The Politics Thread 2019

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T_R
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by T_R » February 12, 2019, 7:08 pm

Papa, that's just wrong. The plumber in this instance is working as a company. To use that money, he has to declare a dividend and pay it out. At that point, he has to pay the balance of the tax owing.

He can defer the tax bill somewhat through a trust, but he pays before he can access it.
Image

Son, we live in a world that has forums, and those forums have to be guarded by Mods. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Nickman? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Lucy, and you curse GE. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know -- that GE’s moderation, while tragic, probably saved lives; and my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, keeps threads on track and under the appropriately sized, highlighted green headings.
You want moderation because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that forum -- you need me on that forum. We use words like "stay on topic," "use the appropriate forum," "please delete." We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very moderation that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather that you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you get a green handle and edit a post. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think about moderation.

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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by T_R » February 12, 2019, 7:10 pm

gergreg wrote:
papabear wrote:
Sterlk wrote:
February 9, 2019, 10:24 am
Finance hat on. For those that can wrap their heads around it, thoughts on the franking credit refund debate?

For me, it comes down to whether you accept the core premise that income earned by companies (but passed on to shareholders in the form of dividends) should be taxed at the shareholder's marginal tax rate, instead of the company's.

While it's fair enough that the funds shouldn't be taxed twice, which is ostensibly the point, I reject the premise. When they brought franking credits in initially, there would've been a decision as to which tax rate should be applicable - they can calculate it at the corporate level initially, or later on at the individual level for whatever amount makes it through as dividends.

If they'd decided to do it at the corporate level, then the company would pay whatever tax is due on the earnings it makes, and dividends from Australian companies would theoretically come through to shareholders tax free. Instead, the applicable tax rate is the individual's, so we have a complicated system to work out what to do with the tax that the company has already paid at its own tax rate.

I'm not going to do the research to figure out the motivation behind a decision made back in the 80's, but I'll hazard a guess that this choice was made because - like today - there might've been a whole bunch of large companies structuring their affairs so they essentially pay 0% tax. So if the rate of tax payable was the company's, there's no income for the government in that scenario, making it more profitable to tax the individual... who on average will presumably be paying a fair bit more than 0% tax. The flipside, of course, is that in the current individual-pays system you have retirees and such with a lower tax rate than many companies.

In my opinion, the correct solution is:
  • Reform taxation so that we don't have so many big companies paying zero tax
  • Calculate the tax rate and collect it where the money is earned, at the corporate level
  • All Australian dividends are passed through tax-free to shareholders, because the company already paid tax on its earnings
That solution sadly not being on the table, we have a debate where one side is claiming it'll be double-taxation if you take their refunds away, and another saying that working taxpayers are unfairly supporting these investors by paying for these refunds. They're both wrong.

The refunds being issued to investors isn't money that workers would otherwise have in their pocket, it's the tax withheld that the company has paid on its earnings. It essentially means no tax has been collected by the government, a 'correction' of too much tax withheld. If we're stuck with the silly premise that the shareholder's tax rate applies, then yes; the difference between the company's tax rate and the individual's should be returned to said individual. It's essentially the same as an individual taxpayer getting a refund from their tax return because too much tax was withheld by their employer.

It won't be double-taxation if the refunds are removed, because the would-be recipient isn't being taxed in addition to the company. What actually seems to be happening is that in this specific circumstance where we'd move into refund territory the calculation of the tax rate would be getting shifted to the corporate level. Taxed once, but these people are singled out as the only ones not getting to use their individual tax rate. Potentially unfair, depending on your point of view.

TL;DR
I disagree with the entire concept of franking credits; companies should pay tax on what they earn and the money should be distributed downstream tax free after that, instead of allowing calculation at the shareholder's tax rate.
Both sides are overstating and making bad arguments. The status-quo with the refunds treats all investors equally. The proposed changes single out people whose income isn't taxable to effectively make them pay more tax (giving them a higher tax rate, but NOT double-taxation), whether this group needs to be taxed more or not is a matter of opinion.
To be honest, I agree with a lot of what you have to say.

The reason for the current system is the corporate tax rate is so much lower then the highest income tax rate.

Thus the motivation to move money through your pocket as shares as opposed to wages is so high and the govt wants that revenue.

I.e. A plumber runs a plumbing company pays himself a 100k wage distributes a fully franked dividend of 200k to himself on 285k profit (85k tax) (numbers arent exact but meh).

Getting rid of franking credits would result in the government getting:-
- 112k
Plumber getting - 273k

The current system has
AT0 -154k
plumber 231k

The only way you can make it work is if you have a partner who doesnt work.

Hence our system actually promotes people to stay at home and look after your kids / dogs / plants / computer whatever, as opposed to getting a job.

The coalition probably likes keeping someone at home.

The labor just likes taxing you up your ****.

No matter how you look at it, when it comes to taxes and the economy the coalition is always going to be the lesser of two evils.

On that matter though, do we still have supporters for labors cracking negative gearing changes? anyone?







Anyone?
Yes. I read somewhere recently that the housing market had gone up something like 30 %, or more in some markets, in the last few years and now come back down less than 10 % and people are losing their ****. You'll be blaming everything on Labor as soon as they're in power yet blamed Labor for the first 2 years that the Liberals were in power.

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Oh, come on. Like Labor won't spend the whole next term blaming the LNP.

Have you forgotten Hawke / Keating?
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Son, we live in a world that has forums, and those forums have to be guarded by Mods. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Nickman? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Lucy, and you curse GE. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know -- that GE’s moderation, while tragic, probably saved lives; and my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, keeps threads on track and under the appropriately sized, highlighted green headings.
You want moderation because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that forum -- you need me on that forum. We use words like "stay on topic," "use the appropriate forum," "please delete." We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very moderation that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather that you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you get a green handle and edit a post. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think about moderation.

