Players who make players around them better

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papabear
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Players who make players around them better

Post by papabear »

https://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/15/maga ... ier-t.html

Its an interesting article, and it is where I think the raiders could probably get the most improvement relative to other sides in a salary cap era.

Everyone looks at super coach type stats, tackle, mis tackles, tries, try assists, try causes line break cases etc etc.

For me there is a lot of value in the players that appear to make others around them better. I am just going off the eye test, but to really know would be if you had some good on/off stats with players on and off the field, the problem with that is the backline largely stays them same and rotations of middle is similar enough that is impacted also by who your playing against and how fresh they are.

So just going on the eye test of some players who always played imo selfishly for themselves, tell tale signs of this is a low percentage dummy half try, a **** early kick, a big money ball pass that isnt on.
- Kurt gidley - tried hard but took a selfish option from dummy half so many times.
- Robbie Farah - talented but see above.
- Jarryd Hayne - he could through a garbage pass over the sideline like it was no ones business.
- Mitchell Moses


In the raiders from my eye test, these guys take a selfish option too often for me.
John Bateman - Those kicks. Indefensible. He is a guy likely to jam out of the line when its not on just because his head is exploding or run a play at a guy to get even.
Josh Hodgson - Nowhere near as bad as farah, but **** me he runs some **** attacking sets through him when the ball needs space.

My eye test for guys how make those around them better. I am leaving out the superstars who obviously do through there gravity i.e. attract so much defense and play because they already heavily valued - Wighton / papalii
Nic Cotric - honestly his defensive reads and runs always come at an opportune time and you can feel a bit safer defending on a wing with him outside you. Though with whats hes being paid you could argue that hes no longer in the undervalued card, i still think he has a great impact on the line around him.
D Lui and to a lesser extent sutton - There work in the middle often goes unsung - D Lui has been phenomenal over the pass year or two, with the amount of defensive work he does both laterally and pushing up, in addition he doesnt take the josh papalii third or fourth hit up when we are already rolling forward (josh also does tough stuff too as he does all the stuff) but he rarely gets glory ftp runs just hard runs. Sutton as well.

Sia - I know we have a very full middle rotation but pre injury he sets the line speed, has heavy contact and drives a good kick chase flogging himself for twenty minutes, honestly against the good teams i think we need him to ensure we dont get blown out early.

My favourite all time - Nigel Plum - a lot thought he was a plodder, but his work and contact in the middle slowed the other side down so much, it didnt come up in stats but him on the field we looked like a reasonable defensive middle, without him we were like a paper towel at times.

I havent watched a great deal of league outside of raiders games for a while with life being busier and all, but this is where imo our recruitment needs to go on (besides the obvious needs for a quality outside back), players who add value to the teams as a whole not just big names, for the record I think we have been doing a very good job of it post stick.
Last edited by papabear on September 23, 2020, 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Players who make players around them better

Post by Northern Raider »

Good old Nigel Plum. One of my all time favourite Raiders. Closest thing I've seen to a concrete wall in defense. Unfortunately he was one dimensional in that respect and didn't offer much with the ball.
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Re: Players who make players around them better

Post by Botman »

Im not sure i understand this thread...

Based on the intro, i would say I dont trust the eyes of anyone who thinks JB doesnt make the players around him and his team better.
He's the quintessential example of this.

But then we've got Nigel Plum being held up as a player who did this... i liked the guy a lot and i wasnt as down on him as others either, but he hit blokes and hit em hard... he didnt make any better around him.

Strange stuff.
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Re: Players who make players around them better

Post by Finchy »

papabear wrote: September 23, 2020, 9:56 am https://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/15/maga ... ier-t.html

Its an interesting article, and it is where I think the raiders could probably get the most improvement relative to other sides in a salary cap era.

Everyone looks at super coach type stats, tackle, mis tackles, tries, try assists, try causes line break cases etc etc.

