Raiders player signing speculation 2018

[Sid]

NRL games hold more weight to them than ESL games. Whilst R Sutton has 121 ESL games to his name (a lot from the bench?), one of the main guys he’s competing against for a top 17 spot is the same as with 71 NRL games to theirs.

[julian87]

There is no way Sutton is moving from the UK to Canberra on the minimum NRL wage after playing 100 ESL games. He isn't Jordan Turner.

Not sure Turner is the best example, he had 200.

Turner was an old journeyman who never looked like being a genuine rep player in one of Wnglands weakest periods though. There’s a pretty big difference imo.

[nemesis]

I think a couple of other clubs chasing him too or at least his agent would've created that impression. That would've pushed his price up.

Plus we overpay everyone.

cronulla were after him and bateman.

i highly doubt we overpay everyone as you and some would like to assume, we have a pretty descent squad, that would not be possible if we over payed everyone

[Botman]

i highly doubt we overpay everyone as you and some would like to assume

[edwahu]

I think a couple of other clubs chasing him too or at least his agent would've created that impression. That would've pushed his price up.

Plus we overpay everyone.

cronulla were after him and bateman.

i highly doubt we overpay everyone as you and some would like to assume, we have a pretty descent squad, that would not be possible if we over payed everyone

Ok, maybe not everyone, but a hell of a lot are overpaid. Our squad really isn't that great, bottom 8 going into 2019.

[dubby]

Our squad is over paid.

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[Ruben Daley]

Yep, sorry, Nemesis. Hard to argue that our squad is being paid accurately considering we have finished tenth twice in a row.

I don’t reckon there’d be too many salaries that are diabolically overpriced. But rather that most of our guys are good so can argue for pretty good coin and we pay them close to the top of their relevant range.

But an NRL squad really needs some guys to be paid less than their on-field contribution is worth and I don’t feel like we have that because, if we did, we’d have some room in the cap.

[nemesis]

not saying out team doesn't underachieve because clearly they have been for years but that doesn't mean everyone is over payed.

if we managed to win the games we should have like the one's we lost where we had healthy leads with not long to go then i think last year would have been spot on considering the bad season guy's like austin and the front rowers had.

plenty of good teams underachieve every year and one's that over achieve, that is sport really, hopefully we have made the right adjustments needed to improve, only thing i can see we need is a good half but they aren't exactly easy to come by

[gerg]

not saying out team doesn't underachieve because clearly they have been for years but that doesn't mean everyone is over payed.

if we managed to win the games we should have like the one's we lost where we had healthy leads with not long to go then i think last year would have been spot on considering the bad season guy's like austin and the front rowers had.

plenty of good teams underachieve every year and one's that over achieve, that is sport really, hopefully we have made the right adjustments needed to improve, only thing i can see we need is a good half but they aren't exactly easy to come by

If only we'd won we wouldn't have lost.

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[dubby]

Players I think are probably over paid:

Sia
Croker
Wighton
Leilua



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[nemesis]

If only we'd won we wouldn't have lost.

wow really?? great chat, the kind i would expect from some on here really.

i hope you all from the doom and gloom house had a nice Christmas

[Botman]

If only we'd won we wouldn't have lost.

wow really?? great chat, the kind i would expect from some on here really.

i hope you all from the doom and gloom house had a nice Christmas

And a very merry Christmas to you, David. And all the Puddy family.

[Botman]

I've long said i have no loyalty to anyone at this club. Be it players, coaches, administrators. I'm not married to any of them, i don't feel any obligation to support any of them.

My loyalty and obligations resides with the entity that is the club, the colours of the jersey. Laundry. I've been following the Raiders since before i heard of any of these individuals, and i'll be following them long after I've forgotten about them. I don't hold any great loyalty to Jarrod Croker, Josh Papalii, Ricky Stuart, Don Furner, Jack Wighton, Nic Cotric or anyone, even Bae Hodgson.

