Williams or Sezer?

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RedRaider
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by RedRaider »

The plays better with Sam at 7 and Sutton at 13. I hope this part of the team runs on against the Eels on Sunday. Sam has been kicking well tactically. His Grubber kicks go between defenders and not into their legs. So far most kicks that are meant to find grass do so. No kicks out on the full so far either. With Sam we get to apply pressure via a sound kicking game. He also gets the ball quickly to the right side attacking weapons. Sam for me.
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Williams or Sezer

Post by Hazza »

They're both average 1st graders. Neither Williams nor Sezer greatly improve the team so I don't really care which 1 it is. Same EDIT
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Hazza »

Matt wrote: April 9, 2019, 3:02 pm Sammy. Halfback seemed a bit of a coin toss to start the yr. In this case the old adage 'you dont change a winning side' has to apply.
That's a rubbish adage too though. If we were to apply that Tapine wouldn't be coming back in. If you can improve the team you do it.
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Williams or Sezer

Post by Hazza »

edwahu wrote: April 9, 2019, 10:28 am Sezer is one of the better defensive halves in the comp, Williams is one of the worst. It's a huge gap. Having said that WIlliams did get a pass mark defensively in his first game, so perhaps last week was a one off and there may be some improvement in that area this year.
See he just isn't. Where did this Sezer is 1 of the better defensive halves in the comp start? He's consistently up there for missed tackles. He's a better defender than Willams but EDIT would defend better than Williams. Sezer is far from this brilliant defender some think he is.
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Williams or Sezer

Post by edwahu »


It started because his edge doesn't regularly let tries in and when it does it isn't down to his involvement all the time. He isn't regularly making poor decisions or getting beaten in a meaningful way at a high rate.

As for missed tackles, there are 50-70 missed tackles a game and usually around 5 line breaks. What do you think that says about it as a defensive stat? It simply not a good indicator of a players defense unless it's a real outlier as 90% of tackles involve 2+ players and the only damage if a player falls off is meters.

If you want to rely on stats there are far better stats out there like try cause which show Sezer is a good defensive player.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by BJ »

Any good rugby league judges know that Sezer is a better than average defender for a half. That’s why opposition coaches don’t consistently target his Avenue.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Rick »

Sam


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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by FROG »

Sammy has to play. I appreciate that he has been inconsistent in the past but he's played a major part in both our victories. Sezer on the other hand was the worst on field by some margin against the storm. If Stuart selects Sezer it flys directly in the face of what he claims to stand for.. selecting players on form etc. What's more, Sezer should prove his commitment for the team by putting in a big performance for mounties this weekend. Do I think he will. Nope. Stuart will look after his good mate
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by nemesis »

FROG wrote: April 9, 2019, 7:02 pm Sammy has to play. I appreciate that he has been inconsistent in the past but he's played a major part in both our victories. Sezer on the other hand was the worst on field against the storm. If Stuart selects Sezer it flys directly on the face of what he claims to stand for.. selecting players on form etc.
we have won 3 games and sezer was great in that game, sezer was not the worst on the field in the storm game, plenty of our guys were kept quiet by their up and in defence, people need to let that game go and stop rubbishing sezer for a game we got dominated in for a period of time, the tries were scored through other guy's also so it's just wrong to blame sezer for the loss.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Botman »

The thing that’s got me curious is why Williams is being spoken of glowingly for this kicking game
He’s had some very good moments with the boot to be sure, but he still puts in way more average to bad kicks than he does good

His bombs in particular are horrendous.

I saw red give him credit for the kick last week where we scored and I just laughed. That was dreadful option that paid off because a cowboys played flubbed a routine pick up and Beej’s presence forced the issue there after

Now granted being a below average kicker is better than the dreadful stuff Sezer dished up, but it’s not as if we just made a huge upgrade. Our kicking game at present is still a massive weakness
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Green eyed Mick »

I think Williams has the edge based on the games I have seen this year.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Northern Raider »

PigRickman wrote: April 9, 2019, 7:21 pm The thing that’s got me curious is why Williams is being spoken of glowingly for this kicking game
He’s had some very good moments with the boot to be sure, but he still puts in way more average to bad kicks than he does good

His bombs in particular are horrendous.

I saw red give him credit for the kick last week where we scored and I just laughed. That was dreadful option that paid off because a cowboys played flubbed a routine pick up and Beej’s presence forced the issue there after

Now granted being a below average kicker is better than the dreadful stuff Sezer dished up, but it’s not as if we just made a huge upgrade. Our kicking game at present is still a massive weakness
You're right about the kick for Rapana's try. It was a complete fluff. If not for BJ going into wrecking ball mode and Cowboys tripping over themselves it would had been another dud end to the set.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Botman »

Beej was the proverbial bull in a china shop. That's the sort of thing that helps you get over his brain snaps. He created that try by just being more physical than anyone else.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Roger Kenworthy »

PigRickman wrote: April 9, 2019, 7:21 pm The thing that’s got me curious is why Williams is being spoken of glowingly for this kicking game
He’s had some very good moments with the boot to be sure, but he still puts in way more average to bad kicks than he does good

His bombs in particular are horrendous.

