chains and do whatever we want. That tells me our default setting is overly restricted. Ricky's smothering coaching style would be a plausible explanation for this. Alternatively maybe he's just not very good at coaching an attack. It doesn't help that we struggle to recruit top-line spine playmakers
I agree he's done good things for culture, has created reasonable to good development pathways, forwards and defensive attitude have generally been good, etc
Well said. Didn't Phil Gould criticise Ricky's coaching of a team's attack in a 2008 article ? I would also add that after Joey Leilua left after the GF, the right side attack has never been fluent or an attacking force that teams worry about. We had Curtis Scott there and then Semi Valemei as centres. Timoko is a good runner but not good at setting up his winger. CNK when he chimed in died with the ball. This year, Schneider and Fogarty have difficulty getting good early ball out to the centres and Cotric can catch a cold out on the wing. Whitehead being the right hand side edge runner hasn't helped.
The game we did look good on the right hand side is when Savage joined the backline on the right hand side and when Whitehead was injured and CHN played v Melbourne. Also second half v Warriors when Whitehead went off.
I do think that Savage improves our attack immensely on both sides of the field and gives us another focal point - last week was an example of that.
No point getting early ball out to centres if they're well marked. I'd say the fundamental error in our attack is that we don't force the opposition to make defensive decisions through decoys or diversion. Our centres get given the ball with no option but try and run over their opponent 9 times out of 10. It doesn't matter of they have 3m to wind up or 7m, usually they are being shut down easily.
It's part of why CHN always looks like a big improvement. He just naturally runs those awkward lines at speed that force decisions. If we could just get him to be more consistent.
Ditching Tom Starling would be my first step in improving our cohesion in attack. (In addition to retiring Whitehead.)
We looked good in 2016 on the back of Hodgo and Leilua/Rapana. Whitehead was really good that season too. 2019 was more of a team effort, with Wighton, Papalii, Bateman and CNK also immense. In both of those years our attack was driven out of dummy half.
We haven't had a dominant halves pairing for years - but we have regularly had a great forward pack which lives and dies by the quality of our 9.
Stuart is a good coach for veteran players, but he needs to get this team focussed on executing the basics next season. Especially our passing and discipline in defence from the edges to the wings.
Last edited by Seiffert82 on August 17, 2022, 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Spot on Rog
The reason we look much better in attack on that side when CHN is on the field is because he doesn't need to be coached how to run a line. He knows it intuitively. It's been a feature of his game since his debut at the panthers.
The lines he runs put defenders into conflict. They have to respect his ability to break the line, and his second phase... so what that does to a defender is put them into two minds of what to do, come in on him as a help defender, or stay out and mark their man... and often what can happen, and you see this on the plays when he runs these lines, players freeze, their feet stop, and that second or two of indecision is enough to create chances for CHN to get the ball flat, or for Savage and the outside backs to get on the outside and that's how you generate overlaps and bring the power running from someone like Timoko, who can run in between defenders and work the 3 on 2... you give Savage and Timoko/Rapana Kris/Cotric 3 on 2 situations, the combination of speed and power available is going to give you points. You just need to create those decisions decisions, because with decisions comes mistakes.
We dont coach that though. We don't really coach that structure or shape, or least based on game day, if we do, we don't coach it well. It's just clunky. I firmly believe that structure and shape comes from a lot from the back rower. He's the guy that can create the overlaps, create the time and space to straighten up and run between defenders not at them. The backrower and the use of him is what creates the conflict in edge defenders
Whitehead just doesnt have the juice anymore to be respected a line breaker, so teams are happy to slide off him and defend him 1 on 1. And Young just hasnt developed that part of his game on the edge yet. I'm sure a big part of that is he's not well coached on how to do it. I think the only reason it looks ok with CHN is because that is the part of his game that is intuitive to him.
benda wrote: ↑August 17, 2022, 9:58 am
I admired Ricky's coaching ability
Why?
I just think Stuart turned the club around since he took over.. we didnt have first graders in key positions and Furner wasnt a first grade coach either... and the rep pkayers we did, had terrible attitudes
Stuart did attract talent and we did become a solid force. He did ok up until 2019 gf in my view. I think we got by in attack through individual brilliance.
He has build a culture in the club. There is no doubt things have significantly improved.
Then covid hit and rules changed. We lost our way since.
We cannot for the life of us structure a nice try repeatedly within 80m. For us it happens once every 2 games. Top sides are doing it 3 times a game.
I hear the arguments on Wighton not being a 6, selections in other positions and without namig then all i agree with some of them.
I just worry that he may not be the right person to take things forward. Certainty not with what we are dishing up in attack anyway. Is soo far behind the 8 ball its not even funny.
