Forward pack and defence

[pickles]

There has been a lot of discussion about the speed and agility of our back line and there is no doubt that other teams are far stronger than us in this department and it needs a shake up. That said, our forward pack and defence are the 2 things that we have built our recent successful seasons on and both are massively underperforming this year.

In attack our forward pack are getting owned by every other team. Most of our forward runs are one out and back in behind the ruck and as team have compressed their defensive lines more this has made it easy to get numbers into the tackle and ensure that we have a slow play of the ball against a set line. There hardly seems to be any support runs, interchange of passing or even footwork that would create a legs tackle and quick play of the ball that would generate some momentum. We need bodies in motion and some variety to generate some momentum. Last year with basically the same pack we were doing this consistently and making good inroads. So is this about confidence? Effort? Fitness or a combination of the 3?

One thing that is still true in this current iteration of rugby league is that halves and backlines are only effective if the forwards are winning the battle and at the moment ours are not.

Defence was the cornerstone of our play over the past few seasons and it seems to have gone missing this year. From my perspective defence is based on having good structures, communicating well, trusting each other and effort. A lot of this starts in the middle and if the middle doesn't work hard in pushing across to the edges modern attacks will cut you to ribbons. We just don't seem to have the desire for the contact or the willingness to push across hard to help team mates out this season. I don't buy that it is completely fitness related. In most athletic pursuits the brain gives up before the body fails and that seems to be what is happening here.

Not being able to put a consistent team on the field from week to week has an impact but this is where having good structures matters and based on the past few years structure isn't the issue.

The only positive out of this is that while attitude/mentality issues can be challenging to overcome they can shift much more quickly than structural defensive issues and I wouldn't be surprised if our forwards started getting on top again that our backline was good enough to make us competitive again.

[Aero]

I agree. It's hard for the backline to get creative if we're not making the yards and creating that platform for them to shine.

I, for one, gets sick of seeing our forwards running back behind the ruck and straight into the marker defence.

It's a game plan that seems to work against us - oppositions seem to always exploit our space behind the ruck.

So, is it that our forwards are too slow to exploit that space in attack? Or is our marker defence so bad that oppositions make so much yardage up our middle? Or is it both?




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[The Nickman]

I agree. It's hard for the backline to get creative if we're not making the yards and creating that platform for them to shine.

I, for one, gets sick of seeing our forwards running back behind the ruck and straight into the marker defence.

It's a game plan that seems to work against us - oppositions seem to always exploit our space behind the ruck.

So, is it that our forwards are too slow to exploit that space in attack? Or is our marker defence so bad that oppositions make so much yardage up our middle? Or is it both?




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Both.

[afgtnk]

Repeated heavy contact takes top fitness and conditioning.

Consistently good linespeed throughout a match to help negate the go forward from the opposition takes top fitness and conditioning.

Being alert and making all the little efforts in defence requires mental stamina, which is significantly helped by top fitness and conditioning.

Running our forwards one out into a narrow channel beside the ruck is absurdity and a part of R. Stewart's huge current failures in coaching our attack.

[Mickey_Raider]

Fitness is a huge part of these issues.

But another underrated element is the way in which a line-bending backline takes a massive amount of pressure off the forwards. When you have the likes of Croker or Simo or Scott starting a set making net 3m per hit up to start a set on the 15m line it means the forwards have to clock up an extra 20-30m getting back onside before putting in their shift.

On top of this the defensive momentum generated by monstering the aforementioned backs mean the forwards are on the back foot from the outset.

It is no coincidence that Papa and Sutton are the only forwards averaging 100m, and that is because they can pretty much break even despite the above factors.

So the forwards struggles aren't independent from the backline issues, IMO.

[Bennyinthewest]

So so many issues with us currently, my biggest one is the coaches apparent game plan (or lack of clear areas to hit n play from)

But i feel we over achieved due to our talented individuals. During our success I feel.l it was a sum of several things that made us score points. The things that stand out to me are

CNK chews those kick return metres straight up - this is so important as this leads to the forwards having to run less metres to get onside to do their run. Multiply that over the course of the game

The next 2 to 3 scoots (again, poor game plan but great individuals) were done by Rapana, Cotric and BJ who are all line breaking weapons, and chances were 1 of them would make a half break and get a quick play the ball (or a clean line break) so our forwards have even less distance to get back onside (again multiply that over the game vs the metres gained by Simonson n Croker) plus they got to run at a defensive line who just got onside.

