Jack Wighton confirms switch to five eighth

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Re: Jack Wighton confirms switch to five eighth

Post by Northern Raider » May 15, 2019, 9:29 pm

bonehead wrote:
May 15, 2019, 9:26 pm
Laurie Daley saying Josh Morris is the favourite for that right centre, Wighton in the frame, Croker's defence suspect.
Doesn't pass either.
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Re: Jack Wighton confirms switch to five eighth

Post by PigRickman » May 15, 2019, 9:29 pm

bonehead wrote:
May 15, 2019, 9:26 pm
Laurie Daley saying Josh Morris is the favourite for that right centre, Wighton in the frame, Croker's defence suspect.
also he's a **** captain, cant pass and cant kick
So y'know...

Oh **** my **** ****... **** ITALL
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Re: Jack Wighton confirms switch to five eighth

Post by Northern Raider » May 15, 2019, 9:30 pm

Think Boney set us up there. :lol:
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Re: Jack Wighton confirms switch to five eighth

Post by PigRickman » May 15, 2019, 9:31 pm

that's as old school as it gets. Beaten by a nose!
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Re: Jack Wighton confirms switch to five eighth

Post by edwahu » May 15, 2019, 9:36 pm

bonehead wrote:
May 15, 2019, 9:26 pm
Laurie Daley saying Josh Morris is the favourite for that right centre, Wighton in the frame, Croker's defence suspect.
I don't think he is in the loop anymore.

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Re: Jack Wighton confirms switch to five eighth

Post by papabear » May 16, 2019, 3:26 pm

Josh Morris really?

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Re: Jack Wighton confirms switch to five eighth

Post by Roger Kenworthy » May 16, 2019, 4:48 pm

PigRickman wrote:
May 15, 2019, 9:29 pm
bonehead wrote:
May 15, 2019, 9:26 pm
Laurie Daley saying Josh Morris is the favourite for that right centre, Wighton in the frame, Croker's defence suspect.
also he's a **** captain, cant pass and cant kick
So y'know...

Oh **** my **** ****... **** ITALL
Your fav defensive stats back up he's the weaker defender.

https://www.nrl.com/news/2019/05/15/ran ... 19-origin/

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Re: Jack Wighton confirms switch to five eighth

Post by PigRickman » May 16, 2019, 7:22 pm

Roger Kenworthy wrote:
May 16, 2019, 4:48 pm
PigRickman wrote:
May 15, 2019, 9:29 pm
bonehead wrote:
May 15, 2019, 9:26 pm
Laurie Daley saying Josh Morris is the favourite for that right centre, Wighton in the frame, Croker's defence suspect.
also he's a **** captain, cant pass and cant kick
So y'know...

Oh **** my **** ****... **** ITALL
Your fav defensive stats back up he's the weaker defender.

https://www.nrl.com/news/2019/05/15/ran ... 19-origin/
as per Fox Sports Stat Lab.
He's basically in contention for a position against Ramien, Dugan, Peachey and Morris. With Latrell Mitchell having his mortgage paid clean off on his position.

So lets compare like for like...

Croker 6 TC, 8 LBC, 80% TE, 7 Errors, 3 Pens, 4 T, 2 TA, 8 LB and 2 LBA
Dugan 6 TC, 3 LBC, 79% TE, 19 Errors, 3 Pens, 3 T, 2 TA, 4 LB and 2 LBA
Morris 5 TC, 5 LBC, 87% TE, 8 Errors, 1 Pens, 5 T, 1 TA, 8 LB and 1 LBA
Peachey 6 TC, 7 LBC, 79% TE, 10 Errors, 11 Pens, 2 T, 2 TA, 3 LB and 2 LBA
Ramien 1 TC, 6 LBC, 83% TE, 10 Errors, 0 Pens, 1 T, 0 TA, 3 LB and 0 LBA

Now i dont know if his stats merit origin selection, but this is SOO we're talking about his defensively there isnt much between them. His TC is basically on par with everyone but Ramien (who offers just nothing on the offensive end, statistically), his LBC are definitely a worry from a SOO selection point but that's some what offset by his lack of errors and penalties. He's also clearly very strong in attack so that offsets things a little

Based off that, i dont think i'd pick Croker, but id pick him before Ramien, Peachey and Dugan. Morris looks like the right option, statistically.
The List - K.Love, Keno, Zippy's tennis angels, LA Lakers, Noah, Boozer, Lucy's horse tips, Colts, Lucy, Kevin Proctor, Dr Zaius, TR, Tinfoil hatted Gangers and Woody, anyone in Raiders HQ who can point to QBN on a map....

