Nick and Nick's rant page

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Re: Nick and Nick's rant page

Post by dubby » May 7, 2018, 9:00 pm

So, it's still my fault??
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Re: Nick and Nick's rant page

Post by greeneyed » May 7, 2018, 9:05 pm

I didn’t acquiesce. I did the right thing in response to a complaint. I’d do the same thing tomorrow given the nature of the complaint. Nick, your rights can’t transgress on others. Dragging family members into debates really isn’t necessary and if someone complains about that they’re entirely within their rights. The moderators try to do their absolute best for the forum community... and it’d be great if we could a bit nicer to each other... rather than bring out the invective.


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Re: Nick and Nick's rant page

Post by PigRickman » May 7, 2018, 9:15 pm

dubby wrote:
May 7, 2018, 9:00 pm
So, it's still my fault??
Always.
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Re: Nick and Nick's rant page

Post by PigRickman » May 7, 2018, 9:16 pm

greeneyed wrote:
May 7, 2018, 9:05 pm
I didn’t acquiesce. I did the right thing in response to a complaint. I’d do the same thing tomorrow given the nature of the complaint. Nick, your rights can’t transgress on others. Dragging family members into debates really isn’t necessary and if someone complains about that they’re entirely within their rights. The moderators try to do their absolute best for the forum community... and it’d be great if we could a bit nicer to each other... rather than bring out the invective.


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Invective... again?
Did TR forget to change the Word Of The Day calendar again? Christ, change the channel Marge
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Re: Nick and Nick's rant page

Post by Dr Zaius » May 7, 2018, 9:33 pm

Pigman wrote:FWIW - i also have never had an issue with gerg before or since. I stand by my claim that his victim shame was absolute disgusting and rightly called him out on it. I challenged his disgusting posting by framing the issue in a way that challenged him.
Moderators reviewed the posts at the time, universally cleared the posts. One saying it was a fair and valid point.

Greg complained to GE, as is his right. GE acquiesced to the frivolous complaint, which did not cross forum guidelines, the spare the feelings of a poster. As for making it personal, that's the entire point, if we men dont make this kind of attitude and behaviour personal, if we dont think about it in those terms, the situation will not improve. The attitudes continue. They MUST be challenged. At every turn.

It is incumbent on us as men to think about these matters on a personal level because that's the only way that drives us to change our behaviour. It's easy to ignore the stats by saying "well, that sucks but its not by problem", it's entirely different to ignore it and continue promoting victim shaming attitudes when it's pointed out, very directly, that guess what? It IS your problem. And will likely be your problem given the statistical probability. It's up to us, as fathers to raise young men who dont hold the views expressed in that thread, it's on us fathers to raise daughters who know their worth, their value and know that if something terrible happens to them, that they can tell their story and know they will be protected, believed and treated seriously, not blamed or have their character questioned by strangers who don't know them at all.

The fact this girl is not a minor doesnt mean she's game to be spoken about by strangers however we please without fear of being challenged.

If you DONT take that personally, if that's not on your mind as a father, and you resent being asked to think about this issue in that way, then your feelings DESERVE to be hurt. It was not a deliberate attempt to get under Greg's skin, it was a deliberate attempt to get a man with outdated attitudes to think about how he might feel if some one on the internet spoke of his girls the way he was speaking of this girl, who also has a father, a father who probably would be furious at the idea of some stranger accusing his daughter of essentially signing up for what is alleged to have happened to her. The idea of something happening to my little girl and having a pack of **** on an internet forum questioning her is infuriating to me. Everything i do in this realm of life is in context of promoting attitudes and treating accusers in the same way i'd like my daughter treated.

That's the only way we fathers should do it.

Now to the core issue, the issue that had me leave the forum...

This level of moderation to spare the feelings of some has routinely happened for many years now and i've had this argument many times privately with the moderators. As i've outlined in this thread, my protest had little to do with this SPECIFIC case and more to do with the pattern of moderation, of which this was a prime example, which was and is completely contradictory to the foundations and values this place was start on.

