The Cricket Thread

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Re: The Cricket Thread

Post by MrPosh »

Enjoyed that.
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Re: The Cricket Thread

Post by Rick »

Starc is copping it and rightly so but Jeeze Lyon has had an absolutely rubbish series!

He has added more with the bat then he has with the ball....


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Re: The Cricket Thread

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That's a reflection of Starc tbh

He's bowled his entire career out of a left armers footmarks. Starc bowled pies so didn't bowl as much

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Re: The Cricket Thread

Post by -PJ- »

That was terrible.

Paine should hand in his double pluggers, esky and disappear back into the Tassie wilderness..

Starc needs to go, keep him around for short form cricket.

Warner
Pucovski
Labu (c)
Smith
Head
Green
Carey
Cummins
Pattinson
Lyon
Hazlewood.

Next time around.

Very underwhelming series from AUS..
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Re: The Cricket Thread

Post by bonehead »

MrPosh wrote:Enjoyed that.
ban him GE

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Re: The Cricket Thread

Post by -PJ- »

Second that !!
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Re: The Cricket Thread

Post by julian87 »

Rick wrote: January 19, 2021, 7:34 pm Starc is copping it and rightly so but Jeeze Lyon has had an absolutely rubbish series!

He has added more with the bat then he has with the ball....


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It looks horrible on paper. But he bowled pretty well for the most part on a few wickets that didn’t deteriorate against the best versus spin batting line up in the world.

He created several chances on the day fives that didn’t go to hand or were missed opportunities that imo would have probably turned the game.
well, I guess you could say that I'm buy curious.
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Re: The Cricket Thread

Post by julian87 »

-PJ- wrote: January 20, 2021, 6:17 am That was terrible.

Paine should hand in his double pluggers, esky and disappear back into the Tassie wilderness..

Starc needs to go, keep him around for short form cricket.

Warner
Pucovski
Labu (c)
Smith
Head
Green
Carey
Cummins
Pattinson
Lyon
Hazlewood.

Next time around.

Very underwhelming series from AUS..
Paine’s test record is as good as Carey’s first class record and was our 3rd best bat this series. Deserves to retain his spot 100% imo.

I don’t mind your 11, but if that’s the 11 Head needs to be captain and Pattinson bats 8. Significantly better bat than Cummins. I do agree with Pattinson in for Starc. If we move on from Paine I think Head needs to be given the opportunity to bat 5 and captain for 10-15 tests as he is a very, very good tactical skipper and imo has been better with the bat than a few others chosen ahead of him.
well, I guess you could say that I'm buy curious.
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Re: The Cricket Thread

Post by julian87 »

Just on T20s.

With the World Cup around the corner the selectors have some make or break decisions coming up. If the all rounder is to bat #7 it has to be Dan Christian, absolutely no questions asked. Marsh keeps breaking down and Stoinis is nothing but an opening bat (cost us the 50 over World Cup). T20 roles are very specific and you can’t just plonk your 7th best bat at 7 if they’re not suited to it.

You could suggest Agar but he’s not good enough to bat 7. If you play 2 spinners you probably need Stoinis to open with either Warner or Finch at 3 and Christian at 7 so you still have 4 (of sorts) seam options.
well, I guess you could say that I'm buy curious.
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Re: The Cricket Thread

Post by Northern Raider »

-TW- wrote: January 19, 2021, 8:07 pm That's a reflection of Starc tbh

He's bowled his entire career out of a left armers footmarks. Starc bowled pies so didn't bowl as much

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Starc bowled round the wicket way too often. Particularly in Sydney. He does this when he's not swinging the ball. Left arm over to the right hander is a good angle when you can consistently land on that off stump line. The problem is the small margin for error. Slightly off target in your landing area becomes well off target when it reaches the batsman. Starc doesn't have the consistency to make it work, or doesn't give it enough of a chance.

It's like he's trying to hard to take wickets and not climbing into the trenches for the attrition battle with the batsman. If he was more willing to bowl over the wicket regularly then Lyon would have had some decent rough to aim at.