OK so then we had good territory, so this is where Ricky's attack kicks in......wrong. Most of our tries were crash overs from a hodgo pass, or individual brilliance from.a number of our talented bunch. So rare was a well constructed team move were we look organised and score.


We now can't rely on those players, and we are left with the most basic game plan in rugby league that I wouldn't use in local A grade. That's on coaching, and the fact I haven't seen it change after all these poor showings is a concern.....heck just copy another teams plan if you have no idea (people tried copying the storm for years)

I feel we still have good forwards who.are in a ordinary and easy to stop game plan. Just imagine you are the opposition coach......and you have to come up with a plan to slow down the raiders.....it's not hard is it

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[The Nickman]

Repeated heavy contact takes top fitness and conditioning.

Consistently good linespeed throughout a match to help negate the go forward from the opposition takes top fitness and conditioning.

Being alert and making all the little efforts in defence requires mental stamina, which is significantly helped by top fitness and conditioning.

Running our forwards one out into a narrow channel beside the ruck is absurdity and a part of R. Stewart's huge current failures in coaching our attack.

R. Stewart?? No no, too obvious... Rocky S

[CanberraJonno]

I was under the impression that we have a forward pack, that is always working and never slack?

[GreenMachine]

Our forwards are not fit for purpose with the current version of the game...but this also extends to the team as a whole.

The one out "rucking" and scrap and wrestle to get into the grind days are over...you will be penalised with repeated sets against you and then its a snowball effect where your working twice / three times as hard as your opponent for greater periods in the game.

The "work" really starts with the back 3...They MUST be able to promote the ball from the back and create less of a load for the forwards to get back to. That means positioning to catch the ball on the full, tackle breaking and then enough speed and power to bring the ball back up as far as possible.

The forwards need to promote the ball or create enough questions in attack so they are not caught (smashed) one out rucking...

We need more ball playing as well as better structures (repeated efforts with decoy runners) to move the ball to an attacking threat out wide..

Personnel changes (both team and coaching) are required as well as an appreciation that what worked in 2019 is not going to work now...

The work is there to do and I get the impression the club is aware of it based on comments the coach has made in the many post game pressers...

[pickles]

I agree. It's hard for the backline to get creative if we're not making the yards and creating that platform for them to shine.

I, for one, gets sick of seeing our forwards running back behind the ruck and straight into the marker defence.

It's a game plan that seems to work against us - oppositions seem to always exploit our space behind the ruck.

So, is it that our forwards are too slow to exploit that space in attack? Or is our marker defence so bad that oppositions make so much yardage up our middle? Or is it both?




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It's a game plan that only works when you already have momentum. Against a team with a set line that is rushing up it is never going to work. If the defensive line is retreating and only one tackler gets to marker there is plenty of space behind the ruck and that is what other teams are exploiting on us.

We must be the worst team in the comp at getting numbers into a tackle, holding a player up and then ensuring that our defenders make it back to marker. Even the Dogs did it to us much better than we gave it back. Let that sink in!

[Coastalraider]

Our forwards are not fit for purpose with the current version of the game...but this also extends to the team as a whole.

The one out "rucking" and scrap and wrestle to get into the grind days are over...you will be penalised with repeated sets against you and then its a snowball effect where your working twice / three times as hard as your opponent for greater periods in the game.

The "work" really starts with the back 3...They MUST be able to promote the ball from the back and create less of a load for the forwards to get back to. That means positioning to catch the ball on the full, tackle breaking and then enough speed and power to bring the ball back up as far as possible.

The forwards need to promote the ball or create enough questions in attack so they are not caught (smashed) one out rucking...

We need more ball playing as well as better structures (repeated efforts with decoy runners) to move the ball to an attacking threat out wide..

Personnel changes (both team and coaching) are required as well as an appreciation that what worked in 2019 is not going to work now...