None of what you said here points to good "coaching ability".
In fact, the bit I've highlighted suggests the exact opposite.
Fair enough.
Stuart was the reason we made the gf. Thats my opinion.
benda wrote: ↑August 17, 2022, 9:58 am
I admired Ricky's coaching ability
Why?
I just think Stuart turned the club around since he took over.. we didnt have first graders in key positions and Furner wasnt a first grade coach either... and the rep pkayers we did, had terrible attitudes
Stuart did attract talent and we did become a solid force. He did ok up until 2019 gf in my view. I think we got by in attack through individual brilliance.
He has build a culture in the club. There is no doubt things have significantly improved.
Then covid hit and rules changed. We lost our way since.
We cannot for the life of us structure a nice try repeatedly within 80m. For us it happens once every 2 games. Top sides are doing it 3 times a game.
I hear the arguments on Wighton not being a 6, selections in other positions and without namig then all i agree with some of them.
I just worry that he may not be the right person to take things forward. Certainty not with what we are dishing up in attack anyway. Is soo far behind the 8 ball its not even funny.
None of what you said here points to good "coaching ability".
In fact, the bit I've highlighted suggests the exact opposite.
Fair enough.
Stuart was the reason we made the gf. Thats my opinion.
The team Stuart put together made the grand final. Were they well coached? No. Did he assemble a very good team? Yes. Were they well coached? No. Would that roster have had more success with a good coach? Yes. Can you give Stuart credit for assembling that roster? Yes. Can you credit him for coaching and managing that squad well and turning them into a premiership force for more than a single one off season? No.
Does he have good “coaching ability”? Absolutely all signs point to No.
The Nickman wrote: ↑August 17, 2022, 10:21 am
Why?
I just think Stuart turned the club around since he took over.. we didnt have first graders in key positions and Furner wasnt a first grade coach either... and the rep pkayers we did, had terrible attitudes
Stuart did attract talent and we did become a solid force. He did ok up until 2019 gf in my view. I think we got by in attack through individual brilliance.
He has build a culture in the club. There is no doubt things have significantly improved.
Then covid hit and rules changed. We lost our way since.
We cannot for the life of us structure a nice try repeatedly within 80m. For us it happens once every 2 games. Top sides are doing it 3 times a game.
I hear the arguments on Wighton not being a 6, selections in other positions and without namig then all i agree with some of them.
I just worry that he may not be the right person to take things forward. Certainty not with what we are dishing up in attack anyway. Is soo far behind the 8 ball its not even funny.
None of what you said here points to good "coaching ability".
In fact, the bit I've highlighted suggests the exact opposite.
Fair enough.
Stuart was the reason we made the gf. Thats my opinion.
The team Stuart put together made the grand final. Were they well coached? No. Did he assemble a very good team? Yes. Were they well coached? No. Would that roster have had more success with a good coach? Yes. Can you give Stuart credit for assembling that roster? Yes. Can you credit him for coaching and managing that squad well and turning them into a premiership force for more than a single one off season? No.
Does he have good “coaching ability”? Absolutely all signs point to No.
benda wrote: ↑August 17, 2022, 10:35 am
I just think Stuart turned the club around since he took over.. we didnt have first graders in key positions and Furner wasnt a first grade coach either... and the rep pkayers we did, had terrible attitudes
Stuart did attract talent and we did become a solid force. He did ok up until 2019 gf in my view. I think we got by in attack through individual brilliance.
He has build a culture in the club. There is no doubt things have significantly improved.
Then covid hit and rules changed. We lost our way since.
We cannot for the life of us structure a nice try repeatedly within 80m. For us it happens once every 2 games. Top sides are doing it 3 times a game.
I hear the arguments on Wighton not being a 6, selections in other positions and without namig then all i agree with some of them.
I just worry that he may not be the right person to take things forward. Certainty not with what we are dishing up in attack anyway. Is soo far behind the 8 ball its not even funny.
None of what you said here points to good "coaching ability".
In fact, the bit I've highlighted suggests the exact opposite.
Fair enough.
Stuart was the reason we made the gf. Thats my opinion.
The team Stuart put together made the grand final. Were they well coached? No. Did he assemble a very good team? Yes. Were they well coached? No. Would that roster have had more success with a good coach? Yes. Can you give Stuart credit for assembling that roster? Yes. Can you credit him for coaching and managing that squad well and turning them into a premiership force for more than a single one off season? No.
Does he have good “coaching ability”? Absolutely all signs point to No.
Any ball to Timoko within the red zone when we have him 1 on 1 is a decent play imo actually. He's burned right through a few guys this year in exactly that situation and it's a play we should create more often.
