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Re: NFL Thread

Post by Northern Raider » February 4, 2019, 7:32 pm

The one that drove it home for me was the 'comeback' drive after Pats TD. They finally went for a few short passing plays (screen followed by a short crossing route) and worked the ball down to the 30. Immediately went back to the deep ball which had beem failing all day. Goff throws a panic ball under pressure and its intercepted. Game effectively over from that point.
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Re: NFL Thread

Post by Botman » February 4, 2019, 7:37 pm

Pigman wrote:
January 29, 2019, 1:15 pm
Matt wrote:
January 29, 2019, 10:57 am
@pigman,

I just read that Jags might trade Fournette to Philly for Foles.

Thoughts?!?
blah blah blah
Interesting side note on this, the Eagles restructured Rodney McLoud and saved 7.5mil in cap space
And now the expectation is they'll try to tag him and trade him for a 3rd round pick... which is weird because they're getting a 3rd round compensatory pick if they let him walk... which makes me think Howie has something up his sleeve and he's planning to more aggressive in FA than you'd think... he's got a lot of ways to easily make more space.

This will an interesting off season.
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Re: NFL Thread

Post by greeneyed » February 4, 2019, 7:47 pm

Northern Raider wrote:
February 4, 2019, 7:32 pm
The one that drove it home for me was the 'comeback' drive after Pats TD. They finally went for a few short passing plays (screen followed by a short crossing route) and worked the ball down to the 30. Immediately went back to the deep ball which had beem failing all day. Goff throws a panic ball under pressure and its intercepted. Game effectively over from that point.
That was gold!
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Re: NFL Thread

Post by Botman » February 4, 2019, 7:58 pm

Northern Raider wrote:
February 4, 2019, 7:32 pm
The one that drove it home for me was the 'comeback' drive after Pats TD. They finally went for a few short passing plays (screen followed by a short crossing route) and worked the ball down to the 30. Immediately went back to the deep ball which had beem failing all day. Goff throws a panic ball under pressure and its intercepted. Game effectively over from that point.
It was a stock standard GO route too, it's a simple read... you put that to the back corner and see if he can make a play... and Goff just totally under threw it. Really bad throw, really bad decision
He kept trying to go for those big shots and most of them didnt have a chance

The short stuff felt like it was there all day, not too dissimilar to the KC game... aggressive offensive coaches and QB's looking for it all, instead of just taking whats there.

Pour some out for the Organisations who went all out looking for the next Sean McVey... should be looking for the next Doug Pederson.
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Re: NFL Thread

Post by Northern Raider » February 5, 2019, 12:27 pm

Brian Flores now officially the new Dolphins head coach. Many crediting him as the man who delivered this Superbowl for the Patriots by shutting down McVay's offence.
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Re: NFL Thread

Post by Matt » February 5, 2019, 12:51 pm

Northern Raider wrote:
February 5, 2019, 12:27 pm
Brian Flores now officially the new Dolphins head coach. Many crediting him as the man who delivered this Superbowl for the Patriots by shutting down McVay's offence.
Just finished reading that and was about to post it.

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Re: NFL Thread

Post by Northern Raider » February 5, 2019, 1:03 pm

When you bring in a new head coach with such high credentials on defense that must be complemented by a top shelf offensive coordinator.

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Re: NFL Thread

Post by Northern Raider » February 5, 2019, 1:40 pm

There's a lot of talk about the Dolphins tanking next season so they can draft from the strong QB class coming out in 2020. Gives Flores a free pass for at least 1 season. Possibly 2 if they totally clean house and rebuild through the draft.

Its a tough gig still. Coming into a once great franchise that has drastically under achieved the last 25 years. Something us Raiders fans can relate to. :|
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Re: NFL Thread

Post by Matt » February 5, 2019, 3:05 pm

Northern Raider wrote:
February 5, 2019, 1:40 pm
There's a lot of talk about the Dolphins tanking next season so they can draft from the strong QB class coming out in 2020. Gives Flores a free pass for at least 1 season. Possibly 2 if they totally clean house and rebuild through the draft.

Its a tough gig still. Coming into a once great franchise that has drastically under achieved the last 25 years. Something us Raiders fans can relate to. :|
TANKING...
Pretty sure if that was found out to be a thing, all sorts of crazy punishments would come out.

