Recruitment and retention

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Botman
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Re: Recruitment and retention

Post by Botman »

Billy Walker wrote: April 2, 2022, 8:33 pm
Botman wrote: April 2, 2022, 8:07 pm You also dont find a lot of 1m players like DCE on the market.
So that's a fairly disingenuous post... regardless of whether those contracts are good, bad or or indifferent, they've not cost us a DCE level player. That level of player was simply not available to us, or anyone on an open market.

Except in very rare circumstances those players are developed from within, they're not found on the open market because they rarely reach the open market as the club holding their contract will do what it takes financially to keep them.

The issue with our lack of a 1m DCE level player has nothing to do with anyone on this roster, it's simply down to our lack of ability to identify, recruit and develop an elite talent at that position.
So you have to take a punt and offer a kid massive overs like the Knights did when Ponga was a skinny winger with a good step at the cowboys. I would have been tempted to throw the bank at Sam Walker after a few games last year. It’s a risky play but I can’t see the alternative - we aren’t recruiting an established star to the club so I say throw massive overs for a kid and hope the hype is true
if you dont/cant find them in house... yeah, at some point you have to do what the dogs did with Burton or the Knights with Ponga and pay major overs on a kid who might change the fortunes.

But then it's not got the knights anywhere, Ponga is a disgrace half the time, and i cant say im seeing a lot of good signs for Burton on early returns. The reverse is the Cowboys and JT. Game changer. Team building isnt easy.

They say in the NFL that when you dont have a QB the search for one is all consuming, because it doesnt matter how good you are on the margins, without it, you're cooked. That's not too dissimilar to the NRL and spine play... the best teams are ALWAYS the teams who have the talent in the spine.
We have a very untalented spine right now imo
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Northern Raider
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Re: Recruitment and retention

Post by Northern Raider »

Botman wrote: April 2, 2022, 8:49 pm
Billy Walker wrote: April 2, 2022, 8:33 pm
Botman wrote: April 2, 2022, 8:07 pm You also dont find a lot of 1m players like DCE on the market.
So that's a fairly disingenuous post... regardless of whether those contracts are good, bad or or indifferent, they've not cost us a DCE level player. That level of player was simply not available to us, or anyone on an open market.

Except in very rare circumstances those players are developed from within, they're not found on the open market because they rarely reach the open market as the club holding their contract will do what it takes financially to keep them.

The issue with our lack of a 1m DCE level player has nothing to do with anyone on this roster, it's simply down to our lack of ability to identify, recruit and develop an elite talent at that position.
So you have to take a punt and offer a kid massive overs like the Knights did when Ponga was a skinny winger with a good step at the cowboys. I would have been tempted to throw the bank at Sam Walker after a few games last year. It’s a risky play but I can’t see the alternative - we aren’t recruiting an established star to the club so I say throw massive overs for a kid and hope the hype is true
if you dont/cant find them in house... yeah, at some point you have to do what the dogs did with Burton or the Knights with Ponga and pay major overs on a kid who might change the fortunes.

But then it's not got the knights anywhere, Ponga is a disgrace half the time, and i cant say im seeing a lot of good signs for Burton on early returns. The reverse is the Cowboys and JT. Game changer. Team building isnt easy.
We're also talking about very rare exceptions. The Ponga deal was 5 years ago. No real examples before or after that. Can't hang your hat on a recruitment approach that strikes gold once a decade across the entire NRL.
* The author assumes no responsibility for the topicality, correctness, completeness or quality of information provided.
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gangrenous
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Re: Recruitment and retention

Post by gangrenous »

Botman wrote:
gangrenous wrote: April 2, 2022, 8:10 pm Let me add that DCE’s contract size is less of an issue now than when he signed it.
According to reports on salary, he's the only guy whos' CONFIRMED to have his salary is tied to cap size
So he's impacting them as much now as he was when he signed the deal, from a cap perspective.

I think NRL teams understanding positional value has made his contract more manageable. But it was always manageable, they just **** around with Geoff Toovey and Trent Barrett for 7 **** years of DCE's prime. Also, they're a top heavy team who relies heavily on DCE and Tommy T, and Tommy T's hamstrings are suboptimal
Ah that’s right. Then I take it back. It’s as bad now as then. He mustn’t be only on 1M then. Wasn’t he already at that when he signed?
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Re: Recruitment and retention

Post by Botman »

Northern Raider wrote: April 2, 2022, 8:53 pm
Botman wrote: April 2, 2022, 8:49 pm
Billy Walker wrote: April 2, 2022, 8:33 pm
Botman wrote: April 2, 2022, 8:07 pm You also dont find a lot of 1m players like DCE on the market.
So that's a fairly disingenuous post... regardless of whether those contracts are good, bad or or indifferent, they've not cost us a DCE level player. That level of player was simply not available to us, or anyone on an open market.

Except in very rare circumstances those players are developed from within, they're not found on the open market because they rarely reach the open market as the club holding their contract will do what it takes financially to keep them.

