POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Second rowers

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Who should be the second rowers in the Canberra Raiders' strongest team for 2022?

Adam Elliott
9
11%
Corey Harawira-Naera
33
39%
Elliott Whitehead
28
33%
Hudson Young
15
18%
 
Total votes: 85

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greeneyed
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POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Second rowers

Post by greeneyed »

POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Second rowers

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What's your strongest possible 2022 Canberra Raiders line up? That's what we are asking the readers of The Greenhouse. We're looking at the "Locks and contenders" for each position in the team in a special series of articles. Some players have clearly locked down their spot but we're looking at all the contenders for places in the Green Machine's top 17. For contentious positions, we're supplementing the discussion with a series of polls... and in this poll, we're asking: Who should be fill the starting second row positions in 2022?

Remember, we're looking at the strongest possible team, irrespective of injuries.

Click here to read more: Locks and contenders: Second rowers

You have TWO votes in this poll.

If you wish to vote for someone else, simply name them in a post in this thread.
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greeneyed
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Second rowers

Post by greeneyed »

As per the article, I’ve gone with Whitehead and Young.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Second rowers

Post by Raiders_Pat »

I can't have Young in my starting lineup. He's just not a starting calibre NRL second rower. Harawira-Naera is my first choice because he's clearly the best second rower in the squad. Then it would have to be Whitehead but I don't think he's fit for 80mins there at this stage in his career.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Second rowers

Post by Roger Kenworthy »

Hard to imagine Elliott won't start the year in first grade. Conservative defensive second rower, he wouldn't make much difference coming off the bench.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Second rowers

Post by Andymachine »

CHN and then daylight and then Whitehead for mine. Whitehead needs to up his output though. We can't have an 80 minute forward who only runs the ball 5 times per game. When he played lock a few years ago he really got involved a lot more.

Young is a poor defender on the edge and seems to play better in the middle. I'd be ok with him starting at lock or off the bench. Would also be fine to see Whitehead start at lock. Elliot is an unknown for me as I can't remember ever watching him play but if he goes alright on an edge then maybe its 11. Elliot 12. CHN 13. Whitehead.

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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Second rowers

Post by BJ »

When you say CHN and daylight to Whitehead. I can only make that the daylight of early January in the Arctic circle.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Second rowers

Post by julian87 »

CHN and Whitehead. Young is still painfully obviously a lock.
well, I guess you could say that I'm buy curious.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Second rowers

Post by Botman »

CHN and Whitehead are the clear and obvious answers.
I'm not sure i can take you seriously if you voted any other way as of right now.

If he proves to be a quality contributor, Elliott could help expedite Whitehead's move toward the middle
As his play last year showed, Young is a bench middle should only play edge in the event of in-game injury.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Second rowers

Post by Raider47 »

Would hardly say Whitehead is clearly ahead of Young atm after his form last season. Likely to start at 12, yes, but he should rightly be looking over his shoulder because if Young finds a bit more consistency he could well be our answer long term.

CHN is definitely our best second rower. Would like to see Kris be morphed into a second rower too as I see this position as one of our weaker ones and we need more depth. He could prove handy there.

Elliot and Young will probably be fighting for that lock role come Rd 1 I imagine. However would like to see Whitehead move more centrally.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Second rowers

Post by RedRaider »

I'd go CHN and EW. To jumble the letters a little, they will be CHEWN the opposition up in Round 1.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Second rowers

Post by Matt »

I've gone Whitey (left), coz I think that's what Ricky will do, and CHN (right) coz he is the best attacking edge weapon we have.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Second rowers

Post by Matt »

RedRaider wrote: January 17, 2022, 2:36 pm I'd go CHN and EW. To jumble the letters a little, they will be CHEWN the opposition up in Round 1.
:lol:
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Second rowers

Post by gangrenous »

WENCH
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Second rowers

Post by Botman »

I've already done my wordle for today, so i cant help you on this task
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Second rowers

Post by julian87 »

Raider47 wrote: January 17, 2022, 10:06 am Would hardly say Whitehead is clearly ahead of Young atm after his form last season. Likely to start at 12, yes, but he should rightly be looking over his shoulder because if Young finds a bit more consistency he could well be our answer long term.

CHN is definitely our best second rower. Would like to see Kris be morphed into a second rower too as I see this position as one of our weaker ones and we need more depth. He could prove handy there.

