40 Year Canberra Raiders Dream Team: Centres

[greeneyed]

What this highlights is the negativity associated with Croker. There is no such negativity around similar players who were great servants of our club such as Alan Tongue, Dean Lance, and Chris O Sullivan. I selected these as a comparison as all played a lot of games for our club and 2 were (former) captains, but didn't break into the SOO rep scene. Despite that, all three are held in the highest regard.

Sure - Croker was no international or SOO player. I have to say Croker is not one of my favourite players but if he is selected by the majority of fans then we have to respect that. He was very, very, good at one point in time for us. I am not saying now, but pre 2020. His goalkicking is miles better than Mal or Furner. I would not trust Furner's kicking unless it is 10 metres each side of the black dot. I recently watched a video of Nic Cotric's highlights to remind myself what he could offer. What was salient was Croker's role in setting him up - his passes and movement to find space in 2017. He was very good between 2016-2019.

I've watched many interviews involving Croker and even when they went to his house and they interviewed his (now) wife Brittany. I've never met the guy but he seems like a nice guy too - down to earth, measured, and has the interests of the club first. And no controversy like drink driving or fighting or even worse like some of our stars (including selected in our greatest ever team or about to) have been involved in.

I think the negativity boils down to his long and large contract which many people think is unjustified, his performances in the last 2 years, and the beta vibes that he gives due to his mistackles or when he is dominated in tackles.

At one time a small minority of fans used to criticise Mal Meninga… he was called lazy, inconsistent and it was suggested he put more into rep football than for his club. The negativism about Jarrod Croker, particularly the nature and vehemence of some of some of it, from a small minority, is poorly based. Alan Tongue was widely criticised after he moved to hooker as I recall… same with Terry Campese in the latter stages of his career. Mostly, it evaporates after the players retire.

[BadnMean]

Campo copped the "captain catch n pass" in his final stretch. Quite similar to Croker that, in that fans could see he was cooked but the nature of athletes is they also think it's all about to turn their way again. But you're right, that's all faded now and Campo is secure in his place as a beloved clubman.

Bumped into him as I was leaving the '19 GF actually. He was just with the rest of the punters and was great with the crowd. He must have been gutted as the rest of us but he had time for everyone who wanted to speak to him.

[Seiffert82]

Campo comes across as a genuinely good bloke.

In this thread it was mentioned who would be our best 5/8 if Daley was selected in the centres. O'Sullivan has a good claim to that role, but as much as I like Wighton, I think Camp just pips him as an elite defensive half, had a similarly devastating running game and was a much superior ball player and had a more consistent kicking game.

Campese was the second best 5/8 this club has seen IMO.

[Botman]

Blake Austin is another good one too... boy i was fed up with him by the end. Everyone in the NRL had figured out his trick and his defensive efforts grated me like nothing else.... couldnt wait to send him packing

And yet now, when i think of his time, i remember him more for all the really fun moments he gave me as a fan... man he was a fun player to watch when no one knew what to do with that exagerated step. Really fun times, a little bit of hope in a dark time.

[Raiders_Pat]

With Mal making the team at left centre, can Croker be in the running? He's played on the left side his entire career, hasn't he?

[hrundi89]

What this highlights is the negativity associated with Croker. There is no such negativity around similar players who were great servants of our club such as Alan Tongue, Dean Lance, and Chris O Sullivan. I selected these as a comparison as all played a lot of games for our club and 2 were (former) captains, but didn't break into the SOO rep scene. Despite that, all three are held in the highest regard.

Tongue, Lance and O'Sullivan are all club legends but they don't warrant selection in our best ever team.

Neither does Jarrod.

[gerg]

Best side has Loz at 5/8: he's better at every single aspect of half play. Maybe you could call defence even.

Then Wiki at #4.

Yep, I thought Wiki was the second best centre at this club. Back when he and Mal were playing they completely shut down both edges. This was back when (arguably) your best player, or close to, played in the centres.

[gerg]

Campo comes across as a genuinely good bloke.

In this thread it was mentioned who would be our best 5/8 if Daley was selected in the centres. O'Sullivan has a good claim to that role, but as much as I like Wighton, I think Camp just pips him as an elite defensive half, had a similarly devastating running game and was a much superior ball player and had a more consistent kicking game.

Campese was the second best 5/8 this club has seen IMO.

Loved him as a player. That purple patch was some of the most beautiful football I've ever had the joy to see. I also loved that he never took a backwards step to anyone. Always amongst it.

[greeneyed]

With Mal making the team at left centre, can Croker be in the running? He's played on the left side his entire career, hasn't he?