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Re: Jack Wighton confirms switch to five eighth

Post by bonehead » May 16, 2019, 8:13 pm

my post above was directly taken from Daley's answer to a caller on the BSB who asked if the josh Morris rumours were true and if Croker was an option
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Re: Jack Wighton confirms switch to five eighth

Post by Roger Kenworthy » May 17, 2019, 7:05 am

PigRickman wrote:
May 16, 2019, 7:22 pm
Roger Kenworthy wrote:
May 16, 2019, 4:48 pm
PigRickman wrote:
May 15, 2019, 9:29 pm
bonehead wrote:
May 15, 2019, 9:26 pm
Laurie Daley saying Josh Morris is the favourite for that right centre, Wighton in the frame, Croker's defence suspect.
also he's a **** captain, cant pass and cant kick
So y'know...

Oh **** my **** ****... **** ITALL
Your fav defensive stats back up he's the weaker defender.

https://www.nrl.com/news/2019/05/15/ran ... 19-origin/
as per Fox Sports Stat Lab.
He's basically in contention for a position against Ramien, Dugan, Peachey and Morris. With Latrell Mitchell having his mortgage paid clean off on his position.

So lets compare like for like...

Croker 6 TC, 8 LBC, 80% TE, 7 Errors, 3 Pens, 4 T, 2 TA, 8 LB and 2 LBA
Dugan 6 TC, 3 LBC, 79% TE, 19 Errors, 3 Pens, 3 T, 2 TA, 4 LB and 2 LBA
Morris 5 TC, 5 LBC, 87% TE, 8 Errors, 1 Pens, 5 T, 1 TA, 8 LB and 1 LBA
Peachey 6 TC, 7 LBC, 79% TE, 10 Errors, 11 Pens, 2 T, 2 TA, 3 LB and 2 LBA
Ramien 1 TC, 6 LBC, 83% TE, 10 Errors, 0 Pens, 1 T, 0 TA, 3 LB and 0 LBA

Now i dont know if his stats merit origin selection, but this is SOO we're talking about his defensively there isnt much between them. His TC is basically on par with everyone but Ramien (who offers just nothing on the offensive end, statistically), his LBC are definitely a worry from a SOO selection point but that's some what offset by his lack of errors and penalties. He's also clearly very strong in attack so that offsets things a little

Based off that, i dont think i'd pick Croker, but id pick him before Ramien, Peachey and Dugan. Morris looks like the right option, statistically.
Interesting that there is only a 0.6% between Williams and Croker in defensive efficiency, yet you think Williams is such a poor defender he needs to be punted from first grade immediately based on his defensive stats.

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Re: Jack Wighton confirms switch to five eighth

Post by edwahu » May 17, 2019, 7:53 am

Defensive stats should be assessed relative to position.

Croker has middle of the pack defensive stats for a centre.

Williams has the worst defensive stats for a half. I mean he has the most line break causes in the entire league across all regular starters in any position.

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Re: Jack Wighton confirms switch to five eighth

Post by Roger Kenworthy » May 17, 2019, 8:08 am

Definitely agree. I just find it odd that we be hammered over the head in one thread with poor defensive stats the be and end all while in another they are treated as no big issue. I for one don't buy into defensive stats telling much of a story, the Knights had the best tackle efficiency towards the end of last year while being the worst defensive team.

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Re: Jack Wighton confirms switch to five eighth

Post by Beejay » May 17, 2019, 8:18 am

Roger Kenworthy wrote:
May 17, 2019, 7:05 am


Interesting that there is only a 0.6% between Williams and Croker in defensive efficiency, yet you think Williams is such a poor defender he needs to be punted from first grade immediately based on his defensive stats.
Defensive efficiency is simply : Tackles / Missed tackles.

It simply serves to show if someone has high missed tackles but also make a gazzillion. The missed tackle stat itself is highly misleading. That percentage means almost nothing.

