2019 Rd 9 V Roosters: Game Day

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Who will win?

Raiders 13+
1
8%
Raiders 1-12
4
33%
Draw
0
No votes
Roosters 1-12
4
33%
Roosters 13+
3
25%
 
Total votes: 12

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Re: 2019 Rd 9 V Roosters: Game Day

Post by PigRickman » May 14, 2019, 8:49 pm

It's the downtown rule, no?
The official even called our guy out, and he got involved anyways. Basically a high shot at that point, the dude is offside, you call him offside and he involves himself in the play... kind of have to blow the pen in that circumstance.
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Re: 2019 Rd 9 V Roosters: Game Day

Post by greeneyed » May 14, 2019, 9:05 pm

On the day, watching live at the game, at Magic Round, in Brisbane, at Lang Park, when I was there... I thought it was a bad call. And a very late call. But the refs got it right, looking at it later on the replay.
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Re: 2019 Rd 9 V Roosters: Game Day

Post by The Rickman » May 15, 2019, 10:19 am

greeneyed wrote:
May 14, 2019, 8:46 pm
The kicker can't run the off side player back on side. The off side player has to give the opposition player 10 metres space. So they can't get involved. They used to allow the former interpretation, but no longer.
Ahhh ok, I thought that rule must've changed, as the refs always seem to ignore it. That must be why!

Thanks GE.
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Re: 2019 Rd 9 V Roosters: Game Day

Post by kiwi raider » May 15, 2019, 10:44 am

PigRickman wrote:
May 14, 2019, 8:49 pm
It's the downtown rule, no?
The official even called our guy out, and he got involved anyways. Basically a high shot at that point, the dude is offside, you call him offside and he involves himself in the play... kind of have to blow the pen in that circumstance.
don't think our guy(Sutton?) was called out as the ref was going to award the line drop out before he looked over to the touch judge listened to what he had to say then penalised us, Touch judges don't call players out offside in the run of play do they? just communicate with the ref?

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Re: 2019 Rd 9 V Roosters: Game Day

Post by The Rickman » May 15, 2019, 10:49 am

I'm still blown away by the fact the kicker can't put the chasers onside anymore, although I have suspected for a while now that this rule must've changed.
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Re: 2019 Rd 9 V Roosters: Game Day

Post by simo » May 15, 2019, 11:19 am

The Rickman wrote:
May 15, 2019, 10:49 am
I'm still blown away by the fact the kicker can't put the chasers onside anymore, although I have suspected for a while now that this rule must've changed.
Were they within 10 before being run onside?
Dont delete this GE

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Re: 2019 Rd 9 V Roosters: Game Day

Post by The Rickman » May 15, 2019, 11:20 am

simo wrote:
May 15, 2019, 11:19 am
The Rickman wrote:
May 15, 2019, 10:49 am
I'm still blown away by the fact the kicker can't put the chasers onside anymore, although I have suspected for a while now that this rule must've changed.
Were they within 10 before being run onside?
Nope, they were run onside well before they breached the 10.
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Re: 2019 Rd 9 V Roosters: Game Day

Post by simo » May 15, 2019, 11:26 am

The Rickman wrote:
May 15, 2019, 11:20 am
simo wrote:
May 15, 2019, 11:19 am
The Rickman wrote:
May 15, 2019, 10:49 am
I'm still blown away by the fact the kicker can't put the chasers onside anymore, although I have suspected for a while now that this rule must've changed.
Were they within 10 before being run onside?
Nope, they were run onside well before they breached the 10.
Then either the rule has changed ir the refs hate us. I know which i think it is
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Re: 2019 Rd 9 V Roosters: Game Day

Post by PigRickman » May 15, 2019, 12:14 pm

I dont think the refs hate us... that's just illogical.
But at this point its quite clear they are being paid to hold us back. No two ways about it
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Matt wrote:
July 18, 2018, 3:49 pm
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Re: 2019 Rd 9 V Roosters: Game Day

Post by The Rickman » May 15, 2019, 12:57 pm

I think it's obvious to anyone who watches the game as close as I do that the referees have an unconscious bias against the Raiders which, when refereeing our games, causes them to hate us and try and cost us the game. Fortunately for us, we tend to start playing well the second the referees stop cheating and that's when we win games.