And, yep, very much so.

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Re: NFL Thread

Post by Northern Raider » February 5, 2019, 4:02 pm

Matt wrote:
February 5, 2019, 3:05 pm
Northern Raider wrote:
February 5, 2019, 1:40 pm
There's a lot of talk about the Dolphins tanking next season so they can draft from the strong QB class coming out in 2020. Gives Flores a free pass for at least 1 season. Possibly 2 if they totally clean house and rebuild through the draft.

Its a tough gig still. Coming into a once great franchise that has drastically under achieved the last 25 years. Something us Raiders fans can relate to. :|
TANKING...
Pretty sure if that was found out to be a thing, all sorts of crazy punishments would come out.

And, yep, very much so.
But it is a thing. particularly since rookie contracts are structured. No more exhorbitant contracts for the top picks means they are valuable commodities for teams once more. Not automatic 4 year salary cap burdens. Only last season the Jets tanked it to get Sam Darnold.

The NFL has no rules in place to stop it. I don't mean intentionally throwing games on the field, they simply pick teams that can't win them.
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Re: NFL Thread

Post by Botman » February 5, 2019, 6:01 pm

Im pretty skeptical about Flores
He's got the chops and certain his SB performance was very impressive (though i think Goff and McVey pissing down their legs on the big stage was more of a factor), but the BB coaching tree has been... to be frank... an unmitigated disaster... i dont know what it is, maybe they all just TRY to be him and can't... or more likely, it speaks to his level of genius, that these dudes are all a bit **** because, it's not them, it's Bill.

So yeah, im not super pumped about the Flores hire, but i do think he's got a better chance than most. From what i've read, there is some Pederson vibes about him, as in he's got his mentor but is also very comfortable with who he is and his style.

Re: tanking, dont kid yourself, it happens in the NFL, Hue Jackson's first year as a coach was a tank job for the ages.
Just not to the level of other american sports. Which is the nature of the game... the NFL has bigger squads, thus bigger coaching staffs... and most of those dudes live year to year in terms of employment. The HC and GM might have a plan, the ownership might have a plan, but those dudes have to bust their **** to make a living.

So yeah the Dolphins are going to tank, and by that i mean they're going to turf tannehill, they'll eat a **** ton of dead salary, they'll trade what few assets they have for whatever they can get, and they'll put out a very ordinary team... but that team will attempt to play and coach it's **** off, because... they've got bills to pay.

In the NBA, you can just sit Joel Embiid for 2 years, let Ben Simmons sit his rookie year with a broken foot, the coach can put out young guys and bad rotations. It's easy. When you're dealing with 100 staff across players and staff, 80 of which aren't sure they'll be around to see the fruits of the tanking labour? Tough.
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Re: NFL Thread

Post by gergreg » February 5, 2019, 6:39 pm

Yeah but it's Miami. They do their best tank and still end about 8 and 8.

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Re: NFL Thread

Post by Northern Raider » February 5, 2019, 10:44 pm

gergreg wrote:
February 5, 2019, 6:39 pm
Yeah but it's Miami. They do their best tank and still end about 8 and 8.

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Tru dat. There’s very little between their worst team and their best.
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Re: NFL Thread

Post by Botman » February 6, 2019, 8:30 am

gergreg wrote:
February 5, 2019, 6:39 pm
Yeah but it's Miami. They do their best tank and still end about 8 and 8.

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Yeah that's what i mean... even a team tanking can "try hard" and jag themselves like 4-5 wins because dudes are trying to get paid.
Look at the jets, they desperately wanted to tank for a QB 2 years ago, and McCown jagged them 5 wins and they had to trade UP for Darnold.

With so many moving parts, it's really hard to tank in the NFL. Which is why what Hue Jackson did was... in many ways... so damn impressive
If the Dolphins really wanted to tank, they should just pay Flores to have a year off coaching and really "study" the game away from the coal face and just hand Hue the reigns for 2019. Then they'll get Tua.

The fun thing will be seeing who and for how far people will go to tank 2020 to get Sunshine Lawrence out of Clemson, who is as good and clean a prospect as i've ever seen... even more so than Luck, who was considered the best QB prospect since Payten Manning.