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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by gergreg » February 12, 2019, 8:32 pm

@T_R
I wasn't even close to voting age when Hawke came to power and in their later years in power I wasn't particularly interested in politics.

I flagged this months ago when the housing market fall was blamed on Labor who were still 6 months away from a tilt at an election. That is ludicrous.

But let me cast my mind back a little further and Papa can correct me if my memory is wrong. Papa declared that the Labor policy was crazy even though he conceded that he didn't have an investment property, he owned or partly owned his own home, but had zero intention of selling that property in the future - therefore the policy didn't actually affect him. And let's not forget the 'grand fathered' aspect of the policy.
Well I'm exactly the same, I partly own my own home, I do not have an investment property and I have no intention of upgrading my family home - so the policy doesn't affect. Now doesn't that actually make more sense. If a change in policy doesn't affect you why is it the issue that determines who you vote for?

Instead of focusing on the one issue why not look at the Coalition time in government as a whole?

From climate change, which I'm not even sure whether there is actual consensus that is 'real' within the Government. Throw in other issues surrounding the Great Barrier reef, lobbying of UNESCO to convince them not to be removed from World Heritage status and then a year or two later seemingly rubber stamping a foreign owned mine on the edge of the reef and partly financing it.

The NBN works okay for me but is it completely rolled out yet and how much over budget? And how good compared to other countries will it be in 5, 10 years?

They stopped the boats apparently. But who would know? They just stopped answering questions about it for 3 years. People still ended up in detention centres but the secrecy surrounding it doesn't actually leave the success or failure of it to debate. When a little pressure was applied they finally removed minors from O/S detention centres after they had been in detention for years, some by reports had been physically/sexually assaulted.

More recently they tried to change their international policy on the run concerning Israel to keep the religious side of the party happy and a brain wave of the new candidate. Well that flippant change of mind has singlehandedly stalled a multi billion dollar FTA with Indonesia.

We've seen as many leadership changes as happened with the Rudd/Gillard/Rudd government. People were going nuts over that and that alone, yet here we are. I think there is more to the ousting of Turnbull than has really been made out. Dutton came close to overturning Turnbull and then wanted to have another go but was told there wouldn't be a further vote unless they had better numbers. Somehow those numbers happened but then disappeared. Morrison's side schemed the whole thing IMO.

More important to me than house prices rising/falling is the lack of wage growth. The RBA came out a year or two back and claimed that wage growth needed to improve or Australia would be in real trouble. It makes sense to me that if people are earning a little more they have more disposable income and that is good for the economy but I'm no economist.

The Liberals managed to introduce same sex marriage, we've been through this before. I'm happy it's done but at the end of the day it doesn't affect me. You could argue that actions from the Coalition (Joyce) tarnished the 'affair' pun alert. They have also fell well behind in party gender balance.

We saw at the beginning of their time in power Hockey talking about 'lifters and leaners', completely out of touch - 'if you can't afford the cost of living, get a better job'. Now all of a sudden the PM is an ordinary 'Joe' pun alert.

There's been some other abuses of power such as the Dutton aupaire issue and Susan Ley using taxpayer funds to build her property portfolio. The MP causing a scene at a Canberra restaurant by completely embarrassing a Pacific island dignitary. I'm sure there has been many more of these little issues, just seemed like we lurched from one to the next so it's difficult to remember them all.

Now coming back around, even if the Labor NG policy is a failure, for me it doesn't outweigh all the other things (that I've listed above) that they have completely **** up. But this is just my opinion I guess. I honestly don't know how anybody can suggest that the Coalition deserve another term?

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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by T_R » February 12, 2019, 8:56 pm

Not me, that's for sure. Burn 'em to the ground and start again. Sure as hell not getting my vote.

I look foward to you holding Labor to the same standards....cause you may recall the complete snd utter **** show they were last time they were in power.
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Son, we live in a world that has forums, and those forums have to be guarded by Mods. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Nickman? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Lucy, and you curse GE. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know -- that GE’s moderation, while tragic, probably saved lives; and my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, keeps threads on track and under the appropriately sized, highlighted green headings.
You want moderation because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that forum -- you need me on that forum. We use words like "stay on topic," "use the appropriate forum," "please delete." We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very moderation that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather that you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you get a green handle and edit a post. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think about moderation.

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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by papabear » February 12, 2019, 9:06 pm

just because I do not have any chips in that direct pot doesnt mean I can’t call a spade a spade.

A govt tanking an asset class is stupid policy. Gifts should stay on the sidelines and keep their snouts in the trough.

A govt tanking an already tanking asset class, well you can pick the adjective for that one.

What I haven’t answered for myself is:-

Do a prefer a world without this **** policy.

Or do I prefer the **** policy to come in and tank the market more so I can float on thegh?

The fact is if the coalition came up with this **** policy I would have called it. Just like I pointed at my disdain to the child care changes.

However, it appears that people here either think tanking assets are good?? Or labor policy should be defended at all costs regardless of the truth.

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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by papabear » February 12, 2019, 9:14 pm

T_R wrote:
February 12, 2019, 7:08 pm
Papa, that's just wrong. The plumber in this instance is working as a company. To use that money, he has to declare a dividend and pay it out. At that point, he has to pay the balance of the tax owing.

He can defer the tax bill somewhat through a trust, but he pays before he can access it.
I’m not sure where I am wrong if u could be more specific ?