This year the referees have obviously been cheating less than previous seasons, although the game on the weekend (as well as the Manly and Storm games) highlight that the referees are still prone to cheating occasionally.
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Re: 2019 Rd 9 V Roosters: Game Day

Post by greeneyed » May 15, 2019, 1:58 pm

Unconscious or unrecognised bias has nothing to do with cheating. By definition, it is unconscious, unrecognised.
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Re: 2019 Rd 9 V Roosters: Game Day

Post by The Rickman » May 15, 2019, 2:01 pm

greeneyed wrote:
May 15, 2019, 1:58 pm
Unconscious or unrecognised bias has nothing to do with cheating. By definition, it is unconscious, unrecognised.
That's what I just said, m8.

They don't even recognise that they hate us and deliberately causing us to lose games (except the ones we've play well), which makes it unconscious.
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Re: 2019 Rd 9 V Roosters: Game Day

Post by greeneyed » May 15, 2019, 2:19 pm

I understand you're being sarcastic, but you cannot pretend unrecognised or unconscious bias is not real. It's very well understood by psychologists, and there is a wealth of respected academic studies on the subject. Here is an extract from a very good article on the subject:

...a lot of their problem is that they are not conscious of their unconscious biases. These are not in any way deliberate. They are not recognised by the referees. I think their performance would improve - possibly by a lot - if they recognised the potential for their unrecognised bias. There is a good deal of academic research on this subject. Here's just a few examples:

# In FA Cup soccer, significantly higher numbers of yellow cards are awarded against the away teams, and the probability of a yellow card being awarded against the home team decreases as the size of the home crowd increases. It is suggested that this may be because the bigger home crowds make it more obvious to the referee that fouls take place, or that the referee unconsciously wants to appease the home crowd. 1. In addition, referees watching on video without the crowd noise are less likely to make decisions in favour of the home team.

# A study of 10 professional sports leagues, including MLB, NBA, NFL, NHL in the United States and the six largest European soccer leagues, found that officials routinely exhibit "omission bias", where they avoid making impact on the game. This results in them making many more incorrect non-calls than incorrect calls. They also step back further when games are "on the line", resulting in even more incorrect non-calls. 2.

# Prior knowledge distorts decisions. In NBA, the star status of basketballers has been found to influence the decisions of officials; in MBL, the reputation of pitchers influences umpires' ball-strike judgements; in soccer, the reputation for aggressiveness impacts decisions; and gymnasts who have performed strongly previously are scored more favourably. 3.

# In Australian Rules, central umpires from one State gave teams from that State significantly more free kicks than teams from outside that State; the probability of that increased if the home State team was playing at home. 4.

1. Effects of crowd size on referee decisions: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1 ... 0701275193
2. Whistle swallowing: Officiating and the omission bias: http://www.sloansportsconference.com/?p=2885
3. Referee decisions in sports: https://books.google.com.au/books?hl=en ... &q&f=false
4. In group favouritism in Australian Rules: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1 ... 9809600403
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Re: 2019 Rd 9 V Roosters: Game Day

Post by The Rickman » May 15, 2019, 2:28 pm

There's one more that you're forgetting, Ferg...

# In NRL games involving the Canberra Raiders, referees will often unconsciously referee in favour of the other team, except for in the instances where the Raiders play well, and in that case they referee the games squarely.
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Re: 2019 Rd 9 V Roosters: Game Day

Post by greeneyed » May 15, 2019, 2:56 pm

I understand you’re aiming to belittle through sarcasm... but it’s not working.
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Re: 2019 Rd 9 V Roosters: Game Day

Post by simo » May 15, 2019, 3:15 pm

#refs have also been known to move an entire round to suncorp unconsciously in an effort to disadvantage teams travelling from canberra.
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Re: 2019 Rd 9 V Roosters: Game Day

Post by greeneyed » May 15, 2019, 3:30 pm

Seriously... do you get enjoyment from attempting to belittle the views of others?
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Re: 2019 Rd 9 V Roosters: Game Day