If i think the individual is or can help this club achieve it's goals, then i'll happily support them. If i don't believe they are helping in that cause, or are capable of it, then AFAIC, as hard as they may be trying, as honest as their efforts may be, i could give a damn about them. They're highly paid professionals who are in, probably, the most results driven industry we have. Deliver, or get the **** out.

And i have even LESS time for fans who want to tell me or anyone i am obligated as a "fan" to be effusive with my praise of people who aren't delivering.

[Ruben Daley]

I've long said i have no loyalty to anyone at this club. Be it players, coaches, administrators. I'm not married to any of them, i don't feel any obligation to support any of them.

My loyalty and obligations resides with the entity that is the club, the colours of the jersey. Laundry. I've been following the Raiders since before i heard of any of these individuals, and i'll be following them long after I've forgotten about them. I don't hold any great loyalty to Jarrod Croker, Josh Papalii, Ricky Stuart, Don Furner, Jack Wighton, Nic Cotric or anyone, even Bae Hodgson.

If i think the individual is or can help this club achieve it's goals, then i'll happily support them. If i don't believe they are helping in that cause, or are capable of it, then AFAIC, as hard as they may be trying, as honest as their efforts may be, i could give a damn about them. They're highly paid professionals who are in, probably, the most results driven industry we have. Deliver, or get the **** out.

And i have even LESS time for fans who want to tell me or anyone i am obligated as a "fan" to be effusive with my praise of people who aren't delivering.

I’ve heard you say that before but is it entirely how you feel? Doesn’t some of your laundry love leak into support of the individual?

I believe the club isn’t managing the cap right. I also think they need to be more aggressive in their recruitment and retention. But I was not happy the other day when Don was talking about Rapa’s contract and saying he was in no rush to re-sign him.

Rapa will be a thirty-year-old winger next year, which normally means he’d be excess. I’d argue he’s been absolutely top level for the last few years in everything you’d want from a winger and is worth re-signing on pure ability.

But also he’s played his absolute max for every single play in green. Some days Rapa was the only positive I could take out of a game.

So despite wanting more business-like decisions from the club - a la Pigman Rules - I’d be really disappointed if they let him go unless he was asking for ridiculous money (which I’m very confident he isn’t).

Don’t you feel a bit like that?

[Ruben Daley]

Players I think are probably over paid:

Sia
Croker
Wighton
Leilua



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Interested to know what you think they’re on and what you think they’re worth, Dubs.

[Botman]

I’ve heard you say that before but is it entirely how you feel? Doesn’t some of your laundry love leak into support of the individual?

I believe the club isn’t managing the cap right. I also think they need to be more aggressive in their recruitment and retention. But I was not happy the other day when Don was talking about Rapa’s contract and saying he was in no rush to re-sign him.

Rapa will be a thirty-year-old winger next year, which normally means he’d be excess. I’d argue he’s been absolutely top level for the last few years in everything you’d want from a winger and is worth re-signing on pure ability.

But also he’s played his absolute max for every single play in green. Some days Rapa was the only positive I could take out of a game.

So despite wanting more business-like decisions from the club - a la Pigman Rules - I’d be really disappointed if they let him go unless he was asking for ridiculous money (which I’m very confident he isn’t).

Don’t you feel a bit like that?

In the specifics of Raps right now? Sure. Because i think he's an elite player and if he was asking for a reasonable wage and we let him walk without replacing him, it would make me again question the direction of the club under this regime.
In the broader sense, honestly?
Nope. I love Jordy Raps, i love Nic Cotric... both really good, really fun players who i enjoy watching. I'll continue to enjoy watching them and love them with every fibre of my fanship being until such time as they are no longer contributors. At which point, they gotta go.
Now if they contribute to a special moment in the clubs history, a premiership... then they'll earn more reverence. I wouldnt piss on Ricky Stuart if he was on fire as a coach, but ill go to my grave believing he was the best halfback i've ever seen play the game.

