julian87 wrote: ↑June 2, 2019, 9:09 am
I think the positive fat outweighs the negative. And being a 10 year first grader he’d have a pretty big cap dispensation now wouldn’t he?
Agreed
There is a few differences between Croker and Williams
1. Croker isn’t the worst defender for his position in the league
2. Croker has shown he can be a good NRL defender, Willaims has never for any period beyond 1-2 games been anything but garbage
3. As this post says, Croker has significant strengths in attack that help considerable offset if not outweigh his defensive issues, a luxury Sam Williams does not enjoy
Croker needs to lift his game, no questions about that. But comps to Sam williams are lazy
TongueFTW wrote: ↑June 2, 2019, 9:47 am
What a silly thread.
I have said before that Croker is not a rep level centre, but he is very solid and reliable at NRL level. He is a little out of form at the moment, but he has enough runs on the board to get back into form in first grade. In that last play from the Dogs last night - you can see him sprinting across from the left side to try and make a tackle on the opposite side of the ground.
Not only that - he was literally the last person to leave the ground last night. It was crazy - we were finishing our beers and watching him, he want to every single Raiders fan and left the ground around 45 minutes after full time. Such a good bloke.
See I didn’t realise that.... if I knew he hung around after games talking to fans I’d overlook the fact he can’t tackle, bombs tries and is kicking poorly. Silly me!
julian87 wrote: ↑June 2, 2019, 9:09 am
I think the positive fat outweighs the negative. And being a 10 year first grader he’d have a pretty big cap dispensation now wouldn’t he?
Agreed
There is a few differences between Croker and Williams
1. Croker isn’t the worst defender for his position in the league
2. Croker has shown he can be a good NRL defender, Willaims has never for any period beyond 1-2 games been anything but garbage
3. As this post says, Croker has significant strengths in attack that help considerable offset if not outweigh his defensive issues, a luxury Sam Williams does not enjoy
Croker needs to lift his game, no questions about that. But comps to Sam williams are lazy
Can you name 3 worse defenders at centre that have played 100+ first grade games?
What are these significant attacking strengths you speak of? I can't remember him breaking the line this year. He has made a couple of nice passes to put his outside man over, but he also had a Boogs moment against the Rabbits.
gergreg wrote: ↑June 2, 2019, 9:01 am
Would anybody trade him for Moses Mbye?
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I couldn't believe some likely Origin teams had Mbye as an option in the 14. He's living off reputation although I have no idea how he got this reputation in the first place.
julian87 wrote: ↑June 2, 2019, 9:09 am
I think the positive fat outweighs the negative. And being a 10 year first grader he’d have a pretty big cap dispensation now wouldn’t he?
Agreed
There is a few differences between Croker and Williams
1. Croker isn’t the worst defender for his position in the league
2. Croker has shown he can be a good NRL defender, Willaims has never for any period beyond 1-2 games been anything but garbage
3. As this post says, Croker has significant strengths in attack that help considerable offset if not outweigh his defensive issues, a luxury Sam Williams does not enjoy
Croker needs to lift his game, no questions about that. But comps to Sam williams are lazy
Can you name 3 worse defenders at centre that have played 100+ first grade games?
What are these significant attacking strengths you speak of? I can't remember him breaking the line this year. He has made a couple of nice passes to put his outside man over, but he also had a Boogs moment against the Rabbits.
Gagai, peachey, O’neil
I’d probably get close to 10 if I needed too
He’s got 8 line breaks this year, equal second in the league for centres
As somebody who has been fairly critical of Croker's defence in the past, I think many are badly overreacting. I do think he's had a few bad games recently and needs to improve, and I do also think there is a reasonable debate around who our best centres are at full strength. But I wouldn't be rushing to move him on and I still believe he's one of the better centres in the game. People have awfully short memories around here.
Roger Kenworthy wrote: ↑June 2, 2019, 11:42 am
but he also had a Boogs moment against the Rabbits.