I'm not pointing the finger at Starc to vindicate Lyon. This is a point of strategy and that falls back onto the captain and coaches. Tell Starc to stay over the wicket as much as possible to make Lyon more dangerous in the 4th innings. Teams like India think that way. Aussies seem to rely on tactics in the immediate term rather have a long term strategy for a test.
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Re: The Cricket Thread

Post by Northern Raider »

julian87 wrote: January 20, 2021, 8:20 am
Rick wrote: January 19, 2021, 7:34 pm Starc is copping it and rightly so but Jeeze Lyon has had an absolutely rubbish series!

He has added more with the bat then he has with the ball....


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It looks horrible on paper. But he bowled pretty well for the most part on a few wickets that didn’t deteriorate against the best versus spin batting line up in the world.

He created several chances on the day fives that didn’t go to hand or were missed opportunities that imo would have probably turned the game.
Lyon bowled OK. Not bad, not great. There was an over reliance on him though. On many occasions it was clear he wasn't really threatening yet they persisted with him. Indian batsmen became very comfortable. They needed to break the routine with a more spells of pace both ends or few overs from Labuschagne.
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Re: The Cricket Thread

Post by -PJ- »

julian87 wrote: January 20, 2021, 8:24 am
-PJ- wrote: January 20, 2021, 6:17 am That was terrible.

Paine should hand in his double pluggers, esky and disappear back into the Tassie wilderness..

Starc needs to go, keep him around for short form cricket.

Warner
Pucovski
Labu (c)
Smith
Head
Green
Carey
Cummins
Pattinson
Lyon
Hazlewood.

Next time around.

Very underwhelming series from AUS..
Paine’s test record is as good as Carey’s first class record and was our 3rd best bat this series. Deserves to retain his spot 100% imo.

I don’t mind your 11, but if that’s the 11 Head needs to be captain and Pattinson bats 8. Significantly better bat than Cummins. I do agree with Pattinson in for Starc. If we move on from Paine I think Head needs to be given the opportunity to bat 5 and captain for 10-15 tests as he is a very, very good tactical skipper and imo has been better with the bat than a few others chosen ahead of him.
Yeah I just threw that side together and on reflection now it’s close to what we need. I’m not comparing Paines batting to Careys. But tactically Paine missed the boat in this series. The order blokes bat in and who captains the side is all open for discussion..I get that.

I love test cricket, and that series was lost on the back of poor fielding, poor batting and poor decision making from not just Paine but his leadership team and even Langer. The tactics employed yesterday were atrocious..

We lost a home series to a 3rd string side. 7 starters missing from their strongest line up. If you took 7 players from our side out they wouldn’t beat the Wine Country Woodducks..
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Re: The Cricket Thread

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up the ducks

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Re: The Cricket Thread

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👍
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Re: The Cricket Thread

Post by Northern Raider »

Would be interesting to test our depth in bowling like India just had to. The were missing their top 4 quicks and their no1 spinner. Imagine us taking on SA in the first test without Cummins, Hazelwood, Starc, Pattinson and Lyon. The attack would be something like Neser, Abbott, Steketee (because he was leading wicket taker for Aust A recently) and Swepson.

P.S. I'm assuming Jai Richardson's should is not ready for 5 day tests just yet. He would walk in if 100%.
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Re: The Cricket Thread

Post by julian87 »

-PJ- wrote: January 20, 2021, 10:32 am
julian87 wrote: January 20, 2021, 8:24 am
-PJ- wrote: January 20, 2021, 6:17 am That was terrible.

Paine should hand in his double pluggers, esky and disappear back into the Tassie wilderness..

Starc needs to go, keep him around for short form cricket.

Warner
Pucovski
Labu (c)
Smith
Head
Green
Carey
Cummins
Pattinson
Lyon
Hazlewood.

Next time around.

Very underwhelming series from AUS..
Paine’s test record is as good as Carey’s first class record and was our 3rd best bat this series. Deserves to retain his spot 100% imo.

I don’t mind your 11, but if that’s the 11 Head needs to be captain and Pattinson bats 8. Significantly better bat than Cummins. I do agree with Pattinson in for Starc. If we move on from Paine I think Head needs to be given the opportunity to bat 5 and captain for 10-15 tests as he is a very, very good tactical skipper and imo has been better with the bat than a few others chosen ahead of him.
Yeah I just threw that side together and on reflection now it’s close to what we need. I’m not comparing Paines batting to Careys. But tactically Paine missed the boat in this series. The order blokes bat in and who captains the side is all open for discussion..I get that.