The work is there to do and I get the impression the club is aware of it based on comments the coach has made in the many post game pressers...

Agree on all fronts - Ricky takes a long time to change direction but he has done it before switching from the ad lib attacking based gameplay of 2016-18, and switching full defence mode from 2019.

[pickles]

The yards we are getting from our back 5 in yardage sets clearly aren't helping the situation and we definitely don't have a devastating runner like BJ in that group at the moment. Our forwards also don't seem to be running that hard. They seem willing to amble up and take the tackle rather than trying to run through the line and it definitely doesn't help that our best forward has had his worst season in a long time.

I honestly don't buy that it is all fitness related. It seems like the easy thing to look at when we are losing the second half of every game but to me it looks more mental, like the willingness to push harder isn't there. This would also explain the defensive issues where teams that defend well throw 100% into every play. At the moment we seem to be throwing about 40% in tops.

It would be interesting to see how this changed if we could string a couple of wins together and the team managed to build a bit of confidence instead of playing like they've been hitting the fun snorkel in the sheds before every game!

[The Nickman]

Our forwards are not fit for purpose with the current version of the game...but this also extends to the team as a whole.

The one out "rucking" and scrap and wrestle to get into the grind days are over...you will be penalised with repeated sets against you and then its a snowball effect where your working twice / three times as hard as your opponent for greater periods in the game.

The "work" really starts with the back 3...They MUST be able to promote the ball from the back and create less of a load for the forwards to get back to. That means positioning to catch the ball on the full, tackle breaking and then enough speed and power to bring the ball back up as far as possible.

The forwards need to promote the ball or create enough questions in attack so they are not caught (smashed) one out rucking...

We need more ball playing as well as better structures (repeated efforts with decoy runners) to move the ball to an attacking threat out wide..

Personnel changes (both team and coaching) are required as well as an appreciation that what worked in 2019 is not going to work now...

The work is there to do and I get the impression the club is aware of it based on comments the coach has made in the many post game pressers...

Agree on all fronts - Ricky takes a long time to change direction but he has done it before switching from the ad lib attacking based gameplay of 2016-18, and switching full defence mode from 2019.

More to do with personnel than "changing tack" IMO.

[afgtnk]

Our forwards also don't seem to be running that hard.

Fitness.

They seem willing to amble up and take the tackle rather than trying to run through the line and it definitely doesn't help that our best forward has had his worst season in a long time.

Fitness.

I honestly don't buy that it is all fitness related. It seems like the easy thing to look at when we are losing the second half of every game but to me it looks more mental, like the willingness to push harder isn't there.

I don't buy for a second that this is mental. This is a highly experienced, battled hardened squad of ~25 professional athletes, still containing plenty of rep or near rep talent, coached by one of the most experienced coaches in the game, who are collectively capitulating in the same period almost every week.

It cannot be clearer to the eye that we do not have the same level of physical exertion once that period comes about.

This would also explain the defensive issues where teams that defend well throw 100% into every play. At the moment we seem to be throwing about 40% in tops.

Mate.... that's fitness.

[The Nickman]

So if it's not the reasons pick raised, why do YOU think we're fading out of games, afaghfgjkflyglth??

[afgtnk]

Fitness.

[Coastalraider]

More to do with personnel than "changing tack" IMO.

No dice...

If you think a radical overhaul of preseason where they focused entirely on defensive structure was due to 'personnel', then Ive got some prime swampland to sell you chief.

[Seiffert82]

Yep, on the whole they have been terrible for all those things outlined.

As has been pointed out, our gameplan for years has been based on our back 3 getting our sets rolling into decent field position, so our gun forwards could cash in when we are in the attacking 30. As soon as guys like Cotric and CNK were gone, and Rapa is a yard or two slower, our forward pack has been found out big time.

They are rarely in position to take a hitup by the 4th tackle and we are regularly finishing sets barely over halfway.

[pickles]

Doesn't make sense that a battle hardened team of professional athletes with rep or near rep talent would be unfit, even if they are capitulating at similar points in the game. Although I would disagree on this point. I think that we were previously capitulating in the second half of games but over the last month or so it seems to have got earlier and earlier in the game. To me that smacks of a lack of resilience and willingness to roll up the sleeves when under pressure rather than not having the ability to do so.