You're acting like he spilled it cold with the line open and no-one around, not having the ball ripped out of his hands by the opposition and then the referees making the incorrect call.
And to all the people who doubted me, hello to them as well. - Mark Webber, Raiders Ballboy and Unluckiest F1 Driver Ever
I'm attacking in the right way, instead of just...attacking in the general direction. - Max Aaron (also eerily apropos for the Green Machine)
julian87 wrote: ↑June 2, 2019, 9:09 am
I think the positive fat outweighs the negative. And being a 10 year first grader he’d have a pretty big cap dispensation now wouldn’t he?
Agreed
There is a few differences between Croker and Williams
1. Croker isn’t the worst defender for his position in the league
2. Croker has shown he can be a good NRL defender, Willaims has never for any period beyond 1-2 games been anything but garbage
3. As this post says, Croker has significant strengths in attack that help considerable offset if not outweigh his defensive issues, a luxury Sam Williams does not enjoy
Croker needs to lift his game, no questions about that. But comps to Sam williams are lazy
Can you name 3 worse defenders at centre that have played 100+ first grade games?
What are these significant attacking strengths you speak of? I can't remember him breaking the line this year. He has made a couple of nice passes to put his outside man over, but he also had a Boogs moment against the Rabbits.
Gagai, peachey, O’neil
I’d probably get close to 10 if I needed too
He’s got 8 line breaks this year, equal second in the league for centres
*yawn*
Can you make them harder next time?
O'Neil I'll pay. The other 2 are comparable to Croker.
julian87 wrote: ↑June 2, 2019, 9:09 am
I think the positive fat outweighs the negative. And being a 10 year first grader he’d have a pretty big cap dispensation now wouldn’t he?
Agreed
There is a few differences between Croker and Williams
1. Croker isn’t the worst defender for his position in the league
2. Croker has shown he can be a good NRL defender, Willaims has never for any period beyond 1-2 games been anything but garbage
3. As this post says, Croker has significant strengths in attack that help considerable offset if not outweigh his defensive issues, a luxury Sam Williams does not enjoy
Croker needs to lift his game, no questions about that. But comps to Sam williams are lazy
Can you name 3 worse defenders at centre that have played 100+ first grade games?
What are these significant attacking strengths you speak of? I can't remember him breaking the line this year. He has made a couple of nice passes to put his outside man over, but he also had a Boogs moment against the Rabbits.
Gagai, peachey, O’neil
I’d probably get close to 10 if I needed too
He’s got 8 line breaks this year, equal second in the league for centres
*yawn*
Can you make them harder next time?
O'Neil I'll pay. The other 2 are comparable to Croker.
All three named played Origin last year... and if by your standards, Croker is a better defender than one and comparable to two then I don't think he's doing too bad. Also, James Roberts is a worse defender than Croker and it's not even up for debate.
Lots of people once again throwing up the warm and fuzzies as reasons to keep Croker on.
How about actual objective footballing reasons? Instead of the Dennis Denuto “vibe”.
There should at least be a conversation as to whether, after 10 years of FG, he is the answer at left centre FROM A FOOTBALLING PERSPECTIVE. Not as a captain/goalkicker/good bloke/local junior. But as a tackle misser, try bomber, wet lettuce runner.
If we can get someone to do the job better (and cheaper) - and I’ve got absolutely no doubt we can - then why wouldn’t we at least consider moving his mediocre talents along in the interests of improving overall and winning a premiership??
Rickmando wrote:Lots of people once again throwing up the warm and fuzzies as reasons to keep Croker on.
How about actual objective footballing reasons? Instead of the Dennis Denuto “vibe”.
There should at least be a conversation as to whether, after 10 years of FG, he is the answer at left centre FROM A FOOTBALLING PERSPECTIVE. Not as a captain/goalkicker/good bloke/local junior. But as a tackle misser, try bomber, wet lettuce runner.
If we can get someone to do the job better (and cheaper) - and I’ve got absolutely no doubt we can - then why wouldn’t we at least consider moving his mediocre talents along in the interests of improving overall and winning a premiership??