The issue with our lack of a 1m DCE level player has nothing to do with anyone on this roster, it's simply down to our lack of ability to identify, recruit and develop an elite talent at that position.
So you have to take a punt and offer a kid massive overs like the Knights did when Ponga was a skinny winger with a good step at the cowboys. I would have been tempted to throw the bank at Sam Walker after a few games last year. It’s a risky play but I can’t see the alternative - we aren’t recruiting an established star to the club so I say throw massive overs for a kid and hope the hype is true
if you dont/cant find them in house... yeah, at some point you have to do what the dogs did with Burton or the Knights with Ponga and pay major overs on a kid who might change the fortunes.

But then it's not got the knights anywhere, Ponga is a disgrace half the time, and i cant say im seeing a lot of good signs for Burton on early returns. The reverse is the Cowboys and JT. Game changer. Team building isnt easy.
We're also talking about very rare exceptions. The Ponga deal was 5 years ago. No real examples before or after that. Can't hang your hat on a recruitment approach that strikes gold once a decade across the entire NRL.
Yes indeed
Its so rare. And we dont have a prayer with our circumstances.

For us, its important to develop in house. We're very unlikely to get the elite spine player who randomly finds his way on to the market. We have to find these guys in house. That's the only realistic way forward for us.
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Re: Recruitment and retention

Post by Billy Walker »

Botman wrote: April 2, 2022, 8:49 pm
Billy Walker wrote: April 2, 2022, 8:33 pm
Botman wrote: April 2, 2022, 8:07 pm You also dont find a lot of 1m players like DCE on the market.
So that's a fairly disingenuous post... regardless of whether those contracts are good, bad or or indifferent, they've not cost us a DCE level player. That level of player was simply not available to us, or anyone on an open market.

Except in very rare circumstances those players are developed from within, they're not found on the open market because they rarely reach the open market as the club holding their contract will do what it takes financially to keep them.

The issue with our lack of a 1m DCE level player has nothing to do with anyone on this roster, it's simply down to our lack of ability to identify, recruit and develop an elite talent at that position.
So you have to take a punt and offer a kid massive overs like the Knights did when Ponga was a skinny winger with a good step at the cowboys. I would have been tempted to throw the bank at Sam Walker after a few games last year. It’s a risky play but I can’t see the alternative - we aren’t recruiting an established star to the club so I say throw massive overs for a kid and hope the hype is true
if you dont/cant find them in house... yeah, at some point you have to do what the dogs did with Burton or the Knights with Ponga and pay major overs on a kid who might change the fortunes.

But then it's not got the knights anywhere, Ponga is a disgrace half the time, and i cant say im seeing a lot of good signs for Burton on early returns. The reverse is the Cowboys and JT. Game changer. Team building isnt easy.
It’s not easy that’s for certain. What is your take on the whole legacy/respect thing? I get the Bulldogs were “the family club” in the 80’s and you don’t build good culture if there isn’t trust, but to me it’s a business. All power to players getting the best out of the game they can for themselves but it needs to go both ways. I think we need to give players a respectful great environment year to year, but we need to lose this notion of owning people anything. Good servants of the club should be thanked in ways that don’t involve long contracts or coaching and back of house roles they are best suited to do. You like your NFL - I imagine clubs would be more ruthless and hard nosed about roster talent? Are we too good hearted and generous when it comes to much loved players that have served us well?
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Re: Recruitment and retention

Post by Billy Walker »

Botman wrote: April 2, 2022, 8:57 pm
Northern Raider wrote: April 2, 2022, 8:53 pm
Botman wrote: April 2, 2022, 8:49 pm
Billy Walker wrote: April 2, 2022, 8:33 pm
Botman wrote: April 2, 2022, 8:07 pm You also dont find a lot of 1m players like DCE on the market.
So that's a fairly disingenuous post... regardless of whether those contracts are good, bad or or indifferent, they've not cost us a DCE level player. That level of player was simply not available to us, or anyone on an open market.

Except in very rare circumstances those players are developed from within, they're not found on the open market because they rarely reach the open market as the club holding their contract will do what it takes financially to keep them.

The issue with our lack of a 1m DCE level player has nothing to do with anyone on this roster, it's simply down to our lack of ability to identify, recruit and develop an elite talent at that position.
So you have to take a punt and offer a kid massive overs like the Knights did when Ponga was a skinny winger with a good step at the cowboys. I would have been tempted to throw the bank at Sam Walker after a few games last year. It’s a risky play but I can’t see the alternative - we aren’t recruiting an established star to the club so I say throw massive overs for a kid and hope the hype is true
if you dont/cant find them in house... yeah, at some point you have to do what the dogs did with Burton or the Knights with Ponga and pay major overs on a kid who might change the fortunes.

But then it's not got the knights anywhere, Ponga is a disgrace half the time, and i cant say im seeing a lot of good signs for Burton on early returns. The reverse is the Cowboys and JT. Game changer. Team building isnt easy.
We're also talking about very rare exceptions. The Ponga deal was 5 years ago. No real examples before or after that. Can't hang your hat on a recruitment approach that strikes gold once a decade across the entire NRL.
Yes indeed
Its so rare. And we dont have a prayer with our circumstances.