Elliot and Young will probably be fighting for that lock role come Rd 1 I imagine. However would like to see Whitehead move more centrally.
With the way the game has gone and back coverage almost essential now I reckon Kris should be the bench second rower. If all goes to plan he provides 20+ minutes of energy in the forwards. If injuries or HIA's occur in the backs he covers there and plays centre. I think it's a pretty obvious and positive selection too tbh.
well, I guess you could say that I'm buy curious.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Second rowers

Post by Wiki Special »

julian87 wrote: January 18, 2022, 12:32 pm
Raider47 wrote: January 17, 2022, 10:06 am Would hardly say Whitehead is clearly ahead of Young atm after his form last season. Likely to start at 12, yes, but he should rightly be looking over his shoulder because if Young finds a bit more consistency he could well be our answer long term.

CHN is definitely our best second rower. Would like to see Kris be morphed into a second rower too as I see this position as one of our weaker ones and we need more depth. He could prove handy there.

Elliot and Young will probably be fighting for that lock role come Rd 1 I imagine. However would like to see Whitehead move more centrally.
With the way the game has gone and back coverage almost essential now I reckon Kris should be the bench second rower. If all goes to plan he provides 20+ minutes of energy in the forwards. If injuries or HIA's occur in the backs he covers there and plays centre. I think it's a pretty obvious and positive selection too tbh.
Absolutely agree re: Kris. Him, Starling plus two players that can play middle should be our bench for sure, imo.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Second rowers

Post by Raiders_Pat »

Wiki Special wrote: January 18, 2022, 12:44 pm
julian87 wrote: January 18, 2022, 12:32 pm
Raider47 wrote: January 17, 2022, 10:06 am Would hardly say Whitehead is clearly ahead of Young atm after his form last season. Likely to start at 12, yes, but he should rightly be looking over his shoulder because if Young finds a bit more consistency he could well be our answer long term.

CHN is definitely our best second rower. Would like to see Kris be morphed into a second rower too as I see this position as one of our weaker ones and we need more depth. He could prove handy there.

Elliot and Young will probably be fighting for that lock role come Rd 1 I imagine. However would like to see Whitehead move more centrally.
With the way the game has gone and back coverage almost essential now I reckon Kris should be the bench second rower. If all goes to plan he provides 20+ minutes of energy in the forwards. If injuries or HIA's occur in the backs he covers there and plays centre. I think it's a pretty obvious and positive selection too tbh.
Absolutely agree re: Kris. Him, Starling plus two players that can play middle should be our bench for sure, imo.
If Kris is on the bench then I think Young drops out of the 17. But I think I would probably have to agree that of the two, it's probably wiser to carry Kris on the bench who can also cover an injury to a back.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Second rowers

Post by greeneyed »

This poll will close on Thursday, so as to allow us to move on to lock.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Second rowers

Post by Roger Kenworthy »

I don't see anyone in this poll being a certain starter. I guess Whitehead will be based on captaincy but he's hardly a walk up start based on 2021 form. The other spot is there to be won in the preseason.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Second rowers

Post by greeneyed »

Roger Kenworthy wrote: January 18, 2022, 3:25 pm I don't see anyone in this poll being a certain starter. I guess Whitehead will be based on captaincy but he's hardly a walk up start based on 2021 form. The other spot is there to be won in the preseason.
I agree, it’s not at all clear cut. For a start Harawira-Narawera lost his starting spot to Young at the end of last year… and both had about the same number of starting games.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Second rowers

Post by Raiders_Pat »

Roger Kenworthy wrote: January 18, 2022, 3:25 pm I don't see anyone in this poll being a certain starter. I guess Whitehead will be based on captaincy but he's hardly a walk up start based on 2021 form. The other spot is there to be won in the preseason.
Agree that Whitehead very likely will start at second row but Harawira-Naera is the best second rower at the club. There is only a starting spot available in the second row if Whitehead shifts to lock imo (which I don't see happening).
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Second rowers

Post by Roger Kenworthy »

Raiders_Pat wrote: January 18, 2022, 4:08 pm
Roger Kenworthy wrote: January 18, 2022, 3:25 pm I don't see anyone in this poll being a certain starter. I guess Whitehead will be based on captaincy but he's hardly a walk up start based on 2021 form. The other spot is there to be won in the preseason.
Agree that Whitehead very likely will start at second row but Harawira-Naera is the best second rower at the club. There is only a starting spot available in the second row if Whitehead shifts to lock imo (which I don't see happening).
CHN still needs to work on staying on the paddock and cutting his brain fades. Definitely the most talented ball runner out of the 4 options by a fair margin.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Second rowers

Post by BJ »

No problem with CHN’s attack, but his defensive reads and footy smarts need some work.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Second rowers

Post by Botman »

He's not a superstar edge player, no one is saying he is. He's got his issues he needs to address
However he's very clearly and obvious the best edge forward in this team, it's not even close to be perfectly honest.