The truth is for a decently sized bloke, Jarrod Croker has pretty weak contact, and often ends up with a pretty inefficient tackle - whether that gets born out in the stats or not. But he's always getting his body in the way and never actually shirks the contact. His decision making is about average as a first grade centre, not the best but also certainly not the worst. Effort in defence and scramble is high.
Centres and Wingers are constantly having to make difficult decisions in defence due to coming up against a good offensive movement putting them in a 3v2 or worse situation. So 'try contribution' stats end much higher for Centres and Wingers than any other position.

Sam Williams is smaller than Croker, with weaker contact than Croker, and has poorer decision making in the few times he gets isolated. He's also not our Captain, goal kicker and potent attacking player.

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Re: Jack Wighton confirms switch to five eighth

Post by PigRickman » May 17, 2019, 8:40 am

Roger Kenworthy wrote:
May 17, 2019, 7:05 am
Interesting that there is only a 0.6% between Williams and Croker in defensive efficiency, yet you think Williams is such a poor defender he needs to be punted from first grade immediately based on his defensive stats.
Yeah im not really that into TE, it's nothing more than an extension of miss tackles... TE is simply % of tackles made vs attempt, i've spoken at length about why i DGAF about mistackle counts without context, ive said time and time again that LBC and TC are stats that most concern me.
So it's probably not as interesting as you want to think it is.

Also Croker, what ever you think of his defence which may be up for debate, it can not be argued that he doesnt offset at least a good portion of that with supreme attacking prowess. Something Sam Williams absolutely does not offer up.
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Re: Jack Wighton confirms switch to five eighth

Post by PigRickman » May 17, 2019, 8:43 am

edwahu wrote:
May 17, 2019, 7:53 am
Defensive stats should be assessed relative to position.

Croker has middle of the pack defensive stats for a centre.

Williams has the worst defensive stats for a half. I mean he has the most line break causes in the entire league across all regular starters in any position.
Correct.

Actually i should just **** ITALL here, posts above articulate it all pretty well before i lumbered in here like a goon :lol:
Last edited by PigRickman on May 17, 2019, 8:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Matt wrote:
July 18, 2018, 3:49 pm
Edrick Lee 5. Jordan Rapana
Matt wrote:
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Reed Mahoney 9. Josh Hodgson ©
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Re: Jack Wighton confirms switch to five eighth

Post by Roger Kenworthy » May 17, 2019, 8:46 am

PigRickman wrote:
May 17, 2019, 8:40 am
Roger Kenworthy wrote:
May 17, 2019, 7:05 am
Interesting that there is only a 0.6% between Williams and Croker in defensive efficiency, yet you think Williams is such a poor defender he needs to be punted from first grade immediately based on his defensive stats.
Yeah im not really that into TE, it's nothing more than an extension of miss tackles... TE is simply % of tackles made vs attempt, i've spoken at length about why i DGAF about mistackle counts without context, ive said time and time again that LBC and TC are stats that most concern me.
So it's probably not as interesting as you want to think it is.

Also Croker, what ever you think of his defence which may be up for debate, it can not be argued that he doesnt offset at least a good portion of that with supreme attacking prowess. Something Sam Williams absolutely does not offer up.
LBC and TC can definitely be influenced by poor structures around a player in defense to my mind. How many times over the past couple seasons would it have been defenders in the middle not lining up correctly leading to big overlaps out wide? This was a huge issue with Boyd and Paulo in the side, yet to my mind those try causes would get credited to the halves and three quarters confronted with the overlap. I may be wrong as I'm hardly a stats guru, but I really don't find any individual defensive stats particularly useful. The team stats about which sides of the park are being exploited are far more useful. For tries conceded I'd think we're fairly even this year. It would be interesting to know what sort of average metres are getting made on each side as that is where a defender with poor contact like Williams is being exploited.

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Re: Jack Wighton confirms switch to five eighth

Post by The Rickman » May 17, 2019, 10:48 am

All I'm going to add to this discussion is that Jarrod Croker being a poor defender is a myth and has always been a myth. He defends quite fine when the guy inside him isn't an incompetent bafoon, shuts down PLENTY of attacking raids. He and Cotric work quite well together, but hot tip: they're marking centres and wingers, they're going to have tries scored against them eventually.