For me there is a lot of value in the players that appear to make others around them better. I am just going off the eye test, but to really know would be if you had some good on/off stats with players on and off the field, the problem with that is the backline largely stays them same and rotations of middle is similar enough that is impacted also by who your playing against and how fresh they are.

So just going on the eye test of some players who always played imo selfishly for themselves, tell tale signs of this is a low percentage dummy half try, a **** early kick, a big money ball pass that isnt on.
- Kurt gidley - tried hard but took a selfish option from dummy half so many times.
- Robbie Farah - talented but see above.
- Jarryd Hayne - he could through a garbage pass over the sideline like it was no ones business.
- Mitchell Moses


In the raiders from my eye test, these guys take a selfish option too often for me.
John Bateman - Those kicks. Indefensible. He is a guy likely to jam out of the line when its not on just because his head is exploding or run a play at a guy to get even.
Josh Hodgson - Nowhere near as bad as farah, but **** me he runs some **** attacking sets through him when the ball needs space.

My eye test for guys how make those around them better. I am leaving out the superstars who obviously do through there gravity i.e. attract so much defense and play because they already heavily valued - Wighton / papalii
Nic Cotric - honestly his defensive reads and runs always come at an opportune time and you can feel a bit safer defending on a wing with him outside you. Though with whats hes being paid you could argue that hes no longer in the undervalued card, i still think he has a great impact on the line around him.
Robert Lui and to a lesser extent sutton - There work in the middle often goes unsung - Robert Lui has been phenomenal over the pass year or two, with the amount of defensive work he does both laterally and pushing up, in addition he doesnt take the josh papalii third or fourth hit up when we are already rolling forward (josh also does tough stuff too as he does all the stuff) but he rarely gets glory ftp runs just hard runs. Sutton as well.

Sia - I know we have a very full middle rotation but pre injury he sets the line speed, has heavy contact and drives a good kick chase flogging himself for twenty minutes, honestly against the good teams i think we need him to ensure we dont get blown out early.

My favourite all time - Nigel Plum - a lot thought he was a plodder, but his work and contact in the middle slowed the other side down so much, it didnt come up in stats but him on the field we looked like a reasonable defensive middle, without him we were like a paper towel at times.

I havent watched a great deal of league outside of raiders games for a while with life being busier and all, but this is where imo our recruitment needs to go on (besides the obvious needs for a quality outside back), players who add value to the teams as a whole not just big names, for the record I think we have been doing a very good job of it post stick.
Robert Lui? You mean Dunamis right?
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Re: Players who make players around them better

Post by The Nickman »

Haha this thread is brilliant. Some of papa's best work.
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Re: Players who make players around them better

Post by Canberra Milk »

That article is complicated

I'm not sure if this is the same thing the author means, but Joey Johns was the best player I've ever seen to make everyone better. Remember that season where Newcastle were garbage while he was injured, then he came back and all these rubbish players looked like world beaters. Ricky Stuart for the Raiders too.

He seems to be talking specifically about not taking the selfish play, and minimising an opposition's effectiveness.

I suspect Soliola would be one. Great line speed and commitment, which is hard to measure but would show up in general defensive effectiveness. Again though that may be to do with leadership which I'm not sure is what the author means

Interestingly, some positions should play selfishly. Like a soccer striker, should have an eye for goal and if too hesitant about possibly passing etc, may diminish their effectiveness. Even they though could potentially play like this Battier guy and find ways to improve the scoring rates of other players. It's complicated. I'm not sure the NRL is at that level of hyper-analysis yet, as per this article.
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Re: Players who make players around them better

Post by Northern Raider »

Finchy wrote: September 23, 2020, 10:17 am
papabear wrote: September 23, 2020, 9:56 am https://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/15/maga ... ier-t.html

Its an interesting article, and it is where I think the raiders could probably get the most improvement relative to other sides in a salary cap era.

Everyone looks at super coach type stats, tackle, mis tackles, tries, try assists, try causes line break cases etc etc.

For me there is a lot of value in the players that appear to make others around them better. I am just going off the eye test, but to really know would be if you had some good on/off stats with players on and off the field, the problem with that is the backline largely stays them same and rotations of middle is similar enough that is impacted also by who your playing against and how fresh they are.

