2021 Canberra Raiders draw

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greeneyed
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Re: 2021 Canberra Raiders draw

Post by greeneyed »

Botman wrote: December 2, 2020, 7:42 pm
greeneyed wrote: December 2, 2020, 7:39 pm
Botman wrote: December 2, 2020, 7:34 pm Travel parity can never and will never be possible in any national, or even east coast competition. The teams where the clusters are will always win out on that. Nothing can really be done about it.
I’ve readily acknowledged that... if you play only some teams twice... and that is not the concern I’ve raised. Unfortunately, some people in the conversation aren’t grasping it.
And extending the draw to a 30 round season is utterly unreasonable, so you cant play everyone twice, the physical toll of the season is too much. And bring it down to a 15 rounds would cost the game an insane amount of money and no one, not clubs, players, tv networks etc would sign off on it.

So i ask you, what's the solution then?

(p.s the answer is divisions... equalise it within clusters of certain teams)
I’ve already answered that a few posts above. It’s what the NRL actually used to do.
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Re: 2021 Canberra Raiders draw

Post by Botman »

Except randomised draws only work when you beleive they're randomised
Which the moment we get a slightly less than advantageous draw, you will declare is clearly not randomised because odds are in a randomised draw, we'll get banged there too, because of natural geography

It is what it is. This draw looks quite balanced to me. It's not prohibitive to our 2021 goals, and on we march. Athletes tend to look for every and any means to motivate themselves, to put a chip on the shoulder to create this Us vs Them mentality, it helps drives performance under extreme circumstances... If you as a fan feel the need to do that too, more power to you. But it'll be a hard no from me.
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Re: 2021 Canberra Raiders draw

Post by Fuifui Bradbrad »

Botman wrote:
greeneyed wrote: December 2, 2020, 7:39 pm
Botman wrote: December 2, 2020, 7:34 pm Travel parity can never and will never be possible in any national, or even east coast competition. The teams where the clusters are will always win out on that. Nothing can really be done about it.
I’ve readily acknowledged that... if you play only some teams twice... and that is not the concern I’ve raised. Unfortunately, some people in the conversation aren’t grasping it.
And extending the draw to a 30 round season is utterly unreasonable, so you cant play everyone twice, the physical toll of the season is too much. And bring it down to a 15 rounds would cost the game an insane amount of money and no one, not clubs, players, tv networks etc would sign off on it.

So i ask you, what's the solution then?

(p.s the answer is divisions... equalise it within clusters of certain teams)
You’re... you’re thinking the answer is the Fui system. 4 divisions of 4 teams. Each comprising of a Sydney team, a flyaway team and a road trip team. Play each team in the div twice, and outside the div once. Gives you space for a shortened NRL season and throw in more time to enhance the international game with rep weekends
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Re: 2021 Canberra Raiders draw

Post by gergreg »

Add another two teams, then four teams eventually and play each other once. I think 25 rounds is too much. I watched just about every game this year and didn't get bored. I have in previous years when it has seemed like some teams didn't care whether they lost.

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Re: 2021 Canberra Raiders draw

Post by Botman »

Fuifui Bradbrad wrote: December 2, 2020, 8:17 pm
Botman wrote:
greeneyed wrote: December 2, 2020, 7:39 pm
Botman wrote: December 2, 2020, 7:34 pm Travel parity can never and will never be possible in any national, or even east coast competition. The teams where the clusters are will always win out on that. Nothing can really be done about it.
I’ve readily acknowledged that... if you play only some teams twice... and that is not the concern I’ve raised. Unfortunately, some people in the conversation aren’t grasping it.
And extending the draw to a 30 round season is utterly unreasonable, so you cant play everyone twice, the physical toll of the season is too much. And bring it down to a 15 rounds would cost the game an insane amount of money and no one, not clubs, players, tv networks etc would sign off on it.

So i ask you, what's the solution then?