I think 2020 is going to a wild race to the bottom for teams without a QB...
I think we're going to see some good teams do some wild **** to try to get him. The patriots, steelers, saints, chargers are just a few teams with studs now but who will need someone by then, who could just seriously tank it for a year, get their QB and kick the feet up for another 15 years of elite QB play.

which of course means that Tom Brady will retire after this next season, Kraft will give BB a year off as a break, the Pats will go 1-15 and draft Trevor Lawrence and just roll into another 2 decade long dynasty :rant
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Re: NFL Thread

Post by Matt » February 6, 2019, 8:36 am

Pigman wrote:
February 5, 2019, 6:01 pm
Im pretty skeptical about Flores
He's got the chops and certain his SB performance was very impressive (though i think Goff and McVey pissing down their legs on the big stage was more of a factor), but the BB coaching tree has been... to be frank... an unmitigated disaster... i dont know what it is, maybe they all just TRY to be him and can't... or more likely, it speaks to his level of genius, that these dudes are all a bit **** because, it's not them, it's Bill.

So yeah, im not super pumped about the Flores hire, but i do think he's got a better chance than most. From what i've read, there is some Pederson vibes about him, as in he's got his mentor but is also very comfortable with who he is and his style.

Re: tanking, dont kid yourself, it happens in the NFL, Hue Jackson's first year as a coach was a tank job for the ages.
Just not to the level of other american sports. Which is the nature of the game... the NFL has bigger squads, thus bigger coaching staffs... and most of those dudes live year to year in terms of employment. The HC and GM might have a plan, the ownership might have a plan, but those dudes have to bust their **** to make a living.

So yeah the Dolphins are going to tank, and by that i mean they're going to turf tannehill, they'll eat a **** ton of dead salary, they'll trade what few assets they have for whatever they can get, and they'll put out a very ordinary team... but that team will attempt to play and coach it's **** off, because... they've got bills to pay.

In the NBA, you can just sit Joel Embiid for 2 years, let Ben Simmons sit his rookie year with a broken foot, the coach can put out young guys and bad rotations. It's easy. When you're dealing with 100 staff across players and staff, 80 of which aren't sure they'll be around to see the fruits of the tanking labour? Tough.
I dont see that as 'Tanking'. Tanking is intentionally throwing games.
The description above falls into the 'rebuild' or 'clean house' category. If you dont have the cattle, you simply cant win games, no matter how hard the boys might play. Thats just a fact of life. At the end of the day, skill will usually beat heart/ effort.

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Re: NFL Thread

Post by Matt » February 6, 2019, 8:38 am

Pigman wrote:
February 6, 2019, 8:30 am
gergreg wrote:
February 5, 2019, 6:39 pm
Yeah but it's Miami. They do their best tank and still end about 8 and 8.

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Yeah that's what i mean... even a team tanking can "try hard" and jag themselves like 4-5 wins because dudes are trying to get paid.
Look at the jets, they desperately wanted to tank for a QB 2 years ago, and McCown jagged them 5 wins and they had to trade UP for Darnold.

With so many moving parts, it's really hard to tank in the NFL. Which is why what Hue Jackson did was... in many ways... so damn impressive
If the Dolphins really wanted to tank, they should just pay Flores to have a year off coaching and really "study" the game away from the coal face and just hand Hue the reigns for 2019. Then they'll get Tua.

The fun thing will be seeing who and for how far people will go to tank 2020 to get Sunshine Lawrence out of Clemson, who is as good and clean a prospect as i've ever seen... even more so than Luck, who was considered the best QB prospect since Payten Manning.

I think 2020 is going to a wild race to the bottom for teams without a QB...
I think we're going to see some good teams do some wild **** to try to get him. The patriots, steelers, saints, chargers are just a few teams with studs now but who will need someone by then, who could just seriously tank it for a year, get their QB and kick the feet up for another 15 years of elite QB play.

which of course means that Tom Brady will retire after this next season, Kraft will give BB a year off as a break, the Pats will go 1-15 and draft Trevor Lawrence and just roll into another 2 decade long dynasty :rant
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO...