For us, its important to develop in house. We're very unlikely to get the elite spine player who randomly finds his way on to the market. We have to find these guys in house. That's the only realistic way forward for us.
I genuinely believe there is a very good chance we have a potential star spine player in our midst who currently can’t get a game. It’s mind blowing.
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Re: Recruitment and retention

Post by Northern Raider »

Billy Walker wrote: April 2, 2022, 9:02 pm
Botman wrote: April 2, 2022, 8:57 pm
Northern Raider wrote: April 2, 2022, 8:53 pm
Botman wrote: April 2, 2022, 8:49 pm
Billy Walker wrote: April 2, 2022, 8:33 pm

So you have to take a punt and offer a kid massive overs like the Knights did when Ponga was a skinny winger with a good step at the cowboys. I would have been tempted to throw the bank at Sam Walker after a few games last year. It’s a risky play but I can’t see the alternative - we aren’t recruiting an established star to the club so I say throw massive overs for a kid and hope the hype is true
if you dont/cant find them in house... yeah, at some point you have to do what the dogs did with Burton or the Knights with Ponga and pay major overs on a kid who might change the fortunes.

But then it's not got the knights anywhere, Ponga is a disgrace half the time, and i cant say im seeing a lot of good signs for Burton on early returns. The reverse is the Cowboys and JT. Game changer. Team building isnt easy.
We're also talking about very rare exceptions. The Ponga deal was 5 years ago. No real examples before or after that. Can't hang your hat on a recruitment approach that strikes gold once a decade across the entire NRL.
Yes indeed
Its so rare. And we dont have a prayer with our circumstances.

For us, its important to develop in house. We're very unlikely to get the elite spine player who randomly finds his way on to the market. We have to find these guys in house. That's the only realistic way forward for us.
I genuinely believe there is a very good chance we have a potential star spine player in our midst who currently can’t get a game. It’s mind blowing.
Sam Williams has had plenty of chances. Time to move on.
* The author assumes no responsibility for the topicality, correctness, completeness or quality of information provided.
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Re: Recruitment and retention

Post by Billy Walker »

Northern Raider wrote: April 2, 2022, 9:06 pm
Billy Walker wrote: April 2, 2022, 9:02 pm
Botman wrote: April 2, 2022, 8:57 pm
Northern Raider wrote: April 2, 2022, 8:53 pm
Botman wrote: April 2, 2022, 8:49 pm

if you dont/cant find them in house... yeah, at some point you have to do what the dogs did with Burton or the Knights with Ponga and pay major overs on a kid who might change the fortunes.

But then it's not got the knights anywhere, Ponga is a disgrace half the time, and i cant say im seeing a lot of good signs for Burton on early returns. The reverse is the Cowboys and JT. Game changer. Team building isnt easy.
We're also talking about very rare exceptions. The Ponga deal was 5 years ago. No real examples before or after that. Can't hang your hat on a recruitment approach that strikes gold once a decade across the entire NRL.
Yes indeed
Its so rare. And we dont have a prayer with our circumstances.

For us, its important to develop in house. We're very unlikely to get the elite spine player who randomly finds his way on to the market. We have to find these guys in house. That's the only realistic way forward for us.
I genuinely believe there is a very good chance we have a potential star spine player in our midst who currently can’t get a game. It’s mind blowing.
Sam Williams has had plenty of chances. Time to move on.
Give him time NR - give him time :lol:
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Re: Recruitment and retention

Post by Hong Kong Raider »

Botman wrote: April 2, 2022, 8:49 pm
Billy Walker wrote: April 2, 2022, 8:33 pm
Botman wrote: April 2, 2022, 8:07 pm You also dont find a lot of 1m players like DCE on the market.
So that's a fairly disingenuous post... regardless of whether those contracts are good, bad or or indifferent, they've not cost us a DCE level player. That level of player was simply not available to us, or anyone on an open market.

Except in very rare circumstances those players are developed from within, they're not found on the open market because they rarely reach the open market as the club holding their contract will do what it takes financially to keep them.

The issue with our lack of a 1m DCE level player has nothing to do with anyone on this roster, it's simply down to our lack of ability to identify, recruit and develop an elite talent at that position.
So you have to take a punt and offer a kid massive overs like the Knights did when Ponga was a skinny winger with a good step at the cowboys. I would have been tempted to throw the bank at Sam Walker after a few games last year. It’s a risky play but I can’t see the alternative - we aren’t recruiting an established star to the club so I say throw massive overs for a kid and hope the hype is true
if you dont/cant find them in house... yeah, at some point you have to do what the dogs did with Burton or the Knights with Ponga and pay major overs on a kid who might change the fortunes.

But then it's not got the knights anywhere, Ponga is a disgrace half the time, and i cant say im seeing a lot of good signs for Burton on early returns. The reverse is the Cowboys and JT. Game changer. Team building isnt easy.

They say in the NFL that when you dont have a QB the search for one is all consuming, because it doesnt matter how good you are on the margins, without it, you're cooked. That's not too dissimilar to the NRL and spine play... the best teams are ALWAYS the teams who have the talent in the spine.
We have a very untalented spine right now imo
Bot, you are right. We have one of the worst spines ATM, bottom 6. Our fullback doesn't make breaks from kick returns, or even half breaks, so the defence is always structured which makes it difficult for us in the next 5 tackles. That's something that Savage may change. Look at the top teams - with Papenhuyzen, Edwards, Latrell, Turbo, Tedesco, even Gutherson, they are creating half breaks or full breaks. Gutherson's run last week v Melbourne from a kick return led to Mitchell Moses being in position for a field goal.

