History repeating as Canberra Raiders facing another painful rebuild

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-TW-
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Re: History repeating as Canberra Raiders facing another painful rebuild

Post by -TW- »

I don't think pegging the ball around is really a structure.

We scored points off the back of second phase play and two guys who were in the form of their lives

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Botman
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Re: History repeating as Canberra Raiders facing another painful rebuild

Post by Botman »

I have never under-rated or under estimated what CNK gives us or dismissed his contribution.
My feelings on this are extremely well documented, the recipts are in my posting history outlining all the elements of his game i love, and stating i think he's a top 5 player as a fullback in all other areas but ball playing.
I have never downplayed his abilities as a defensive fullback who is elite in every area of fullback play bar the one skill that in 2021, matters most.

I just fundimentally dont think that style of fullback works when we're not absolutely loaded all over the edges and backline. I'm also on record as saying whilst i support the signing of Dufty, i understand its a huge risk and one that might not pay off. There is a very real chance this is flames out. Im not denying that at all
You cant paint my views on CNK to suit YOUR narrative however which way you like. It doesnt match reality. I've got those receipts

Also, that we need better ball playing out of the fullback spot is not a narrative... there is no story being spun here. The club has evaluated the situation and evidently decided they're looking for an upgrade at fullback, they went in for Hynes a little bit, and now are going to sign Dufty. This is not some made up story, it is real and it's obviously a priority for the club. That's not narrative or story being spun... that's reality.
Last edited by Botman on June 8, 2021, 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
benda
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Re: History repeating as Canberra Raiders facing another painful rebuild

Post by benda »

gangrenous wrote: June 8, 2021, 8:56 pm
benda wrote:Look at our games and more importantly the tries we score. CNK is a worker or a player without any xfactor.
I agree its hurt us, and i would also suggest a LOT, but even before him going down we had trouble scoring points. Our peak this season was matching penrith for 25 to 30 minutes.
Tigers beat themselves.. cronulla we probably should have lost... Warriors understandable... Titans worse than us in attack and then we went downhill.
The thing you’re overlooking is we were managing to win those games. Sure as **** aren’t doing that now.

I similarly have made my position on CNK very clear and I think the point above is a good one. He’s getting crucified for not being a perfect player whilst making huge contributions and impact on games. Meanwhile players in other positions get a pass playing like utter numptys.

Maybe a combo of Dufty and CNK in the one team can work if CNK is open to that. But the impact on CNK’s ability to help the Raiders win football games continues to be criminally underrated (admittedly 50% due to two posters ad nauseum).
Crucifying CNK is silly and that wasnt my intension. Guy is a very good player and his best footy is in front of him. But IMO Dufty for where we are currently at right now gives us more of what we neee.

Id absolutley keep CNK at the club if possible and i think at centre he would be terrific.

Anyway this is all hypothetical. Dufty hasnt signed yet. If its true Brisbane are chasing him means we are no hope of getting him.
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Re: History repeating as Canberra Raiders facing another painful rebuild

Post by Billy Walker »

The Nickman wrote: June 8, 2021, 8:59 pm
gangrenous wrote:
benda wrote:Look at our games and more importantly the tries we score. CNK is a worker or a player without any xfactor.
I agree its hurt us, and i would also suggest a LOT, but even before him going down we had trouble scoring points. Our peak this season was matching penrith for 25 to 30 minutes.
Tigers beat themselves.. cronulla we probably should have lost... Warriors understandable... Titans worse than us in attack and then we went downhill.
The thing you’re overlooking is we were managing to win those games. Sure as **** aren’t doing that now.

I similarly have made my position on CNK very clear and I think the point above is a good one. He’s getting crucified for not being a perfect player whilst making huge contributions and impact on games. Meanwhile players in other positions get a pass playing like utter numptys.

Maybe a combo of Dufty and CNK in the one team can work if CNK is open to that. But the impact on CNK’s ability to help the Raiders win football games continues to be criminally underrated (admittedly 50% due to two posters ad nauseum).
Exactly, we were winning games with CNK at the back, we were beating Penrith and everyone was talking up our premiership chances when he got knocked the **** out

We’ve looked like utter dog**** ever since!

And now the narrative is that the guy isn’t good enough and we should replace him with a dragons reject? Fair go, Greenhouse. Fair go indeed.
I’m have some doubts and concerns about CNK but accept your post is hard to argue against. The teams has gone from being in it up to their eyeballs with Penrith to not able to beat an egg with a direct correlation to CNKs injury.

I’m very much on the fence here - good arguments both ways around CNK. I’d want a better upgrade than Dufty.
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Re: History repeating as Canberra Raiders facing another painful rebuild

Post by BadnMean »

Botman wrote: June 8, 2021, 9:21 pm I have never under-rated or under estimated what CNK gives us or dismissed his contribution.
My feelings on this are extremely well documented, the recipts are in my posting history outlining all the elements of his game i love, and stating i think he's a top 5 player as a fullback in all other areas but ball playing.
I have never downplayed his abilities as a defensive fullback who is elite in every area of fullback play bar the one skill that in 2021, matters most.