You see it in the NRL all the time, a team looks flat and beaten and a try against the run of play and they are running and tackling hard again. Clearly not the physical ability that was lacking.

One of the big differences this season has been the loss of Bateman, whatever you think about him he had the desire to win and the ability to demand that in others in a way that I don't think anyone in our current squad does. Other than Whitehead none of the other senior players in the team have been on the field consistently and when they have been they've been below par so that could also be a contributing factor.

[The Nickman]

Mate... that's fitness.

[afgtnk]

And conditioning.

[The Nickman]

And conditioning.

[pickles]

Cool, so a few beep tests for the squad and everything will be back on track!

[pickles]

Based on the fact that clearly fitness and conditioning are the only issues with the squad I want to see the Raiders make a hard play for David Goggins to join the club in a strength and conditioning role as soon as possible.

[The Nickman]

Based on the fact that clearly fitness and conditioning are the only issues with the squad I want to see the Raiders make a hard play for David Goggins to join the club in a strength and conditioning role as soon as possible.

Fitness and CNK.

Get Duffty on board and a better fitness coach and we'll go all the way to the top in 2022!!

[afgtnk]

Doesn't make sense that a battle hardened team of professional athletes with rep or near rep talent would be unfit, even if they are capitulating at similar points in the game.

I think it does make sense when it seems to be all of them. If fitness weren't a systemic issue, then you'd see in only a smattering of players, who'd be standing out like dogs balls. This could easily be a case of the person or people in charge of running our off-season programs miscalculating and misjudging the requirements for the season ahead.

Although I would disagree on this point. I think that we were previously capitulating in the second half of games but over the last month or so it seems to have got earlier and earlier in the game. To me that smacks of a lack of resilience and willingness to roll up the sleeves when under pressure rather than not having the ability to do so.

You see it in the NRL all the time, a team looks flat and beaten and a try against the run of play and they are running and tackling hard again. Clearly not the physical ability that was lacking.

Can't recall that happening to us once. Once we're gone we're in free fall basically. There's no second wind.

One of the big differences this season has been the loss of Bateman, whatever you think about him he had the desire to win and the ability to demand that in others in a way that I don't think anyone in our current squad does. Other than Whitehead none of the other senior players in the team have been on the field consistently and when they have been they've been below par so that could also be a contributing factor.

There's nothing to me that suggests any single player can make a discernible difference for us right now. No matter who's coming in or out of the side, it's seemingly the same. We were 5th when John Bateman returned to the side last year, and we ended up in the same position with him.

You can demand to win all you want, but if you're not fit enough to complete your job relative to the opposition, especially under the changing nature of the game, then you're not going to get very far. I'm not saying this is the only issue. It is the biggest one though that has led to our steep decline.

[The Nickman]

Fitness.

[pickles]

There's a pretty solid body of evidence linking mental fatigue with reduced physical performance of over 15%. In an NRL game that is easily the difference between winning and losing. But yeah, fitness and conditioning.

[afgtnk]

Ah..... fitness and conditioning affect your mental state. Significantly. Your ability to make good decisions, be sharp, be aware, react, make repeat efforts. All of them. Clubs generally put heavy emphasis on training to improve these exact things.

[GreenMachine]

The team is certainly unfit, however we also have the wrong types of players in order to control momentum under these new rules.

Too many similar big body types in the forward rotation (which would have worked in 2019) but not now..
Not enough mobility and leg speed to consistently drive the speed of the defensive line or attack with any threat...

Now while some players have outperformed our expectations this season (for example Sutton) it has come at a cost to the team's performance when Ricky has insisted that the 8, 10 and 13 be the same in terms of body type and output...

When you combine big boppers + repeated sets against you you get rapid fatigue, which is why were seeing second half meltdowns instead of first half blow outs...

Then there is the mental drain and how we seemingly end up with ground hog day the minute we skip to a lead and have the opposition mount any form of comeback...We've seen this with sports teams in the past...aside from Hodgo (who has had his own issues) we don't seem to have that personality who can snap the team's mindset back to where it should be when were leading, but seeing the opposing team resist and fightback.

