Is Croker the right captain for the team

[simo]

BEAR
"Pop over to thegh.com.au there’s always discussion on club forums about these things, it’s a useful tool to use. Just don’t login and post supercoach questions, they don’t seem to like that!."
SIMO
"Miserable bunch of old men yelling at clouds. Wouldnt rely on them too much for info."

Simo where not all old, "it's a small world after all".

Yes you are so

[simo]

Simo’s post is the most logically framed argument I’ve seen here on the switching captains front.

However I’m still of the opinion it’s like cleaning your air filter while you have a flat battery (if this analogy doesn’t make sense it’s because I don’t know **** about cars ). I don’t see any point in ruffling feathers and upsetting the team dynamic at the moment for possibly some incremental benefit. All the while the car is going nowhere anyway because there’s a fundamental problem you haven’t addressed in arguably 4 years (lost a lot of close games in 2015 and the start of 2016 as I recall, in addition to the shambles of the last two years)

This raiders car is a run down piece of junk and while it really needs a new battery, we dont have one. It could use an air filter change and it just so happens we have one available and time to pop it on. It wont be the thing that gets the car running again, but it will run smoother once it is

[Roger Kenworthy]

Simo’s post is the most logically framed argument I’ve seen here on the switching captains front.

However I’m still of the opinion it’s like cleaning your air filter while you have a flat battery (if this analogy doesn’t make sense it’s because I don’t know **** about cars ). I don’t see any point in ruffling feathers and upsetting the team dynamic at the moment for possibly some incremental benefit. All the while the car is going nowhere anyway because there’s a fundamental problem you haven’t addressed in arguably 4 years (lost a lot of close games in 2015 and the start of 2016 as I recall, in addition to the shambles of the last two years)

Yes - you wouldn't want to ruffle the feathers of such a high performing side.

[gangrenous]

I don’t think the Raiders car is a run down piece of junk. They really aren’t far off a winning team...

[raiderskater]

I think a better analogy is that the car is running rough. It needs a new set of sparkplugs and the injectors to be cleaned out, and a new oil filter wouldn't hurt either, but the already-clean air filter does not need replacing.

[yeh raiders]

Can all agree, the car is in serious need of a new driver.

[Billy Walker]

I think a better analogy is that the car is running rough. It needs a new set of sparkplugs and the injectors to be cleaned out, and a new oil filter wouldn't hurt either, but the already-clean air filter does not need replacing.

If we are really looking for car analogies for captain Croker I'd suggest his defence is like a failing cylinder as he often misses! As a skipper his arms flap more than a busted fan belt, and in attack he must have broken indicators because he rarely passes!

[RedRaider]

Where were the calls from the Captain in those matches where a field goal was the option. The plays should have been to work to a position where a field goal was possible. That takes on field leadership and whether it is accepted or not, the bloke with the 'c' beside his name has the main responsibility for on field leadership.

Red, do you want to take a moment to rethink this one?
I think you should take a moment to rethink this one.

No

[RedRaider]

Simo’s post is the most logically framed argument I’ve seen here on the switching captains front.

However I’m still of the opinion it’s like cleaning your air filter while you have a flat battery (if this analogy doesn’t make sense it’s because I don’t know **** about cars ). I don’t see any point in ruffling feathers and upsetting the team dynamic at the moment for possibly some incremental benefit. All the while the car is going nowhere anyway because there’s a fundamental problem you haven’t addressed in arguably 4 years (lost a lot of close games in 2015 and the start of 2016 as I recall, in addition to the shambles of the last two years)

I just thought I would pass on an answer to your technical analogy. "Should you leave a dirty air filter in your vehicle long enough, it is possible to ruin your plugs. Damaged spark plugs could affect not only your vehicle's performance, but also the ability to start your car." Trouble starting the car can lead to a .... you know the answer .... a flat battery.

[Archer]

- middle of park closer to refs ear
- hodgo is far more well known to nrl fans than croker, often referred to as our captain by other teams fans anyway

It sets the tone that this is josh hodgsons team.

So rather than ignore everything you wrote :p I'll just snip it a bit because if I'm honest the bold was the only reason I thought had some merit and the second one I chuckled at (not sure opposition fans have much bearing on who should be our captain).

I personally don't think Croker does a bad job with the refs because I'm of the opinion they'll likely treat anyone in our current team the same. However if you think otherwise and that Hodgo would get us my favourable calls I can understand wanting that, I just don't see it.