Actually, Mal played in No. 4 too. But to answer the question, the polls have always been on the basis that players can adjust to either side of the field.

[Seiffert82]

Campo comes across as a genuinely good bloke.

In this thread it was mentioned who would be our best 5/8 if Daley was selected in the centres. O'Sullivan has a good claim to that role, but as much as I like Wighton, I think Camp just pips him as an elite defensive half, had a similarly devastating running game and was a much superior ball player and had a more consistent kicking game.

Campese was the second best 5/8 this club has seen IMO.

Loved him as a player. That purple patch was some of the most beautiful football I've ever had the joy to see. I also loved that he never took a backwards step to anyone. Always amongst it.

Yep, Sully had longevity and it is easy to forget he was a key member of 3 grand final teams. Very underrated player. However in my mind Campo at his peak was a superior talent. Such as shame his career was cruelled by injury. As you say, there was no backwards steps with Campese. One of the most determined players I've seen at the club.

[Raiders_Pat]

With Mal making the team at left centre, can Croker be in the running? He's played on the left side his entire career, hasn't he?

Actually, Mal played in No. 4 too. But to answer the question, the polls have always been on the basis that players can adjust to either side of the field.

Mal played in the number 4 jersey but on the left side, didn't he? I think it's fair for players that played on both sides of the field to be considered on both sides but it's a bit hard to make that argument for a player who has played exclusively on one side. For all other positions, it's the best player for that particular position. But I do understand that's not how the voting system works for centres, wingers, etc.

[greeneyed]

With Mal making the team at left centre, can Croker be in the running? He's played on the left side his entire career, hasn't he?

Actually, Mal played in No. 4 too. But to answer the question, the polls have always been on the basis that players can adjust to either side of the field.

Mal played in the number 4 jersey but on the left side, didn't he? I think it's fair for players that played on both sides of the field to be considered on both sides but it's a bit hard to make that argument for a player who has played exclusively on one side. For all other positions, it's the best player for that particular position. But I do understand that's not how the voting system works for centres, wingers, etc.

Or second rowers or props. So over half the starting team. And we’ve applied that for 15 years.

[finch]

Anyone voting for Jarrod Croker obviously isn't thinking clearly. Who in their right mind would rather defend against Mal and Joey Leilua?

[bonehead]

Anyone voting for Jarrod Croker obviously isn't thinking clearly. Who in their right mind would rather defend against Mal and Joey Leilua?

you're entitled to your opinion like everyone else

Sent from my SM-G991B using Tapatalk

[Billy Walker]

Anyone voting for Jarrod Croker obviously isn't thinking clearly. Who in their right mind would rather defend against Mal and Joey Leilua?

I’m not a Croker fan, but not sure I can get on board with this either. I guess everyone has their own criteria for a greatest ever team, and yes when BJ was here I’d be picking him ahead of JC if I were selecting a team but he doesn’t sit well in a greatest team for mine.

[Crash Ball]

I get that people don't vote for players they didn't see, but even accounting for that and peoples personal preference for longevity this margin is way off. It's clear when you look at the reports from the time that Jackson was behind only Belcher and alongside Backo and O'sullivan as the star players and chief force in our first grand final side. He was arguably the hottest player in the game in 87 and 88 and tipped to be a future Kangaroo and QLD captain. Along with O'connor he was the best center in the world over that 2 year period and that was a time of some amazing centers, albeit Mal was injured. He was an absolute star in rep football over as well including producing one of the great Origin performances filling in for Wally in game 1 in 1988 . If we had a player who had of produced the same in the last 2 years he would be straight in at center without any debate.

Anyway this is just a bit of fun, but it does illustrate why the NRL relies heavily on objective measurement and vetting by historians for the Hall of Fame.

[Raiders_Pat]

I get that people don't vote for players they didn't see, but even accounting for that and peoples personal preference for longevity this margin is way off. It's clear when you look at the reports from the time that Jackson was behind only Belcher and alongside Backo and O'sullivan as the star players and chief force in our first grand final side. He was arguably the hottest player in the game in 87 and 88 and tipped to be a future Kangaroo and QLD captain. Along with O'connor he was the best center in the world over that 2 year period and that was a time of some amazing centers, albeit Mal was injured. He was an absolute star in rep football over as well including producing one of the great Origin performances filling in for Wally in game 1 in 1988 . If we had a player who had of produced the same in the last 2 years he would be straight in at center without any debate.

Anyway this is just a bit of fun, but it does illustrate why the NRL relies heavily on objective measurement and vetting by historians for the Hall of Fame.

