POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Wingers

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Who should be the wingers in the Canberra Raiders' strongest team for 2022?

Nick Cotric
26
45%
Albert Hopoate
1
2%
Jordan Rapana
25
43%
Xavier Savage
3
5%
Harley Smith-Shields
1
2%
Matt Timoko
0
No votes
Semi Valemei
2
3%
 
Total votes: 58

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greeneyed
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POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Wingers

Post by greeneyed »

POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Wingers

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What's your strongest possible 2022 Canberra Raiders line up? That's what we are asking the readers of The Greenhouse. We're looking at the "Locks and contenders" for each position in the team in a special series of articles. Some players have clearly locked down their spot but we're looking at all the contenders for places in the Green Machine's top 17. For contentious positions, we're supplementing the discussion with a series of polls... and in this poll, we're asking: Who should be fill the starting wing positions in 2022?

Remember, we're looking at the strongest possible team, irrespective of injuries.

Click here to read more: Locks and contenders: Wingers

You have TWO votes in this poll.

If you wish to vote for someone else, simply name them in a post in this thread.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Wingers

Post by greeneyed »

As per the article, I've gone for Rapana and Cotric.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Wingers

Post by Matt »

I think this is a no brainer TBH.
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POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Wingers

Post by greeneyed »

Matt wrote:I think this is a no brainer TBH.
I do too, but I’m seeing enough fans saying Nick Cotric to centre and others saying Xavier Savage on the wing to vote.


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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Wingers

Post by Botman »

The problem is... Savage simply HAS to be in the football team
ill save that for the bench spot but the GH **** up selecting CNK in that spot, i suspect the coach will too... so now wer're ****

But Savage simply has to be in the side, he should be at fullback.
Rapana and Cotric are very clearly who should be playing wing.

Edit: lol initially had savage on my mind and said Rapana and Savage should be on the wing... it should be Rapana and Cotric. Savage should play fullback
Last edited by Botman on January 24, 2022, 7:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Wingers

Post by Billy Walker »

Botman wrote: January 24, 2022, 7:34 pm The problem is... Savage simply HAS to be in the football team
ill save that for the bench spot but the GH **** up selecting CNK in that spot, i suspect the coach will too... so now wer're ****

But Savage simply has to be in the side, he should be at fullback.
Rapana and Savage are very clearly who should be playing wing.
You do realise there is every chance Ricky will hold him back and introduce him painstakingly slowly yeah. :nooo I agree with your take but I fear Ricky is on a different page to us.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Wingers

Post by Botman »

Billy Walker wrote: January 24, 2022, 7:55 pm You do realise there is every chance Ricky will hold him back and introduce him painstakingly slowly yeah. :nooo I agree with your take but I fear Ricky is on a different page to us.
I dont realise there is every chance, i realise that is overwhelmingly the likely outcome
The proof will be in the pudding with Savage but for my mind, we're past the days of players needing to "tough up" and "harden their bodies" for NRL football... sports science can take care of this ****. He's proven he is capable of playing and impacting games at an NRL level.
Savage is the most dynamic player we've had debut since Milford. He simply MUST be in the team. We simply arent good enough to leave players as talented as him out of the line up.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Wingers

Post by Roger Kenworthy »

Botman wrote: January 24, 2022, 8:00 pm
Billy Walker wrote: January 24, 2022, 7:55 pm You do realise there is every chance Ricky will hold him back and introduce him painstakingly slowly yeah. :nooo I agree with your take but I fear Ricky is on a different page to us.
I dont realise there is every chance, i realise that is overwhelmingly the likely outcome
The proof will be in the pudding with Savage but for my mind, we're past the days of players needing to "tough up" and "harden their bodies" for NRL football... sports science can take care of this ****. He's proven he is capable of playing and impacting games at an NRL level.
Savage is the most dynamic player we've had debut since Milford. He simply MUST be in the team. We simply arent good enough to leave players as talented as him out of the line up.
Yup not a take I agree on. Imagine if Benji and the Milf had been held back to their bodies had matured, the Tigers would still be chasing their first Premiership and Ben Hunt would be a much happier bloke.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Wingers

Post by Billy Walker »