Jack is playing well, but you need to have more than one avenue of attack.

Starling's forward passes are a concern, as well as what he does in the opposition 20 m zone.

Our halfback was non existent today but you will get that from a young half. But he was playing behind a well beaten forward pack.

Teams do take on recruitment risks on spine positions - Penrith went for Api when he was at Manly and it changed their game in 2020. He was a known player though. Latrell joined Souths in 2020 but he was a known player, but not a renowned fullback. And earlier who would have thought Mitchell Moses would be a successful half at Parra after being mediocre at the Tigers.

We will have some of Hodgson's money to spend, but will we spend it wisely?
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Botman
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Re: Recruitment and retention

Post by Botman »

Billy Walker wrote: April 2, 2022, 8:59 pm
Botman wrote: April 2, 2022, 8:49 pm
Billy Walker wrote: April 2, 2022, 8:33 pm
Botman wrote: April 2, 2022, 8:07 pm You also dont find a lot of 1m players like DCE on the market.
So that's a fairly disingenuous post... regardless of whether those contracts are good, bad or or indifferent, they've not cost us a DCE level player. That level of player was simply not available to us, or anyone on an open market.

Except in very rare circumstances those players are developed from within, they're not found on the open market because they rarely reach the open market as the club holding their contract will do what it takes financially to keep them.

The issue with our lack of a 1m DCE level player has nothing to do with anyone on this roster, it's simply down to our lack of ability to identify, recruit and develop an elite talent at that position.
So you have to take a punt and offer a kid massive overs like the Knights did when Ponga was a skinny winger with a good step at the cowboys. I would have been tempted to throw the bank at Sam Walker after a few games last year. It’s a risky play but I can’t see the alternative - we aren’t recruiting an established star to the club so I say throw massive overs for a kid and hope the hype is true
if you dont/cant find them in house... yeah, at some point you have to do what the dogs did with Burton or the Knights with Ponga and pay major overs on a kid who might change the fortunes.

But then it's not got the knights anywhere, Ponga is a disgrace half the time, and i cant say im seeing a lot of good signs for Burton on early returns. The reverse is the Cowboys and JT. Game changer. Team building isnt easy.
It’s not easy that’s for certain. What is your take on the whole legacy/respect thing? I get the Bulldogs were “the family club” in the 80’s and you don’t build good culture if there isn’t trust, but to me it’s a business. All power to players getting the best out of the game they can for themselves but it needs to go both ways. I think we need to give players a respectful great environment year to year, but we need to lose this notion of owning people anything. Good servants of the club should be thanked in ways that don’t involve long contracts or coaching and back of house roles they are best suited to do. You like your NFL - I imagine clubs would be more ruthless and hard nosed about roster talent? Are we too good hearted and generous when it comes to much loved players that have served us well?
My take is Stuart is who is he. He spoke openly and honestly about his time at the roosters, he said he put too much faith and trust into players who had "done the job for him" prior and held on to them too long
He did that at the sharks too. Parra doesnt count, he wasnt there long enough to bother. And here we are again'

He's evolved in some ways but he's still a veterans players coach. He wants to put trust into guys who have done the job.
Arm chair psychologist, and ive said this before... i think Stuart felt like the Raiders gave up on him too early, felt like he still had more to give, and they turned the page, he (and clyde) went to the dogs and whatever it was it was, but he felt like they didnt treat him with the proper deference, and so here we are. He's not ruthless enough because he feels he was on the wrong side of ruthlessness. And he didnt like it.

That's total speculation though. But that's been my take for a long time. He's repeating his mistakes from the roosters because he is who he is.
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Re: Recruitment and retention

Post by Billy Walker »

Botman wrote: April 2, 2022, 9:14 pm
Billy Walker wrote: April 2, 2022, 8:59 pm
Botman wrote: April 2, 2022, 8:49 pm
Billy Walker wrote: April 2, 2022, 8:33 pm
Botman wrote: April 2, 2022, 8:07 pm You also dont find a lot of 1m players like DCE on the market.
So that's a fairly disingenuous post... regardless of whether those contracts are good, bad or or indifferent, they've not cost us a DCE level player. That level of player was simply not available to us, or anyone on an open market.

Except in very rare circumstances those players are developed from within, they're not found on the open market because they rarely reach the open market as the club holding their contract will do what it takes financially to keep them.

The issue with our lack of a 1m DCE level player has nothing to do with anyone on this roster, it's simply down to our lack of ability to identify, recruit and develop an elite talent at that position.
So you have to take a punt and offer a kid massive overs like the Knights did when Ponga was a skinny winger with a good step at the cowboys. I would have been tempted to throw the bank at Sam Walker after a few games last year. It’s a risky play but I can’t see the alternative - we aren’t recruiting an established star to the club so I say throw massive overs for a kid and hope the hype is true
if you dont/cant find them in house... yeah, at some point you have to do what the dogs did with Burton or the Knights with Ponga and pay major overs on a kid who might change the fortunes.