Completely agree CHN adds a huge amount to attack on the right- it''s night and day. He can run a line, bust a tackle and offload.
Savage adds to that again simply because if he gets to the outside shoulder he's a big threat. Defenders NEED to stick at him so any ball he shovels out after accelerating a bit carries a threat. He's no great ball player yet but he grasps that and is willing at least to try it both sides.
Hooker needs to get the ball there and Fog needs to facilitate it.
Yeah that's the thing savage provides and why he's already making huge improvements to our attack... if he gets on your outside shoulder, you're cooked, he's too quick, he'll beat you for speed, which means the centre has to come in. Now that's the overlap created.
If he ever develops a cut out ball to his winger in those situations, you've got a legit certified stud attacking fullback. Because once the centre comes in, the winger usually follows leaving ours uncovered. That's just how the classic sweep play works and it's never really been available to use with CNK's limited ability to even promote the footy
Botman wrote: ↑August 17, 2022, 7:17 pm
Yeah that's the thing savage provides and why he's already making huge improvements to our attack... if he gets on your outside shoulder, you're cooked, he's too quick, he'll beat you for speed, which means the centre has to come in. Now that's the overlap created.
If he ever develops a cut out ball to his winger in those situations, you've got a legit certified stud attacking fullback. Because once the centre comes in, the winger usually follows leaving ours uncovered. That's just how the classic sweep play works and it's never really been available to use with CNK's limited ability to even promote the footy
Savage will be one of the top 3 wingers in the comp. He has a ball skills, raw speed and likes to get busy in attack. I love how he follows Papalii around the field waiting for an offload. Has is doing things already that CNK hasn't. CNK is an effort player with limited xfactor to his game.
Savage in 12 to 24 months will be an absolute weapon.
Im saying all this with the view that he isnt even first grade ready. Physically or mentally but he gets through games.
If we were to get through, by some miracle, deep in the finals .. he is likely to run outta puff.
The Nickman wrote: ↑August 17, 2022, 11:10 am
None of what you said here points to good "coaching ability".
In fact, the bit I've highlighted suggests the exact opposite.
Fair enough.
Stuart was the reason we made the gf. Thats my opinion.
The team Stuart put together made the grand final. Were they well coached? No. Did he assemble a very good team? Yes. Were they well coached? No. Would that roster have had more success with a good coach? Yes. Can you give Stuart credit for assembling that roster? Yes. Can you credit him for coaching and managing that squad well and turning them into a premiership force for more than a single one off season? No.
Does he have good “coaching ability”? Absolutely all signs point to No.
Good point.
How do we improve our attack?
Semi-competent coaching would help
Are you saying this with a view that Stuart simply cant get us to where we need to be?
Or that he is too ignorant to recognise his weaknesses and get the right support around him?
BadnMean wrote: ↑August 17, 2022, 7:08 pm
Any ball to Timoko within the red zone when we have him 1 on 1 is a decent play imo actually. He's burned right through a few guys this year in exactly that situation and it's a play we should create more often.
Completely agree CHN adds a huge amount to attack on the right- it''s night and day. He can run a line, bust a tackle and offload.
Savage adds to that again simply because if he gets to the outside shoulder he's a big threat. Defenders NEED to stick at him so any ball he shovels out after accelerating a bit carries a threat. He's no great ball player yet but he grasps that and is willing at least to try it both sides.
Hooker needs to get the ball there and Fog needs to facilitate it.
I so agree with Tomoko. He is small but powerful low centre of gravity and has the speed needed to burn players. He isnt a player like Leilua that can make stuff happen from nothing.
There is no use of him in our side unless we put him in those 1 on 1 situation with space on the sides.
Stuart was the reason we made the gf. Thats my opinion.
The team Stuart put together made the grand final. Were they well coached? No. Did he assemble a very good team? Yes. Were they well coached? No. Would that roster have had more success with a good coach? Yes. Can you give Stuart credit for assembling that roster? Yes. Can you credit him for coaching and managing that squad well and turning them into a premiership force for more than a single one off season? No.
Does he have good “coaching ability”? Absolutely all signs point to No.
Good point.
How do we improve our attack?
Semi-competent coaching would help
Are you saying this with a view that Stuart simply cant get us to where we need to be?
Or that he is too ignorant to recognise his weaknesses and get the right support around him?
BadnMean wrote: ↑August 17, 2022, 7:08 pm
Any ball to Timoko within the red zone when we have him 1 on 1 is a decent play imo actually. He's burned right through a few guys this year in exactly that situation and it's a play we should create more often.