I love test cricket, and that series was lost on the back of poor fielding, poor batting and poor decision making from not just Paine but his leadership team and even Langer. The tactics employed yesterday were atrocious..

We lost a home series to a 3rd string side. 7 starters missing from their strongest line up. If you took 7 players from our side out they wouldn’t beat the Wine Country Woodducks..
Yep agree. Paine’s tactics left a lot to be desired. I can’t help but think it wasn’t a coincidence that went to **** a bit once Head was gone.
well, I guess you could say that I'm buy curious.
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Re: The Cricket Thread

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In hindsight, it's clear they needed to refresh the bowling attack at some point. I say with hindsight because not many were calling out who to drop before Brisbane. Starc is the obvious one who looked flat but with his pace and left arm, he's the one point of difference so it all gets a bit same same if you play Pattinson as well.

I think what the attack needed at times at the back end of that series, when they started to look a bit tired... was a 5th bowler. Or a bit more from the 5th bowler I should say. Green looked a bit lost with the ball. At some point in those last 2 Tests he needed to chip in with a couple of wickets or a good spell. We used to get more from M Marsh with the ball and that's a low bar. Green is one for the future but I'd like to see him take the game on a bit more, grab it by the scruff like India's kids did.

Pucjovski will hopefully solve that opening spot to share with Warner. That leaves the team needing a new #5. No idea who to put there, Uzzy is probably the next best bat not already in the team but Langer doesn't seem keen on having him around. He's always he first dropped.

Paine has probably taken this team as far as he can. He did the job he was called in to do a couple of years ago but that era has ended. He had a severely weakened team in the 2018 home losses to India so was given leeway. But that excuse doesn't wash 3 years later. India had no right to win that series and we had every advantage- a DN Test that India has no experience at- Adelaide suddenly being grassy as a result- a Gabba match this time around- loss of Kohli - injuries etc.

India played tremendously but that was a series that needed to be won. The team had been rebuilt. He had command of an attack that can get 20 wickets if deployed properly. He even won every toss. If they didn't catch well, then that's on the captain and his own glovework too. Might be time to move on- either with Paine just concentrating on keeping or with a new Keeper.

The only real captaincy options are Cummins- but Australia will never go for a fast bowling captain. Or Smith era 2- but that's unlikely too. So probably Paine stays by default while they pick Head at #5 and hope he plays well enough to make the next captain...
Last edited by BadnMean on January 20, 2021, 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Cricket Thread

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When you look at results in recent times we've not done well under pressure bowling in the 4th innings.
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Re: The Cricket Thread

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Surely Lyon could captain 1 series to put Smith beyond Sth Africa

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Re: The Cricket Thread

Post by Northern Raider »

bonehead wrote: January 20, 2021, 5:58 pm Surely Lyon could captain 1 series to put Smith beyond Sth Africa

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Lyon recites the poem. Too big an ask to add the responsibility of captaincy.
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Re: The Cricket Thread

Post by Dusty »

That series was won between the ears. Australia have lacked the patience, toughness, determination and selflessness to do what India did.

For South Africa I’d be going with:

Warner
Pucovski
Labuschange
Smith
McDermott
Green
Paine (c)
Cummins
Pattinson
Lyon
Hazlewood


Spares: Starc, Swepson, Henriques, ????


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Re: The Cricket Thread

Post by Matt »

Northern Raider wrote: January 19, 2021, 5:50 pm
-TW- wrote: January 19, 2021, 5:49 pm
Azza wrote:Outstanding effort by India. Totally deserving win.
Definitely, to win the series after being rolled for 36 with their B team is a serious effort.

But geez there's some heads that need to roll, starting with Mitchell Starc

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Starc to play Pink Ball tests only
Starc had more drops off his bowling than anyone else. His figures could be series winning if the catches stick.
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Re: The Cricket Thread

Post by Matt »

Northern Raider wrote: January 20, 2021, 9:01 am
julian87 wrote: January 20, 2021, 8:20 am
Rick wrote: January 19, 2021, 7:34 pm Starc is copping it and rightly so but Jeeze Lyon has had an absolutely rubbish series!