Certainly not when compared to Hudson Young who couldnt run a line to save his life, literally has no idea what he's doing out there as an attacking weapon, and who's defensive prowess on the edge was exposed the more time he spent there. By seasons end, given the time he spend in the position, minute for minute, statisitcally i believe he was our worst edge forward defender by some margin.

Anyone who honestly watches Young play and thinks he should play edge... well, head back to camp, i got nothing for ya.

Our edge forward position is a problem. If CHN is your best edge forward, you need an upgrade. CHN is our best but if he's the sort of player where if he's your best edge forward, you need an upgrade, and if he's your #2 edge forward, that's a good spot. Unfortunately for us he is #1.

And spare me the "losing his spot" nonsense. Croker is going to be the first picked centre if he's healthy, on that rationale, he's our #1 centre. He's not, and we all know it. I have eyes and i watch football, the Coach can do as he pleases but i know Croker isnt in our best 17 and i know CHN is (for better or worse) our best edge forward.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Second rowers

Post by greeneyed »

When you look at the numbers, Elliott Whitehead is clearly the worst edge defender of the three. I’d argue CHN is also a worse defender than Young, but it’s a bit mixed and not by much. Interesting to compare the attacking stats too. That’s where Whitehead is strongest, though he didn’t have a great year in 2021. He has skills the others don’t. CHN and Young have different styles in attack, but their 2021 numbers aren’t too different. Then there’s the discipline issues, which Young has fixed, CHN still had some problems on that score.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Second rowers

Post by Botman »

Raw numbers or split by numbers spent in the position?
And of course i know the answer. It's raw numbers. Because the NRL dont have advanced stats available to the public where you can split them.
Whitehead probably spent 99% of his minutes playing edge, CHN and Young both spent time playing both, so their numbers are tough to parse on stats alone. But we saw Young concede time and time again, and provide almost nothing offensively on the edge. We saw CHN have very bad and frustrating games, and his impact as an edge attacker.

Young started the year off very strongly defensively and by seasons end he was... a disaster. And not because he was caught out of position or lack of focus. He simply failed to hang with the athletes out wide. His impact with ball in hand... well, find me the highlights where he was functioning as an edge forward running off a half 2 passes wide. I'd like to see it. He had a moment or two sure, but virtually every big play he made with ball in hand came one off the ruck attacking middle defenders. That's not analysis. Its cold fact. It backs up his 2019 where he made his bones doing exactly this.

As for discipline
Young has 10 penalties in 19 games. Or 0.52 pens per game
CHN has 12 penalties in 15 games. 0.80 pens per game
Game to game its pretty negligable. Young has certainly NOT fixed that issue :lol:

edit: and to be clear, im not writing Young off as an edge player, its a tough position to play and there is no reason physically why cant play out wide. He might take a leap this year and prove himself out there. And conversely CHN has the ability to be an impact bench middle. In that respect their skillset overlap, but to date, Young's best football by some considerable margin imo, has been played in the middle and CHN's on the edge.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Second rowers

Post by greeneyed »

Five weeks of suspensions, one send off and effective club match penalties on top was what I was referring to.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Second rowers

Post by Botman »

You really want to compare these two on those grounds?
Over the last 2 years...

CHN - 3 games for an unintentional high shot, which was dramatically reduced on (LOL, big time yikes) a clean record, 2 games from a DUI. Send off.

Young - 13 weeks for not one, but TWO very intentional attempts to remove a player retina. Both of which i think were send offs (happy to be corrected)

as far as discipline goes, one has hurt this club considerably more in their time than the other. And it ain't CHN.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Second rowers

Post by greeneyed »

greeneyed wrote: January 18, 2022, 8:11 pm Then there’s the discipline issues, which Young has fixed, CHN still had some problems on that score.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Second rowers

Post by Botman »

“Fixed”
Because he didn’t try and take an eye out for a whole year

Let’s bring this back to football
Please post the highlights of Hudson Young making impact as an actual edge forward
Either as a block runner or hole runner
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Second rowers

Post by gangrenous »

0.8 is a 50% increase on 0.52. Not sure that’s really a push, but the sample size isn’t huge.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Second rowers

Post by Raiders_Pat »