So just going on the eye test of some players who always played imo selfishly for themselves, tell tale signs of this is a low percentage dummy half try, a **** early kick, a big money ball pass that isnt on.
- Kurt gidley - tried hard but took a selfish option from dummy half so many times.
- Robbie Farah - talented but see above.
- Jarryd Hayne - he could through a garbage pass over the sideline like it was no ones business.
- Mitchell Moses


In the raiders from my eye test, these guys take a selfish option too often for me.
John Bateman - Those kicks. Indefensible. He is a guy likely to jam out of the line when its not on just because his head is exploding or run a play at a guy to get even.
Josh Hodgson - Nowhere near as bad as farah, but **** me he runs some **** attacking sets through him when the ball needs space.

My eye test for guys how make those around them better. I am leaving out the superstars who obviously do through there gravity i.e. attract so much defense and play because they already heavily valued - Wighton / papalii
Nic Cotric - honestly his defensive reads and runs always come at an opportune time and you can feel a bit safer defending on a wing with him outside you. Though with whats hes being paid you could argue that hes no longer in the undervalued card, i still think he has a great impact on the line around him.
Robert Lui and to a lesser extent sutton - There work in the middle often goes unsung - Robert Lui has been phenomenal over the pass year or two, with the amount of defensive work he does both laterally and pushing up, in addition he doesnt take the josh papalii third or fourth hit up when we are already rolling forward (josh also does tough stuff too as he does all the stuff) but he rarely gets glory ftp runs just hard runs. Sutton as well.

Sia - I know we have a very full middle rotation but pre injury he sets the line speed, has heavy contact and drives a good kick chase flogging himself for twenty minutes, honestly against the good teams i think we need him to ensure we dont get blown out early.

My favourite all time - Nigel Plum - a lot thought he was a plodder, but his work and contact in the middle slowed the other side down so much, it didnt come up in stats but him on the field we looked like a reasonable defensive middle, without him we were like a paper towel at times.

I havent watched a great deal of league outside of raiders games for a while with life being busier and all, but this is where imo our recruitment needs to go on (besides the obvious needs for a quality outside back), players who add value to the teams as a whole not just big names, for the record I think we have been doing a very good job of it post stick.
Robert Lui? You mean Dunamis right?
Robert Lui most definitely didn't make players around him better. However he often made them look better because he was so bloody awful himself.
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Re: Players who make players around them better

Post by Botman »

God Mode Terry Campese has Trevor Thurling hailed on this site as one of the most under-rated players in history...
That's right up there with the best of them.
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Re: Players who make players around them better

Post by The Nickman »

Botman wrote: September 23, 2020, 10:35 am God Mode Terry Campese has Trevor Thurling hailed on this site as one of the most under-rated players in history...
That's right up there with the best of them.
He also turned Colin Best from a good 7-star player to a nine and a half star general.
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Re: Players who make players around them better

Post by bonehead »

Yeah in my watching days,
Joey John's is the no.1 example, guys I grew up with played in his teams said they wouldn't believe half of what he did if they didn't experience it themselves like he was onfield coach.
Ricky Stuart for similar reasons could ensure the ball got to exactly where it needed to be invariably at the right time.
Campo, not only did he physically carry our side but again his ability to guide the play was top shelf and the belief he gave average players to play at their peak was unbelievable


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Re: Players who make players around them better

Post by greeneyed »

Northern Raider wrote:
Finchy wrote: September 23, 2020, 10:17 am
papabear wrote: September 23, 2020, 9:56 am https://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/15/maga ... ier-t.html

Its an interesting article, and it is where I think the raiders could probably get the most improvement relative to other sides in a salary cap era.

Everyone looks at super coach type stats, tackle, mis tackles, tries, try assists, try causes line break cases etc etc.