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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by T_R » February 12, 2019, 9:33 pm

papabear wrote:
T_R wrote:
February 12, 2019, 7:08 pm
Papa, that's just wrong. The plumber in this instance is working as a company. To use that money, he has to declare a dividend and pay it out. At that point, he has to pay the balance of the tax owing.

He can defer the tax bill somewhat through a trust, but he pays before he can access it.
I’m not sure where I am wrong if u could be more specific ?
You are wrong.

Im not sure how much clearer I can make it. Company tax is paid at the 25% rate. The plumber then holds the balance in his trading company, PAPADDOESNTHAVEACLUE Plumbing Services Pty Ltd. But it's not his money. It's the company's.

So, at the end of the year, he declares a dividend - basically dispursing the profit minus the 25% tax from PAPADOESNTHAVEACLUE Pty Ltd to his own account.

At that point, he pays the difference between the 25% and the income tax rate that is owed on that level of earnings.

Make sense?
Image

Son, we live in a world that has forums, and those forums have to be guarded by Mods. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Nickman? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Lucy, and you curse GE. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know -- that GE’s moderation, while tragic, probably saved lives; and my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, keeps threads on track and under the appropriately sized, highlighted green headings.
You want moderation because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that forum -- you need me on that forum. We use words like "stay on topic," "use the appropriate forum," "please delete." We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very moderation that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather that you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you get a green handle and edit a post. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think about moderation.

gergreg
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by gergreg » February 12, 2019, 9:45 pm

papabear wrote:just because I do not have any chips in that direct pot doesnt mean I can’t call a spade a spade.

A govt tanking an asset class is stupid policy. Gifts should stay on the sidelines and keep their snouts in the trough.

A govt tanking an already tanking asset class, well you can pick the adjective for that one.

What I haven’t answered for myself is:-

Do a prefer a world without this **** policy.

Or do I prefer the **** policy to come in and tank the market more so I can float on thegh?

The fact is if the coalition came up with this **** policy I would have called it. Just like I pointed at my disdain to the child care changes.

However, it appears that people here either think tanking assets are good?? Or labor policy should be defended at all costs regardless of the truth.
Do/did you have an issue with the introduction of the FHOG which immediately inflated the property market? Do you agree with the increase in immigration that has affected the prices? Do you agree with the loosening of foreign investor rules allowing foreign buyers to purchase and inflate the market? Then, now with a bit of push back on that issue they tightened it up again which correlates with the beginning of the current dip in the market? Add in record low interest rates for many years.

It just seems that you have ignored all these factors and blame the current dip on a policy that isn't even applied and yet to be proven whether or not it will have any affect?

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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by gergreg » February 12, 2019, 10:26 pm

T_R wrote:Not me, that's for sure. Burn 'em to the ground and start again. Sure as hell not getting my vote.

I look foward to you holding Labor to the same standards....cause you may recall the complete snd utter **** show they were last time they were in power.
Yeah they screwed up last time but even so there was no way in hell that voting in Tony **** Abbott was a better alternative.

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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by T_R » February 13, 2019, 8:18 am

gergreg wrote:
February 12, 2019, 10:26 pm
T_R wrote:Not me, that's for sure. Burn 'em to the ground and start again. Sure as hell not getting my vote.

I look foward to you holding Labor to the same standards....cause you may recall the complete snd utter **** show they were last time they were in power.
Yeah they screwed up last time but even so there was no way in hell that voting in Tony **** Abbott was a better alternative.

Sent from my SM-G570F using Tapatalk
I've posted my little list before, but just think back to the policy achievements of the Rudd/Gillard/Rudd Greens coalition. Life-changing reforms such as Grocery Watch, Fuel Watch, Climate Change “greatest moral challenge” abandonment, Copenhagen, $275 million for 31 (later 450) GP Super Clinics promised, with only three delivered, the $2.1 Billion Laptop for every child – without infrastructure, the Mandatory Internet Filter, the Commonwealth Health takeover 'reform', the Murray Darling River State non-deal, Asylum Boat people arrivals explosion, bank interest rates rises due to over stimulus, the stunning roll back of Industrial relations, massive delivery failure of Public Housing promises, the 2020 Summit, the 'reform' of election funding, the $3.45 billion pink bat Home Insulation debacle, the $275 Million Green Loans debacle, the introduction and then immediate abandonment of political advertising ombudsmans office, the broken promise to halve homeless by 2020 / by 20% by 2013, the non-construction of 222 childcare centres , the utter devastation of the international education industry, the horrendous Pacific Workers Scheme failure, the mining Tax mis-design, mis-management and farcical implementation, the $1 Billion Cash for Clunkers....

And that's ignoring the economic vandalism wrought at the demands of the unions - Gillard's 'Modern Awards', for a start, that tore the heart out of businesses in regional Australia and did more to move business back to the major captials that any move in the country's history.

The lNP will lose the next election and bloody well should, but I really hope that you hold the coming Shorten/Albanese regime to the same standards of frustrated eye rolling that you have the morons of the Abbott/Turnbull/ScoMo farce.
Image

Son, we live in a world that has forums, and those forums have to be guarded by Mods. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Nickman? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Lucy, and you curse GE. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know -- that GE’s moderation, while tragic, probably saved lives; and my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, keeps threads on track and under the appropriately sized, highlighted green headings.
You want moderation because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that forum -- you need me on that forum. We use words like "stay on topic," "use the appropriate forum," "please delete." We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very moderation that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather that you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you get a green handle and edit a post. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think about moderation.