Greg had a right to complain, everyone has that right. I still have no issues with him. He's got the right to feel what ever way he wants to about this. And the moderation team has the right to tell him to harden the **** up and tell him if he's not mature enough to deal with the blow back, perhaps slut shaming and victim blaming strangers on the internet is not the place for you to engage.

As for my periodically return... you can thank my wife for that, she was sick of me ranting about our idiot coach to her and begged me to go back to posting so she didnt have to listen to it any longer.

Also perfect that the issue here completely flies over the head of Dubby. You couldnt script it better.
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Re: Nick and Nick's rant page

Post by dubby » May 8, 2018, 8:00 am

Pigman wrote:
May 7, 2018, 9:15 pm
dubby wrote:
May 7, 2018, 9:00 pm
So, it's still my fault??
Always.
:cry:
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Re: Nick and Nick's rant page

Post by gergreg » May 8, 2018, 9:34 am

Pigman wrote:
May 7, 2018, 8:50 pm
Snip
I'm not getting drawn into this debate again because in the original thread and again in this one you are completely misrepresenting my beliefs and misconstruing what i have written.
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Re: Nick and Nick's rant page

Post by The Rickman » May 8, 2018, 10:02 am

You did say that a lot of the time women make this sort of stuff up, and that’s actually been proven to be incredibly incorrect.

Women don’t generally make stuff like this up, and whenever I’ve been in this debate with friends I always ask any ladies present if they’d ever make this stuff up and their response is always a very forceful “no way!”

The fact that men’s first reaction to stories like this is often “yeah, but she’s probably making it up” when that’s been proven to hardly ever happen is a big reason why we still have a culture of violence towards women
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Nick and Nick's rant page

Post by gangrenous » May 8, 2018, 10:43 am

The Nickman wrote: Women don’t make stuff like this up, and whenever I’ve been in this debate with friends I always ask any ladies present if they’d ever make this stuff up and their response is always a very forceful “no way!”
Woah pump the brakes.

Sure the overwhelming stats would be that the vast majority of these stories are not made up. But a blanket “Women don’t make stuff like this up” is clearly not accurate either.

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Re: Nick and Nick's rant page

Post by The Rickman » May 8, 2018, 10:53 am

gangrenous wrote:
May 8, 2018, 10:43 am
The Nickman wrote: Women don’t make stuff like this up, and whenever I’ve been in this debate with friends I always ask any ladies present if they’d ever make this stuff up and their response is always a very forceful “no way!”
Woah pump the brakes.

Sure the overwhelming stats would be that the vast majority of these stories are not made up. But a blanket “Women don’t make stuff like this up” is clearly not accurate either.
THAT's the point of my post you choose to call me on??

Wow. Ladies and gentlemen, my point exactly.
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Nick and Nick's rant page

Post by gangrenous » May 8, 2018, 10:57 am

That’s ridiculous. The rest of the stuff you said was right.

I commented on the blatant factual inaccuracy.

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Re: Nick and Nick's rant page

Post by The Rickman » May 8, 2018, 11:00 am

So rather than agree with me and say "that's spot on", you chose to pick at the one sentence (which only needed the words "hardly ever" included) that's "factual inaccuracy"?

Like I said, this is why we have this issue.
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Re: Nick and Nick's rant page

Post by gangrenous » May 8, 2018, 11:04 am

Fair point. I didn’t make it clear that I agree with and support the rest of your argument. It’s something that annoys me when others do it, and was hypocritical on my part. Apologies on that front.

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Re: Nick and Nick's rant page

Post by T_R » May 8, 2018, 11:06 am

To be fair, even a passing interest in court cases in this area will show that women DO make this stuff up, and it happens all the time. It's generally not a public incident, though - most cases are in the context of domestic break ups and custody battles.
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Son, we live in a world that has forums, and those forums have to be guarded by Mods. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Nickman? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Lucy, and you curse GE. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know -- that GE’s moderation, while tragic, probably saved lives; and my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, keeps threads on track and under the appropriately sized, highlighted green headings.
You want moderation because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that forum -- you need me on that forum. We use words like "stay on topic," "use the appropriate forum," "please delete." We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very moderation that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather that you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you get a green handle and edit a post. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think about moderation.