(p.s the answer is divisions... equalise it within clusters of certain teams)
You’re... you’re thinking the answer is the Fui system. 4 divisions of 4 teams. Each comprising of a Sydney team, a flyaway team and a road trip team. Play each team in the div twice, and outside the div once. Gives you space for a shortened NRL season and throw in more time to enhance the international game with rep weekends
My guy, the Fui system is just the Botman system, or the PigRickMan system, or the Pigman system, or the Nick system, or the gnocchi system, or the Fred system or the Raider_69 system

It's a system as old as my posting bot itself.
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Re: 2021 Canberra Raiders draw

Post by afgtnk »

We're understanding it GE, believe me.

You aren't proposing any viable solutions though, or taking heed of the commercial realities the code, not just the NRL competition, faces..... at this point, it's just a whinge.
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Re: 2021 Canberra Raiders draw

Post by greeneyed »

In your view they’re not viable, but in mine they’re quite viable. What I’m suggesting is a return to something akin to the NRL’s previous policy. Better management at the NRL would deliver better outcomes. Stronger leaders wouldn’t have left us in the current position.
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Re: 2021 Canberra Raiders draw

Post by afgtnk »

Your proposed solution doesn't work on a number of levels. That includes ground availability, game TAT's, broadcaster demands, and club preferences (e.g. Cowboys want to avoid playing at home early, we want to avoid playing at night in Canberra's winter), and coordinating specials events (e.g. ANZAC day, Easter, Magic, avoiding certain dates and clashes with other events) to name but a few.

All of these take precedent above time spent travelling for teams, because they're the actual factors needed to be considered to hold games. Travel isn't one of them. So long as the transport is there, a team can make it. The NRL would be flat out trying to make a viable draw as it is that's functional to the stakeholders, let alone trying to doctor it further by adding divisions in there, meaning certain teams have to play others within certain dates. It doesn't work. It's why you see teams in the regular season sometimes playing each other twice within the space of a few weeks.... they're literally just trying to fit them in wherever they can.

Simply having to share at least 10 grounds with the A-League and Super Rugby, both whose seasons start go into 2021 before ours and therefore have their ground bookings ahead of ours, would be incredibly tricky to work around, let alone anything else I've mentioned. Pie in the sky **** to think otherwise.
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Re: 2021 Canberra Raiders draw

Post by greeneyed »

It worked quite well before. Most of those things on that long list have nothing to do with the issue. All the things on that long list are relevant under both the existing and previous policies and can be relatively easily overcome. There’s only one real reason that Sydney derbies are prioritised, and that’s the demands of Channel Nine. The NRL should not have compromised the fairness of the competition for them. Hopefully technology will soon overtake them.

Ironic that Canberra’s request to play afternoons in winter is mentioned on your list... but it isn’t being delivered on either!
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Re: 2021 Canberra Raiders draw

Post by The Nickman »

Our draw looks quite good, I like it

Should be no excuses relating to the draw in 2021, we’ve had a favourable one now three seasons running

Someone up there must like us!
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Re: 2021 Canberra Raiders draw

Post by simo »

greeneyed wrote: December 2, 2020, 4:46 pm So I decided to do the math, just for the record... to calculate the distance the Raiders will need to travel to away games, and the distance away teams will have to travel to the Raiders home games, in 2021. I had some spare time watching the cricket.

Where teams will travel by bus, I've taken into account between the home grounds of the two teams. Where teams will travel by air, I've taken into account the flight distance for the legs that teams would normally take between the cities, plus travel from the airport to the ground at which the game will be played.

I've said I don't think this is a good indicator of relative travel burden between clubs... but I've been told it is... and that the numbers will be about the same.

These distances are one way... obviously, the total travel is double that.

Travel for away teams to Canberra's home games: 7,350 kms
Travel to away games for Canberra: 11,786 kms

The numbers are partly affected by Magic Round. The Bulldogs are being forced to travel to Brisbane for a home game. If you assume that the Raiders played the Bulldogs in Sydney, rather than Lang Park, the Raiders would have to travel 11,100 kms to their away games.