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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by papabear » February 13, 2019, 10:09 am

T_R wrote:
February 12, 2019, 9:33 pm
papabear wrote:
T_R wrote:
February 12, 2019, 7:08 pm
Papa, that's just wrong. The plumber in this instance is working as a company. To use that money, he has to declare a dividend and pay it out. At that point, he has to pay the balance of the tax owing.

He can defer the tax bill somewhat through a trust, but he pays before he can access it.
I’m not sure where I am wrong if u could be more specific ?
You are wrong.

Im not sure how much clearer I can make it. Company tax is paid at the 25% rate. The plumber then holds the balance in his trading company, PAPADDOESNTHAVEACLUE Plumbing Services Pty Ltd. But it's not his money. It's the company's.

So, at the end of the year, he declares a dividend - basically dispursing the profit minus the 25% tax from PAPADOESNTHAVEACLUE Pty Ltd to his own account.

At that point, he pays the difference between the 25% and the income tax rate that is owed on that level of earnings.

Make sense?
Hey TR

I dont know why you would have such a mean name for your plumbing company.

But in my example under the current system example I used (i used an approximate 30% tax rate not 25%) I did distribute the monies back to him and gave him tax credits at 30%.

To go into more detail with my plumbing company example. (using rounded numbers and a 30% co tax rate)

100k gross wage
73k net
27k PAYG

285k Company profit
85k company tax
200k loan-> dividend (forget about defering for a yr for ease)

The dividend is grossed up (back to 285k to work out your tax payable)
So you taxable income is effectively 385k
Tax payable is 154k
Tax already paid or credited
27k PAYG
85K credit
42k more to go.

That gets you the difference between the two rates?Unless I am wrong and you only have to pay tax on the net dividend but get the benefit of the credit? that being the case, fantastic but illogical.

The first example was just calculating the tax payable if you tax franking credits didnt exist but you did not have to play income tax on shares, as per the previous posters suggestion.

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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by The Rickman » February 13, 2019, 10:20 am

T_R wrote:
February 13, 2019, 8:18 am
gergreg wrote:
February 12, 2019, 10:26 pm
T_R wrote:Not me, that's for sure. Burn 'em to the ground and start again. Sure as hell not getting my vote.

I look foward to you holding Labor to the same standards....cause you may recall the complete snd utter **** show they were last time they were in power.
Yeah they screwed up last time but even so there was no way in hell that voting in Tony **** Abbott was a better alternative.

Sent from my SM-G570F using Tapatalk
I've posted my little list before, but just think back to the policy achievements of the Rudd/Gillard/Rudd Greens coalition. Life-changing reforms such as Grocery Watch, Fuel Watch, Climate Change “greatest moral challenge” abandonment, Copenhagen, $275 million for 31 (later 450) GP Super Clinics promised, with only three delivered, the $2.1 Billion Laptop for every child – without infrastructure, the Mandatory Internet Filter, the Commonwealth Health takeover 'reform', the Murray Darling River State non-deal, Asylum Boat people arrivals explosion, bank interest rates rises due to over stimulus, the stunning roll back of Industrial relations, massive delivery failure of Public Housing promises, the 2020 Summit, the 'reform' of election funding, the $3.45 billion pink bat Home Insulation debacle, the $275 Million Green Loans debacle, the introduction and then immediate abandonment of political advertising ombudsmans office, the broken promise to halve homeless by 2020 / by 20% by 2013, the non-construction of 222 childcare centres , the utter devastation of the international education industry, the horrendous Pacific Workers Scheme failure, the mining Tax mis-design, mis-management and farcical implementation, the $1 Billion Cash for Clunkers....

And that's ignoring the economic vandalism wrought at the demands of the unions - Gillard's 'Modern Awards', for a start, that tore the heart out of businesses in regional Australia and did more to move business back to the major captials that any move in the country's history.

The lNP will lose the next election and bloody well should, but I really hope that you hold the coming Shorten/Albanese regime to the same standards of frustrated eye rolling that you have the morons of the Abbott/Turnbull/ScoMo farce.
You know as well as I do that he won't, TR. Just like I'll bet those HILARIOUS Australien (sic) Government ads completely dry up as soon as Labor are back in power.

Fortunately it won't be soon though, as Shorten ain't beating ScoMo.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by papabear » February 13, 2019, 10:29 am

gergreg wrote:
February 12, 2019, 9:45 pm
papabear wrote:just because I do not have any chips in that direct pot doesnt mean I can’t call a spade a spade.

A govt tanking an asset class is stupid policy. Gifts should stay on the sidelines and keep their snouts in the trough.

A govt tanking an already tanking asset class, well you can pick the adjective for that one.

What I haven’t answered for myself is:-

Do a prefer a world without this **** policy.

Or do I prefer the **** policy to come in and tank the market more so I can float on thegh?

The fact is if the coalition came up with this **** policy I would have called it. Just like I pointed at my disdain to the child care changes.

However, it appears that people here either think tanking assets are good?? Or labor policy should be defended at all costs regardless of the truth.
Do/did you have an issue with the introduction of the FHOG which immediately inflated the property market? Do you agree with the increase in immigration that has affected the prices? Do you agree with the loosening of foreign investor rules allowing foreign buyers to purchase and inflate the market? Then, now with a bit of push back on that issue they tightened it up again which correlates with the beginning of the current dip in the market? Add in record low interest rates for many years.

It just seems that you have ignored all these factors and blame the current dip on a policy that isn't even applied and yet to be proven whether or not it will have any affect?

Sent from my SM-G570F using Tapatalk
Hold on a second whilst the market might be pricing in policy changes, to suggest otherwise would be dishonest, the market always prices in what it anticipates happening in the future.