Did you even read any of the posts above before posting this rambling mess?
Rickmando wrote:Lots of people once again throwing up the warm and fuzzies as reasons to keep Croker on.
How about actual objective footballing reasons? Instead of the Dennis Denuto “vibe”.
There should at least be a conversation as to whether, after 10 years of FG, he is the answer at left centre FROM A FOOTBALLING PERSPECTIVE. Not as a captain/goalkicker/good bloke/local junior. But as a tackle misser, try bomber, wet lettuce runner.
If we can get someone to do the job better (and cheaper) - and I’ve got absolutely no doubt we can - then why wouldn’t we at least consider moving his mediocre talents along in the interests of improving overall and winning a premiership??
Did you even read any of the posts above before posting this rambling mess?
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Sure did. Hardly rambling, or a mess.
Didn’t see many people defending Croker’s football ability. Just naming a lot of other attributes that don’t really help us get the 2 competition points each week.
I know it may be hard to stomach for some, but in your minds eye I want you to picture Croker lining up for another team at left centre in 2020.... what do you think BJ would do to him? We would collectively be screaming to get the ball to him every single set to exploit Croker’s weak defence!
gergreg wrote: ↑June 2, 2019, 9:01 am
Would anybody trade him for Moses Mbye?
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I couldn't believe some likely Origin teams had Mbye as an option in the 14. He's living off reputation although I have no idea how he got this reputation in the first place.
Mbye was selected for Origin
Yes, that was my point. Sure they play different positions but I'd have Croker in my side over Mbye any day of the week. Also agree on the other names tossed around as worse defenders than Croker. It's the toughest position on the field to defend.
Could he do better? Absolutely. And he has done so in the past and can surely regain the confidence to be better, but as I've said previously he needs some coaching assistance. Every time the ball comes towards him he is looking to come in. It's his only play. He needs to be taught that that is not his only option. He also needs to stop ball watching so much and look up, and left and right to get a better perspective of the right play to do.
1. We don’t have anyone better, especially with Beej out
2. He’s one of the better attacking centres in the game, he can create for himself and he others and this team has an absolute NEED for creative edge players
3. He is a below average defender mostly to average at his best. His average game is fine, you’d like it to be better but it’s not “formulate the entire attacking plan to attack him” the way it is for others
4. And just to repeat, we don’t have anyone better
PigRickman wrote: ↑June 2, 2019, 3:09 pm
The objective reasons for keeping Croker:
1. We don’t have anyone better, especially with Beej out
2. He’s one of the better attacking centres in the game, he can create for himself and he others and this team has an absolute NEED for creative edge players
3. He is a below average defender mostly to average at his best. His average game is fine, you’d like it to be better but it’s not “formulate the entire attacking plan to attack him” the way it is for others
4. And just to repeat, we don’t have anyone better
I get it. But why don’t we find someone better - if not now, then in 2020 and beyond. Shouldn’t we always be looking to improve?
We have had average play (at best) out of his left centre position for the best part of a decade - and he has shown he is unable to fix his bad defensive habits. Well coached sides absolutely target his liabilities - they watch video, it’s not hard to see.
Why can’t we consider upgrading, or at worst getting similar output for cheaper to upgrade other positions?
PigRickman wrote:The objective reasons for keeping Croker:
1. We don’t have anyone better, especially with Beej out
2. He’s one of the better attacking centres in the game, he can create for himself and he others and this team has an absolute NEED for creative edge players
3. He is a below average defender mostly to average at his best. His average game is fine, you’d like it to be better but it’s not “formulate the entire attacking plan to attack him” the way it is for others
4. And just to repeat, we don’t have anyone better
He's also one of the better 'penalty pullers' in the competition and the best in our side by some margin. Very underrated skill.