The numbers are also affected by the decisions of clubs to take their home games "away". The Roosters are taking us to Perth, while we are taking the Knights to Wagga. It could be argued the NRL has encouraged both teams to do so... but it is probably driven by their own commercial decisions. It is therefore doubtful that we should adjust for that too. But even if you assume that the Raiders game in Wagga is an "away" game, and that the away game against the Roosters was played at the SCG (because the venue changes were encouraged by the NRL) the Raiders would still be travelling 8,521 kms to their away games.
yes, the numbers do look worse if you pretend that the roosters arent also travelling to perth for our game and that the bulldogs dont also have to travel to brisbane and the knights to wagga. but they all do and thats where the numbers fall.
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Re: 2021 Canberra Raiders draw

Post by simo »

The Nickman wrote: December 3, 2020, 5:54 am Our draw looks quite good, I like it

Should be no excuses relating to the draw in 2021, we’ve had a favourable one now three seasons running

Someone up there must like us!
you dont think its unfair that we have to play against other teams in the competition?
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Re: 2021 Canberra Raiders draw

Post by Bay53 »

Again, the comments focussing on the amount of kms travelled are not the way the Raiders look at it. The reality is being a non Sydney team, we travel for all away games. We never get to play an away game 1/2 hour down the road. Someone pointed out that if we played the Dogs in Sydney we would travel about 700kms less for the season.

The reality is it makes no difference, we get on a bus to Sydney the day before or we get on a plane* the day before to Brisbane. Travel door to door is roughly the same.

This year was obviously very different and the travel arrangements for our prelim final severely affected our chances of winning that game. We would have much preferred the game had been played in Sydney, but under normal circumstances travelling on a plane the day before rather than a bus to Sydney really doesn’t make much difference.

* Magic Round may not be the best example. We have only played it once and our travel was a disaster. They sent us to Melbourne and the group waited there all the Friday. What should have been a 90 min trip ended up being 12 hours.
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Re: 2021 Canberra Raiders draw

Post by greeneyed »

simo wrote: December 3, 2020, 7:08 am yes, the numbers do look worse if you pretend that the roosters arent also travelling to perth for our game and that the bulldogs dont also have to travel to brisbane and the knights to wagga. but they all do and thats where the numbers fall.
I'm not pretending. That's why I included allowances for all that, should you choose to. Making all those allowances, the Raiders are still making the equivalent of four more bus trips to Sydney on away trips than their opponents will make to Canberra's matches.

I'm not saying these numbers are sensible indicators of relative travel burdens for clubs. I've gone to great lengths to say that. I was just pointing out that it is inaccurate to claim that the Raiders' opponents travel to our home games is equivalent to the Raiders' travel to their away games.
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Re: 2021 Canberra Raiders draw

Post by simo »

greeneyed wrote: December 3, 2020, 7:40 am
simo wrote: December 3, 2020, 7:08 am yes, the numbers do look worse if you pretend that the roosters arent also travelling to perth for our game and that the bulldogs dont also have to travel to brisbane and the knights to wagga. but they all do and thats where the numbers fall.
I'm not pretending. That's why I included allowances for all that, should you choose to. Making all those allowances, the Raiders are still making the equivalent of four more bus trips to Sydney on away trips than their opponents will make to Canberra's matches.

I'm not saying these numbers are sensible indicators of relative travel burdens for clubs. I've gone to great lengths to say that. I was just pointing out that it is inaccurate to claim that the Raiders' opponents travel to our home games is equivalent to the Raiders' travel to their away games.
instead of splitting it for home and away games, split it for canberra and opponent and youll get the number i gave which has it roughly even for the year. if youre trying to look for ways to calculate it so it shows the raiders are disadvantaged you will always find it.
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Re: 2021 Canberra Raiders draw

Post by The Nickman »

simo wrote: December 3, 2020, 7:10 am
The Nickman wrote: December 3, 2020, 5:54 am Our draw looks quite good, I like it

Should be no excuses relating to the draw in 2021, we’ve had a favourable one now three seasons running

Someone up there must like us!
you dont think its unfair that we have to play against other teams in the competition?
If it were up to me we'd play every game at home (and Wagga). Just another reason why the NRL hates us!
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Re: 2021 Canberra Raiders draw

Post by Wiki Special »

Reading the discussion above regarding the draw I think the answer is and has always been a 22 Round System. Teams split into 2 x Groups of 8. Each team plays everyone once and the other 7 teams in their Group twice. How the Groups are split can be dabated (i.e. are they the same every year, does it change randomly each year, etc.). But I think 'Rivals' should always play twice like Rabbits v Roosters, Cowboys v Broncos, Dragons v Sharks and so on.