I think the two main things in play regarding property are:-
- Increases to stamp duty to foreign owners (which I disagree with, its just Bull racist money grabbing)
- Tighter lending standards(ie not as much interest only loans)
- Prices were getting out of hand to high.

The market is reacting to the above three things mostly and labors policy would be affecting confidence but not as much as the above three things.

Lets have a look at each of your policies:-
- FHOG - Do I agree no, but correct me if I am wrong, but I picked this up during labors years in charge?
- Immigration - depends on the day for me. In general, I think the world should have far more open borders then it does, but to achieve that you need to do a lot of things and I certainly I am not sure that we should be the one leading for that sort of push.
- loosening the foreign investment rules? such as? the only rules I ever read are increasing them - i.e. more stamp duty, you now have to build etc etc.
- low interest rates? that is what it is.

IMO the australian housing market and all land around the world should be taxed as minimally as possible.

There should be no stamp duty, no CGT, nothing on land, then there is also no interest tax deductions, I would have it outside of governments tax systems except for the fees and charges in registering stuff, to be cost neutral not 500M positive and then sold to a corporation. Then when prices are to high and unaffordable they will come down, when they are to low they will go up. Right now though you still have way more govt taxes on property then incentives, the only thing helping is the fact that income and business are also taxed through the wazoo so its considered a decent place to put your money.

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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by papabear » February 13, 2019, 10:31 am

The Nickman wrote:
February 13, 2019, 10:20 am
T_R wrote:
February 13, 2019, 8:18 am
gergreg wrote:
February 12, 2019, 10:26 pm
T_R wrote:Not me, that's for sure. Burn 'em to the ground and start again. Sure as hell not getting my vote.

I look foward to you holding Labor to the same standards....cause you may recall the complete snd utter **** show they were last time they were in power.
Yeah they screwed up last time but even so there was no way in hell that voting in Tony **** Abbott was a better alternative.

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I've posted my little list before, but just think back to the policy achievements of the Rudd/Gillard/Rudd Greens coalition. Life-changing reforms such as Grocery Watch, Fuel Watch, Climate Change “greatest moral challenge” abandonment, Copenhagen, $275 million for 31 (later 450) GP Super Clinics promised, with only three delivered, the $2.1 Billion Laptop for every child – without infrastructure, the Mandatory Internet Filter, the Commonwealth Health takeover 'reform', the Murray Darling River State non-deal, Asylum Boat people arrivals explosion, bank interest rates rises due to over stimulus, the stunning roll back of Industrial relations, massive delivery failure of Public Housing promises, the 2020 Summit, the 'reform' of election funding, the $3.45 billion pink bat Home Insulation debacle, the $275 Million Green Loans debacle, the introduction and then immediate abandonment of political advertising ombudsmans office, the broken promise to halve homeless by 2020 / by 20% by 2013, the non-construction of 222 childcare centres , the utter devastation of the international education industry, the horrendous Pacific Workers Scheme failure, the mining Tax mis-design, mis-management and farcical implementation, the $1 Billion Cash for Clunkers....

And that's ignoring the economic vandalism wrought at the demands of the unions - Gillard's 'Modern Awards', for a start, that tore the heart out of businesses in regional Australia and did more to move business back to the major captials that any move in the country's history.

The lNP will lose the next election and bloody well should, but I really hope that you hold the coming Shorten/Albanese regime to the same standards of frustrated eye rolling that you have the morons of the Abbott/Turnbull/ScoMo farce.
You know as well as I do that he won't, TR. Just like I'll bet those HILARIOUS Australien (sic) Government ads completely dry up as soon as Labor are back in power.

Fortunately it won't be soon though, as Shorten ain't beating ScoMo.
Unfortunately with current news cycle, political climate and voting system I would be very very wary of betting on the scomo.

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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by gergreg » February 13, 2019, 10:45 am

The Nickman wrote:
T_R wrote:
February 13, 2019, 8:18 am
gergreg wrote:
February 12, 2019, 10:26 pm
T_R wrote:Not me, that's for sure. Burn 'em to the ground and start again. Sure as hell not getting my vote.

I look foward to you holding Labor to the same standards....cause you may recall the complete snd utter **** show they were last time they were in power.
Yeah they screwed up last time but even so there was no way in hell that voting in Tony **** Abbott was a better alternative.

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I've posted my little list before, but just think back to the policy achievements of the Rudd/Gillard/Rudd Greens coalition. Life-changing reforms such as Grocery Watch, Fuel Watch, Climate Change “greatest moral challenge” abandonment, Copenhagen, $275 million for 31 (later 450) GP Super Clinics promised, with only three delivered, the $2.1 Billion Laptop for every child – without infrastructure, the Mandatory Internet Filter, the Commonwealth Health takeover 'reform', the Murray Darling River State non-deal, Asylum Boat people arrivals explosion, bank interest rates rises due to over stimulus, the stunning roll back of Industrial relations, massive delivery failure of Public Housing promises, the 2020 Summit, the 'reform' of election funding, the $3.45 billion pink bat Home Insulation debacle, the $275 Million Green Loans debacle, the introduction and then immediate abandonment of political advertising ombudsmans office, the broken promise to halve homeless by 2020 / by 20% by 2013, the non-construction of 222 childcare centres , the utter devastation of the international education industry, the horrendous Pacific Workers Scheme failure, the mining Tax mis-design, mis-management and farcical implementation, the $1 Billion Cash for Clunkers....

And that's ignoring the economic vandalism wrought at the demands of the unions - Gillard's 'Modern Awards', for a start, that tore the heart out of businesses in regional Australia and did more to move business back to the major captials that any move in the country's history.