Post by The Rickman » May 15, 2019, 3:33 pm

I don't think simo is trying to belittle your views, I think it's just your unconscious bias that's led you to believe that.
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Re: 2019 Rd 9 V Roosters: Game Day

Post by bonehead » May 15, 2019, 3:36 pm

The Rickman wrote:
simo wrote:
May 15, 2019, 11:19 am
The Rickman wrote:
May 15, 2019, 10:49 am
I'm still blown away by the fact the kicker can't put the chasers onside anymore, although I have suspected for a while now that this rule must've changed.
Were they within 10 before being run onside?
Nope, they were run onside well before they breached the 10.
no, Sam Williams got caught up in the kick pressure and didn't run Sutton onside outside the 10m.
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Re: 2019 Rd 9 V Roosters: Game Day

Post by The Rickman » May 15, 2019, 3:39 pm

bonehead wrote:
May 15, 2019, 3:36 pm
The Rickman wrote:
simo wrote:
May 15, 2019, 11:19 am
The Rickman wrote:
May 15, 2019, 10:49 am
I'm still blown away by the fact the kicker can't put the chasers onside anymore, although I have suspected for a while now that this rule must've changed.
Were they within 10 before being run onside?
Nope, they were run onside well before they breached the 10.
no, Sam Williams got caught up in the kick pressure and didn't run Sutton onside outside the 10m.
That's absolutely not how I saw it... can anyone find some footage??

Matt??
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Re: 2019 Rd 9 V Roosters: Game Day

Post by simo » May 15, 2019, 3:41 pm

I dont know why im being unconsciously singled out here, a poster above my made 4 similarly ridiculous claims and you havent taken a swipe at him for his clearly sarcastic points
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Re: 2019 Rd 9 V Roosters: Game Day

Post by The Rickman » May 15, 2019, 3:50 pm

simo wrote:
May 15, 2019, 3:41 pm
I dont know why im being unconsciously singled out here, a poster above my made 4 similarly ridiculous claims and you havent taken a swipe at him for his clearly sarcastic points
No, wait... I'M the one he called sarcastic, not you!

You were referred to as... *checks notes*... belittling!
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Re: 2019 Rd 9 V Roosters: Game Day

Post by gangrenous » May 15, 2019, 6:33 pm

Rickman your logic is epically flawed.

Poor decisions don’t have to guarantee you lose, they make it more likely.

So if the Raiders have a much better team then they will of course win more games, and that does not rule out the fact that bias may or may not have still been present.


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Re: 2019 Rd 9 V Roosters: Game Day

Post by simo » May 15, 2019, 7:26 pm

The Rickman wrote:
May 15, 2019, 3:50 pm
simo wrote:
May 15, 2019, 3:41 pm
I dont know why im being unconsciously singled out here, a poster above my made 4 similarly ridiculous claims and you havent taken a swipe at him for his clearly sarcastic points
No, wait... I'M the one he called sarcastic, not you!

You were referred to as... *checks notes*... belittling!
But i was being sarcastic. I thought we were all making jokes about us being mistreated? It could only be belittling if someone genuinely believed this rubbish which we would all agree would be hilarious
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Re: 2019 Rd 9 V Roosters: Game Day

Post by greeneyed » May 15, 2019, 8:30 pm

That there is unrecognised bias in sports officiating is widely accepted in the academic literature and there is now a large body of evidence which shows it is an issue across many sports. I'm unsure if the NRL is aware of the evidence... hopefully they are... and are training officials to recognise these biases and make sure that they avoid them.
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Re: 2019 Rd 9 V Roosters: Game Day

Post by -TW- » May 15, 2019, 8:49 pm

*Checks watch* oh sweet it's time for the annual unrecognised bias lecture

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Re: 2019 Rd 9 V Roosters: Game Day

Post by PigRickman » May 15, 2019, 8:56 pm

GE, you seem to know a lot of about unrecognised bias
Perhaps now you're across one aspect of bias, you can begin to now look deeply into confirmation bias and consider how that might impact your viewing experience with officials in raiders games
The List - K.Love, Keno, Zippy's tennis angels, LA Lakers, Noah, Boozer, Lucy's horse tips, Colts, Lucy, Kevin Proctor, Dr Zaius, TR, Tinfoil hatted Gangers and Woody, anyone in Raiders HQ who can point to QBN on a map....