But what about the TV Money that pays for additional Rounds/Games? For mine we have 3 Rep Rounds each Year. These include the three SOO matches played on a Sunday night or Friday night - whatever the Broadcasters want. Additional matches throughout the Round include the Women's SOO, Tonga v Samoa, NZ v NZ Moari, Lebanon v PNG, U/20's SOO, QLD Residents v NSW Residents and so on. All Best of 3 matches also.

Just my two cents.
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Re: 2021 Canberra Raiders draw

Post by greeneyed »

simo wrote: December 3, 2020, 7:56 am
greeneyed wrote: December 3, 2020, 7:40 am
simo wrote: December 3, 2020, 7:08 am yes, the numbers do look worse if you pretend that the roosters arent also travelling to perth for our game and that the bulldogs dont also have to travel to brisbane and the knights to wagga. but they all do and thats where the numbers fall.
I'm not pretending. That's why I included allowances for all that, should you choose to. Making all those allowances, the Raiders are still making the equivalent of four more bus trips to Sydney on away trips than their opponents will make to Canberra's matches.

I'm not saying these numbers are sensible indicators of relative travel burdens for clubs. I've gone to great lengths to say that. I was just pointing out that it is inaccurate to claim that the Raiders' opponents travel to our home games is equivalent to the Raiders' travel to their away games.
instead of splitting it for home and away games, split it for canberra and opponent and youll get the number i gave which has it roughly even for the year. if youre trying to look for ways to calculate it so it shows the raiders are disadvantaged you will always find it.
I could just as easily say that if you're looking for ways to calculate it so it shows the Raiders are not disadvantaged you will always find it.

I wasn't looking for a way to calculate it so it shows the Raiders are disadvantaged. I know they are disadvantaged, because the NRL's parameters for setting up the draw give priority to Sydney derbies. There are going to be swings and roundabouts when teams cannot play every other twice (or once) - and then you put on bells and whistles like decisions by clubs to take their home games away. But the NRL's policy parameter guarantees a lack of a level playing field - which consistently favours Sydney clubs. The Sydney clubs love it... indeed, they keep bringing up proposals for formalised pools to entrench Sydney versus the "rest".

What I was trying to do was the math. Now I understand the basis of your calculation, on that basis mine is:

Raiders' travel to all their matches in 2021: 12,023
Opponents' travel to Raiders matches in 2021: 11,418

That is a difference of a couple of bus trips to Sydney. I'd agree that's not too far off level. Personally, I don't think it makes any sense to suggest that a club's commercial decision to take their games away should be reflected in an indicator of their travel "burden". But either way, I still think it is not a meaningful indicator of relative travel burden - it makes more sense to look at each club's travel over the year.
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Re: 2021 Canberra Raiders draw

Post by simo »

greeneyed wrote: December 3, 2020, 9:06 am
simo wrote: December 3, 2020, 7:56 am
greeneyed wrote: December 3, 2020, 7:40 am
simo wrote: December 3, 2020, 7:08 am yes, the numbers do look worse if you pretend that the roosters arent also travelling to perth for our game and that the bulldogs dont also have to travel to brisbane and the knights to wagga. but they all do and thats where the numbers fall.
I'm not pretending. That's why I included allowances for all that, should you choose to. Making all those allowances, the Raiders are still making the equivalent of four more bus trips to Sydney on away trips than their opponents will make to Canberra's matches.

I'm not saying these numbers are sensible indicators of relative travel burdens for clubs. I've gone to great lengths to say that. I was just pointing out that it is inaccurate to claim that the Raiders' opponents travel to our home games is equivalent to the Raiders' travel to their away games.
instead of splitting it for home and away games, split it for canberra and opponent and youll get the number i gave which has it roughly even for the year. if youre trying to look for ways to calculate it so it shows the raiders are disadvantaged you will always find it.
I could just as easily say that if you're looking for ways to calculate it so it shows the Raiders are not disadvantaged you will always find it.