The lNP will lose the next election and bloody well should, but I really hope that you hold the coming Shorten/Albanese regime to the same standards of frustrated eye rolling that you have the morons of the Abbott/Turnbull/ScoMo farce.
You know as well as I do that he won't, TR. Just like I'll bet those HILARIOUS Australien (sic) Government ads completely dry up as soon as Labor are back in power.

Fortunately it won't be soon though, as Shorten ain't beating ScoMo.
T_R I'll certainly be watching more closely. However when I look at all the 'failures' you have listed I think a lot of those initiatives were well intended but poorly executed. I've found that the ALP ideology resonates with me. Trying to give everybody a fair go. The other side has/had a tendency to strip conditions of low to mid income earners to channel more money into wealthy people. Generally speaking.



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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by gergreg » February 13, 2019, 10:56 am

papabear wrote:
gergreg wrote:
February 12, 2019, 9:45 pm
papabear wrote:just because I do not have any chips in that direct pot doesnt mean I can’t call a spade a spade.

A govt tanking an asset class is stupid policy. Gifts should stay on the sidelines and keep their snouts in the trough.

A govt tanking an already tanking asset class, well you can pick the adjective for that one.

What I haven’t answered for myself is:-

Do a prefer a world without this **** policy.

Or do I prefer the **** policy to come in and tank the market more so I can float on thegh?

The fact is if the coalition came up with this **** policy I would have called it. Just like I pointed at my disdain to the child care changes.

However, it appears that people here either think tanking assets are good?? Or labor policy should be defended at all costs regardless of the truth.
Do/did you have an issue with the introduction of the FHOG which immediately inflated the property market? Do you agree with the increase in immigration that has affected the prices? Do you agree with the loosening of foreign investor rules allowing foreign buyers to purchase and inflate the market? Then, now with a bit of push back on that issue they tightened it up again which correlates with the beginning of the current dip in the market? Add in record low interest rates for many years.

It just seems that you have ignored all these factors and blame the current dip on a policy that isn't even applied and yet to be proven whether or not it will have any affect?

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Hold on a second whilst the market might be pricing in policy changes, to suggest otherwise would be dishonest, the market always prices in what it anticipates happening in the future.

I think the two main things in play regarding property are:-
- Increases to stamp duty to foreign owners (which I disagree with, its just Bull racist money grabbing)
- Tighter lending standards(ie not as much interest only loans)
- Prices were getting out of hand to high.

The market is reacting to the above three things mostly and labors policy would be affecting confidence but not as much as the above three things.

Lets have a look at each of your policies:-
- FHOG - Do I agree no, but correct me if I am wrong, but I picked this up during labors years in charge?
- Immigration - depends on the day for me. In general, I think the world should have far more open borders then it does, but to achieve that you need to do a lot of things and I certainly I am not sure that we should be the one leading for that sort of push.
- loosening the foreign investment rules? such as? the only rules I ever read are increasing them - i.e. more stamp duty, you now have to build etc etc.
- low interest rates? that is what it is.

IMO the australian housing market and all land around the world should be taxed as minimally as possible.

There should be no stamp duty, no CGT, nothing on land, then there is also no interest tax deductions, I would have it outside of governments tax systems except for the fees and charges in registering stuff, to be cost neutral not 500M positive and then sold to a corporation. Then when prices are to high and unaffordable they will come down, when they are to low they will go up. Right now though you still have way more govt taxes on property then incentives, the only thing helping is the fact that income and business are also taxed through the wazoo so its considered a decent place to put your money.
Most of the hand wringing on immigration is how it is impacting our infrastructure. Well why don't they improve the infrastructure? Wouldn't that be also good for employment?

I don't understand how a country can contribute to wars in foreign countries and the displacement of it's citizens and then refuse them entry into your country.

I don't understand how a country can largely ignore climate change then refuse to allow affected people/countries into your country? There will come a time when people from affected countries will come whether we like it or not so doesn't it make sense to do everything within our power to prevent that from happening? But I guess it's more important for people like Nickman to bury their head in the sand or in this case the mine because his six figure salary is more important than the future generations living in a harsher world, climate wise?

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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by The Rickman » February 13, 2019, 11:20 am

Hahaha you went where... what??
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by gergreg » February 13, 2019, 11:59 am

The Nickman wrote:Hahaha you went where... what??
So it's ok for you to fire a few cheap shots and not expect a response? I look forward to you going into an absolute spin, again, when anybody in politics has the intestinal fortitude to place the environment before the mining industry.

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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by T_R » February 13, 2019, 12:14 pm

gergreg wrote:
February 13, 2019, 10:45 am
T_R I'll certainly be watching more closely. However when I look at all the 'failures' you have listed I think a lot of those initiatives were well intended but poorly executed.
That's kind of my point. We're faced with the choice between the well-intentioned incompetent and the mean spirited. Though, to be fair, the last two terms have been mean spirited incompetence, so we've had the best of both worlds.

As for 'giving everyone a fair go' - well, who could argue with that? Unfortunately, a laudable concept has morphed into the unedifying sight of Bill, whose extremely wealthy lawyer parents ensured that he went to all the best schools before the Unions financed his MBA at the very best university, putting on his best impression of a working class accent to attack 'Mista Turnbull' for being a rich guy who went to the best schools and universities in some imagined appeal to a warfare between classes that the highest minimum wage in the world has ensured hardly even exists. That's not 'giving everyone a fair go', it's appealing to the nastiest side of the politics of envy and loathing, which is what I believe modern Labor is much more about.
Image

Son, we live in a world that has forums, and those forums have to be guarded by Mods. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Nickman? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Lucy, and you curse GE. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know -- that GE’s moderation, while tragic, probably saved lives; and my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, keeps threads on track and under the appropriately sized, highlighted green headings.
You want moderation because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that forum -- you need me on that forum. We use words like "stay on topic," "use the appropriate forum," "please delete." We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very moderation that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather that you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you get a green handle and edit a post. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think about moderation.