Agreed. Every other player making the team was a rep player. Jarrod Croker making the team would be similar to Alan Tongue making the team imo. Good players and club stalwarts... but there are definitely better players in front of them.

[Botman]

With Mal making the team at left centre, can Croker be in the running? He's played on the left side his entire career, hasn't he?

What are doing here guys
This is truly magnificent.

Guys, its a paper team. It's just some dudes on the internet voting for a team.
These guys arent going to gather together tomorrow and take on the roosters best 17 at Bruce

[Northern Raider]

With Mal making the team at left centre, can Croker be in the running? He's played on the left side his entire career, hasn't he?

What are doing here guys
This is truly magnificent.

Guys, its a paper team. It's just some dudes on the internet voting for a team.
These guys arent going to gather together tomorrow and take on the roosters best 17 at Bruce

Back in Mal's day they had inside and outside centres. Not left and right. Based on that he doesn't qualify for this team.

[Billy Walker]

With Mal making the team at left centre, can Croker be in the running? He's played on the left side his entire career, hasn't he?

What are doing here guys
This is truly magnificent.

Guys, its a paper team. It's just some dudes on the internet voting for a team.
These guys arent going to gather together tomorrow and take on the roosters best 17 at Bruce

Very controversial to assume it’s being played at Bruce…. I vote Seiffert!

[Botman]

With Mal making the team at left centre, can Croker be in the running? He's played on the left side his entire career, hasn't he?

What are doing here guys
This is truly magnificent.

Guys, its a paper team. It's just some dudes on the internet voting for a team.
These guys arent going to gather together tomorrow and take on the roosters best 17 at Bruce

Very controversial to assume it’s being played at Bruce…. I vote Seiffert!

I know when i've been bested. Fair call, Billy. Seiffert it is!

[Raiders_Pat]

With Mal making the team at left centre, can Croker be in the running? He's played on the left side his entire career, hasn't he?

What are doing here guys
This is truly magnificent.

Guys, its a paper team. It's just some dudes on the internet voting for a team.
These guys arent going to gather together tomorrow and take on the roosters best 17 at Bruce

Back in Mal's day they had inside and outside centres. Not left and right. Based on that he doesn't qualify for this team.

I was being cheeky with that comment, gotta drum up the controversy on this selection.

When did things shift from having inside/outside centres to left/right? I thought the inside/outside thing had pretty much died in first grade at some point in the '80s. But I'm not old enough to be the expert on this subject.

[Botman]

I remember talking about this a few months ago, and i narrowed it down to somewhere between 1996-1998
in 1994 and 1995 is still very much inside/outside centres for all clubs, and by 1998 virtually everyone had shifted to left/right.

[Raiders_Pat]

I remember talking about this a few months ago, and i narrowed it down to somewhere between 1996-1998
in 1994 and 1995 is still very much inside/outside centres for all clubs, and by 1998 virtually everyone had shifted to left/right.

Was it split left and right defensively for some time before that? For some reason, I remember Mal being primarily on the left. Although now I do recall him in plays on the right side a lot in attack.

[bonehead]

I remember talking about this a few months ago, and i narrowed it down to somewhere between 1996-1998
in 1994 and 1995 is still very much inside/outside centres for all clubs, and by 1998 virtually everyone had shifted to left/right.

Was it split left and right defensively for some time before that? For some reason, I remember Mal being primarily on the left. Although now I do recall him in plays on the right side a lot in attack.

Mal was playing right side from at least 1989, remember the Mick Neil ankle tap.
Sheens I'd say was one of the first to split them from limited viewing of early 90s games.

Wingers were funny for sides, I remember Dale Shearer always ran to the opposite side of the field from the tunnel each half.

Sent from my SM-G991B using Tapatalk

[Billy Walker]

Everything old is new again, I’d like to see us return to an old attacking formation where the ball doesn’t reach the outside centre unless it has gone through the half, 5/8 and inside centre. I also think teams were far too quick to give up on the flying wedge. And moustaches and high riding shorts and the occasional spear tackle…. Let’s do it.

[Raiders_Pat]

Everything old is new again, I’d like to see us return to an old attacking formation where the ball doesn’t reach the outside centre unless it has gone through the half, 5/8 and inside centre. I also think teams were far too quick to give up on the flying wedge. And moustaches and high riding shorts and the occasional spear tackle…. Let’s do it.

I think right and left centres are fine but there is a lot of merit in playing a more traditional first and second receiver set up in the halves with our halfback and 5/8. Wingers or centres could pop up on the other side to give an extra man on backline plays though, we're seeing that more at the top level too.