On the other side of the coin, Sam Williams is a poor defender, although I like how he's bulked up this season and he's at least throwing his body into tackles unlike Blake "Hey, look at me" Austin. He's still a poor defender, and I don't need to see any stats to confirm that.
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Re: Jack Wighton confirms switch to five eighth

Post by Roger Kenworthy » May 17, 2019, 10:59 am

Croker is a middle of the road defender when it comes to contact. The difference is the past few years we've had a system on our left edge where this is covered by a pretty good system defensively. I'd say there were times in the past where he was closer to poor than middle of the road overall defensively, but that hasn't been the case since around 2014 or 2015 and that was majorly because our defensive systems were breaking down and letting him get isolated. He's probably only had 5 - 10 clangers where his opposite ran over the top of him so that has been exaggerated (probably by me at the time).
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Re: Jack Wighton confirms switch to five eighth

Post by BadnMean » May 17, 2019, 11:00 am

Beejay wrote:
May 17, 2019, 8:18 am
Roger Kenworthy wrote:
May 17, 2019, 7:05 am


Interesting that there is only a 0.6% between Williams and Croker in defensive efficiency, yet you think Williams is such a poor defender he needs to be punted from first grade immediately based on his defensive stats.
Defensive efficiency is simply : Tackles / Missed tackles.

It simply serves to show if someone has high missed tackles but also make a gazzillion. The missed tackle stat itself is highly misleading. That percentage means almost nothing.

The truth is for a decently sized bloke, Jarrod Croker has pretty weak contact, and often ends up with a pretty inefficient tackle - whether that gets born out in the stats or not. But he's always getting his body in the way and never actually shirks the contact. His decision making is about average as a first grade centre, not the best but also certainly not the worst. Effort in defence and scramble is high.
Centres and Wingers are constantly having to make difficult decisions in defence due to coming up against a good offensive movement putting them in a 3v2 or worse situation. So 'try contribution' stats end much higher for Centres and Wingers than any other position.

Sam Williams is smaller than Croker, with weaker contact than Croker, and has poorer decision making in the few times he gets isolated. He's also not our Captain, goal kicker and potent attacking player.
I think Croker has made a marked improvement in his contact this year. I've seen him nail quite a few blokes with ball and all body shots and really put the shoulder into a few others. Looks clear that as captain he's worked and is trying his best to be part of this new defensive mindset.

He'll never be the best defensive centre in the comp but last week aside (where be bounced off one of those attempted big shots) I thought this was perhaps the most impressive defensive year I've seen him have on the eye test.

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Re: Jack Wighton confirms switch to five eighth

Post by BadnMean » May 17, 2019, 11:03 am

The Rickman wrote:
May 17, 2019, 10:48 am
All I'm going to add to this discussion is that Jarrod Croker being a poor defender is a myth and has always been a myth. He defends quite fine when the guy inside him isn't an incompetent bafoon, shuts down PLENTY of attacking raids. He and Cotric work quite well together, but hot tip: they're marking centres and wingers, they're going to have tries scored against them eventually.

On the other side of the coin, Sam Williams is a poor defender, although I like how he's bulked up this season and he's at least throwing his body into tackles unlike Blake "Hey, look at me" Austin. He's still a poor defender, and I don't need to see any stats to confirm that.
Also fair. We expect Cotric, BJ or Jordy Raps to burn one of their opposite numbers most weeks. Doesn't always mean their opposite number is crap, it's just what these guys are good at and some weeks they do it or they are out of a job.

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Re: Jack Wighton confirms switch to five eighth

Post by The Rickman » May 17, 2019, 11:05 am

Roger Kenworthy wrote:
May 17, 2019, 10:59 am
Croker is a middle of the road defender when it comes to contact. The difference is the past few years we've had a system on our left edge where this is covered by a pretty good system defensively. I'd say there were times in the past where he was closer to poor than middle of the road overall defensively, but that hasn't been the case since around 2014 or 2015 and that was majorly because our defensive systems were breaking down and letting him get isolated. He's probably only had 5 - 10 clangers where his opposite ran over the top of him so that has been exaggerated (probably by me at the time).
If you have a poor system on either flank, even the best centres are going to get caught out by their opposite numbers from time to time.