For the last bit I guess I'm just not understanding it, do you mean it tells the rest of our team to listen to him? I'd sorta hope they do already or there are bigger issues.

[gangrenous]

Simo’s post is the most logically framed argument I’ve seen here on the switching captains front.

However I’m still of the opinion it’s like cleaning your air filter while you have a flat battery (if this analogy doesn’t make sense it’s because I don’t know **** about cars ). I don’t see any point in ruffling feathers and upsetting the team dynamic at the moment for possibly some incremental benefit. All the while the car is going nowhere anyway because there’s a fundamental problem you haven’t addressed in arguably 4 years (lost a lot of close games in 2015 and the start of 2016 as I recall, in addition to the shambles of the last two years)

I just thought I would pass on an answer to your technical analogy. "Should you leave a dirty air filter in your vehicle long enough, it is possible to ruin your plugs. Damaged spark plugs could affect not only your vehicle's performance, but also the ability to start your car." Trouble starting the car can lead to a .... you know the answer .... a flat battery.

love it

[Botman]

Where were the calls from the Captain in those matches where a field goal was the option. The plays should have been to work to a position where a field goal was possible. That takes on field leadership and whether it is accepted or not, the bloke with the 'c' beside his name has the main responsibility for on field leadership.

Red, do you want to take a moment to rethink this one?
I think you should take a moment to rethink this one.

No

Ok.
Captains come in all kinds positions.
When the Roosters need to set up for a FG, who do you think takes control of that? Boyd Cordner or Cooper Cronk?
Do you think Isiah Yeo is taking charge of the how to position for a FG, or you think it's probably Cleary and/or Maloney?
Does RTS control the set for FG set ups for the Warriors, or do you think they might leave that up to Shaun Johnson?
Does Josh Jackson steer the ship on FG sets, or is it more likely one of their **** halves? Ryan James for the Titans, or Ash Taylor? Darius Boyd or Anthony Milford?

Perhaps the ONLY thing i thought the entire GH could agree on is that the responsibility for FG attempts in terms of field positioning falls on the hooker and FG kicker, regardless of who the captain is.
The hooker needs to know where the half is going to take the shot from and on what tackle, and it's up to those to ensure the team is where they need to be to get a good look. This aspect of the game is totally on the #9 and which ever player is taking the shot (in some cases that's been people like Luke Burt or Jordan Kahu).

The Raiders inability to close out games with FGs (which i think most agree is due to a combination of poor positioning and just straight up not executing the kick) is entirely on the halves and hooker. Not the captain.

Now if Croker was our primary kicker, and these issues were present by all means that's on him. But at present our primary FG is Sezer/Austin in probably a 60/40 split (the fact we dont have a clear #1 option tells you how badly this has gone for us), those are the men responsible for our poor FG positioning.

[Pete Cash]

The field goals is probably a coaching issue if anything. Sezer got the yips last year and its a man managers job to fix that. Its also a relatively small issue imo because we realistically wouldnt even be needing field goals if we werent self destructing every second half. Again ultimately a coaching issue.

Edit

If you think about it the fact the entire team is self destructing makes it harder for a halfback over coming a confidence issue on a technical issue. Field goals arent a skill practiced in competition regularly. Obviously at training he is just smashing them left right and centre but its different in game. Sezer is getting caught up in the collective meltdown. He has to be.

That is why shooting one just before half time if we are up by some multiple of 6 might not be the worst idea. Hell just do it anyway to get some confidence

[RedRaider]

Where were the calls from the Captain in those matches where a field goal was the option. The plays should have been to work to a position where a field goal was possible. That takes on field leadership and whether it is accepted or not, the bloke with the 'c' beside his name has the main responsibility for on field leadership.

Red, do you want to take a moment to rethink this one?
I think you should take a moment to rethink this one.

No

Ok.
Captains come in all kinds positions.
When the Roosters need to set up for a FG, who do you think takes control of that? Boyd Cordner or Cooper Cronk?
Do you think Isiah Yeo is taking charge of the how to position for a FG, or you think it's probably Cleary and/or Maloney?
Does RTS control the set for FG set ups for the Warriors, or do you think they might leave that up to Shaun Johnson?
Does Josh Jackson steer the ship on FG sets, or is it more likely one of their **** halves? Ryan James for the Titans, or Ash Taylor? Darius Boyd or Anthony Milford?