[Roger Kenworthy]

How good is the banter going to be in this thread in 2031 when 30 Origin centre HSS wraps up one centre spot and we're told Big Mal can only be considered for five eighth because it's a more important position than centre.

[Billy Walker]

How good is the banter going to be in this thread in 2031 when 30 Origin centre HSS wraps up one centre spot and we're told Big Mal can only be considered for five eighth because it's a more important position than centre.

[GreenGirl]

IMO if your picking a Greatest Raiders team over a specific period of time then Wiki plays 2nd Row and BJ plays center. (I'm to young to have an opinion on Jackson)

You could even make an argument for Josh Papalli to play at 2nd row and bring in another of our Props. People forget about Shillington's representative record and he was genuinely one of the games best front rowers for a sustained period of time there

If its a one off game of Raiders GOAT v another teams GOAT for your life then I'm picking Bateman at 2nd row with Wiki at center.

Either way - this team has too many tries in it to have to worry about goalkicking

[Seiffert82]

I get that people don't vote for players they didn't see, but even accounting for that and peoples personal preference for longevity this margin is way off. It's clear when you look at the reports from the time that Jackson was behind only Belcher and alongside Backo and O'sullivan as the star players and chief force in our first grand final side. He was arguably the hottest player in the game in 87 and 88 and tipped to be a future Kangaroo and QLD captain. Along with O'connor he was the best center in the world over that 2 year period and that was a time of some amazing centers, albeit Mal was injured. He was an absolute star in rep football over as well including producing one of the great Origin performances filling in for Wally in game 1 in 1988 . If we had a player who had of produced the same in the last 2 years he would be straight in at center without any debate.

Anyway this is just a bit of fun, but it does illustrate why the NRL relies heavily on objective measurement and vetting by historians for the Hall of Fame.

In every one of these polls until now I have voted for Jackson as our second best centre. He was an absolute gun for us in 1987-88. Super evasive, a solid defender and was able to set up his outside man as well as anyone in the league. Perfect inside centre for the time.

However... the way Leilua played in 2016 and 2018 was as good as anything I saw from Jacko at centre. At times he was downright unstoppable. His combination with Rapana was outstanding. Even during his indifferent years of 2017 and 2019 had a number of genuine highlights.

I originally voted Jackson, but changed my mind. Leilua is a fundamentally flawed character and he really screwed his legacy with the club at the end of his tenure - but if I'm being honest with myself, his time with the Raiders was as good as anything we saw from Jacko (and probably better), and he did it over a longer period.

I have no complaints over whoever gets picked. I think there is absolutely a genuine argument for Croker too. Over five years between 2012 and 2016 he averaged over 14 tries a season. Leilua has never cracked 14 in a single season. The guy knew how to get over the tryline and was an absolute gem at setting up his outside man. His defence was also as good as Leilua's. The narrative about him from some in this place is ridiculous.

Jacko and Leilua were special talents, but only did it for a very short period of time. Croker gets an unfair hiding here at times. He really was a top shelf centre at his peak. I've seen them all do their thing. They all rightfully deserve a mention.

[Crash Ball]

I guess my view of BJ after 2016 isn't as generous. If I picked a team based on peak seasons he would be straight in though.

[Billy Walker]

IMO if your picking a Greatest Raiders team over a specific period of time then Wiki plays 2nd Row and BJ plays center. (I'm to young to have an opinion on Jackson)

You could even make an argument for Josh Papalli to play at 2nd row and bring in another of our Props. People forget about Shillington's representative record and he was genuinely one of the games best front rowers for a sustained period of time there

If its a one off game of Raiders GOAT v another teams GOAT for your life then I'm picking Bateman at 2nd row with Wiki at center.

Either way - this team has too many tries in it to have to worry about goalkicking

Hey GG - Without disagreeing with you, I can’t help feel that a lot of your post was really about supporting you’re not so modest boast that you’re too young to have seen Jacko play

A day will come when a long term veteran like Ryan Hoffman retires and you too will look at the wrinkled face in the mirror and think - “sheez I used to watch that blokes father play”

[Billy Walker]

Just on Jacko, GE and others may have a view, but I recall he was very good at slipping in an end on end grabber kick behind the line on a cross field angle bringing all chasers into play. I felt he was a bit of a pioneer of that style of kick that was adopted by other teams. Perhaps he was the only one I was watching and he copied it from others but I seem to recall it was something that he did very well.

[Botman]

Im with Seiffert82
I didnt see jackson much so cant comment on that other than those that did think he was a hell of a player, and BJ's highs for this club were INCREDIBLY high and dominant

I voted for Croker and think he's ultimately the right selection, but it's close. I did consider BJ though