Botman wrote: January 24, 2022, 8:00 pm
Billy Walker wrote: January 24, 2022, 7:55 pm You do realise there is every chance Ricky will hold him back and introduce him painstakingly slowly yeah. :nooo I agree with your take but I fear Ricky is on a different page to us.
I dont realise there is every chance, i realise that is overwhelmingly the likely outcome
The proof will be in the pudding with Savage but for my mind, we're past the days of players needing to "tough up" and "harden their bodies" for NRL football... sports science can take care of this ****. He's proven he is capable of playing and impacting games at an NRL level.
Savage is the most dynamic player we've had debut since Milford. He simply MUST be in the team. We simply arent good enough to leave players as talented as him out of the line up.
Who’s your 2022 bolter? I think Hopoate might surprise this year and get more game time than we expected.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Wingers

Post by Botman »

Billy Walker wrote: January 24, 2022, 8:47 pm Who’s your 2022 bolter? I think Hopoate might surprise this year and get more game time than we expected.
I dont think there is one... not sure how it shakes out by position but i think injuries being equal, by seasons end the back 5 will be some combination of Savage, Rapana, Cotric, CNK and either HSS/Timoko

Gun to my head, there is a path where 12 months from now we're as excited for Brad Morkos as we are for Savage right now.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Wingers

Post by greeneyed »

I’m as excited about Savage as anyone. But maybe Ricky has a bit of a point about physical development? He’s just come off a shoulder injury, which was so serious it required surgery. He’s had hamstring issues in lower grades. He’s relatively slight, the club no doubt has lots of sports science information about his physical development we don’t have. I can see why he’s not going to be thrown into fullback straight away. As mentioned in the article, I think he’s best blooded into firsts on the wing.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Wingers

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I’m in the camp of the best long term thing for Savage’s development will be a slow introduction to NRL. For every Benji there’s 10 very talented young guys who should have spent a bit more time developing their all round football skills, training regimen and metal capabilities.

Guys like Milf never developed the commitment to training and game improvement because things came too easily, too quickly.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Wingers

Post by -PJ- »

Rap and Nick.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Wingers

Post by Matt »

Botman wrote: January 24, 2022, 8:00 pm
Billy Walker wrote: January 24, 2022, 7:55 pm You do realise there is every chance Ricky will hold him back and introduce him painstakingly slowly yeah. :nooo I agree with your take but I fear Ricky is on a different page to us.
I dont realise there is every chance, i realise that is overwhelmingly the likely outcome
The proof will be in the pudding with Savage but for my mind, we're past the days of players needing to "tough up" and "harden their bodies" for NRL football... sports science can take care of this ****. He's proven he is capable of playing and impacting games at an NRL level.
Savage is the most dynamic player we've had debut since Milford. He simply MUST be in the team. We simply arent good enough to leave players as talented as him out of the line up.
Totally agree.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Wingers

Post by Roger Kenworthy »

BJ wrote: January 24, 2022, 10:24 pm I’m in the camp of the best long term thing for Savage’s development will be a slow introduction to NRL. For every Benji there’s 10 very talented young guys who should have spent a bit more time developing their all round football skills, training regimen and metal capabilities.

Guys like Milf never developed the commitment to training and game improvement because things came too easily, too quickly.
There are arguments to be made both ways. We saw with Milf that when he was put in a box and asked to be a more traditional lead half he failed the test miserably. I don't think any extra time training would have made that transition work, so by delaying his into to FG and turning him into something he's not you probably miss out on the purple patch he hit in 2015 and he's just a journeyman for however long his career lasts.

The older I get the more I think you need to strike while the iron is hot. Next year or 2024 when Savage is "ready" our biggest concern may well be avoiding the spoon, that's how transitory the NRL is.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Wingers

Post by BJ »

Roger Kenworthy wrote:
BJ wrote: January 24, 2022, 10:24 pm I’m in the camp of the best long term thing for Savage’s development will be a slow introduction to NRL. For every Benji there’s 10 very talented young guys who should have spent a bit more time developing their all round football skills, training regimen and metal capabilities.

Guys like Milf never developed the commitment to training and game improvement because things came too easily, too quickly.
There are arguments to be made both ways. We saw with Milf that when he was put in a box and asked to be a more traditional lead half he failed the test miserably. I don't think any extra time training would have made that transition work, so by delaying his into to FG and turning him into something he's not you probably miss out on the purple patch he hit in 2015 and he's just a journeyman for however long his career lasts.