Perhaps the ONLY thing i thought the entire GH could agree on is that the responsibility for FG attempts in terms of field positioning falls on the hooker and FG kicker, regardless of who the captain is.
The hooker needs to know where the half is going to take the shot from and on what tackle, and it's up to those to ensure the team is where they need to be to get a good look. This aspect of the game is totally on the #9 and which ever player is taking the shot (in some cases that's been people like Luke Burt or Jordan Kahu).

The Raiders inability to close out games with FGs (which i think most agree is due to a combination of poor positioning and just straight up not executing the kick) is entirely on the halves and hooker. Not the captain.

Now if Croker was our primary kicker, and these issues were present by all means that's on him. But at present our primary FG is Sezer/Austin in probably a 60/40 split (the fact we dont have a clear #1 option tells you how badly this has gone for us), those are the men responsible for our poor FG positioning.

Even back in my day when footballs were made of leather we had set plays. I put taking a shot at field goal into the category of set plays. The Captain would call the code word for the play and even poorly performed players like myself knew what he wanted and moved into the rehearsed positioning needed to set up for what the Captain required. It's really not that hard. But it begins with the Captain making a decision.

[RTW]

In the team that I coach my lock is the captain. I don’t expect him to call a set play and nor does he. That is left up to the halves, hooker or FB. If we wanted to get to a certain point I would expect him to get a carry that gets us to it but that is after a spine play has called that set play.

[Botman]

Correct, the halves and hooker are directing the play, the others job is simply to look and listen to where his halves are pointing them

Where we've sometimes had issues is when guys have got the ball and taken it much wider than we wanted (Beej and Papalii have both notable occasions where they got the ball, clearly being told to go straight, but they ended up breaking a tackle and bouncing it well wide and leaving the halves with a much harder angle to kick at), or more often, just mismanagement from the halves (too close to the try line, positioned too far from the hooker, positioned on a bad angle etc) and just not executing (good position, clean pass, good angle, fluff the kick)

Putting that on a captain, any captain, who isn't in those spine positions is absurd.

[Roger Kenworthy]

So Nick - given Captaincy is largely meaningless would you be happy for the Raiders to rotate it around the squad like with an under 10s team?

[RedRaider]

I trust your side is chalking up some good wins RTW. Good on you for your commitment to the game and the life time memories you are providing to your players.

In my day the Captain was the boss when it came to set plays. There was no restriction on what the halves could do in general play but when a set play call came from the Captain everyone fell into line. Now the execution of the plays was quite another matter. Sometimes they worked and sometimes they didn't. Sometimes with execution errors it was our fault and other times the opposition were just too good.

Pigman has just put up a different reason as to why Croker should not be Captain. No one listens to him as the spine players run the side. If that position is agreed then the 'c' should reside with the 1, 6, 7 or 9. I don't think there would be a lot of objection if Hodgo got the nod.

Hodgo is already providing the type of plain speaking I for one look for in a Captain.

"It was obvious for everybody to see that we had some issues on the right edge on the weekend when the Broncos targeted us there," Hodgson said.

"Sammy's just a really composed head. He's very talkative and I think that'll really help our defensive systems. He's been around a while, Sammy, and he knows the score.

"He's got to come in and do his job, nothing too flash, just get us around the park, get us talking and on that right edge making sure we're firming up and everyone's doing their own job."

[RTW]

Yeah fair point on if a captain said it then it should be done and if I think about it if my captain called for it to be done then it would be done.

I think the reality of this debate is people are coming at it from all different angles.

Whenever I have commented I have always been coming from the point that Croker as captain is the least of our problems and changing that would IMO have a greater chance of a negative effect then a positive.

No doubt if another coach came in he would consider a change but Stuart isn’t going to.

[Botman]

So Nick - given Captaincy is largely meaningless would you be happy for the Raiders to rotate it around the squad like with an under 10s team?

If Croker left or retired today, and thecoach wanted to handle it that way i wouldnt give a single **** if thats what they did. I would suggest some of the top 17 arent capable of handling the media side of that responsibility, which is the main component of it, so perhaps bring it down to a tight 7 or so... like i dont think Beej needs a crack at sitting at presser and fielding "why it all went wrong" questions from Gavel and co haha, Smelliot would be a tough interview with his dirty english too. But otherwise sure, go for it. Some clubs have gone down a similar route naming anywhere between 2 and 5 co-captains.

In response to the "if it doesnt matter why so opposed to change" line... well, it doesnt matter functionally to the team. It's not going to increase or decrease wins by changing captain. But Croker is a very popular member of the team and it is still considered an 'honour' to captain of your footy team and i think sacking him for no real reason could cause some issues in the squad's harmony. Now maybe it wont, maybe everyone's on board with Hodgo but that's not really a risk worth taking for no real meaningful gain.