But then it's not got the knights anywhere, Ponga is a disgrace half the time, and i cant say im seeing a lot of good signs for Burton on early returns. The reverse is the Cowboys and JT. Game changer. Team building isnt easy.
It’s not easy that’s for certain. What is your take on the whole legacy/respect thing? I get the Bulldogs were “the family club” in the 80’s and you don’t build good culture if there isn’t trust, but to me it’s a business. All power to players getting the best out of the game they can for themselves but it needs to go both ways. I think we need to give players a respectful great environment year to year, but we need to lose this notion of owning people anything. Good servants of the club should be thanked in ways that don’t involve long contracts or coaching and back of house roles they are best suited to do. You like your NFL - I imagine clubs would be more ruthless and hard nosed about roster talent? Are we too good hearted and generous when it comes to much loved players that have served us well?
My take is Stuart is who is he. He spoke openly and honestly about his time at the roosters, he said he put too much faith and trust into players who had "done the job for him" prior and held on to them too long
He did that at the sharks too. Parra doesnt count, he wasnt there long enough to bother. And here we are again'

He's evolved in some ways but he's still a veterans players coach. He wants to put trust into guys who have done the job.
Arm chair psychologist, and ive said this before... i think Stuart felt like the Raiders gave up on him too early, felt like he still had more to give, and they turned the page, he (and clyde) went to the dogs and whatever it was it was, but he felt like they didnt treat him with the proper deference, and so here we are. He's not ruthless enough because he feels he was on the wrong side of ruthlessness. And he didnt like it.

That's total speculation though. But that's been my take for a long time. He's repeating his mistakes from the roosters because he is who he is.
I think that’s a very accurate assessment. I also think it’s a big concern for a long time because it doesn’t sound a recipe for success or something that is quickly resolved when the reigns are handed over to someone else.
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papabear
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Re: Recruitment and retention

Post by papabear »

With the form wighton is in.

I think a spine of:-
1 savage
6 - wighton
7 - fogarty
9 - starling
is quite a dangerous well balanced spine.

reminds me a bit of the chooks spine in the early 2000s of
1 - mini
6 - fittler
7 - someone
9 - wing
obviously not as accomplished at all and a gulf of talent, but the same sort of mix and with a bit of improvement who knows.
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Re: Recruitment and retention

Post by BadnMean »

papabear wrote: April 4, 2022, 9:35 am With the form wighton is in.

I think a spine of:-
1 savage
6 - wighton
7 - fogarty
9 - starling
is quite a dangerous well balanced spine.

reminds me a bit of the chooks spine in the early 2000s of
1 - mini
6 - fittler
7 - someone
9 - wing
obviously not as accomplished at all and a gulf of talent, but the same sort of mix and with a bit of improvement who knows.
That's the spine some of us were advocating for pre season. Really unfortunate to lose Fogarty for the first half of the season.
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Re: Recruitment and retention

Post by Billy Walker »

If CNK was to go on the open market right now I’d suspect he would have no problems finding another club. But I’d been keen for views on which clubs would be taking him as a starting fullback and which clubs might be looking at him as a back up. I’d say there are a number of clubs that wouldn’t be slightly interested.

I know this seems harsh and I agree he is all heart and gives everything, but I think if people are honest about where he sits in the game it highlights one of many issues we have with players who are locked in and not up to it.
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Re: Recruitment and retention

Post by GreenMachine »

I have no problem with CNK’s attitude in matches. He always puts in regardless of whether he’s having a good game or not.

I’d love to see him given a go at centre with Savage the fullback.

I’d also like to see Mooney and Trevilyan in the team at 13 and 9 respectively.

For me, 2022 NEEDS to be about getting these blokes playing first grade together for 15 odd games… it won’t answer all our questions but at the very least allow us to kick the tyres on our youngsters.

No point playing grind ball with the 2019 Cadbury favourites…it’s asking for trouble longer term.

At this very junction, Ricky is drifting behind the wheel and if he isn’t careful (and allows blind ambition to take over) we’ll wreck our chances for 2023 too.
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Re: Recruitment and retention

Post by Billy Walker »

GreenMachine wrote: April 4, 2022, 5:39 pm I have no problem with CNK’s attitude in matches. He always puts in regardless of whether he’s having a good game or not.

I’d love to see him given a go at centre with Savage the fullback.

I’d also like to see Mooney and Trevilyan in the team at 13 and 9 respectively.

For me, 2022 NEEDS to be about getting these blokes playing first grade together for 15 odd games… it won’t answer all our questions but at the very least allow us to kick the tyres on our youngsters.

No point playing grind ball with the 2019 Cadbury favourites…it’s asking for trouble longer term.

At this very junction, Ricky is drifting behind the wheel and if he isn’t careful (and allows blind ambition to take over) we’ll wreck our chances for 2023 too.
So we are trying to turn CNK into a centre - again if he is on the open market, what clubs are jumping at the chance to throw him a 3 or 4 jumper and where are they tracking to end the season?
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Re: Recruitment and retention

Post by GreenMachine »

Billy Walker wrote: April 4, 2022, 5:42 pm
GreenMachine wrote: April 4, 2022, 5:39 pm I have no problem with CNK’s attitude in matches. He always puts in regardless of whether he’s having a good game or not.