I saw red give him credit for the kick last week where we scored and I just laughed. That was dreadful option that paid off because a cowboys played flubbed a routine pick up and Beej’s presence forced the issue there after

Now granted being a below average kicker is better than the dreadful stuff Sezer dished up, but it’s not as if we just made a huge upgrade. Our kicking game at present is still a massive weakness
The better kick from him on the weekend was the touch finder at 18-12. Next set the Cowboys turned it over and Croker scored off the back of some great play down the left hand side.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Botman »

Ahhh! So that was THE kick. Thanks Ed.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by zim »

Just on kicking; Wighton's has been far better this year than I expected. Even taking into account the game where he overcooked 2 40/20s. To top it off he's nearly always leading the chase.
Some of those bombs he's putting up that land 5-10m from the line have been great.

I think everyone else has a much better short kicking game but for long and mid range he's doing pretty well.

Anyone know how George Williams is with the boot?
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Botman »

All i've read and heard is that his short kicking game is his strength with the boot.
Agreed on Wighton and his long kick, it's a working progress still and he makes some mistakes but i've been pleasantly surprised at how decent it's been early. And credit to him, he's come in to this in shape because you're 100% right, our kick chase has improved considerably because of him and Bateman
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Roger Kenworthy »

PigRickman wrote: April 9, 2019, 8:33 pm Ahhh! So that was THE kick. Thanks Ed.
He hasn't had amazing kicking games but I think he has been more composed than Sezer is. Sezer is frustrating as the occasional match he'll look like a top tier half, then he'll revert to form for three weeks.

It's the reason I'm a much harsher critic of Sezer than Williams, I had much higher hopes for him when he joined us.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Botman »

Roger Kenworthy wrote: April 9, 2019, 9:23 pm
PigRickman wrote: April 9, 2019, 8:33 pm Ahhh! So that was THE kick. Thanks Ed.
He hasn't had amazing kicking games but I think he has been more composed than Sezer is. Sezer is frustrating as the occasional match he'll look like a top tier half, then he'll revert to form for three weeks.

It's the reason I'm a much harsher critic of Sezer than Williams, I had much higher hopes for him when he joined us.
Yeah i dont disagree with any of that.
People are done with Sezer and rightly so. But "Sammy" is getting a lot of credit for not a great **** deal simply because he's not Sezer. And maybe that's fair, as you say the expectations are vastly different. Sezer has drastically under delivered where as Williams has just been exactly what he's always kind of been.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Beejay »

Sam should be dropped for his defence.
Both cowboys tries we’re through his corridor
His effort for the Cooper try was ordinary. He was in no mans land on his own try line and had no one. He was trying to block the pass in an intercept motion rather than just marking his man.
That’s what you get with Sam. I like his style in attack and organising, but it’s just not good enough to overcome his poor defence.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by BadnMean »

No Pig, he's kicked well bit you won't give him credit because you're gone all evangelical.

You don't think "Sammy" (let's all put in those things, just to be rad) can grow as a player or do better when playing alongside the blokes he grew up playing with? Combinations only work in origin? Ok then.

So far this year, he has been good. He has had good stretches in the past- amid some poor stretches. One problem was his lack of size and defence. He's got bigger.

Might be still overplaying shooting out to make contact. He can still improve that. Sezer has improved and changed sweet FA since he's been here.

We've been winning games while this "liability" (yeah, we can all do it) is in the team. But we lost these type of games with our old halves. Yet you refuse to acknowledge any possible improvement in game management or play from our halves? Ok.

I don't think he's a million miles better than Sezer, I won't crap the bed if either is in or out. But I think Sammy has played better and is better for the team this year.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by zim »

PigRickman wrote: April 9, 2019, 9:03 pm All i've read and heard is that his short kicking game is his strength with the boot.
Agreed on Wighton and his long kick, it's a working progress still and he makes some mistakes but i've been pleasantly surprised at how decent it's been early. And credit to him, he's come in to this in shape because you're 100% right, our kick chase has improved considerably because of him and Bateman
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Hazza »

BJ wrote: April 9, 2019, 6:15 pm Any good rugby league judges know that Sezer is a better than average defender for a half. That’s why opposition coaches don’t consistently target his Avenue.
Oh right. Any good Rugby League judges ay? Well that rules me out. Back to the drawing board .
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by RedRaider »

Northern Raider wrote: April 9, 2019, 7:36 pm
PigRickman wrote: April 9, 2019, 7:21 pm The thing that’s got me curious is why Williams is being spoken of glowingly for this kicking game
He’s had some very good moments with the boot to be sure, but he still puts in way more average to bad kicks than he does good

His bombs in particular are horrendous.