Pigman has just put up a different reason as to why Croker should not be Captain. No one listens to him as the spine players run the side.

That's actually not even in the realm of what was said at all, Red. Like literally not close.
Might want to re-read what i said.

[woppadingo]

I think a better analogy is that the car is running rough. It needs a new set of sparkplugs and the injectors to be cleaned out, and a new oil filter wouldn't hurt either, but the already-clean air filter does not need replacing.

Its an ACTION bus.
You dont get to choose the driver
You dont get to choose the other passengers.
You dont get to set the speed or the direction.
You dont choose the route or the stops.

You only get to choose when to get on and when to get off.

[Archer]

Some people must really rate Cordner. Captain of the blues team who came back from a deficit and held there composure with a man down.
I personally thought it was guys like Maloney who were responsible for that aspect, but each to their own.

[Archer]

I think a better analogy is that the car is running rough. It needs a new set of sparkplugs and the injectors to be cleaned out, and a new oil filter wouldn't hurt either, but the already-clean air filter does not need replacing.

Its an ACTION bus.
You dont get to choose the driver
You dont get to choose the other passengers.
You dont get to set the speed or the direction.
You dont choose the route or the stops.

You only get to choose when to get on and when to get off.

Unless you intend to jump off at 30mph there is no off, it's like speed

[reptar]

I think a better analogy is that the car is running rough. It needs a new set of sparkplugs and the injectors to be cleaned out, and a new oil filter wouldn't hurt either, but the already-clean air filter does not need replacing.

Its an ACTION bus.
You dont get to choose the driver
You dont get to choose the other passengers.
You dont get to set the speed or the direction.
You dont choose the route or the stops.

You only get to choose when to get on and when to get off.

Unless you intend to jump off at 30mph there is no off, it's like speed

The bus that couldn't slow down?

[Archer]

Yep, but don't confuse the metaphor, it's not that we have some unstoppable momentum taking us into the finals, it's that there is a cliff ahead and it doesn't look like we even want to miss it

[Northern Raider]

If you want an analogy. Changing captains would be like re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

[Botman]

If you want an analogy. Changing captains would be like re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

Perfect.

[greeneyed]

Red... times have changed since the time when captains decided on field goal calls. This is the job of play makers in modern rugby league. Captains may or may not be play makers. I suspect you’d prefer the captain to be a play maker... that’s a fair enough view. But it isn’t required in modern rugby league either.

[luke]

Ah geez really we’re still talking about this?

[Northern Raider]

Ah geez really we’re still talking about this?

This and many others will continue to be a topic on here while the Raiders are losing. Everybody will over analyse and look for reasons why the results are not what we would like.

The reality of the situation is little more straight forward. Our coach is ****.

[LP Raider]

BEAR
"Pop over to thegh.com.au there’s always discussion on club forums about these things, it’s a useful tool to use. Just don’t login and post supercoach questions, they don’t seem to like that!."
SIMO
"Miserable bunch of old men yelling at clouds. Wouldnt rely on them too much for info."

Simo where not all old, "it's a small world after all".

Yes you are so

I'll see you over at SC Talk some time punk.

[bleedgreen99]

I think croker is a great captain and if it stays that way I’m 100% fine with that. BUT. If hodgo were made captain I’m of the opinion we would be treated more favourably by the refs... these days the refs egos are just as big as the players, so the higher your standing in the game the more respect the refs will give you. That cannot be disputed. Hodgo will soon be the best hooker in the game (daylight second) and pushing for best player, meaning the refs would undoubtedly show him more respect equaling more favourable calls. How much more favourable is hard to gauge but if he’s to be the next cam smith think the difference between how the refs treat smith > croker. Even if the difference is only 1 crucial penalty every few games that would have us in the 8 right now. This all a bit subjective, hodgo as captain doesn’t guarantee extra wins, but I think it does give us a better chance against what is sometimes our toughest opponent

[sprintman]

Hodgo is captain in everything bar name. Get it done

[RTW]

If you ask a group of random supporters who they think is the best hooker in the game besides Smith family feud style. I don’t think Hodgson would be in the top couple of answers. Not because he isn’t a great player but people don’t actually watch that much of the Raiders and he doesn’t play Origin.

When I talk to my mates they know he is a good player but they don’t have an idea of how good he is.

[Northern Raider]

I don't think we were that well treated by the refs last time Hodgo was captain.

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