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Re: 2019 Rd 9 V Roosters: Game Day

Post by BadnMean » May 15, 2019, 9:00 pm

Unrecognised bias is a thing. It's one (one) of the reasons teams win more often at home. You just have to shrug and try to win anyway. No one is saying it is the single deciding factor in a game. But it just happens.

You cannot watch rugby league and not have seen the Billy Slater rule in effect or gained a "home crowd offside" for your team by booing along with the rest.

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Re: 2019 Rd 9 V Roosters: Game Day

Post by pickles » May 15, 2019, 9:04 pm

raiderskater wrote:
pickles wrote:
May 14, 2019, 5:31 am
Other than that I don’t think there were any shocking decisions.
...not even when Croker had the ball kicked into his back and was ruled to have played at it and therefore six again, late in the game when we were only six points down and it would have given us the ball just short of halfway?

...not even when the Roosters player flopped to the ground, didn't get a hand laid on him, got up and played the ball?
These were probably the most baffling decisions. Especially the player lying on the ground without a finger on him and getting up to play the ball.

I was more referring to the alleged forward passes in the lead up to tries. I think there were some 50/50 calls both ways.

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Re: 2019 Rd 9 V Roosters: Game Day

Post by pickles » May 15, 2019, 9:06 pm

PigRickman wrote:It's the downtown rule, no?
The official even called our guy out, and he got involved anyways. Basically a high shot at that point, the dude is offside, you call him offside and he involves himself in the play... kind of have to blow the pen in that circumstance.
The downtown rule I think refers to when a player is in front of the play of the ball when it is played and they can take no further part in that tackle.

I think that’s different to being in front of the kicker where you can’t be within 10 metres when the opposition player receives the ball.

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Re: 2019 Rd 9 V Roosters: Game Day

Post by bonehead » May 15, 2019, 9:10 pm

The Rickman wrote:
bonehead wrote:
May 15, 2019, 3:36 pm
The Rickman wrote:
simo wrote:
May 15, 2019, 11:19 am
The Rickman wrote:
May 15, 2019, 10:49 am
I'm still blown away by the fact the kicker can't put the chasers onside anymore, although I have suspected for a while now that this rule must've changed.
Were they within 10 before being run onside?
Nope, they were run onside well before they breached the 10.
no, Sam Williams got caught up in the kick pressure and didn't run Sutton onside outside the 10m.
That's absolutely not how I saw it... can anyone find some footage??

Matt??
note Sutton offside, Sammy getting dragged out of play by the kick pressure Image

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Re: 2019 Rd 9 V Roosters: Game Day

Post by greeneyed » May 15, 2019, 9:16 pm

@Pigman I'm very aware of my unrecognised biases (confirmation bias is just one of them), and that's why I consciously think about it. I believe I've learned over time. Even old blokes learn. If you read my TGE columns... you'll know I am assiduous in not blaming the refereeing decisions for losses. I repeatedly point out that the club can't use officiating as an excuse for losses. They simply need to be better than any dodgy decision. If they're getting penalised a lot, they need to fix the discipline. It is actually counterproductive for the club to complain about officiating. But maybe you haven't read the columns.

The people that are sarcastically mocking and belittling my view that unrecognised biases exist... well, it doesn't worry me, because I know that there is a big body of evidence to that effect. They haven't read the studies, clearly.

That said, any commentator or fan is entitled to point out where the NRL referees are not up to standard and where they make mistakes. They are not above criticism. Graham Annesley turns up every week explaining the weekend's refereeing errors. Some people seem to think that Raiders fans should never point out an officiating error. That's ridiculous. Even the referees boss points them out. Personally, I doubt the NRL referees have the self awareness to consider whether they might have unrecognised biases. I haven't seen a lot of evidence of it. But I'd be pleased to hear they do and they've been trained to address them.
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Re: 2019 Rd 9 V Roosters: Game Day

Post by PigRickman » May 15, 2019, 9:19 pm

BadnMean wrote:
May 15, 2019, 9:00 pm
Unrecognised bias is a thing. It's one (one) of the reasons teams win more often at home. You just have to shrug and try to win anyway. No one is saying it is the single deciding factor in a game. But it just happens.