Roger Kenworthy wrote: January 18, 2022, 5:05 pm
Raiders_Pat wrote: January 18, 2022, 4:08 pm
Roger Kenworthy wrote: January 18, 2022, 3:25 pm I don't see anyone in this poll being a certain starter. I guess Whitehead will be based on captaincy but he's hardly a walk up start based on 2021 form. The other spot is there to be won in the preseason.
Agree that Whitehead very likely will start at second row but Harawira-Naera is the best second rower at the club. There is only a starting spot available in the second row if Whitehead shifts to lock imo (which I don't see happening).
CHN still needs to work on staying on the paddock and cutting his brain fades. Definitely the most talented ball runner out of the 4 options by a fair margin.
I agree with that too. I just don't think Young is suited to the edge. I'm with Botman that he's much more suited to the middle. I actually think he'd be most effective as a mobile prop type rather than lock, you want a bit more ball playing from your lock these days. Handy to have in the squad though and he can cover second row if needed. Second row is where we're most thin imo.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Second rowers

Post by julian87 »

Raiders_Pat wrote: January 18, 2022, 1:03 pm
Wiki Special wrote: January 18, 2022, 12:44 pm
julian87 wrote: January 18, 2022, 12:32 pm
Raider47 wrote: January 17, 2022, 10:06 am Would hardly say Whitehead is clearly ahead of Young atm after his form last season. Likely to start at 12, yes, but he should rightly be looking over his shoulder because if Young finds a bit more consistency he could well be our answer long term.

CHN is definitely our best second rower. Would like to see Kris be morphed into a second rower too as I see this position as one of our weaker ones and we need more depth. He could prove handy there.

Elliot and Young will probably be fighting for that lock role come Rd 1 I imagine. However would like to see Whitehead move more centrally.
With the way the game has gone and back coverage almost essential now I reckon Kris should be the bench second rower. If all goes to plan he provides 20+ minutes of energy in the forwards. If injuries or HIA's occur in the backs he covers there and plays centre. I think it's a pretty obvious and positive selection too tbh.
Absolutely agree re: Kris. Him, Starling plus two players that can play middle should be our bench for sure, imo.
If Kris is on the bench then I think Young drops out of the 17. But I think I would probably have to agree that of the two, it's probably wiser to carry Kris on the bench who can also cover an injury to a back.
You've got Elliott over Young?

One of them, and not one of the props, has to be lock imo.
well, I guess you could say that I'm buy curious.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Second rowers

Post by Roger Kenworthy »

Botman wrote: January 18, 2022, 8:46 pm Raw numbers or split by numbers spent in the position?
And of course i know the answer. It's raw numbers. Because the NRL dont have advanced stats available to the public where you can split them.
Whitehead probably spent 99% of his minutes playing edge, CHN and Young both spent time playing both, so their numbers are tough to parse on stats alone. But we saw Young concede time and time again, and provide almost nothing offensively on the edge. We saw CHN have very bad and frustrating games, and his impact as an edge attacker.

Young started the year off very strongly defensively and by seasons end he was... a disaster. And not because he was caught out of position or lack of focus. He simply failed to hang with the athletes out wide. His impact with ball in hand... well, find me the highlights where he was functioning as an edge forward running off a half 2 passes wide. I'd like to see it. He had a moment or two sure, but virtually every big play he made with ball in hand came one off the ruck attacking middle defenders. That's not analysis. Its cold fact. It backs up his 2019 where he made his bones doing exactly this.

As for discipline
Young has 10 penalties in 19 games. Or 0.52 pens per game
CHN has 12 penalties in 15 games. 0.80 pens per game
Game to game its pretty negligable. Young has certainly NOT fixed that issue :lol:

edit: and to be clear, im not writing Young off as an edge player, its a tough position to play and there is no reason physically why cant play out wide. He might take a leap this year and prove himself out there. And conversely CHN has the ability to be an impact bench middle. In that respect their skillset overlap, but to date, Young's best football by some considerable margin imo, has been played in the middle and CHN's on the edge.
Yeah NRL stats are heavily skewed based on their simplicity. CHN had a nightmare game against Souths where he continued giving away boneheaded penalties striking at the ball in the play the ball and being offside chasing a kick. He gave away 3 penalties that night from memory, majorly skews his season average but was just a really bad 15-30 minutes of play.
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Re: POLL: Strongest 2022 line up: Second rowers

Post by Botman »

Yeah he had 4 that day iirc
Think he also had one other game where he did the same and collected 2 within a matter of minutes getting into it with some back rower who got under his skin, (maybe knights Barnett?)
Of his 12 penalties, a third of them came in that period against Souths when he lost his mind.

Young was just this consistent thing every other game where he was giving away dumb penalties

And to be clear, I don’t view one as style of stupidity being any better or worse than the other. They both need to clean that **** up.
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