I’d love to see him given a go at centre with Savage the fullback.

I’d also like to see Mooney and Trevilyan in the team at 13 and 9 respectively.

For me, 2022 NEEDS to be about getting these blokes playing first grade together for 15 odd games… it won’t answer all our questions but at the very least allow us to kick the tyres on our youngsters.

No point playing grind ball with the 2019 Cadbury favourites…it’s asking for trouble longer term.

At this very junction, Ricky is drifting behind the wheel and if he isn’t careful (and allows blind ambition to take over) we’ll wreck our chances for 2023 too.
So we are trying to turn CNK into a centre - again if he is on the open market, what clubs are jumping at the chance to throw him a 3 or 4 jumper and where are they tracking to end the season?
Not saying it is ideal.
Ideal would have been HSS not injured.
He’s on our books and unless he can be cleared completely I’d kick the tyres on his capability at centre.
At fullback, he hinders our insipid attack. He’s not the only culprit though.
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Re: Recruitment and retention

Post by Billy Walker »

GreenMachine wrote: April 4, 2022, 5:51 pm
Billy Walker wrote: April 4, 2022, 5:42 pm
GreenMachine wrote: April 4, 2022, 5:39 pm I have no problem with CNK’s attitude in matches. He always puts in regardless of whether he’s having a good game or not.

I’d love to see him given a go at centre with Savage the fullback.

I’d also like to see Mooney and Trevilyan in the team at 13 and 9 respectively.

For me, 2022 NEEDS to be about getting these blokes playing first grade together for 15 odd games… it won’t answer all our questions but at the very least allow us to kick the tyres on our youngsters.

No point playing grind ball with the 2019 Cadbury favourites…it’s asking for trouble longer term.

At this very junction, Ricky is drifting behind the wheel and if he isn’t careful (and allows blind ambition to take over) we’ll wreck our chances for 2023 too.
So we are trying to turn CNK into a centre - again if he is on the open market, what clubs are jumping at the chance to throw him a 3 or 4 jumper and where are they tracking to end the season?
Not saying it is ideal.
Ideal would have been HSS not injured.
He’s on our books and unless he can be cleared completely I’d kick the tyres on his capability at centre.
At fullback, he hinders our insipid attack. He’s not the only culprit though.
Yep - totally see where you are coming from and who knows maybe he may turn out to be an elite centre. My feel is he won’t be. And we will have moved a 60-70% quality fullback to be a so so centre when we would be better off making a really tough call on a good guy so we can find the 90% quality talent we need.
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Re: Recruitment and retention

Post by Botman »

He’s played centre for his country and acquitted himself rather well
His game, IMO, actually lends itself more towards a centre than fullback. Is he going to be a star? No but there is no reason to think he can’t immediately be one of the better defensive centres in the game, and his hard nosed style could help straighten up the attack
You’ll lose some opportunities with his lack of passing, but he also has a handy second phase game at times that could help offset it.

You’d at least have to give it a whirl before moving on. I quite like HSS and Timoko
And I know we have some kids with a lot of wraps, but it’s not as if those guys are so good and established that it’s not worth taking a look
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Re: Recruitment and retention

Post by gerg »

Or slap a number 14 on his jersey and you have a utility that can play any position in the backline, and also coverage for Savage.
Shoving it in your face since 2017
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Re: Recruitment and retention

Post by Billy Walker »

Yep - hope he makes a great centre or 14. But if he doesn’t I hope we have the ruthless edge not to persist trying to manufacture something that might not be there. Let’s give it a crack and see how he goes but let’s do it knowing we don’t owe him and it needs to work for us!
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Re: Recruitment and retention

Post by Pella »

Spine this, spine that, must all be chiropractors. We made the GF with an ordinary spine, but actually played with a bit of grit in defence and had (two, maybe three including cotric) dangerous backs that got reasonably good ball and didn't need a lot of space to work (bj especially, should have kept him).

Play with shape, give the backs early ball so they actually have a chance to do what they're paid for and put a move on to beat their man, instead of playing so flat trying to put them through holes all the time. Playing so close to the line is where a lot of our errors come from and puts massive pressure on our halves to try and single handedly create something. It should be a simple game - give it to the big, fast(?) lads early on your attacking plays and let them do their thing.

Coaching is more an issue than personnel for mine.
Last edited by Pella on April 4, 2022, 9:09 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Recruitment and retention

Post by ALX22 »

Ricky needs to back his younger players more.
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Re: Recruitment and retention

Post by Billy Walker »

ALX22 wrote: April 4, 2022, 11:09 pm Ricky needs to back his younger players more.
Yes and no. Yes he needs to give them a chance to see what they have got. He also needs to try guys like Adam Elliot to see if they bring anything. But if the answer comes back that they don’t have it then the blind faith in them needs to stop. He needs to set a much higher bar and be prepared to ruthlessly cut guys that clearly aren’t going to reach it.