You cannot watch rugby league and not have seen the Billy Slater rule in effect or gained a "home crowd offside" for your team by booing along with the rest.
Here's the thing, that unrecognised bias thing? It goes both ways. We arent immune from it.

Let me show you how...
# A study of 10 professional sports leagues, including MLB, NBA, NFL, NHL in the United States and the six largest European soccer leagues, found that officials routinely exhibit "omission bias", where they avoid making impact on the game. This results in them making many more incorrect non-calls than incorrect calls. They also step back further when games are "on the line", resulting in even more incorrect non-calls.
It's unrecognised and unconscious, which means with the above, we are just as likely to BENEFIT from omission bias as our opposition. But GE and Gangers refuse to ever accept that this swings both ways. It's only ever us on the wrong end. IN which case it's not omission bias or unconscious bias, they're basically claiming a low level of match fixing.

# In FA Cup soccer, significantly higher numbers of yellow cards are awarded against the away teams, and the probability of a yellow card being awarded against the home team decreases as the size of the home crowd increases. It is suggested that this may be because the bigger home crowds make it more obvious to the referee that fouls take place, or that the referee unconsciously wants to appease the home crowd. 1. In addition, referees watching on video without the crowd noise are less likely to make decisions in favour of the home team.
Guys... guys... WE PLAY HOME GAMES TOO! The same amount as every other bloody team in the league! (Broncos Magic Round shenanigans aside). We BENEFIT FROM THIS AS MUCH AS ANY OTHER TEAM IN THE LEAGUE! That's what it means, unconscious, unrecognised biased toward a home team, which means our standing as a small market club, our level of success recently, it's out of scope! haha.
# Prior knowledge distorts decisions. In NBA, the star status of basketballers has been found to influence the decisions of officials; in MBL, the reputation of pitchers influences umpires' ball-strike judgements; in soccer, the reputation for aggressiveness impacts decisions; and gymnasts who have performed strongly previously are scored more favourably
Those sports whilst are team games, star calls happen in sports like the NBA because the natural inclination is that when Kevin Durrant misses a layup, it's probably because some lumbering goon in the paint fouled him. Same with baseball... these are VERY specific sports situations, the only like for like in RL is that you might find a player who is known to be always trying to mess with the ball in the ruck, getting penalised for drop balls on suspicion. But again, this goes both ways, it's not like it's only Elliott Whitehead who gets targeted like this, players on the opposition with the same tendency (and every team has at least 1 and probably 2-3-4 of them!) get it too!

The only reason people like Gangers and GE think the Raiders get it more is confirmation bias. They go into games with the real belief that the Raiders are going to get screwed, and then they see a contenious call and they see what they want to see. Confirmation bais. They are focused so much on their own beliefs that they ignore all other reasonable alternatives. Like i've said to them, a 50/50 against us, becomes a a blatantly incorrect call and a 50/50 in our favour is clearly correct. They're own bias is at play, confirming their own hypothesis.
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Edrick Lee 5. Jordan Rapana
Matt wrote:
June 25, 2019, 9:29 pm
Reed Mahoney 9. Josh Hodgson ©
Coaching Power Rankings: Ricky Stuart - Top 2, and he ain't 2.

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The Rickman
Mal Meninga
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Re: 2019 Rd 9 V Roosters: Game Day

Post by The Rickman » May 15, 2019, 9:24 pm

Hahaha this discussion is excellent... the fact that referees tend to make decisions skewed in the favour of home teams due to the crowds is obvious proof that the referees hate the raiders all the time


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greeneyed
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Re: 2019 Rd 9 V Roosters: Game Day

Post by greeneyed » May 15, 2019, 9:29 pm

@Pigman You make claims that are simply not true in relation to what I believe. But there is little doubt that "big" teams and "star" sportspeople get favourable decisions. That is what the studies show. There's also little doubt that the Raiders have not been in that category for a long time. By the way, I believe it happens to other clubs too. It has nothing to do with my own "confirmation bias".
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