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Re: NFL Thread

Post by Northern Raider » February 6, 2019, 11:22 am

Matt wrote:
February 6, 2019, 8:36 am
Pigman wrote:
February 5, 2019, 6:01 pm
Im pretty skeptical about Flores
He's got the chops and certain his SB performance was very impressive (though i think Goff and McVey pissing down their legs on the big stage was more of a factor), but the BB coaching tree has been... to be frank... an unmitigated disaster... i dont know what it is, maybe they all just TRY to be him and can't... or more likely, it speaks to his level of genius, that these dudes are all a bit **** because, it's not them, it's Bill.

So yeah, im not super pumped about the Flores hire, but i do think he's got a better chance than most. From what i've read, there is some Pederson vibes about him, as in he's got his mentor but is also very comfortable with who he is and his style.

Re: tanking, dont kid yourself, it happens in the NFL, Hue Jackson's first year as a coach was a tank job for the ages.
Just not to the level of other american sports. Which is the nature of the game... the NFL has bigger squads, thus bigger coaching staffs... and most of those dudes live year to year in terms of employment. The HC and GM might have a plan, the ownership might have a plan, but those dudes have to bust their **** to make a living.

So yeah the Dolphins are going to tank, and by that i mean they're going to turf tannehill, they'll eat a **** ton of dead salary, they'll trade what few assets they have for whatever they can get, and they'll put out a very ordinary team... but that team will attempt to play and coach it's **** off, because... they've got bills to pay.

In the NBA, you can just sit Joel Embiid for 2 years, let Ben Simmons sit his rookie year with a broken foot, the coach can put out young guys and bad rotations. It's easy. When you're dealing with 100 staff across players and staff, 80 of which aren't sure they'll be around to see the fruits of the tanking labour? Tough.
I dont see that as 'Tanking'. Tanking is intentionally throwing games.
The description above falls into the 'rebuild' or 'clean house' category. If you dont have the cattle, you simply cant win games, no matter how hard the boys might play. Thats just a fact of life. At the end of the day, skill will usually beat heart/ effort.
Tanking is the art of losing. There are many ways to do this. NFL teams do it by fielding teams that (theoretically) aren't good enough to win no matter how hard they try. Only takes few weak cogs for the whole machine to fail. It is effectively throwing games but its done by those off the field, not on it.

The key point is how many other teams are tanking for the top QBs as well? Mix that with the teams that just plain suck anyway and it could become a very cluttered at the bottom.

Truth is it doesn't make sense to go into a season with the intention of tanking. Start building your squad now and get the best result you can. Keep building the following season from whatever position you end up in. If you're rebuilding I think its better to stockpile draft picks than load up one one coveted prospect. For every Peyton Manning there's a lot more like Ryan Leaf and JaMarcus Russell. History tells us that quantity often beats quality at draft time as its so hard to tell who will rise to the top. Tom Brady will arguably go down as the best QB ever (at least in regard to winning SBs) and he was a 6th round pick!
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Re: NFL Thread

Post by Matt » February 6, 2019, 1:04 pm

Tanking - Games that are deliberately lost are sometimes called thrown games. When a team intentionally loses a game, or does not score as high as it can, to obtain a perceived future competitive advantage, the team is often said to have tanked the game instead of having thrown it. In pool hustling, tanking is known as dumping.

^^^^^
That is tanking, at least not by definition. Tanking requires you to throw the game.

The above descriptions are 'team rebuilding' or 'clearing house'. Ok, the result is essentially the same, BUT the process of getting there is different. The over riding thought process is to try and get a high draft pick by not being successful, due to lack of cattle, NOT losing games because you threw them. Its the 'legal' way of doing it, if you want to look at it that way, vs the illegal way.

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Re: NFL Thread

Post by Northern Raider » February 6, 2019, 8:58 pm

Really getting into some serious semantics there Matt. I've described what they're doing. Call it whatever you are comfortable with.
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Re: NFL Thread

Post by Botman » February 10, 2019, 5:35 pm

AAF kicked off today and from what I’ve seen and read, I think that league is going to have legs as an off season filler for the NFL

The quality of play was pretty solid and those dudes are all out there scrapping for their dream

Amazing the NFL never did this themselves

I’m a lifelong *checks notes*

Arizona Hotshots fan,

and this thread is now a dedicated news service for the Hotshots
Thank you for your time

Honestly though, this could have ramifications back here, a guy like Val Holmes... playing a little AAF to put some tape out there isn’t a bad option.