But as it stands right now, if getting a quality half or coach meant losing Jordan Rapana or Nic Cotric and i thought that was a step forward towards a premiership... much as i appreciate those dudes, i'd do it without even blinking. I'd remember them fondly, when topics like come up and im forced to think of people i enjoyed in bad teams, like Lesley Vainikolo

I like those guys, i enjoy cheering for them, certainly id rather have them in the side than our deadbeat fullback (also they're better footballers), but ultimately i have come to terms with what my fandom is. Its laundry. It's the entity and it's the colours. When it comes down to it, I dont stump for Jordan Rapana, i stump for the Canberra Raiders.

[Ruben Daley]

I’ve heard you say that before but is it entirely how you feel? Doesn’t some of your laundry love leak into support of the individual?

I believe the club isn’t managing the cap right. I also think they need to be more aggressive in their recruitment and retention. But I was not happy the other day when Don was talking about Rapa’s contract and saying he was in no rush to re-sign him.

Rapa will be a thirty-year-old winger next year, which normally means he’d be excess. I’d argue he’s been absolutely top level for the last few years in everything you’d want from a winger and is worth re-signing on pure ability.

But also he’s played his absolute max for every single play in green. Some days Rapa was the only positive I could take out of a game.

So despite wanting more business-like decisions from the club - a la Pigman Rules - I’d be really disappointed if they let him go unless he was asking for ridiculous money (which I’m very confident he isn’t).

Don’t you feel a bit like that?

In the specifics of Raps right now? Sure. Because i think he's an elite player and if he was asking for a reasonable wage and we let him walk without replacing him, it would make me again question the direction of the club under this regime.
In the broader sense, honestly?
Nope. I love Jordy Raps, i love Nic Cotric... both really good, really fun players who i enjoy watching. I'll continue to enjoy watching them and love them with every fibre of my fanship being until such time as they are no longer contributors. At which point, they gotta go.
Now if they contribute to a special moment in the clubs history, a premiership... then they'll earn more reverence. I wouldnt piss on Ricky Stuart if he was on fire as a coach, but ill go to my grave believing he was the best halfback i've ever seen play the game.

But as it stands right now, if getting a quality half or coach meant losing Jordan Rapana or Nic Cotric and i thought that was a step forward towards a premiership... much as i appreciate those dudes, i'd do it without even blinking. I'd remember them fondly, when topics like come up and im forced to think of people i enjoyed in bad teams, like Lesley Vainikolo

I like those guys, i enjoy cheering for them, certainly id rather have them in the side than our deadbeat fullback (also they're better footballers), but ultimately i have come to terms with what my fandom is. Its laundry. It's the entity and it's the colours. I stump for the Canberra Raiders.

Fair call.

I just wonder about the point at which we tip over to being done with a guy. I cited Rapa because I think I’d err on the side of a season too many with him. But I wouldn’t with most other guys. I think Luke Bateman gives 100% and is better than he’s given credit for, for example, but I’d cut him in a heartbeat.

I suppose my position is league is different to, say, the NBA where players are purely resources. I love basketball but it’s hard to be passionate about the game because it is entirely laundry.

[Botman]

Yeah and to that point i think my increased interest in american sports, NFL and NBA primarily has accelerated this position. It is entirely laundry in that climate. As you say, players are resources. I liked Saric and Covington a lot... i like Jimmy Buckets more, particularly when he's hitting last second game winners

And every time i think of the NRL, i think of the Raiders running their team like they're the '94 Raiders, and the Roosters treating their team like it's a franchise, and it's players are resources. And im more and more convinced they're on the right side of this history.

[edwahu]

I wonder how we would go with an NBA style player market. I can't imagine it would be worse.

[BJ]

I wonder how we would go with an NBA style player market. I can't imagine it would be worse.

I certainly think the NRL could dabble in some adjustments to the salary cap and introduce junior protection from powerful clubs for those clubs who have performed poorly over many years and ultimately developed players for stronger teams.