I wasn't looking for a way to calculate it so it shows the Raiders are disadvantaged. I know they are disadvantaged, because the NRL's parameters for setting up the draw give priority to Sydney derbies. There are going to be swings and roundabouts when teams cannot play every other twice (or once) - and then you put on bells and whistles like decisions by clubs to take their home games away. But the NRL's policy parameter guarantees a lack of a level playing field - which consistently favours Sydney clubs. The Sydney clubs love it... indeed, they keep bringing up proposals for formalised pools to entrench Sydney versus the "rest".

What I was trying to do was the math. Now I understand the basis of your calculation, on that basis mine is:

Raiders' travel to all their matches in 2021: 12,023
Opponents' travel to Raiders matches in 2021: 11,418

That is a difference of a couple of bus trips to Sydney. I'd agree that's not too far off level. Personally, I don't think it makes any sense to suggest that a club's commercial decision to take their games away should be reflected in an indicator of their travel "burden". But either way, I still think it is not a meaningful indicator of relative travel burden - it makes more sense to look at each club's travel over the year.
yes, im looking for ways to calculate it so its even by calculating all of it.....
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Re: 2021 Canberra Raiders draw

Post by greeneyed »

It is pretty clear you were looking for an alternative to the numbers that actually give a better indication of relative travel burden for clubs over the year. Otherwise, you wouldn't have done the calculations.

I said this way back at the start...

"The clubs which come do that trip once per year. The key issue is the total travel burden for each club over the year, however, which is shown at the link."

It is pretty easy for the Roosters to schedule in a trip to Perth, take their home game "away" and be paid well by the WA Government to do so... (at trip of 3,300 kms) when you're only travelling 3,000 kms otherwise.
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Re: 2021 Canberra Raiders draw

Post by The Nickman »

It's maths
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Re: 2021 Canberra Raiders draw

Post by greeneyed »

OK.
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Re: 2021 Canberra Raiders draw

Post by The Nickman »

greeneyed wrote: December 3, 2020, 9:27 am It is pretty clear you were looking for an alternative to the numbers that actually give a better indication of relative travel burden for clubs over the year. Otherwise, you wouldn't have done the calculations.

I said this way back at the start...

"The clubs which come do that trip once per year. The key issue is the total travel burden for each club over the year, however, which is shown at the link."

It is pretty easy for the Roosters to schedule in a trip to Perth, take their home game "away" and be paid well by the WA Government to do so... (at trip of 3,300 kms) when you're only travelling 3,000 kms otherwise.
Ok, now calculate how far the Cowboys, Warriors and Storm travel in comparison to the Raiders.

I'll wait.
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Re: 2021 Canberra Raiders draw

Post by greeneyed »

The Nickman wrote: December 3, 2020, 9:36 am
greeneyed wrote: December 3, 2020, 9:27 am It is pretty clear you were looking for an alternative to the numbers that actually give a better indication of relative travel burden for clubs over the year. Otherwise, you wouldn't have done the calculations.

I said this way back at the start...

"The clubs which come do that trip once per year. The key issue is the total travel burden for each club over the year, however, which is shown at the link."

It is pretty easy for the Roosters to schedule in a trip to Perth, take their home game "away" and be paid well by the WA Government to do so... (at trip of 3,300 kms) when you're only travelling 3,000 kms otherwise.
Ok, now calculate how far the Cowboys, Warriors and Storm travel in comparison to the Raiders.

I'll wait.
I don't have to.

This was posted way, way back: https://nothingbutleague.com/2020/11/29 ... -analysis/
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Re: 2021 Canberra Raiders draw

Post by The Nickman »

Looks like even the Broncos have to travel further than the Raiders in 2021... the NRL hates the Broncos!!
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Re: 2021 Canberra Raiders draw

Post by greeneyed »

I've never claimed the Raiders have a worse travel burden than the Warriors, Cowboys, Storm or Broncos.

What I'm saying is that the NRL has a policy that deliberately favours the Sydney clubs... when dealing with a situation in which there is not a full home and away draw (ie every team plays the other twice). They ensure that Sydney clubs play each other twice as far as possible, with less travel burden... giving the other clubs more travel burden. Nothing more.