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Re: Nick and Nick's rant page

Post by gergreg » May 8, 2018, 11:09 am

And Nickman that is exactly how the discussion originally went. Despite the clear caveats I placed around my comments, select comments were extracted from my complete comments thereby taking things completely out of context. I think Gangers has shown here how easy and common it is to do.
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Re: Nick and Nick's rant page

Post by The Rickman » May 8, 2018, 11:31 am

T_R wrote:
May 8, 2018, 11:06 am
To be fair, even a passing interest in court cases in this area will show that women DO make this stuff up, and it happens all the time. It's generally not a public incident, though - most cases are in the context of domestic break ups and custody battles.
Is that true though? I heard statistics such as women make this stuff up about 4% of the time, yet the defendent is found to be guilty only about 5%. That's a massive swing if true, and quite frankly, completely ****!

Are you sure about your "all the time" comment? How much is all the time?
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Re: Nick and Nick's rant page

Post by T_R » May 8, 2018, 11:49 am

I don't have stats, but I would say in the context of custody disputes etc it is fair to say it occurs regularly.

Anyway, I'm not really interested in joining the debate - my sympathies are strongly with your argument. I just think you overcooked it here at the end.
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Son, we live in a world that has forums, and those forums have to be guarded by Mods. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Nickman? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Lucy, and you curse GE. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know -- that GE’s moderation, while tragic, probably saved lives; and my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, keeps threads on track and under the appropriately sized, highlighted green headings.
You want moderation because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that forum -- you need me on that forum. We use words like "stay on topic," "use the appropriate forum," "please delete." We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very moderation that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather that you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you get a green handle and edit a post. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think about moderation.

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Re: Nick and Nick's rant page

Post by dubby » May 8, 2018, 11:58 am

Food goes in here
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Re: Nick and Nick's rant page

Post by The Rickman » May 8, 2018, 11:59 am

Great, so everyone to a man agrees with my point but seem intent on still backhandedly arguing irrelevant subtleties of my posts??

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Re: Nick and Nick's rant page

Post by T_R » May 8, 2018, 12:04 pm

Do you think that saying that these things are never made up is a 'irrelevant subtlety'??????

You've come straight out and said that any man accused of these crimes is, prima facie, guilty.

Quite frankly, that's precisely the kind of unhelpful absurdity that SHOULD be called out.
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Son, we live in a world that has forums, and those forums have to be guarded by Mods. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Nickman? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Lucy, and you curse GE. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know -- that GE’s moderation, while tragic, probably saved lives; and my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, keeps threads on track and under the appropriately sized, highlighted green headings.
You want moderation because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that forum -- you need me on that forum. We use words like "stay on topic," "use the appropriate forum," "please delete." We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very moderation that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather that you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you get a green handle and edit a post. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think about moderation.

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Re: Nick and Nick's rant page

Post by The Rickman » May 8, 2018, 12:28 pm

T_R wrote:
May 8, 2018, 12:04 pm
Do you think that saying that these things are never made up is a 'irrelevant subtlety'??????

You've come straight out and said that any man accused of these crimes is, prima facie, guilty.

Quite frankly, that's precisely the kind of unhelpful absurdity that SHOULD be called out.
In that same post I say "hardly ever happens", it's pretty obvious what my point was.

EDIT: Anyway, I've now edited my original post to include the word "generally", seeing as this seems to be the only thing you guys are capable of focussing on, rather than the actual issue at hand.
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Re: Nick and Nick's rant page

Post by T_R » May 8, 2018, 12:54 pm

So you concede that you made an absurd misstatement, but can't help but take a snide shot on the way out.

Classy.
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Son, we live in a world that has forums, and those forums have to be guarded by Mods. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Nickman? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Lucy, and you curse GE. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know -- that GE’s moderation, while tragic, probably saved lives; and my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, keeps threads on track and under the appropriately sized, highlighted green headings.
You want moderation because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that forum -- you need me on that forum. We use words like "stay on topic," "use the appropriate forum," "please delete." We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very moderation that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather that you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you get a green handle and edit a post. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think about moderation.