[gerg]

If only we'd won we wouldn't have lost.

wow really?? great chat, the kind i would expect from some on here really.

i hope you all from the doom and gloom house had a nice Christmas

Go back and read what you wrote. If only we'd won those close games we would have been ok... I mean absolutely no offence to you at all but in sporting terms that is how losers ponder a season. Look back at close losses and contemplate what could have been. Every side in the comp looks at games they should have won .... the successful teams factor those losses into their schedule/mindset 'as the one that got away'... but still didn't impact their season. We look back at those losses as reasons we missed the finals - 4 out of 5 years now. There is always games where a few dud calls go against you, an opposition player does something freakish, injuries or it just wasn't meant to be. Our coach has a terrible habit of trying to sugar coat our losses in this way rather than addressing the real issues and it rubs off on the players.

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[edwahu]

I wonder how we would go with an NBA style player market. I can't imagine it would be worse.

I certainly think the NRL could dabble in some adjustments to the salary cap and introduce junior protection from powerful clubs for those clubs who have performed poorly over many years and ultimately developed players for stronger teams.

I think I'd prefer no junior protections but a external draft and restricted free agency. Seems impossible for the NRL though, the players are too dumb to give up been able to do what ever they want

[dubby]

Players I think are probably over paid:

Sia
Croker
Wighton
Leilua



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Interested to know what you think they’re on and what you think they’re worth, Dubs.

None of them worth a cent over $400k IMO.

Let's put it this way.

If every player in the NRL were off contract, how much demand would there be for any of them?

Sia is 30 odd, an absolutely wonderful person, but is probably past his best,
Croker is a point scoring machine, is a cleanskin at the judiciary, is impeccable off field but is he really marketable? And he has some knee issues that have surfaced
Wighton has his issues,
Leilua is dynamic but inconsistent with glaring deficiencies in his game.

My guess is Croker is getting the local junior dispensation of $200k (correct me if that amount is wrong), so he's probably being paid circa $600k

Sia? $600k
Wighton? $700k
Leilua? $550k

I'm probably way out though

I'd reckon our top paid would be:

Papa
Hodgson
Wighton
Croker
Sia


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[Botman]

The average player's salary, based on cap and roster numbers is (quick and dirty) 370k
So you're saying Sia, Croker, Wighton and Leilua are league average footballers if you say not a cent over 400k.

Interesting position
16 teams which is:

32 starting centres
16 starting fullbacks
and roughly 64 middles

would be interesting to list that out and see the 55 middles, and 16 centres better than our guys. I think Wighton would be pretty comfortably in the bottom half at fullback, but that's admittedly a stacked position.

[dubby]

Woops, my bad.

Honestly though, are any of them worth a lot?

Like the $600k i think they're on?

And frankly mate, we love Croker but he's not worth big money. He's basically Anthony Don or Kyle Feldt.

Jack would have to be near bottom rung fullbacks, yeah? Yet I bet he's on really good coin.

If I was CEO of the Broken Hill Bears, and we're coming in the NRL in 2020, and Jacky was offered to me, I'd pay him $450k, as a centre. Plus incentives for games played, rep etc etc.

Same with BJ.
Same with Croker.



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[dubby]

While $370k is average, there are players earning less than that. It is AVERAGE after all. And all of these aforementioned players are average.

Maybe I wasn't far off?

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[dubby]

Also, parra signed Blake Ferguson on a 3 year $1.5 million dollar deal.

That was a better offer than the roosters gave him.

I'm tired and I'm not sure what my point was.

Goodnight all. See you in 2019.

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[Botman]

While $370k is average, there are players earning less than that. It is AVERAGE after all. And all of these aforementioned players are average.

Maybe I wasn't far off?

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I dont really have strong thoughts on it, other than Wighton.
if i had to guess, i think i'd struggle to find 16 centres or 64 middles id take over our guys but id have to map it out to be sure. it was just an interesting proposition to think that our centres who are seen as a strength are just league average.

[Matt]

Wighton is most likely overpaid. He is paid on spine loading. I think he has the ability to be earning his pay, as shown in the 1st half of last yr. But needs to do it for a full yr, etc, etc.

Sia, i can see reason as to him being considered overpaid, BUT, every club has a Sia type old head middle. He also adds so much in intangibles on and off the field. Hard to quantify that.

Croker, captain, kicker, pts machine, holds multiple records at the club . In a position considered by may to be the one you cheap out on, i can see an argument. BUT, he isnt in the bottom 2/3rds of his position, let alone bottom half.