For me there is a lot of value in the players that appear to make others around them better. I am just going off the eye test, but to really know would be if you had some good on/off stats with players on and off the field, the problem with that is the backline largely stays them same and rotations of middle is similar enough that is impacted also by who your playing against and how fresh they are.

So just going on the eye test of some players who always played imo selfishly for themselves, tell tale signs of this is a low percentage dummy half try, a **** early kick, a big money ball pass that isnt on.
- Kurt gidley - tried hard but took a selfish option from dummy half so many times.
- Robbie Farah - talented but see above.
- Jarryd Hayne - he could through a garbage pass over the sideline like it was no ones business.
- Mitchell Moses


In the raiders from my eye test, these guys take a selfish option too often for me.
John Bateman - Those kicks. Indefensible. He is a guy likely to jam out of the line when its not on just because his head is exploding or run a play at a guy to get even.
Josh Hodgson - Nowhere near as bad as farah, but **** me he runs some **** attacking sets through him when the ball needs space.

My eye test for guys how make those around them better. I am leaving out the superstars who obviously do through there gravity i.e. attract so much defense and play because they already heavily valued - Wighton / papalii
Nic Cotric - honestly his defensive reads and runs always come at an opportune time and you can feel a bit safer defending on a wing with him outside you. Though with whats hes being paid you could argue that hes no longer in the undervalued card, i still think he has a great impact on the line around him.
Robert Lui and to a lesser extent sutton - There work in the middle often goes unsung - Robert Lui has been phenomenal over the pass year or two, with the amount of defensive work he does both laterally and pushing up, in addition he doesnt take the josh papalii third or fourth hit up when we are already rolling forward (josh also does tough stuff too as he does all the stuff) but he rarely gets glory ftp runs just hard runs. Sutton as well.

Sia - I know we have a very full middle rotation but pre injury he sets the line speed, has heavy contact and drives a good kick chase flogging himself for twenty minutes, honestly against the good teams i think we need him to ensure we dont get blown out early.

My favourite all time - Nigel Plum - a lot thought he was a plodder, but his work and contact in the middle slowed the other side down so much, it didnt come up in stats but him on the field we looked like a reasonable defensive middle, without him we were like a paper towel at times.

I havent watched a great deal of league outside of raiders games for a while with life being busier and all, but this is where imo our recruitment needs to go on (besides the obvious needs for a quality outside back), players who add value to the teams as a whole not just big names, for the record I think we have been doing a very good job of it post stick.
Robert Lui? You mean Dunamis right?
Robert Lui most definitely didn't make players around him better. However he often made them look better because he was so bloody awful himself.
That did make me chuckle.


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Re: Players who make players around them better

Post by BadnMean »

Northern Raider wrote: September 23, 2020, 10:10 am Good old Nigel Plum. One of my all time favourite Raiders. Closest thing I've seen to a concrete wall in defense. Unfortunately he was one dimensional in that respect and didn't offer much with the ball.
My Penrif mates loved him. He has a year or two there where he managed to make some yards alongisde smashing every tackle in sight.
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Re: Players who make players around them better

Post by BadnMean »

Botman wrote: September 23, 2020, 10:35 am God Mode Terry Campese has Trevor Thurling hailed on this site as one of the most under-rated players in history...
That's right up there with the best of them.
He made Colin Best and Monoghan look like world beaters too- they both had their talents but were dynamite with Campo passing/kicking for them.
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Re: Players who make players around them better

Post by papabear »

Botman wrote: September 23, 2020, 10:15 am Im not sure i understand this thread...

Based on the intro, i would say I dont trust the eyes of anyone who thinks JB doesnt make the players around him and his team better.
He's the quintessential example of this.

But then we've got Nigel Plum being held up as a player who did this... i liked the guy a lot and i wasnt as down on him as others either, but he hit blokes and hit em hard... he didnt make any better around him.

Strange stuff.
A good hard hit often leads to a slow play the ball, improving others around you, other forwards don’t run at him as hard or change their line and the middles know he’s got his space covered...