I’d suggest he isn’t backing Savage enough but is possibly backing Guler and CNK too much.
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Re: Recruitment and retention

Post by Northern Raider »

Billy Walker wrote: April 5, 2022, 6:03 am
ALX22 wrote: April 4, 2022, 11:09 pm Ricky needs to back his younger players more.
Yes and no. Yes he needs to give them a chance to see what they have got. He also needs to try guys like Adam Elliot to see if they bring anything. But if the answer comes back that they don’t have it then the blind faith in them needs to stop. He needs to set a much higher bar and be prepared to ruthlessly cut guys that clearly aren’t going to reach it.

I’d suggest he isn’t backing Savage enough but is possibly backing Guler and CNK too much.
That's a fair summary. He's brought in Elliott so needs to see how he goes. Turns out he's as big a plodder for us as he was for Dogs. We've seen it now so no need to persist, hoping he becomes something he isn't.

CNK is at least 18 months removed from high quality fullback play. Time to change there and test the next gen. Savage has 1 start at fullback in the NRal and was MOTM. What more do you need?

Guler hasn't progressed after 3 seasons in 1st grade. Need to accept his ceiling is very low and have to give somebody else a chance. It's not like we lack experience in the pack right now. Surely there's room for one of the young guys to be tested.
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Re: Recruitment and retention

Post by BadnMean »

GreenMachine wrote: April 4, 2022, 5:51 pm
Billy Walker wrote: April 4, 2022, 5:42 pm

So we are trying to turn CNK into a centre - again if he is on the open market, what clubs are jumping at the chance to throw him a 3 or 4 jumper and where are they tracking to end the season?
Not saying it is ideal.
Ideal would have been HSS not injured.
He’s on our books and unless he can be cleared completely I’d kick the tyres on his capability at centre.
At fullback, he hinders our insipid attack. He’s not the only culprit though.
Theoretically it strengthens FB if Savage does well and centre, where CNK may be more reliable than Semi, who is clearly still learning the game and may be better off doing so in reggies for a while. CNK would probably defend better there.
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Re: Recruitment and retention

Post by Billy Walker »

BadnMean wrote: April 5, 2022, 6:39 am
GreenMachine wrote: April 4, 2022, 5:51 pm
Billy Walker wrote: April 4, 2022, 5:42 pm

So we are trying to turn CNK into a centre - again if he is on the open market, what clubs are jumping at the chance to throw him a 3 or 4 jumper and where are they tracking to end the season?
Not saying it is ideal.
Ideal would have been HSS not injured.
He’s on our books and unless he can be cleared completely I’d kick the tyres on his capability at centre.
At fullback, he hinders our insipid attack. He’s not the only culprit though.
Theoretically it strengthens FB if Savage does well and centre, where CNK may be more reliable than Semi, who is clearly still learning the game and may be better off doing so in reggies for a while. CNK would probably defend better there.
If CNK turns out to be a high quality centre then happy days. But if he turns out to just be a serviceable centre then that’s not good enough and we need to cut him. I think Semi is improving and has physical attributes to suggest he is worth persisting with a little longer. But put a use by date on him as well. If he is not on a trajectory to top tier by later this season then perhaps time to ship him out as well.

We aren’t obliged to find a place for mediocre players, we need to be more ruthless. I don’t think CNK will be a horrible centre but I also don’t think he’s big enough to run over anyone, quick enough to smoke anymore or creative enough to set up his winger. Not a good starting point.
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Re: Recruitment and retention

Post by GreenMachine »

Billy Walker wrote: April 5, 2022, 6:57 am
BadnMean wrote: April 5, 2022, 6:39 am
GreenMachine wrote: April 4, 2022, 5:51 pm
Billy Walker wrote: April 4, 2022, 5:42 pm

So we are trying to turn CNK into a centre - again if he is on the open market, what clubs are jumping at the chance to throw him a 3 or 4 jumper and where are they tracking to end the season?
Not saying it is ideal.
Ideal would have been HSS not injured.
He’s on our books and unless he can be cleared completely I’d kick the tyres on his capability at centre.
At fullback, he hinders our insipid attack. He’s not the only culprit though.
Theoretically it strengthens FB if Savage does well and centre, where CNK may be more reliable than Semi, who is clearly still learning the game and may be better off doing so in reggies for a while. CNK would probably defend better there.
If CNK turns out to be a high quality centre then happy days. But if he turns out to just be a serviceable centre then that’s not good enough and we need to cut him. I think Semi is improving and has physical attributes to suggest he is worth persisting with a little longer. But put a use by date on him as well. If he is not on a trajectory to top tier by later this season then perhaps time to ship him out as well.

We aren’t obliged to find a place for mediocre players, we need to be more ruthless. I don’t think CNK will be a horrible centre but I also don’t think he’s big enough to run over anyone, quick enough to smoke anymore or creative enough to set up his winger. Not a good starting point.
I’ll be the first to admit that I went in two footed on Semi. He does possess qualities worth persisting with. The only question I have is whether it’s at centre.
Notwithstanding nobody is really bashing the door down for that centre spot atm…

I won’t be surprised if Ricky names Croker this week in Semi’s spot. It would be typical Ricky.
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Re: Recruitment and retention

Post by BadnMean »

Billy Walker wrote: April 5, 2022, 6:57 am

If CNK turns out to be a high quality centre then happy days. But if he turns out to just be a serviceable centre then that’s not good enough and we need to cut him. I think Semi is improving and has physical attributes to suggest he is worth persisting with a little longer. But put a use by date on him as well. If he is not on a trajectory to top tier by later this season then perhaps time to ship him out as well.