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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by gergreg » February 13, 2019, 1:00 pm

T_R wrote:
gergreg wrote:
February 13, 2019, 10:45 am
T_R I'll certainly be watching more closely. However when I look at all the 'failures' you have listed I think a lot of those initiatives were well intended but poorly executed.
That's kind of my point. We're faced with the choice between the well-intentioned incompetent and the mean spirited. Though, to be fair, the last two terms have been mean spirited incompetence, so we've had the best of both worlds.

As for 'giving everyone a fair go' - well, who could argue with that? Unfortunately, a laudable concept has morphed into the unedifying sight of Bill, whose extremely wealthy lawyer parents ensured that he went to all the best schools before the Unions financed his MBA at the very best university, putting on his best impression of a working class accent to attack 'Mista Turnbull' for being a rich guy who went to the best schools and universities in some imagined appeal to a warfare between classes that the highest minimum wage in the world has ensured hardly even exists. That's not 'giving everyone a fair go', it's appealing to the nastiest side of the politics of envy and loathing, which is what I believe modern Labor is much more about.
All fair points. In previous times I probably would have made more of the snobbish or elitist attributes members of the Liberal party possess but I've had the misfortune of meeting elements from both sides and they're all (generally speaking) different to normal people.

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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by T_R » February 13, 2019, 1:09 pm

Well, this is boring.
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Son, we live in a world that has forums, and those forums have to be guarded by Mods. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Nickman? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Lucy, and you curse GE. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know -- that GE’s moderation, while tragic, probably saved lives; and my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, keeps threads on track and under the appropriately sized, highlighted green headings.
You want moderation because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that forum -- you need me on that forum. We use words like "stay on topic," "use the appropriate forum," "please delete." We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very moderation that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather that you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you get a green handle and edit a post. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think about moderation.

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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by T_R » February 13, 2019, 1:11 pm

gergreg wrote:
February 13, 2019, 1:00 pm
T_R wrote:
gergreg wrote:
February 13, 2019, 10:45 am
T_R I'll certainly be watching more closely. However when I look at all the 'failures' you have listed I think a lot of those initiatives were well intended but poorly executed.
That's kind of my point. We're faced with the choice between the well-intentioned incompetent and the mean spirited. Though, to be fair, the last two terms have been mean spirited incompetence, so we've had the best of both worlds.

As for 'giving everyone a fair go' - well, who could argue with that? Unfortunately, a laudable concept has morphed into the unedifying sight of Bill, whose extremely wealthy lawyer parents ensured that he went to all the best schools before the Unions financed his MBA at the very best university, putting on his best impression of a working class accent to attack 'Mista Turnbull' for being a rich guy who went to the best schools and universities in some imagined appeal to a warfare between classes that the highest minimum wage in the world has ensured hardly even exists. That's not 'giving everyone a fair go', it's appealing to the nastiest side of the politics of envy and loathing, which is what I believe modern Labor is much more about.
All fair points. In previous times I probably would have made more of the snobbish or elitist attributes members of the Liberal party possess but I've had the misfortune of meeting elements from both sides and they're all (generally speaking) different to normal people.

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True story, I was a member of the Labor party until I met Tanya Plibersek on her first 'meet the electorate' branch tour, and since then have never paid them a cent.

The ideals of our party are waaaaaaay nicer than those you represent them.
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Son, we live in a world that has forums, and those forums have to be guarded by Mods. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Nickman? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Lucy, and you curse GE. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know -- that GE’s moderation, while tragic, probably saved lives; and my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, keeps threads on track and under the appropriately sized, highlighted green headings.
You want moderation because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that forum -- you need me on that forum. We use words like "stay on topic," "use the appropriate forum," "please delete." We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very moderation that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather that you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you get a green handle and edit a post. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think about moderation.

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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by papabear » February 13, 2019, 1:48 pm

gergreg wrote:
February 13, 2019, 10:56 am
Most of the hand wringing on immigration is how it is impacting our infrastructure. Well why don't they improve the infrastructure? Wouldn't that be also good for employment?

I don't understand how a country can contribute to wars in foreign countries and the displacement of it's citizens and then refuse them entry into your country.

I don't understand how a country can largely ignore climate change then refuse to allow affected people/countries into your country? There will come a time when people from affected countries will come whether we like it or not so doesn't it make sense to do everything within our power to prevent that from happening? But I guess it's more important for people like Nickman to bury their head in the sand or in this case the mine because his six figure salary is more important than the future generations living in a harsher world, climate wise?

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I, 100% agree with more spending on infrastructure.

Most of infrastructure is a state issue and really you would have to be blind freddy to argue bob carr / labor did more in their years in charge compared to the couple of years of NSW.

The next question is delivery of infrastructure. No point going there but we all sat on the trains for 15 years with labor in charge not getting the chatswood to Macquarie link up let alone the norwest rail link up.

Another interesting thing to consider, is which govt is more likely to pull money from other areas armed forces / health / education / administration / welfare and direct it into infrastructure.

The only foreseeable way Labor builds anything of value is if they either:-

- a - tax us more (highly likely)
- b - borrow more (highly likely)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Climate Change / Wars

An argument that we should be doing everything possible to stop climate change to stop migration here is a bit weak in my opinion.