All underrated things that help others in the side.
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Re: Players who make players around them better

Post by papabear »

Finchy wrote: September 23, 2020, 10:17 am
papabear wrote: September 23, 2020, 9:56 am https://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/15/maga ... ier-t.html

Its an interesting article, and it is where I think the raiders could probably get the most improvement relative to other sides in a salary cap era.

Everyone looks at super coach type stats, tackle, mis tackles, tries, try assists, try causes line break cases etc etc.

For me there is a lot of value in the players that appear to make others around them better. I am just going off the eye test, but to really know would be if you had some good on/off stats with players on and off the field, the problem with that is the backline largely stays them same and rotations of middle is similar enough that is impacted also by who your playing against and how fresh they are.

So just going on the eye test of some players who always played imo selfishly for themselves, tell tale signs of this is a low percentage dummy half try, a **** early kick, a big money ball pass that isnt on.
- Kurt gidley - tried hard but took a selfish option from dummy half so many times.
- Robbie Farah - talented but see above.
- Jarryd Hayne - he could through a garbage pass over the sideline like it was no ones business.
- Mitchell Moses


In the raiders from my eye test, these guys take a selfish option too often for me.
John Bateman - Those kicks. Indefensible. He is a guy likely to jam out of the line when its not on just because his head is exploding or run a play at a guy to get even.
Josh Hodgson - Nowhere near as bad as farah, but **** me he runs some **** attacking sets through him when the ball needs space.

My eye test for guys how make those around them better. I am leaving out the superstars who obviously do through there gravity i.e. attract so much defense and play because they already heavily valued - Wighton / papalii
Nic Cotric - honestly his defensive reads and runs always come at an opportune time and you can feel a bit safer defending on a wing with him outside you. Though with whats hes being paid you could argue that hes no longer in the undervalued card, i still think he has a great impact on the line around him.
Robert Lui and to a lesser extent sutton - There work in the middle often goes unsung - Robert Lui has been phenomenal over the pass year or two, with the amount of defensive work he does both laterally and pushing up, in addition he doesnt take the josh papalii third or fourth hit up when we are already rolling forward (josh also does tough stuff too as he does all the stuff) but he rarely gets glory ftp runs just hard runs. Sutton as well.

Sia - I know we have a very full middle rotation but pre injury he sets the line speed, has heavy contact and drives a good kick chase flogging himself for twenty minutes, honestly against the good teams i think we need him to ensure we dont get blown out early.

My favourite all time - Nigel Plum - a lot thought he was a plodder, but his work and contact in the middle slowed the other side down so much, it didnt come up in stats but him on the field we looked like a reasonable defensive middle, without him we were like a paper towel at times.

I havent watched a great deal of league outside of raiders games for a while with life being busier and all, but this is where imo our recruitment needs to go on (besides the obvious needs for a quality outside back), players who add value to the teams as a whole not just big names, for the record I think we have been doing a very good job of it post stick.
Robert Lui? You mean Dunamis right?
Quite right, Robert certainly didn’t..
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Re: Players who make players around them better

Post by papabear »

Canberra Milk wrote: September 23, 2020, 10:31 am That article is complicated

I'm not sure if this is the same thing the author means, but Joey Johns was the best player I've ever seen to make everyone better. Remember that season where Newcastle were garbage while he was injured, then he came back and all these rubbish players looked like world beaters. Ricky Stuart for the Raiders too.

He seems to be talking specifically about not taking the selfish play, and minimising an opposition's effectiveness.

I suspect Soliola would be one. Great line speed and commitment, which is hard to measure but would show up in general defensive effectiveness. Again though that may be to do with leadership which I'm not sure is what the author means

Interestingly, some positions should play selfishly. Like a soccer striker, should have an eye for goal and if too hesitant about possibly passing etc, may diminish their effectiveness. Even they though could potentially play like this Battier guy and find ways to improve the scoring rates of other players. It's complicated. I'm not sure the NRL is at that level of hyper-analysis yet, as per this article.
I agree with Joey johns, though it’s kind of like michael Jordan, and similar to wighton and papalii these guys are great - to be a premiership for force, your top line players need to be really quality like this...(though they already get accolades and a blind monkey can Identify them :)) I am just more looking at the regular players you need to perform and get value for in the salary cap to be a good team.