We aren’t obliged to find a place for mediocre players, we need to be more ruthless. I don’t think CNK will be a horrible centre but I also don’t think he’s big enough to run over anyone, quick enough to smoke anymore or creative enough to set up his winger. Not a good starting point.
I agree with you there, but it's simply getting value out of CNK while we can - in an injury situation as we are and with Semi lacking some polish to say the least.

Agree that Semi might have a higher ceiling. But if we want a lock down defensive centre who just runs hard and straight then CNK can be that, perhaps.

Worth noting that HSS will be the 1st choice right centre going forward in my eyes, so CNK is a stop gap there for a year. During that year we see how far Semi can improve his game in reggies and what Savage has at FB.

After that, who knows.
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Re: Recruitment and retention

Post by BadnMean »

GreenMachine wrote: April 5, 2022, 8:18 am
I’ll be the first to admit that I went in two footed on Semi. He does possess qualities worth persisting with. The only question I have is whether it’s at centre.
Notwithstanding nobody is really bashing the door down for that centre spot atm…

I won’t be surprised if Ricky names Croker this week in Semi’s spot. It would be typical Ricky.
Feed us Semi until we are begging for Croker back, cruel 5d chess indeed :roflmao

Semi has some good moments in him, possible FGer- perhaps.

I just think FG is a hard place to learn, it's results oriented and he can really be targeted. There's no rush on him and he may learn just as much in reggies at this stage of his career. He's late to rugby league so not like he's well past reggies levels of awareness and tactics or gamesense.

We are two injuries deep at centre (if you include Croker) so sometimes that's what you get - a player like Semi who is rough but with some promise. If we are just having a development year then sure, leave him to play and see where the curve takes him.
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Re: Recruitment and retention

Post by Billy Walker »

It’s not just Semi or CNK. I’d say we have 3 players (Jack, Papa and Tarps) that are at the elite first grade level. We have three more players (Whitehead, Raps and Cotric) that have been elite and are now not there due to age, form, injury or whatever. We have some talent like Timoko and maybe Starling and Schneider that are at the right level of trajectory you’d hope for where they are in their careers.

The rest are not hitting the mark. Some like Young and Hors are closer than others like Guler. Either way there needs to be a firmer standard set about what the expectations and performance levels for each position is and whether it’s a case of not being able to get back to previous form levels or just never being good enough to get there we need to not persist with underperforming players for too long.
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Re: Recruitment and retention

Post by Roger Kenworthy »

Billy Walker wrote: April 5, 2022, 9:20 am It’s not just Semi or CNK. I’d say we have 3 players (Jack, Papa and Tarps) that are at the elite first grade level. We have three more players (Whitehead, Raps and Cotric) that have been elite and are now not there due to age, form, injury or whatever. We have some talent like Timoko and maybe Starling and Schneider that are at the right level of trajectory you’d hope for where they are in their careers.

The rest are not hitting the mark. Some like Young and Hors are closer than others like Guler. Either way there needs to be a firmer standard set about what the expectations and performance levels for each position is and whether it’s a case of not being able to get back to previous form levels or just never being good enough to get there we need to not persist with underperforming players for too long.
I personally have Young being miles off the mark. He stunts our attack so frequently, it's hard to get any continuity down our left edge with him running around like a headless chook whether he is in possession or not.
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Re: Recruitment and retention

Post by Botman »

The Young and CNK problems are quickly becoming my new era McCrone-Buttriss...
It's a new version of the same thing

Buttriss and McCrone were not good players, and how bad they were and how that impacted our ability to be successful was not even fully appreciated until the very end of that run.

Young and CNK aren't bad players, i think they're both good players who can positively contribute to a team
But they are being played in the wrong positions and the impact of their limitations due to being played out of position hurts this team so much more than a lot of people seem to understand.
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Re: Recruitment and retention

Post by kiwi raider »

You could argue young stunts our attack and at times that's probably fair, but the complete lack of any ball playing ability from our spine(including wighton) is a far bigger problem.

We simply have no creativity.

As bad as it feels to say considering it seems to be a style that is dated and no longer anywhere near as effective, when you look at the 17 named each week our best hope is probably to play the physical type of football and hope the likes of papalii, Tapine and wighton can run over the top of teams.

If we want to change that style then our only hope is to add some more speed to the side, savage is the obvious one but I reckon some extra leg speed in the pack from the likes of Mooney and possibly rushton(haven't seen enough of him) could definitely help too
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Re: Recruitment and retention

Post by BJ »

Some good points guys. We’ve long struggled without having a player who can pass with timing. I don’t expect Cliff Lyons, Ricky, Thurston or Cronk level passing.

But we don’t seem to have anyone who can go to the line and put a person through with a short pass, throw a good long ball or turn the ball back on the inside into space.

Even McCrone could engage the line and put Papa or Blake Ferguson into space with a short pass. Albeit off the head of the player half the time.

But I think McCrone ranked about 4th on pass try or line break assists a couple years running. Again thanks to players like Papa.
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