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Nick and Nick's rant page

Post by The Rickman » May 8, 2018, 1:16 pm

My point still stands. The fact you guys are all arguing it on a technicality rather than the issue itself is the big problem here.

The conversation in this country needs to change. And while blokes like you three are leading with “maybe she’s making it up” or arguing technicalities rather than addressing the actual issue, which is male violence towards women in our society, then it never will
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Nick and Nick's rant page

Post by gangrenous » May 8, 2018, 1:28 pm

It’s not a technicality when you say black and white “This never happens”.

It’s clearly wrong, and it’s bad debating because everyone disregards the rest of your post on the basis of “that’s complete nonsense at face value, how much value do I put on his other arguments?”.

You instantly lose anyone you’re trying to convince.

To try and flip that back to us leading with “maybe she’s making it up” or calling it a technicality is absurd and offensive.

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Re: Nick and Nick's rant page

Post by T_R » May 8, 2018, 1:30 pm

The Nickman wrote:
May 8, 2018, 1:16 pm
My point still stands. The fact you guys are all arguing it on a technicality rather than the issue itself is the big problem here.

The conversation in this country needs to change. And while blokes like you three are leading with “maybe she’s making it up” or arguing technicalities rather than addressing the actual issue, which is male violence towards women in our society, then it never will
1. I've never 'lead with' or even suggested 'she's making it all up', and you really piss me off saying something like that. What an utterly ridiculous comment. Seriously, **** you, Nick. I don't believe anything like that and you should be ashamed to put words like that in my mouth.

2. When you frame an argument in terms as you did, 'women never make these things up', you oversimplify the discussion to the point of absurdity. If you're not capable of maintaining what is a laudable position in light of even the slightest shade of nuance, you probably shouldn't be in the conversation.

The issue of false claims is substantial enough that it was a significant factor in changes to divorce laws in many states of America, for example, where legislators moved to 'no fault' findings to disincentivise litigants - predominately women in this case - from making false statements regarding child or spousal abuse. It was a huge issue and remains so in many places.

I'm in 100% agreement with you on the core issue here. As is often the case though, the essential correctness of your position was not enough and you decided to take it to absurdity to make a point. You got called out on it. Live with it, old boy, and move on.
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Son, we live in a world that has forums, and those forums have to be guarded by Mods. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Nickman? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Lucy, and you curse GE. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know -- that GE’s moderation, while tragic, probably saved lives; and my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, keeps threads on track and under the appropriately sized, highlighted green headings.
You want moderation because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that forum -- you need me on that forum. We use words like "stay on topic," "use the appropriate forum," "please delete." We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very moderation that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather that you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you get a green handle and edit a post. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think about moderation.

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Re: Nick and Nick's rant page

Post by The Rickman » May 8, 2018, 1:33 pm

T_R wrote:
The Nickman wrote:
May 8, 2018, 1:16 pm
My point still stands. The fact you guys are all arguing it on a technicality rather than the issue itself is the big problem here.

The conversation in this country needs to change. And while blokes like you three are leading with “maybe she’s making it up” or arguing technicalities rather than addressing the actual issue, which is male violence towards women in our society, then it never will
1. I've never 'lead with' or even suggested 'she's making it all up', and you really piss me off saying something like that. What an utterly ridiculous comment. Seriously, **** you, Nick. I don't believe anything like that and you should be ashamed to put words like that in my mouth.

2. When you frame an argument in terms as you did, 'women never make these things up', you oversimplify the discussion to the point of absurdity. If you're not capable of maintaining what is a laudable position in light of even the slightest shade of nuance, you probably shouldn't be in the conversation.

The issue of false claims is substantial enough that it was a significant factor in changes to divorce laws in many states of America, for example, where legislators moved to 'no fault' findings to disincentivise litigants - predominately women in this case - from making false statements regarding child or spousal abuse. It was a huge issue and remains so in many places.