The older I get the more I think you need to strike while the iron is hot. Next year or 2024 when Savage is "ready" our biggest concern may well be avoiding the spoon, that's how transitory the NRL is.
I’m not sure it was Milf being put into a box, I think (and from what I’ve heard) it was Milf’s low commitment to training, diet and a lack of desire to strive for the absolute top that hampered him.

I think too many young stars lose their way early because they haven’t matured enough for the weekly NRL grind.

I don’t want Savage blocked in the lower tier, but I also want a balanced introduction to life as an NRL player.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Wingers

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You can balance that off the field, that's what sports science can do. You can monitor the guy, understand where he is at physically, your head coach should understand where he's at mentally and emotionally, and sure if he needs a 1-2 game break somewhere in the season because he's banged up and you dont want to exacerbate the injury, by all means be judicious and conservative in what level of lingering injury you allow him to play with.

A guy like Josh Papalii, if he thinks he can go on busted ribs, you let him go. With a young guy like Savage, you might have protect him a little bit from himself and say "Sorry mate, you're sitting out this week. Get yourself healthy"... that's how you manage his introduction to NRL footy

You dont manage his introduction to NRL football by not allowing him the play NRL football. How does that achieve a damn thing? How does he familiarise himself with the physicality of the game if he's playing at a lower level that doesnt sniff that physicality? It makes no sense. Savage simply has to be in our starting team. We are doing ourselves and him a great disservice if he's not.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Wingers

Post by Roger Kenworthy »

I reckon it was 2018 his form really started to drop, so he was already in his sixth year. Tough to draw a link between that and his being graded in 2013 IMO - he managed to keep it all together for five seasons. 2017 World Cup is a much more likely causation where several notable NRL players got into horrible condition as part of the Samoa campaign. We saw that with a very sluggish Paulo.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Wingers

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Botman wrote:You can balance that off the field, that's what sports science can do. You can monitor the guy, understand where he is at physically, your head coach should understand where he's at mentally and emotionally, and sure if he needs a 1-2 game break somewhere in the season because he's banged up and you dont want to exacerbate the injury, by all means be judicious and conservative in what level of lingering injury you allow him to play with.

A guy like Josh Papalii, if he thinks he can go on busted ribs, you let him go. With a young guy like Savage, you might have protect him a little bit from himself and say "Sorry mate, you're sitting out this week. Get yourself healthy"... that's how you manage his introduction to NRL footy

You dont manage his introduction to NRL football by not allowing him the play NRL football. How does that achieve a damn thing? How does he familiarise himself with the physicality of the game if he's playing at a lower level that doesnt sniff that physicality? It makes no sense. Savage simply has to be in our starting team. We are doing ourselves and him a great disservice if he's not.
I’m trusting Stuart and the coaching staff to do the right thing. It certainly isn’t as easy and straight forward as you write.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Wingers

Post by Botman »

It actually is if you're trying to win football games
He's going to be 20 years old in April, he's not some 16 year old kid. There are countless 19-20 year old's across the league who are contributors to their NRL footy team
He's proven he's ready, he's proven he can play at this level, he's clearly one of our best and most dynamic players. That's it. It really truly is that simple.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Wingers

Post by BJ »

Botman wrote:It actually is if you're trying to win football games
He's going to be 20 years old in April, he's not some 16 year old kid. There are countless 19-20 year old's across the league who are contributors to their NRL footy team
He's proven he's ready, he's proven he can play at this level, he's clearly one of our best and most dynamic players. That's it. It really truly is that simple.
I’m predicting he’ll be there from around game 4 and hopefully he’ll be starring come finals time.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Wingers

Post by Botman »

I ask this question very earnestly... if your expectation/prediction is he's in the team by round 4 and starring by the finals... what tangible benefit do you expect the achieve in the 4 weeks in which he's not playing FG?

Like what is he doing for those 4 extra weeks that suddenly make him prepared for NRL football in round 4, but not in round 1 and have him starring by the finals?
Im really curious to see the answer to this and why it cant just be done now, to have him ready for Round 1.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Wingers

Post by greeneyed »

One reason might be, we've heard Brett White on the GMP in the off season, telling us that the shoulder injury Savage had, usually can be rectified by rest and rehabilitation. He sustained the injury after only two full games of NRL. It was so serious it required surgery. So it will take time for the shoulder to rebuild. That's the sort of issue that the coaching staff are grappling with. Ricky Stuart said in yesterday's Daily Telegraph story:

"He's certainly got talent. He's just a young boy who has to learn what it takes to be an NRL player and to play consistently. It's about building his mindset and building his physicality."