BJ, the guy was last yrs Dally M centre of the yr (got dudded in our big run yr and lucky last yr evens out IMO). Been a top 3 centre since joining the club. The only reason for a low pay packet us the theory on cheap centres.

Sorry Dubz, but i think you are off the mark here.

[edwahu]

Dubz is on the mark for all but Jack, purely because of fullback loading. Median for starting NRL players would be around 450k but factor in positional loading and 400k is fair for the other 3.

Croker is only a bit above middle of the pack amongst starting centers but would well into the bottom end of players as far as influence on results. Also we shouldnt be paying him more for being a long term 1 club player, we arguably should pay him less.

BJ is high maintenance and can't defend, but I could see the gamble to keep him since he can win games for you.

The problem is also not that they are overpaid, it's that none of them are underpaid. We bought high.

[Ruben Daley]

The problem is also not that they are overpaid, it's that none of them are underpaid. We bought high.

Yep. This is the point I tried to make earlier. Someone needs to be paid less than their on-field contribution deserves.

Baptiste is a good example. I loved that guy but he plays a position that you need to moneyball. It felt at the time that we’d struggle to replace him but what do you know he very first guy we try is as good or better and cost $250K less, if reports are true.

We need to be tougher sometimes and say, “This guy is probably worth more but we’re not paying it.”

They did it with Boyd and Paulo, so maybe the tide is turning.

[Botman]

Croker is only a bit above middle of the pack amongst starting centers but would well into the bottom end of players as far as influence on results. Also we shouldnt be paying him more for being a long term 1 club player, we arguably should pay him less.

I’m of the belief that we’re paying probably 5-10% more then we should on everyone rather than having 1-2 players being grossly overpaid so from that perspective I’m sure Croker is somewhat over paid but I have been for years and continue to be amazed at how little respect he has from his own fans for his abilities as a footballer

He’s an excellent player.

[edwahu]

Croker is only a bit above middle of the pack amongst starting centers but would well into the bottom end of players as far as influence on results. Also we shouldnt be paying him more for being a long term 1 club player, we arguably should pay him less.

I’m of the belief that we’re paying probably 5-10% more then we should on everyone rather than having 1-2 players being grossly overpaid so from that perspective I’m sure Croker is somewhat over paid but I have been for years and continue to be amazed at how little respect he has from his own fans for his abilities as a footballer

He’s an excellent player.

I don't disagree that he is a very good footballer, and there is nothing disrespectful about what I said, although I would admit looking at the list he is probably around 8-10th amongst centers, so I was a bit harsh there.

It's just his position and game mean he is extremely dependant on the rest of the side performing well before he can make consistently major contributions to results. 400k is fair value when you take that into account, and would probably still have him well in the top 10 for centers as far as contracts go, especially for ones who can't also play fullback.

[Botman]

Croker is only a bit above middle of the pack amongst starting centers but would well into the bottom end of players as far as influence on results. Also we shouldnt be paying him more for being a long term 1 club player, we arguably should pay him less.

I’m of the belief that we’re paying probably 5-10% more then we should on everyone rather than having 1-2 players being grossly overpaid so from that perspective I’m sure Croker is somewhat over paid but I have been for years and continue to be amazed at how little respect he has from his own fans for his abilities as a footballer

He’s an excellent player.

I don't disagree that he is a very good footballer, and there is nothing disrespectful about what I said, although I would admit looking at the list he is probably around 8-10th amongst centers, so I was a bit harsh there.

I agree with your revised comment. I think i'd struggle to name 12 better centres than him. He's not quite elite, which is what we're probably paying him to be, but he'd start at every club bar maybe the Mitchell-Manu roosters.

[dubby]

BJ has played career best attacking footy with us. He's as good as he'll ever be in attack.

His defense and ill conduct are what restricts him from playing rep.

I stand by my opinions. Ed and Matt raise good points, and it's a good discussion.

I'd like to take a look at the other 15 teams centers, for arguments sake.

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