I saw red give him credit for the kick last week where we scored and I just laughed. That was dreadful option that paid off because a cowboys played flubbed a routine pick up and Beej’s presence forced the issue there after

Now granted being a below average kicker is better than the dreadful stuff Sezer dished up, but it’s not as if we just made a huge upgrade. Our kicking game at present is still a massive weakness
You're right about the kick for Rapana's try. It was a complete fluff. If not for BJ going into wrecking ball mode and Cowboys tripping over themselves it would had been another dud end to the set.
Fact was Sam got the ball through the line - he didn't hit legs as plenty of other kicks from other players have - and it gave BJ the opportunity to do what he did and for the Raiders to get the TRY. If the kick hits legs the play goes no where. I think it is possible for players to develop over time and we are seeing it in Sam. I'm glad Sam was selected again this week because imo, his form says he should be there.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Northern Raider »

RedRaider wrote: April 9, 2019, 10:33 pm
Northern Raider wrote: April 9, 2019, 7:36 pm
PigRickman wrote: April 9, 2019, 7:21 pm The thing that’s got me curious is why Williams is being spoken of glowingly for this kicking game
He’s had some very good moments with the boot to be sure, but he still puts in way more average to bad kicks than he does good

His bombs in particular are horrendous.

I saw red give him credit for the kick last week where we scored and I just laughed. That was dreadful option that paid off because a cowboys played flubbed a routine pick up and Beej’s presence forced the issue there after

Now granted being a below average kicker is better than the dreadful stuff Sezer dished up, but it’s not as if we just made a huge upgrade. Our kicking game at present is still a massive weakness
You're right about the kick for Rapana's try. It was a complete fluff. If not for BJ going into wrecking ball mode and Cowboys tripping over themselves it would had been another dud end to the set.
Fact was Sam got the ball through the line - he didn't hit legs as plenty of other kicks from other players have - and it gave BJ the opportunity to do what he did and for the Raiders to get the TRY. If the kick hits legs the play goes no where. I think it is possible for players to develop over time and we are seeing it in Sam. I'm glad Sam was selected again this week because imo, his form says he should be there.
It was a good kick because it didn't hit legs. OK then.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

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This is becoming such a dumb pissing contest that we'll end up with one side death riding a player and digging in their trenches and one side gloating no matter what these guys do now.

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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by The Nickman »

I have to say as much as most of the forum has this love affair with "Sammy" (lol), Pig goes the other way and just blindly refuses to acknowledge anything he does is ever any good. The bloke should've scored two tries the other week and that doesn't even rate a mention. He also let in two tries last week, which has obviously been mentioned plenty.

Like most things, I suspect the truth is somewhere in the middle here, guys.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by simo »

Cant wait to see who wins the race for our number seven. Sammy “The Easily Movable Object” Williams or Aiden “The Very Stoppable Force” Sezer.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Kryptonite »

Sam Williams stays, if injured, throw Hingano in there, that's should get Sezer going in Mounties and snap some complacency out of him and fire him up for the Origin period, back end of the season
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by BadnMean »

simo wrote: April 10, 2019, 11:17 am Cant wait to see who wins the race for our number seven. Sammy “The Easily Movable Object” Williams or Aiden “The Very Stoppable Force” Sezer.
:roflmao
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by T_R »

simo wrote:Cant wait to see who wins the race for our number seven. Sammy “The Easily Movable Object” Williams or Aiden “The Very Stoppable Force” Sezer.
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Son, we live in a world that has forums, and those forums have to be guarded by Mods. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Nickman? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Lucy, and you curse GE. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know -- that GE’s moderation, while tragic, probably saved lives; and my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, keeps threads on track and under the appropriately sized, highlighted green headings.
You want moderation because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that forum -- you need me on that forum. We use words like "stay on topic," "use the appropriate forum," "please delete." We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very moderation that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather that you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you get a green handle and edit a post. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think about moderation.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Woodgers »

At this point in time i'm happy to persist with Sam.

I'm wary of giving player groups too much power, but I do think for an issue like this where it is a fine line on who is the better 7 for the Raiders that Ricky should be querying the leadership group behind closed doors on the way they see it, or at the very least getting a private opinion from Josh Hodgson.
We continue to **** about with blokes that are part of some fraternity. It's infuriating.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Northern Raider »

Kryptonite wrote: April 10, 2019, 11:26 am Sam Williams stays, if injured, throw Hingano in there, that's should get Sezer going in Mounties and snap some complacency out of him and fire him up for the Origin period, back end of the season
The down side of that is we'd have Hingano as our halfback.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by Seiffert82 »

Such a boring debate.
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Re: Williams or Sezer

Post by LP Raider »

The Rickman wrote: April 10, 2019, 10:54 am I have to say as much as most of the forum has this love affair with "Sammy" (lol), Pig goes the other way and just blindly refuses to acknowledge anything he does is ever any good. The bloke should've scored two tries the other week and that doesn't even rate a mention. He also let in two tries last week, which has obviously been mentioned plenty.

Like most things, I suspect the truth is somewhere in the middle here, guys.
He didn't let 2 tries in, Bateman didn't wrap up the ball carrier and Morgan stepped inside.

He may or may not have been instructed to rush up. As I mentioned in an earlier post it's up to the coaching staff to sort it out. He didn't miss any one on one tackles.
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