The point I'm making is pretty simple. But there are a lot of people looking for alternative indicators of the travel burden to prove that what I'm saying is wrong. Or that I'm biased in saying it. It isn't wrong, and it is not biased to make the point. I am just saying the NRL should not have policies that deliberately favour some clubs over others. I don't think it is too much to ask.
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Re: 2021 Canberra Raiders draw

Post by afgtnk »

greeneyed wrote: December 3, 2020, 9:39 am
The Nickman wrote: December 3, 2020, 9:36 am
greeneyed wrote: December 3, 2020, 9:27 am It is pretty clear you were looking for an alternative to the numbers that actually give a better indication of relative travel burden for clubs over the year. Otherwise, you wouldn't have done the calculations.

I said this way back at the start...

"The clubs which come do that trip once per year. The key issue is the total travel burden for each club over the year, however, which is shown at the link."

It is pretty easy for the Roosters to schedule in a trip to Perth, take their home game "away" and be paid well by the WA Government to do so... (at trip of 3,300 kms) when you're only travelling 3,000 kms otherwise.
Ok, now calculate how far the Cowboys, Warriors and Storm travel in comparison to the Raiders.

I'll wait.
I don't have to.

This was posted way, way back: https://nothingbutleague.com/2020/11/29 ... -analysis/
Those numbers don't look accurate at all. Way underdone compared to the data the NRL has put out in previous seasons for all teams.
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Re: 2021 Canberra Raiders draw

Post by greeneyed »

They are one way figures, by the looks. So you can double them for the actual kms.
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Re: 2021 Canberra Raiders draw

Post by afgtnk »

Seems about right then for a regional team that is about ~250km from the nearest ground. Not sure what the complaining is about
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Re: 2021 Canberra Raiders draw

Post by greeneyed »

I get it, you don’t wish to understand the points.
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Re: 2021 Canberra Raiders draw

Post by afgtnk »

We understand them GE. They've already been countered and answered.
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afgtnk
Bradley Clyde
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Re: 2021 Canberra Raiders draw

Post by afgtnk »

Bay53 wrote: December 3, 2020, 7:25 am Again, the comments focussing on the amount of kms travelled are not the way the Raiders look at it. The reality is being a non Sydney team, we travel for all away games. We never get to play an away game 1/2 hour down the road. Someone pointed out that if we played the Dogs in Sydney we would travel about 700kms less for the season.

The reality is it makes no difference, we get on a bus to Sydney the day before or we get on a plane* the day before to Brisbane. Travel door to door is roughly the same.

This year was obviously very different and the travel arrangements for our prelim final severely affected our chances of winning that game. We would have much preferred the game had been played in Sydney, but under normal circumstances travelling on a plane the day before rather than a bus to Sydney really doesn’t make much difference.

* Magic Round may not be the best example. We have only played it once and our travel was a disaster. They sent us to Melbourne and the group waited there all the Friday. What should have been a 90 min trip ended up being 12 hours.
What day did the Storm travel on for the Grand Final from their relocated home to beat the Panthers?
The Nickman
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Re: 2021 Canberra Raiders draw

Post by The Nickman »

Yeah, we lost the prelim final because we had nothing left to give after the match against the Roosters the week before. Plus, the Storm played the perfect game plan, they knew they had to blow us off the park early and used speed to go around us on the outside.

We, as fans, need to stop peddling narratives like we lost the prelim final because of travel, because it's utter hogwash.
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greeneyed
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Re: 2021 Canberra Raiders draw

Post by greeneyed »

afgtnk wrote: December 3, 2020, 10:35 am What day did the Storm travel on for the Grand Final from their relocated home to beat the Panthers?
They travelled the day before.
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simo
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Re: 2021 Canberra Raiders draw

Post by simo »

greeneyed wrote: December 3, 2020, 10:54 am
afgtnk wrote: December 3, 2020, 10:35 am What day did the Storm travel on for the Grand Final from their relocated home to beat the Panthers?
They travelled the day before.
may as well have handed them the premiership
Dont delete this GE
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