PigRickman wrote: ↑June 2, 2019, 3:09 pm
The objective reasons for keeping Croker:
1. We don’t have anyone better, especially with Beej out
2. He’s one of the better attacking centres in the game, he can create for himself and he others and this team has an absolute NEED for creative edge players
3. He is a below average defender mostly to average at his best. His average game is fine, you’d like it to be better but it’s not “formulate the entire attacking plan to attack him” the way it is for others
4. And just to repeat, we don’t have anyone better
I get it. But why don’t we find someone better - if not now, then in 2020 and beyond. Shouldn’t we always be looking to improve?
We have had average play (at best) out of his left centre position for the best part of a decade - and he has shown he is unable to fix his bad defensive habits. Well coached sides absolutely target his liabilities - they watch video, it’s not hard to see.
Why can’t we consider upgrading, or at worst getting similar output for cheaper to upgrade other positions?
We should, I firmly believe that you should always be looking to upgrade at the very position. And then you make cost analysis based decisions to know if the upgrade is worth it
But I don’t agree at all with your summation of croker’s play. I don’t think he’s nearly as bad as you say and I don’t think he gets targeted in the way you think he does either.
If we can upgrade him, we should. We just differ on how many upgrades on a Croker there is. And fwiw, if Croker left the club this year, he isn’t going to the ESL, just gaze up and down the team sheets from the last 2 weeks, there is a lot of clubs who’d take him in a heartbeat
Peachey can't even hold down a starting spot at the titans. He's only ever effective when given a stacked deck against tired players in the middle.
If I'm picking a club centre it's Croker over Peachey without question.
zim wrote: ↑June 2, 2019, 4:34 pm
Peachey can't even hold down a starting spot at the titans. He's only ever effective when given a stacked deck against tired players in the middle.
If I'm picking a club centre it's Croker over Peachey without question.
Yeah and gagai too
Now I’ll say this for Gagai, he’s an outrageously good winger at state level, and even in defence... it’s weird, but every so often you get those dudes who just deliver at rep level
But as club game at centre? Croker over Gagai for me. In fact Croker’s roasted his **** a number of times
If Croker has a Titans jersey today, they win. There was a Tigers game earlier this year where Marsters missed 3 goals and they lost because of it. People are seriously undervaluing the importance of a quality goal kicker.
This thread is over the top. Toots is very polarising. Some love to stick the knife in
Others believe he is immune to criticism.
He is a good runner of the football, is good under the high ball, good at chasing through grubbers, and good at earning penalties rucking it out of our half.
He usually has quite safe hands but has dropped a few of late.
He is usually an excellent goal kicker though has been a bit off this year.
He is limited in his ability to create opportunities and space for his wing, but has produced a few pearler passes this year.
He can be a defensive liability, but this has improved over the years.
Overall, I think he has continued to improve as a player, but is a little out of form in aspects of his game at the moment. He's certainly a long way off being sacked, but I wouldn't retain him at the risk of losing some of our more impacting players either.
I've always thought that he makes an average centre but would have made a rep level winger. Going to the wing eliminates the main weaknesses in his game, and gives him more of an opportunity to play to his strengths.
The centers in the NRL last week were: Jennings, Hoffman, Whare, Blake, Walker, Parker, Arthars, Kelly, Hunt, Ramien, Tupou, Mitchell, Croker, Cotric, O’Neill, Opacic, Hiku, Herbert, Staggs, Shibasaki, Lowe, Gagai, Momirovski, Marsters, Montoya, Hopoate, Chambers, Seve, Aitken, Lafai, Xerri and Morris.
The only biggish names that I can think of that are out are Roberts, Leilua, Scott and Burns. I think as an all round centre Croker is definitely top 3rd on that list. And that’s not even taking kicking into consideration tbh. He’s good in attack imo, one of the best attacking kick chasers in the game versatile enough to shift to the wing mid game without worry and has proven in the past his defense can be a lot better than it is now. 11th year of first grade next season means a pretty heavy salary cap percentage discounted (can’t find this information anywhere though right now). Now if this has changed or been cut dramatically it changes things a bit, but this just isn’t even a question atm.