It’s a really good avenue for players who think they want to do this to get their feet a little wet, whilst still earning a wage and skipping the college system
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Re: NFL Thread

Post by Botman » February 10, 2019, 5:40 pm

FWIW tanking isn’t intentionally throwing games
This is professional sports and jobs are on the line, like dudes who don’t have anything but this, who can’t provide if not for their gifts in sports are out there scrapping to make something
No one is throwing games

Tanking is an organisational direction/philosophy to put a sub par talent on the park, and make decisions in the mind set of being happy to lose games

The Sixers tanked. But they always played hard and tried their best. It’s just the organisation has no interest in fielding a team whose best was remotely good enough

That’s why they sat Embiid for so long and why Simmons somehow missed an entire season with a broken foot

The dolphins are from all reports going to tank for Tua
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Re: NFL Thread

Post by Northern Raider » February 10, 2019, 6:22 pm

Pigman, I hadn't heard of the AAF till you posted that. Just read up on it and I like the conept in theory. Game play is fundamentally the same as the NFL so there's no confusion for fans. Rule changes are more around the format, which is more condensed (shorter play clock, less scheduled time outs etc). I like how they approach overtime deciders. Each team gets a 1st and goal from the 10 with no field goals. If its still tied after that then points are shared.

Timing is very good too. Starts right after the Superbowl and wraps up around draft time. Fills the gap where there is nothing but mock drafts to keep NFL fans amused. Also gives players a chance to crack an NFL team roster by performing on the field rather than less tangible measures of ability. You never know, it could unearth another Kurt Warner.

P.S. Arizon Hotshots suck. Orlando Apollos all the way!!! (gotta stick with the Florida team)
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Re: NFL Thread

Post by Matt » February 10, 2019, 6:41 pm

Ive only seen highlights of the AAF, and its better than arena football. Its closer to the NFL, and i could definitely see this as a 'reserve grade'/ pathway to NFL for players.

It certainly feels a better option than Canada. It looks like its gonna get a better profile.

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Re: NFL Thread

Post by Matt » February 10, 2019, 6:48 pm

Semantics or not guys, get a dictionary. By definition its not tanking.

I totally understand what you are saying.

I totally agree the outcome, or at least the indended outcome, is the same.

I know that if they actually tanked there would be serious repercussions, and therefore this is the legal version - something i said earlier.

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Re: NFL Thread

Post by Botman » February 11, 2019, 9:56 am

Northern Raider wrote:
February 10, 2019, 6:22 pm
Pigman, I hadn't heard of the AAF till you posted that. Just read up on it and I like the conept in theory. Game play is fundamentally the same as the NFL so there's no confusion for fans. Rule changes are more around the format, which is more condensed (shorter play clock, less scheduled time outs etc). I like how they approach overtime deciders. Each team gets a 1st and goal from the 10 with no field goals. If its still tied after that then points are shared.

Timing is very good too. Starts right after the Superbowl and wraps up around draft time. Fills the gap where there is nothing but mock drafts to keep NFL fans amused. Also gives players a chance to crack an NFL team roster by performing on the field rather than less tangible measures of ability. You never know, it could unearth another Kurt Warner.

P.S. Arizon Hotshots suck. Orlando Apollos all the way!!! (gotta stick with the Florida team)
Yeah there is a lot of different rules which i think the NFL will monitor VERY closely to see how they work... The Onside kick is a major one and it feels like given the chances to the kicking rules, it's a matter of time before onside kicks move to a 4th and 10-15 or something
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Re: NFL Thread

Post by Botman » February 11, 2019, 1:45 pm

Hotshots win
Get around us
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Re: NFL Thread

Post by Northern Raider » February 11, 2019, 9:28 pm

Pigman wrote:
February 11, 2019, 9:56 am
Northern Raider wrote:
February 10, 2019, 6:22 pm
Pigman, I hadn't heard of the AAF till you posted that. Just read up on it and I like the conept in theory. Game play is fundamentally the same as the NFL so there's no confusion for fans. Rule changes are more around the format, which is more condensed (shorter play clock, less scheduled time outs etc). I like how they approach overtime deciders. Each team gets a 1st and goal from the 10 with no field goals. If its still tied after that then points are shared.