He has added more with the bat then he has with the ball....


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It looks horrible on paper. But he bowled pretty well for the most part on a few wickets that didn’t deteriorate against the best versus spin batting line up in the world.

He created several chances on the day fives that didn’t go to hand or were missed opportunities that imo would have probably turned the game.
Lyon bowled OK. Not bad, not great. There was an over reliance on him though. On many occasions it was clear he wasn't really threatening yet they persisted with him. Indian batsmen became very comfortable. They needed to break the routine with a more spells of pace both ends or few overs from Labuschagne.
You might be surprised to learn that Lyon was the 2nd most unlucky bowler in the series. And is half of Paine's drops, plus the stumping mid day 5 of the 4th test
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Re: The Cricket Thread

Post by Matt »

India outplayed us in all bar Adelaide. Even if that was a case of out lasting us in the tough moments; out test cricketing us.

I have no issues with our attack, though I do think Green needs to be 'let off the leash', as Test cricket isn't the place for self preservation. I dont remember a series where we dropped more catches. It was 13-14 plus a stumping (as per my comments above Starc and Lyon were the unlucky ones, and they are getting panned). That's subcontinent fielding standards. India dropped only 1 more than us, but Pant missed a couple of stumpings.

So, where does that lead us? The batsmen. 1 bloke avging over 50 means you lose the series. It's that simple. We have known this is a weakness for a long long time. However Shield cricket hasn't changed its focus to fix it. So, CA have crossed their fingers and hoped to find more Labu's from nowhere, OR, worse, a Warner T20 specialist who us good enough for a freak convert to Tests. Our issues are 95% batting related.

The last 5% is tactics.
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Re: The Cricket Thread

Post by Sid »

Credit to India, they have tremendous cricketing depth.

So no sport other than BBL and the Superb Owl for the next month?
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Re: The Cricket Thread

Post by Matt »

FWIW, Warner came out and said the batting had to be better. Esp the top order.
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Re: The Cricket Thread

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If Warner said anything else he would have been delusional.
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Re: The Cricket Thread

Post by -TW- »

Thanks Dave, in other news water is wet

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Re: The Cricket Thread

Post by julian87 »

Matt wrote: January 21, 2021, 7:33 am India outplayed us in all bar Adelaide. Even if that was a case of out lasting us in the tough moments; out test cricketing us.

I have no issues with our attack, though I do think Green needs to be 'let off the leash', as Test cricket isn't the place for self preservation. I dont remember a series where we dropped more catches. It was 13-14 plus a stumping (as per my comments above Starc and Lyon were the unlucky ones, and they are getting panned). That's subcontinent fielding standards. India dropped only 1 more than us, but Pant missed a couple of stumpings.

So, where does that lead us? The batsmen. 1 bloke avging over 50 means you lose the series. It's that simple. We have known this is a weakness for a long long time. However Shield cricket hasn't changed its focus to fix it. So, CA have crossed their fingers and hoped to find more Labu's from nowhere, OR, worse, a Warner T20 specialist who us good enough for a freak convert to Tests. Our issues are 95% batting related.

The last 5% is tactics.
Agree with this. This is just about the best summation I’ve seen from anyone, anywhere.

Everyone wants to hold the bowling unit and Tim Paine accountable. Paine missed some chances in the last 2 tests which is unlike him but most pundits have him as the best keeper in Australia. And he’s been very good with the bat. In fact his test record with the bat is better than any first class record of keepers people want him replaced with.

If anyone should be held accountable for anything it is the selectors. Picking Joe Burns and especially picking a stop gap opener who’s never once done it before in first class cricket was disgraceful. Retaining Wade over Head was even more disgraceful given he weathered the new ball and threw it away a couple of times in what is meant to be the time of the game where his batting is suited. By the 4th test Moises should have been picked at #5. He’s been a better red ball bat than Wade pretty much forever. He’s divisive but has been a good bat for NSW for some time. And his point of difference, stump to stump slower mediums, could have been very helpful in that attack. But hey Wade is the golden child and you can’t pick 2 all rounders 😂

Khawaja’s record at the top of the order and at home and being not even considered because of a clash with Langer was petulant. Also, the best pundit in media commentary (Skull) suggested before the series that the best opening bat in Shield (besides Harris who has been tried and failed before) is Whiteman. Whiteman’s performances and temperament since converting to opening have been A+ and his technique is sound. Yet he wasn’t even in the discussion.