Completely agree CHN adds a huge amount to attack on the right- it''s night and day. He can run a line, bust a tackle and offload.
Savage adds to that again simply because if he gets to the outside shoulder he's a big threat. Defenders NEED to stick at him so any ball he shovels out after accelerating a bit carries a threat. He's no great ball player yet but he grasps that and is willing at least to try it both sides.
Hooker needs to get the ball there and Fog needs to facilitate it.
I so agree with Tomoko. He is small but powerful low centre of gravity and has the speed needed to burn players. He isnt a player like Leilua that can make stuff happen from nothing.
There is no use of him in our side unless we put him in those 1 on 1 situation with space on the sides.
Yep.
Gee Leilua was a weapon though. Most destructive centre I've seen since Big Mal.
Raiders666 wrote:I'm confused....The team that made the GF and 3 prelims weren't well coached? Wowee I've heard it all now. Poor Stick haha
So you think our team is well coached?
You contradict yourself with every second post.
Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk
When did I contradict myself? Coaches have good and bad years...I believe Ricky to be a slightly above average coach I also believe a coach's voice wears thin after a while and I'd be happy for a change
Raiders666 wrote:I'm confused....The team that made the GF and 3 prelims weren't well coached? Wowee I've heard it all now. Poor Stick haha
So you think our team is well coached?
You contradict yourself with every second post.
Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk
When did I contradict myself? Coaches have good and bad years...I believe Ricky to be a slightly above average coach I also believe a coach's voice wears thin after a while and I'd be happy for a change
You've continued to make sarcastic and snide comments when players re-sign with the club... suggesting that the players love playing for Ricky, and then lament the fact that the club hasn't made any significant new signings.
You challenge posters that question Ricky's coaching but you want him replaced.
One thing I know is the majority of players love Stick...That's not a snide remark. I also love how we have blooded a whole heap of young guys. Unlike others I'm comfortable with where the club is at the moment.... Still plenty of room for improvement.
I still think we should be improving our squad from the outside however.. We lack leadership for instance I also would welcome a new coach however Rick is here for as long as he wants and I'm also comfortable with that
BadnMean wrote:Any ball to Timoko within the red zone when we have him 1 on 1 is a decent play imo actually. He's burned right through a few guys this year in exactly that situation and it's a play we should create more often.
Completely agree CHN adds a huge amount to attack on the right- it''s night and day. He can run a line, bust a tackle and offload.
Savage adds to that again simply because if he gets to the outside shoulder he's a big threat. Defenders NEED to stick at him so any ball he shovels out after accelerating a bit carries a threat. He's no great ball player yet but he grasps that and is willing at least to try it both sides.
Hooker needs to get the ball there and Fog needs to facilitate it.
Timoko definitely needs more ball. Our left hand side attack is so dominant it's actually quite remarkable that he's scored 7 tries this season.
Cotric, Kris and Young have scored 24 tries between them this year, vs Rapana, Timoko and Whitehead with 11. It's pretty obvious why there's a real problem there in attack. Fogarty definitely has a bit of work to do to overcome the limitations of his second rower.
No matter what happens in the second half here (and just FTR I still think we’ll win), the decision by Stuart to not only start with Starling over Woolford, but also to PERSIST with him for the entire half should put the final nail of the coffin of anyone trying to argue the guy has the slightest bit of coaching ability.
It’s one of the worst plays he’s made in his ridiculous coaching career to date!
I am **** FURIOUS.... How do we save our club? How do we stop this continually slide to the spoon? How does Stuart get away with this? How can you be consistently underperforming this much with not even a WHISPER of responsibility?
Someone get this to Stuart:
"Mate, you are a Raiders legend, one of the all time great players. No one is questioning your love of the club, that you bleed Green, but you are HURTING the thing you love... You don't know how to coach, you have consistently proven you don't have the answers. The club loves you too much to call you out so do the right thing, resign."
Ultima wrote: ↑August 21, 2022, 5:05 pm
I am **** FURIOUS.... How do we save our club? How do we stop this continually slide to the spoon? How does Stuart get away with this? How can you be consistently underperforming this much with not even a WHISPER of responsibility?
Someone get this to Stuart:
"Mate, you are a Raiders legend, one of the all time great players. No one is questioning your love of the club, that you bleed Green, but you are HURTING the thing you love... You don't know how to coach, you have consistently proven you don't have the answers. The club loves you too much to call you out so do the right thing, resign."
Following 5 years of Dave Furner is a good way of doing it. By comparison he still looks like a genius.
I know we are finally winning a game well and might even make the eight. But Stuart just broke even for number of games coached by Sheens, which had five grand final appearances and three wins with a minor premierships over that period...