Their tests are likely showing that his physicality needs work.

I would add that the polls are supposed to be the "strongest" not the Round 1 line up.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Wingers

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Look, if his shoulder isn't ready to play football, that's another matter. We're not talking about holding him out because he's not ready to go in terms of his recovery from the shoulder op.
But if his shoulder is fine enough to play NSW Cup, then what are we doing here? He's just as likely to redo that injury or have another in NSW Cup as he is NRL. Im not sure i really know what working on/building his physically actually is. It sounds like some dumb old football coach cliche that no one can really explain because it not actually a thing, but whatever it is, my bet would be the only real way to get him conditioned to NRL physicality is to actually let the guy play NRL footy, which is an opportunity he's earned btw, through his talent and proven ability.

This is not chucking in some 16 old kid ahead of time because we're desperate and he's a great white hope.
He's 19 going on 20, he's not some kid who's discovering the gym for the first time after hitting puberty, he's been a professional athlete for a little while now and he has proven he belongs in our NRL side. At some point you kind of have to let the best guys play if you want to win football games.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Wingers

Post by BJ »

Botman. I was factoring in Savage’s shoulder injury from the start. That’s why I’ve been backing Stuart and the staff to make the correct call on when he gets selected for NRL.

I think the Milf discussion sidetracked and maybe confused things. I was wondering why you were so adamant on your points, but I get it now.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Wingers

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BJ wrote: January 25, 2022, 12:47 pm Botman. I was factoring in Savage’s shoulder injury from the start. That’s why I’ve been backing Stuart and the staff to make the correct call on when he gets selected for NRL.

I think the Milf discussion sidetracked and maybe confused things. I was wondering why you were so adamant on your points, but I get it now.
Ah right, that makes sense then. If he's not playing at all because his shoulder needs more time, i agree that's absolutely the right thing to do. He shouldnt play until he's 100%
:thumbsup
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Wingers

Post by BadnMean »

Botman wrote: January 25, 2022, 9:04 am It actually is if you're trying to win football games
He's going to be 20 years old in April, he's not some 16 year old kid. There are countless 19-20 year old's across the league who are contributors to their NRL footy team
He's proven he's ready, he's proven he can play at this level, he's clearly one of our best and most dynamic players. That's it. It really truly is that simple.
In general, I agree with the sentiment. I've said similar myself. He's not a "kid".

Where he may be playing catchup vs someone like Cotric, who was living and breathing footy forever and training like a pro and kind of came up at 18 "fully formed" vs Savage who was staying leaner and training like a racehorse (not a warhorse) as a sprinter during his mid teens.

I'm hoping by mid/end season he's forced his way in. I'd wish for sooner but just all the rumbling from within the club is sounding like the brakes are on.

But Fittler, Daley, Papenhuyzen, Slater etc etc started at 18-19 and I guess FIttler and all were fairly slight at the time, as most teens are.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Wingers

Post by RedRaider »

Only the coaching staff and Savage himself will know how his shoulder is recovering. We should get an indication if he is picked in the trial matches. As far as I know he is currently in re-hab. We all hope he recovers well and is able to play. We made selection errors last year by not having a back on the bench and got found out a number of times. If Savage was selected for impact off the bench I hope he gets more than the 3 minutes Anderson had. A bench spot would mean he could have either of 2 roles. Replace an injured player or come on at a time when impact is needed. It would fit with Sticky's philosophy of easing players into FG. To start the year though I'd go Cotric and Rapa (if available) on the wings.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Wingers

Post by Billy Walker »

It will be more than a little disappointing if building him up for first grade NRL equates to bulking him up to a point where he loses his key weapons of speed and agility. When his shoulder is good to go pick him in first grade.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Wingers

Post by greeneyed »

Poll declared for Jordan Rapana and Nick Cotric.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Wingers

Post by Matt »

Savage, CNK, Cotric, Rapa and Timoko need to be the back 5.
I'd go:
1. Savage
2. Cotric
3. CNK
4. Timoko
5. Rapa

However,
I can live with Savage or CNK at FB.
I can live with Savage or CNK, or Cotric at Wing.
I can live with CNK or Cotric at centre.
Just make it that 5.
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