Timing is very good too. Starts right after the Superbowl and wraps up around draft time. Fills the gap where there is nothing but mock drafts to keep NFL fans amused. Also gives players a chance to crack an NFL team roster by performing on the field rather than less tangible measures of ability. You never know, it could unearth another Kurt Warner.

P.S. Arizon Hotshots suck. Orlando Apollos all the way!!! (gotta stick with the Florida team)
Yeah there is a lot of different rules which i think the NFL will monitor VERY closely to see how they work... The Onside kick is a major one and it feels like given the chances to the kicking rules, it's a matter of time before onside kicks move to a 4th and 10-15 or something
Dare say there's been some collaboration with the NFL about trialling a few rules.
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Matt
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Re: NFL Thread

Post by Matt » February 12, 2019, 10:12 am

Kareem Hunt is a Brown.
WOW!
What about Chubb?

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Re: NFL Thread

Post by Matt » February 14, 2019, 5:47 am

Flacco to Bronx for a 4th. Seems low. I would have said a SB ring holding QB, even an old one, is a 3rd.

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Re: NFL Thread

Post by Botman » February 14, 2019, 7:42 am

Matt wrote:
February 14, 2019, 5:47 am
Flacco to Bronx for a 4th. Seems low. I would have said a SB ring holding QB, even an old one, is a 3rd.
I like that kind of party
If Flacco is worth a 4th, maybe Roseman can tag Foles and get a second for him
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Re: NFL Thread

Post by Matt » February 14, 2019, 7:51 am

Pigman wrote:
February 14, 2019, 7:42 am
Matt wrote:
February 14, 2019, 5:47 am
Flacco to Bronx for a 4th. Seems low. I would have said a SB ring holding QB, even an old one, is a 3rd.
I like that kind of party
If Flacco is worth a 4th, maybe Roseman can tag Foles and get a second for him
Thats the thing though, Foles is worth a 2nd already. I dont think it needs Flacco to go for a 4th.

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Re: NFL Thread

Post by Northern Raider » February 14, 2019, 8:08 am

Matt wrote:
February 14, 2019, 5:47 am
Flacco to Bronx for a 4th. Seems low. I would have said a SB ring holding QB, even an old one, is a 3rd.
Raven probably wanted more but sounds about right. Flacco is a known commodity and not going to come in to win them a Superbowl. He's a quality starter who going to be their transition QB while they attempt to draft and develop an upgrade to the position.
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NFL Thread

Post by the bone » February 14, 2019, 12:48 pm

I don’t like the Flacco signing from a Broncos perspective. Should’ve just stuck with Keenam for a year while they develop a QB from this year’s draft... I guess they didn’t like any of their choices or weren’t willing to give away picks to trade up


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Re: NFL Thread

Post by Botman » February 14, 2019, 1:04 pm

yeah im with you, Bone.
Just simply as players, i think Keenum is better than Flacco. Flacco's last few years has been dreadful. It's hard to imagine hime finding the old Joe Cool from 5-6 years ago when he was a very respectable, boarderline top 10 QB.

So player to player, i think they are both flawed QB's who you have to work around, but i dont think this is a major upgrade on Keenum... Flacco costs more and you lose a 4th round pick for it.

It ultimately comes down to this, you get the pick of these two packages

Flacco

OR

Keenum, a 4th and 5-6mil in cap space.

Hard for me to imagine how a team picked the first package.
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Re: NFL Thread

Post by Matt » February 14, 2019, 1:11 pm

Pigman wrote:
February 14, 2019, 1:04 pm
yeah im with you, Bone.
Just simply as players, i think Keenum is better than Flacco. Flacco's last few years has been dreadful. It's hard to imagine hime finding the old Joe Cool from 5-6 years ago when he was a very respectable, boarderline top 10 QB.

So player to player, i think they are both flawed QB's who you have to work around, but i dont think this is a major upgrade on Keenum... Flacco costs more and you lose a 4th round pick for it.

It ultimately comes down to this, you get the pick of these two packages

Flacco

OR

Keenum, a 4th and 5-6mil in cap space.

Hard for me to imagine how a team picked the first package.
It only makes sense if they already have the QB for Flacco to mentor. So... ummm... yeah.

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