I agree that the environment should be at the fore front of everything we as a nation / government should do. But the above argument is meh.

If the worlds climate goes to ****, a good 80% of our land mass is either dry or a desert, the remaining 20% whilst being pretty stable is subject to all sorts of cyclones / flooding and **** up north.

I fail to see climate change helping Australia to be a country of choice any more then it is now from purely economic reasons.

The Coalition has been and continues to be very weak on the environment, however, when you break down the environment into:-
- Deforestation - Australia as a whole is ok with this labor / liberal
- water policy - Both parties are pretty ****, but again labor being the incompetent **** that they are just make a mess of it.
- Energy - see above but reverse it.

As for Wars, whilst I like an open border policy, I disagree with an argument that if you deem it necessary to lay the smack down on a country that you should then open your borders to the same people that you deemed it necessary to open a can of how is your mother on.

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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by The Rickman » February 13, 2019, 2:40 pm

gergreg wrote:
February 13, 2019, 11:59 am
The Nickman wrote:Hahaha you went where... what??
So it's ok for you to fire a few cheap shots and not expect a response? I look forward to you going into an absolute spin, again, when anybody in politics has the intestinal fortitude to place the environment before the mining industry.

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Well I guess that would make it the first time I've done it ever, so I suppose I'm looking forward to that too!
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by gergreg » February 13, 2019, 3:15 pm

The Nickman wrote:
gergreg wrote:
February 13, 2019, 11:59 am
The Nickman wrote:Hahaha you went where... what??
So it's ok for you to fire a few cheap shots and not expect a response? I look forward to you going into an absolute spin, again, when anybody in politics has the intestinal fortitude to place the environment before the mining industry.

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Well I guess that would make it the first time I've done it ever, so I suppose I'm looking forward to that too!
I distinctly remember you going into full on shill mode at the mere mention of the 'carbon tax'.

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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by The Rickman » February 13, 2019, 3:18 pm

Hahaha I really don't remember that, there's only one of us that I remember having a completely over-the-top reaction to something someone else said online, and it certainly wasn't me.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by gergreg » February 13, 2019, 3:44 pm

Haha indeed. You must be referring to someone shadowboxing off the forum and swearing they would never return, only to slink back in mere months later?

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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by T_R » February 13, 2019, 4:06 pm

Oh, this is getting good.
Image

Son, we live in a world that has forums, and those forums have to be guarded by Mods. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Nickman? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Lucy, and you curse GE. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know -- that GE’s moderation, while tragic, probably saved lives; and my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, keeps threads on track and under the appropriately sized, highlighted green headings.
You want moderation because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that forum -- you need me on that forum. We use words like "stay on topic," "use the appropriate forum," "please delete." We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very moderation that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather that you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you get a green handle and edit a post. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think about moderation.

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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by The Rickman » February 13, 2019, 4:20 pm

gergreg wrote:
February 13, 2019, 3:44 pm
Haha indeed. You must be referring to someone shadowboxing off the forum and swearing they would never return, only to slink back in mere months later?

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Haha look, that's between you and him, I don't want to get involved in THAT one, but it IS the incident I was referring to, yes.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by gergreg » February 13, 2019, 4:33 pm

The Nickman wrote:
gergreg wrote:
February 13, 2019, 3:44 pm
Haha indeed. You must be referring to someone shadowboxing off the forum and swearing they would never return, only to slink back in mere months later?

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Haha look, that's between you and him, I don't want to get involved in THAT one, but it IS the incident I was referring to, yes.
I make no apologies for standing up for my children. I'm sure you would do the same.

Sorry it's hard to keep up but if we're having digs at character and stuff posted in years gone by? EDIT

Edit: oh yeah haha don't want to get involved in that one but you bring it up a year later. What a stand-up guy huh.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by The Rickman » February 13, 2019, 4:37 pm

He wasn't having a go at your children!! This is a fantastic rewriting of history, gerg.
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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by gergreg » February 13, 2019, 4:54 pm

For someone not wanting to get involved you sure are getting involved. Good for you.

Let me know when you have children and we can open up a dialogue on a public forum about rape, incest and abuse using your children as a reference point - seeing you know you're cool with that?

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Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by greeneyed » February 13, 2019, 4:56 pm

Rarely would I say we are off topic in this thread... but back on topic thanks.
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Location: Rockhampton, Central Queensland

Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by The Rickman » February 13, 2019, 5:25 pm

Hahaha of course, Fergus. Apologies Gerg.
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2012 Golden Boogs Newbie of the Year
2013 'Nella Awards Best Punter
2013 Boogs Thread of the Year ~ The Betting Thread
2014 Boogs Matthew Elliott Award Winner
2014 Boogs some award with Hanbush

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PigRickman
Mal Meninga
Posts: 25559
Joined: June 18, 2013, 4:31 pm
Favourite Player: Nick Cotric

Re: The Politics Thread 2018

Post by PigRickman » February 13, 2019, 7:09 pm

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The List - K.Love, Keno, Zippy's tennis angels, LA Lakers, Noah, Boozer, Lucy's horse tips, Colts, Lucy, Kevin Proctor, Dr Zaius, TR, Tinfoil hatted Gangers and Woody, anyone in Raiders HQ who can point to QBN on a map....

Matt wrote:
July 18, 2018, 3:49 pm
Edrick Lee 5. Jordan Rapana
Matt wrote:
June 25, 2019, 9:29 pm
Reed Mahoney 9. Josh Hodgson ©
Coaching Power Rankings: Ricky Stuart - Top 2, and he ain't 2.

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