Just look at how much better Joey Leilua looked this season without Austin next to him.
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Re: Jack Wighton confirms switch to five eighth

Post by The Rickman » May 17, 2019, 11:06 am

BadnMean wrote:
May 17, 2019, 11:03 am
The Rickman wrote:
May 17, 2019, 10:48 am
All I'm going to add to this discussion is that Jarrod Croker being a poor defender is a myth and has always been a myth. He defends quite fine when the guy inside him isn't an incompetent bafoon, shuts down PLENTY of attacking raids. He and Cotric work quite well together, but hot tip: they're marking centres and wingers, they're going to have tries scored against them eventually.

On the other side of the coin, Sam Williams is a poor defender, although I like how he's bulked up this season and he's at least throwing his body into tackles unlike Blake "Hey, look at me" Austin. He's still a poor defender, and I don't need to see any stats to confirm that.
Also fair. We expect Cotric, BJ or Jordy Raps to burn one of their opposite numbers most weeks. Doesn't always mean their opposite number is crap, it's just what these guys are good at and some weeks they do it or they are out of a job.
Yup. Absolutely spot on RicknStick.
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Re: Jack Wighton confirms switch to five eighth

Post by Roger Kenworthy » May 17, 2019, 11:12 am

The Rickman wrote:
May 17, 2019, 11:05 am
Roger Kenworthy wrote:
May 17, 2019, 10:59 am
Croker is a middle of the road defender when it comes to contact. The difference is the past few years we've had a system on our left edge where this is covered by a pretty good system defensively. I'd say there were times in the past where he was closer to poor than middle of the road overall defensively, but that hasn't been the case since around 2014 or 2015 and that was majorly because our defensive systems were breaking down and letting him get isolated. He's probably only had 5 - 10 clangers where his opposite ran over the top of him so that has been exaggerated (probably by me at the time).
If you have a poor system on either flank, even the best centres are going to get caught out by their opposite numbers from time to time.

Just look at how much better Joey Leilua looked this season without Austin next to him.
Yup everyone is looking better as a result of our composed defensive line. Having more laterally mobile defenders in the middle makes it harder for attackers to get on the outside of their man and put those fringe defenders in decision making scenarios, who would have thunk it.

Although it is concerning how easily Melbourne and the Roosters were able to exploit us.

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Re: Jack Wighton confirms switch to five eighth

Post by Northern Raider » May 17, 2019, 11:34 am

Just be careful with the Missed Tackles stats. A desparate cover defending effort on an umarked winger diving into the corner counts as a Missed Tackle on the stat sheet. Assisting in a tackle on a player that has barged over the guy next to you for a try also counts as a Missed Tackle. I've learnt this from monitoring live stats during a game.

Also seen plenty of other anomalies e.g. stop a player with a low tackle and if you drop off when your team mates clean him up it also counts. Since then I've not used Missed Tackle counts as much to assess a players defensive abilities. In reality nothing beats the eye test.
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Re: Jack Wighton confirms switch to five eighth

Post by The Rickman » May 17, 2019, 11:38 am

Northern Raider wrote:
May 17, 2019, 11:34 am
Just be careful with the Missed Tackles stats. A desparate cover defending effort on an umarked winger diving into the corner counts as a Missed Tackle on the stat sheet. Assisting in a tackle on a player that has barged over the guy next to you for a try also counts as a Missed Tackle. I've learnt this from monitoring live stats during a game.

Also seen plenty of other anomalies e.g. stop a player with a low tackle and if you drop off when your team mates clean him up it also counts. Since then I've not used Missed Tackle counts as much to assess a players defensive abilities. In reality nothing beats the eye test.
That's a very good point too. I don't think Williams registered a missed tackled for that second-rower who he completely failed to mark up on in the Roosters game who ran into a yawning hole.
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Re: Jack Wighton confirms switch to five eighth

Post by BadnMean » May 17, 2019, 11:46 am

The Rickman wrote:
May 17, 2019, 11:38 am
Northern Raider wrote:
May 17, 2019, 11:34 am
Just be careful with the Missed Tackles stats. A desparate cover defending effort on an umarked winger diving into the corner counts as a Missed Tackle on the stat sheet. Assisting in a tackle on a player that has barged over the guy next to you for a try also counts as a Missed Tackle. I've learnt this from monitoring live stats during a game.