There will be problems with Green because of his youth but he needs to be persevered with just about no matter what.

I don’t know the size of the squad going to South Africa but another problem is that the T20 side plays at the same time in NZ. So players like Carey, McDermott and co will probably be sent there which arguably isn’t very helpful.
well, I guess you could say that I'm buy curious.
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Re: The Cricket Thread

Post by Matt »

julian87 wrote: January 22, 2021, 5:54 am
Matt wrote: January 21, 2021, 7:33 am India outplayed us in all bar Adelaide. Even if that was a case of out lasting us in the tough moments; out test cricketing us.

I have no issues with our attack, though I do think Green needs to be 'let off the leash', as Test cricket isn't the place for self preservation. I dont remember a series where we dropped more catches. It was 13-14 plus a stumping (as per my comments above Starc and Lyon were the unlucky ones, and they are getting panned). That's subcontinent fielding standards. India dropped only 1 more than us, but Pant missed a couple of stumpings.

So, where does that lead us? The batsmen. 1 bloke avging over 50 means you lose the series. It's that simple. We have known this is a weakness for a long long time. However Shield cricket hasn't changed its focus to fix it. So, CA have crossed their fingers and hoped to find more Labu's from nowhere, OR, worse, a Warner T20 specialist who us good enough for a freak convert to Tests. Our issues are 95% batting related.

The last 5% is tactics.
Agree with this. This is just about the best summation I’ve seen from anyone, anywhere.

Everyone wants to hold the bowling unit and Tim Paine accountable. Paine missed some chances in the last 2 tests which is unlike him but most pundits have him as the best keeper in Australia. And he’s been very good with the bat. In fact his test record with the bat is better than any first class record of keepers people want him replaced with.

If anyone should be held accountable for anything it is the selectors. Picking Joe Burns and especially picking a stop gap opener who’s never once done it before in first class cricket was disgraceful. Retaining Wade over Head was even more disgraceful given he weathered the new ball and threw it away a couple of times in what is meant to be the time of the game where his batting is suited. By the 4th test Moises should have been picked at #5. He’s been a better red ball bat than Wade pretty much forever. He’s divisive but has been a good bat for NSW for some time. And his point of difference, stump to stump slower mediums, could have been very helpful in that attack. But hey Wade is the golden child and you can’t pick 2 all rounders 😂

Khawaja’s record at the top of the order and at home and being not even considered because of a clash with Langer was petulant. Also, the best pundit in media commentary (Skull) suggested before the series that the best opening bat in Shield (besides Harris who has been tried and failed before) is Whiteman. Whiteman’s performances and temperament since converting to opening have been A+ and his technique is sound. Yet he wasn’t even in the discussion.

There will be problems with Green because of his youth but he needs to be persevered with just about no matter what.

I don’t know the size of the squad going to South Africa but another problem is that the T20 side plays at the same time in NZ. So players like Carey, McDermott and co will probably be sent there which arguably isn’t very helpful.
Im very impressed with Green. I'm not leaving him out, but you can't just 'roll the arm over' at Test level. The temperament of he and Puc was super impressive.

I cant endorse Henriques. 36 ish avg is no better than our other options.

I liked Whitman as a young keeper bat, so the new opening bat is intriguing.
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Re: The Cricket Thread

Post by julian87 »

I’m not necessarily endorsing Moises but he was the other option within the bubble and should have been used imo. Since 2018 he’s scored well over 1500 runs at over 40. Cut the start of 2018 and it goes over 50 I think. He was a middling player for a long time but has improved with age/experience imo.