For example we got CHN on a good deal I imagine due to his history, but not having that escapade and his value is obvious in his line breaks, metres per run and other more obvious stats and eye test...

Whereas imo the players you want in your side to get valued are the team improving things that don’t show up in the stat sheet so much so they can cost slightly less then a more glory filled player.
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Re: Players who make players around them better

Post by Seiffert82 »

Papabear touched on this, but there are a few ways players can make those around them better. I guess some examples are:
- setting up others in attack (with a great passing or kicking game)
- great communication in calling plays or organising the defence
- being a dominant ball carrier, opening up space for others in subsequent tackles
- being a punishing defender
- providing leadership and motivation
- doing those one percenters, like kick pressure and kick chasing, cover tackles, setting the linespeed, working hard in defence from the inside, being in position for kick returns etc

I reckon we've got quite a few players that tick one or more of those boxes. Whitehead is an absolute standout for me, as are Papalii and Wighton. Jack is maybe 1-2 unforced errors a game away from being one of the elite players in the comp.

CNK gets bagged for not playing like Tedesco with the ball, but I reckon his teammates absolutely appreciate everything he brings to the team, including his positioning for kick returns and tying our defensive line together. Gone are the days of having Reece Robinson, the fastest bloke on the ground, yet somehow miraculously 20 metres away from where a try is being scored, as our last line of defence.
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Re: Players who make players around them better

Post by papabear »

Whitehead definitely!

Not only for his defence / covering defense.

But in attack he can throw a great ball and put a great kick in, he’s like a wade graham but probably not paid anywhere near the same..
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Re: Players who make players around them better

Post by Ruben Daley »

The Nickman wrote: September 23, 2020, 10:38 am
Botman wrote: September 23, 2020, 10:35 am God Mode Terry Campese has Trevor Thurling hailed on this site as one of the most under-rated players in history...
That's right up there with the best of them.
He also turned Colin Best from a good 7-star player to a nine and a half star general.
And Joe Picker.

Glad Whitehead has been mentioned because he’s the bloke with the highest influence for his level of underratedness ever, I reckon.

I’d also say Schicofske was underrated in this area. Did a lot to make other guys’ jobs easier.
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Re: Players who make players around them better

Post by The Nickman »

Anybody else remember Nathan Sologinkin?
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Re: Players who make players around them better

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how could we forget?
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EXEC quote_post
WHERE UserName = 'Aknalkfgnaa' OR 'Yeah Raiders' OR 'Billy B'
EXEC RAND(good_grief; cheak_notes; uh82cit;)

GO;
The Nickman
Mal Meninga
Posts: 45495
Joined: June 25, 2012, 9:53 am
Favourite Player: Hodgo
Location: Rockhampton, Central Queensland

Re: Players who make players around them better

Post by The Nickman »

Yeah, what a great name.
Image
2012 Golden Boogs Newbie of the Year
2013 'Nella Awards Best Punter
2013 Boogs Thread of the Year ~ The Betting Thread
2014 Boogs Matthew Elliott Award Winner
2014 Boogs some award with Hanbush
User avatar
Seiffert82
Mal Meninga
Posts: 23814
Joined: March 17, 2007, 12:24 pm
Favourite Player: Bay56

Re: Players who make players around them better

Post by Seiffert82 »

What, Nathan?
The Nickman
Mal Meninga
Posts: 45495
Joined: June 25, 2012, 9:53 am
Favourite Player: Hodgo
Location: Rockhampton, Central Queensland

Re: Players who make players around them better

Post by The Nickman »

Yeah, it's fantastic.
Image
2012 Golden Boogs Newbie of the Year
2013 'Nella Awards Best Punter
2013 Boogs Thread of the Year ~ The Betting Thread
2014 Boogs Matthew Elliott Award Winner
2014 Boogs some award with Hanbush
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