Also seen plenty of other anomalies e.g. stop a player with a low tackle and if you drop off when your team mates clean him up it also counts. Since then I've not used Missed Tackle counts as much to assess a players defensive abilities. In reality nothing beats the eye test.
That's a very good point too. I don't think Williams registered a missed tackled for that second-rower who he completely failed to mark up on in the Roosters game who ran into a yawning hole.
No tackle to speak of. But that goes as a try cause/LB cause yes?

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Re: Jack Wighton confirms switch to five eighth

Post by The Rickman » May 17, 2019, 11:51 am

BadnMean wrote:
May 17, 2019, 11:46 am
The Rickman wrote:
May 17, 2019, 11:38 am
Northern Raider wrote:
May 17, 2019, 11:34 am
Just be careful with the Missed Tackles stats. A desparate cover defending effort on an umarked winger diving into the corner counts as a Missed Tackle on the stat sheet. Assisting in a tackle on a player that has barged over the guy next to you for a try also counts as a Missed Tackle. I've learnt this from monitoring live stats during a game.

Also seen plenty of other anomalies e.g. stop a player with a low tackle and if you drop off when your team mates clean him up it also counts. Since then I've not used Missed Tackle counts as much to assess a players defensive abilities. In reality nothing beats the eye test.
That's a very good point too. I don't think Williams registered a missed tackled for that second-rower who he completely failed to mark up on in the Roosters game who ran into a yawning hole.
No tackle to speak of. But that goes as a try cause/LB cause yes?
No idea, probably. I'm not really sure how they decide those subjective stats.
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Re: Jack Wighton confirms switch to five eighth

Post by Roger Kenworthy » May 17, 2019, 12:06 pm

I think that one was pretty cut and dry a Williams cause.

I remember one on one tackles being a huge stat 10 years ago which seems to have gone the way of the Dodo. Always thought that was a weird one as you had to be put in the position to make one on one tackles to lead it, so that's not saying a great deal about your defensive structure.

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Re: Jack Wighton confirms switch to five eighth

Post by Northern Raider » May 17, 2019, 1:11 pm

I can cop it when a player gets bumped off a tackle. Those things happen to every player and at least they are having a go. I struggle more when they stand in no man's land taking nobody.
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Re: Jack Wighton confirms switch to five eighth

Post by edwahu » May 17, 2019, 2:51 pm

Just on tackle efficiency it also includes tackles which result in an offload. These don't count as misses.

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Re: Jack Wighton confirms switch to five eighth

Post by Ruben Daley » May 17, 2019, 11:34 pm

Totally agree with this. He’s not only been strong shutting down attackers, he’s had periods where he’s changed the momentum with some big shots.

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Re: Jack Wighton confirms switch to five eighth

Post by Raiders_Pat » May 18, 2019, 9:55 am

BadnMean wrote:
May 17, 2019, 11:00 am
I think Croker has made a marked improvement in his contact this year. I've seen him nail quite a few blokes with ball and all body shots and really put the shoulder into a few others. Looks clear that as captain he's worked and is trying his best to be part of this new defensive mindset.

He'll never be the best defensive centre in the comp but last week aside (where be bounced off one of those attempted big shots) I thought this was perhaps the most impressive defensive year I've seen him have on the eye test.
I was a harsh critic of Croker's defence, although this was many years ago now, but his improvement over the years has really impressed me. I've also thought that he's led through his actions very well this year defensively. I think that's what really cements him amongst the top centres in the game for me. He's always had a strong attacking game, but his reliability in defence makes him a complete, all round centre. I can't think of many NRL players I'd prefer in his position at the moment tbh, definitely deserves to be in Origin discussions.

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Re: Jack Wighton confirms switch to five eighth

Post by Green2ooF » May 18, 2019, 11:29 pm

I’m heart broken but getting better every week, what a game Jackie Boi!! Hold your head high.
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Re: Jack Wighton confirms switch to five eighth

Post by BadnMean » May 19, 2019, 1:29 am

He's put a few great digs together in a row now. Good on him. Really standing up.

That kicking game!

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Re: Jack Wighton confirms switch to five eighth

Post by raiderskater » May 19, 2019, 8:22 am

That kick to get the repeat set in the last couple of minutes was absolutely perfect, exactly the kick you want your five eighth to put in.
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