Sometimes form is just that but 2 and a half seasons of shield with such a record indicates to me it is improvement rather than just form.
well, I guess you could say that I'm buy curious.
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Re: The Cricket Thread

Post by Northern Raider »

julian87 wrote: January 22, 2021, 6:42 am I’m not necessarily endorsing Moises but he was the other option within the bubble and should have been used imo. Since 2018 he’s scored well over 1500 runs at over 40. Cut the start of 2018 and it goes over 50 I think. He was a middling player for a long time but has improved with age/experience imo.

Sometimes form is just that but 2 and a half seasons of shield with such a record indicates to me it is improvement rather than just form.
Henriques has definitely improved as a batsman over the years. Early on his performance didn't match his reputation he'd earned as a dominant junior player. When he did get picked in the test team it was at the time Australia were desperate to find a no6 that could bowl and he was pitched into the arena when he probably wasn't good enough.

As you point out his returns at First Class level have steadily improved in recent years. To the point where he's earned consideration purely as a batsman. Worth giving him a shot instead of Wade for an immediate fix. Would prefer somebody a bit younger for a long term solution though.
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RedRaider
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Re: The Cricket Thread

Post by RedRaider »

Matt wrote: January 21, 2021, 7:33 am India outplayed us in all bar Adelaide. Even if that was a case of out lasting us in the tough moments; out test cricketing us.

I have no issues with our attack, though I do think Green needs to be 'let off the leash', as Test cricket isn't the place for self preservation. I dont remember a series where we dropped more catches. It was 13-14 plus a stumping (as per my comments above Starc and Lyon were the unlucky ones, and they are getting panned). That's subcontinent fielding standards. India dropped only 1 more than us, but Pant missed a couple of stumpings.

So, where does that lead us? The batsmen. 1 bloke avging over 50 means you lose the series. It's that simple. We have known this is a weakness for a long long time. However Shield cricket hasn't changed its focus to fix it. So, CA have crossed their fingers and hoped to find more Labu's from nowhere, OR, worse, a Warner T20 specialist who us good enough for a freak convert to Tests. Our issues are 95% batting related.

The last 5% is tactics.
India proved to be clearly the better team and with such a long injury list far better depth.

I think our poor fielding and bowling tactics cost us the series. In the third test the bowling was far to short. We were trying to bash them out rather than bowl them out. They stood up and drew the third test when if we had held our chances we should have put them away. Green was very good in the field but I thought he too was caught up in too much short pitched bowling. Glenn McGrath always said mostly aim to hit the top of off stump and make the batsman play. He did ok with that philosophy.

On Tim Paine, he missed catches and he missed that stumping. I wonder if he is thinking so much about the Captaincy and what to do next, that he is not as focused on being the best keeper he can be. His batting as a 7 was fine. His keeping was not. The tactics seem to be worked out by Langer and others and Paine. To bowl consistently short in Sydney is not going to get rewards with the current wicket if batsmen are prepared to let the ball go or take it on the body. The Indians did both of those things in the final two tests. I give full credit to the Indians for both their physical and mental toughness. Australia had enough runs on the board to win both of the last two Test matches imo. What let the team down was the inability to take the catching/stumping opportunities when they presented themselves.
julian87
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Re: The Cricket Thread

Post by julian87 »

I don’t think there’s a person involved in the sport in Australia that would be surprised that Langer is out of his depth tactically. His game was always built on being a competitor and fighter. Has about as much personality as an old boot. I’m really not convinced that hard nosed my way or the highway type is suited as a national cricket coach tbh.

The selections haven’t just been a problem this series. He picked 35 year old Peter Siddle for 4 of the 5 tests in the 2019 Ashes series, he kept Starc out of the team for crying out loud. And don’t get me started on recalling Bancroft for that series as well. I know he’s not the sole selector but he’s obviously got the biggest say and I honestly think he picks on attitude, training and competitiveness rather than the best 11 and that’s just ridiculous at that level.

‘The Test’ attempted to show him as rebuilding Australian cricket. But I’m not alone in thinking it really just highlighted his shortcomings more than anything else.
well, I guess you could say that I'm buy curious.
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gangrenous
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Re: The Cricket Thread

Post by gangrenous »

I haven’t paid much attention to cricket lately. But I recall seeing an ad for The Test and I don’t remember what it showed, I only remember thinking that Langer came across in that snippet as a jerk and the opposite of what was needed to repair the culture of the team.
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