I'm in 100% agreement with you on the core issue here. As is often the case though, the essential correctness of your position was not enough and you decided to take it to absurdity to make a point. You got called out on it. Live with it, old boy, and move on.
Just in accordance with your Point Number 1, there was a pretty big OR in my statement. To think I was referring to the first part of the or in reference to you specifically when I mentioned three blokes is a pretty big oversight, mate
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Re: Nick and Nick's rant page

Post by T_R » May 8, 2018, 1:36 pm

The Nickman wrote:
May 8, 2018, 1:33 pm
Just in accordance with your Point Number 1, there was a pretty big OR in my statement. To think I was referring to the first part of the or in reference to you specifically when I mentioned three blokes is a pretty big oversight, mate
My bad. I understood from your posts that you didn't deal in minor points or quibble. :roll:

Honestly, you're all over the place today.

'Or' or not, it was a crappy thing to say and was completely out of order.
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Son, we live in a world that has forums, and those forums have to be guarded by Mods. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Nickman? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Lucy, and you curse GE. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know -- that GE’s moderation, while tragic, probably saved lives; and my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, keeps threads on track and under the appropriately sized, highlighted green headings.
You want moderation because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that forum -- you need me on that forum. We use words like "stay on topic," "use the appropriate forum," "please delete." We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very moderation that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather that you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you get a green handle and edit a post. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think about moderation.

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Re: Nick and Nick's rant page

Post by The Rickman » May 8, 2018, 1:36 pm

T_R wrote:
The Nickman wrote:
May 8, 2018, 1:33 pm
Just in accordance with your Point Number 1, there was a pretty big OR in my statement. To think I was referring to the first part of the or in reference to you specifically when I mentioned three blokes is a pretty big oversight, mate
My bad. I understood from your posts that you didn't deal in minor points or quibble. :roll:

Honestly, you're all over the place today.
Frankly, that’s all I’m going to focus my argument on now, it doesn’t matter if I agree with the rest of your post

You’re ridiculous for assuming that
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Re: Nick and Nick's rant page

Post by T_R » May 8, 2018, 1:38 pm

Is it so hard just to say 'Yeah, that was a bridge too far. My bad'?
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Son, we live in a world that has forums, and those forums have to be guarded by Mods. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Nickman? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Lucy, and you curse GE. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know -- that GE’s moderation, while tragic, probably saved lives; and my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, keeps threads on track and under the appropriately sized, highlighted green headings.
You want moderation because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that forum -- you need me on that forum. We use words like "stay on topic," "use the appropriate forum," "please delete." We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very moderation that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather that you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you get a green handle and edit a post. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think about moderation.

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Re: Nick and Nick's rant page

Post by The Rickman » May 8, 2018, 1:40 pm

Sorry TR, but your whole argument is invalid now

I don’t make the rules, I just strictly enforce them
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Re: Nick and Nick's rant page

Post by T_R » May 8, 2018, 1:41 pm

It clearly means more to you to be right here than it does to me, so I'll leave you to it.
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Son, we live in a world that has forums, and those forums have to be guarded by Mods. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Nickman? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Lucy, and you curse GE. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know -- that GE’s moderation, while tragic, probably saved lives; and my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, keeps threads on track and under the appropriately sized, highlighted green headings.
You want moderation because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that forum -- you need me on that forum. We use words like "stay on topic," "use the appropriate forum," "please delete." We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very moderation that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather that you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you get a green handle and edit a post. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think about moderation.

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Nick and Nick's rant page

Post by The Rickman » May 8, 2018, 1:42 pm

Well you should, you blew your whole argument out of the water by being factually incorrect on that one point

It’s embarrassing to all of us, quite frankly
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Re: Nick and Nick's rant page

Post by dubby » May 8, 2018, 1:43 pm

I was thinking Hanlons razor may apply....
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Re: Nick and Nick's rant page

Post by The Rickman » May 8, 2018, 1:45 pm

Dubby, there’s only one person posting in this thread that Hanlon’s razor could apply to, and you just posted, m8
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Re: Nick and Nick's rant page

Post by The Rickman » May 8, 2018, 1:45 pm

Wait, wait... I actually don’t think it DOES apply to you and your beliefs
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