On top of Dufty, I'd really like to see us recruit/promote an agile 13 who can ball play and an impact backline player to cover wing / centre..
Savage and hopefully CNK should have first crack at the other wing and centre spots.

I'd also like to see Sutton being used to spell Papali rather than play together in the middle...

1. Dufty
2. Savage
3. CNK
4. HSS/Kris/Timoko
5. New recruit - think 24-26 y/old type power player (say like Mamalo)
6. Wighton
7. Schneider or experienced halfback recruit
8. Papali
9. Starling
10. Tapine
11. CHN
12. Whitehead
13. New player (promote or recruit agile forward with offload)

14. Sutton
15. Young
16. Agile forward with offload
17. Schneider (Utility) / Agile forward

[afgtnk]

I'm hoping Trey Mooney can be brought into first grade next year. Quick and agile, with plenty of power and skill. He may not be ready to play big minutes at that stage of his development, but I think he's a long term solution available in-house for the #13.

[GreenMachine]

I'm hoping Trey Mooney can be brought into first grade next year. Quick and agile, with plenty of power and skill. He may not be ready to play big minutes at that stage of his development, but I think he's a long term solution available in-house for the #13.

That's exactly the type of thinking the club should have - if we have guy's in the youth / lower ranks, start giving them some NRL games this season and get a feel for whether we have the cattle to work with or whether we recruit from the outside...

What is happening at the moment, is Ricky seems to promote experienced players (Sia / Lui / James) when these guy's are not the solution the way forward. Not together....not based on what we have seen. The combinations don't work due to their physical abilities...

I think Ricky see's this (made a couple of comments in the post game pressers about it) but won't give up this season yet (which is understandable given he is the coach and his neck is on the line)...

PVL changed the fabric of the game when he altered the rules and this disadvantaged clubs like ours (which added players like James) which thrived on slower play through the ruck...notwithstanding we did ourselves no favours by recruiting nobody in the backline when it was obvious we were weaker in attack in 2020 when compared to 2019...

[greeneyed]

Moderator request: Can we please cut the unnecessary quoting... thanks.

[woppadingo]

fidness

[spotto79]

The team is certainly unfit, however we also have the wrong types of players in order to control momentum under these new rules.

Too many similar big body types in the forward rotation (which would have worked in 2019) but not now..
Not enough mobility and leg speed to consistently drive the speed of the defensive line or attack with any threat...

Now while some players have outperformed our expectations this season (for example Sutton) it has come at a cost to the team's performance when Ricky has insisted that the 8, 10 and 13 be the same in terms of body type and output...

When you combine big boppers + repeated sets against you you get rapid fatigue, which is why were seeing second half meltdowns instead of first half blow outs...

Then there is the mental drain and how we seemingly end up with ground hog day the minute we skip to a lead and have the opposition mount any form of comeback...We've seen this with sports teams in the past...aside from Hodgo (who has had his own issues) we don't seem to have that personality who can snap the team's mindset back to where it should be when were leading, but seeing the opposing team resist and fightback.

On top of Dufty, I'd really like to see us recruit/promote an agile 13 who can ball play and an impact backline player to cover wing / centre..
Savage and hopefully CNK should have first crack at the other wing and centre spots.

I'd also like to see Sutton being used to spell Papali rather than play together in the middle...

1. Dufty
2. Savage
3. CNK
4. HSS/Kris/Timoko
5. New recruit - think 24-26 y/old type power player (say like Mamalo)
6. Wighton
7. Schneider or experienced halfback recruit
8. Papali
9. Starling
10. Tapine
11. CHN
12. Whitehead
13. New player (promote or recruit agile forward with offload)

14. Sutton
15. Young
16. Agile forward with offload
17. Schneider (Utility) / Agile forward

The agile 13 is wighton. Get Shaun Johnson to 6 to support Schneiders growth. Yeo just carved up again as the link man from ruck to halves. He IS the player that gives Cleary time or himself sets up a structural hit up or run. That is Jack’s role to own. He is wasted on one edge. Time to start something new.


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