I just fundimentally dont think that style of fullback works when we're not absolutely loaded all over the edges and backline. I'm also on record as saying whilst i support the signing of Dufty, i understand its a huge risk and one that might not pay off. There is a very real chance this is flames out. Im not denying that at all
You cant paint my views on CNK to suit YOUR narrative however which way you like. It doesnt match reality. I've got those receipts

Also, that we need better ball playing out of the fullback spot is not a narrative... there is no story being spun here. The club has evaluated the situation and evidently decided they're looking for an upgrade at fullback, they went in for Hynes a little bit, and now are going to sign Dufty. This is not some made up story, it is real and it's obviously a priority for the club. That's not narrative or story being spun... that's reality.
Agree.

I also can't believe people are still pinning hopes on 15 mins of a game vs Penrith.

I've seen Penrith play, they had't hit 2nd gear yet in that game. It ties back in to the issue we have recognised since last year- our style of play leaves a very, very small pathway to victory vs teams with strike like Penrif, Storm, Rorters etc. We hope to get in a grind. Hope our forwards get over theirs and that we can win a low scoring match, maybe, if we keep them off their game all night.

Whereas any one of those teams can easily blow us away by putting 3 tries on in 15 mins when they get a run of possession and 6 agains and leave us in the dust. So they can win the grind if they play well, they can also beat us at any other stage if they hit their stride while we simply cannot compete at the type of game they CAN play AND which the new rules favour.

Why is the 15 mins vs Penrith more instructive than the 15 mins in the prelim vs Melbourne when they blew us away? Or any other time we've looked a slow, toothless, out dated team? Why is 15 mins in which we managed to score a single try held up as some paragon of Raiders play. One try. Because I can tell you a 1 try lead isn't scaring anyone these days. Because good teams know they can score 3 in 11 minutes (as they did) as soon as they break the game. As Melbourne did. As those teams do every week. While we struggle to put up 3 tries in a whole game.

It was the first 15 mins of a match, in which most teams are usually competitive, before the quality team asserts itself.
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Re: History repeating as Canberra Raiders facing another painful rebuild

Post by Coastalraider »

The Nickman wrote: June 8, 2021, 8:59 pm
gangrenous wrote:
benda wrote:Look at our games and more importantly the tries we score. CNK is a worker or a player without any xfactor.
I agree its hurt us, and i would also suggest a LOT, but even before him going down we had trouble scoring points. Our peak this season was matching penrith for 25 to 30 minutes.
Tigers beat themselves.. cronulla we probably should have lost... Warriors understandable... Titans worse than us in attack and then we went downhill.
The thing you’re overlooking is we were managing to win those games. Sure as **** aren’t doing that now.

I similarly have made my position on CNK very clear and I think the point above is a good one. He’s getting crucified for not being a perfect player whilst making huge contributions and impact on games. Meanwhile players in other positions get a pass playing like utter numptys.

Maybe a combo of Dufty and CNK in the one team can work if CNK is open to that. But the impact on CNK’s ability to help the Raiders win football games continues to be criminally underrated (admittedly 50% due to two posters ad nauseum).
Exactly, we were winning games with CNK at the back, we were beating Penrith and everyone was talking up our premiership chances when he got knocked the **** out

We’ve looked like utter dog**** ever since!

And now the narrative is that the guy isn’t good enough and we should replace him with a dragons reject? Fair go, Greenhouse. Fair go indeed.
Fullback v fullback 2019 ball, I absolutely see your point. But the game is trending towards high scoring teams having a distinct edge over grinding teams.

But the biggest factor for me here is that as it stands in 2022 we will be without Williams and likely Hodgo. Starling is a service hooker, not a point scoring one, which is ruined when he is feeding creative players. We don’t know who our 7 is, Jack is good for some points but CNK isn’t. In that lineup, and with the halves market looking grim, I think it’s 100% the right move to bring in someone who can score points, and set our backs up better than Jack, and do it on both sides of the field, which is something CNK has been unable to do. With a spine of starling, Sammy, Jack and CNK, I can’t see us scoring enough points to win regularly, regardless of what our defence does.
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Re: History repeating as Canberra Raiders facing another painful rebuild

Post by gerg »

It's very interesting reading all this talk in the media about a rebuild, particularly the focus on Ricky cleaning up the playing roster. It's all a little bit convenient for my liking.

How about some 'heat' on the coaching at the club? It seems, as always, that the fanbase are the only ones willing to question it. Many of us here can see (and have asked why) he got it all wrong.

I've noted my frustration about him being on the NRL rules or innovation committee... how can you be at the forefront of where the game is heading and get it so wrong? Knowing where the game is headed before most other coaches, how can your team be so underdone? As one of the more experienced coaches in the game, how can you get your man management so wrong? How can you seemingly not have a single **** set play that works? How can a team you've coached for over 5 years not have any structure or style.

It is poor coaching and it makes it really difficult to actually have a decent rebuild. You watch Roosters and Storm. They clearly drill how they play a million times a week. So when players are injured or out on rep duty a young bloke can just slot straight into the system with ease. He isn't left floundering in a "system" with no system. This is why those teams never rebuild, they just keep chugging along. Instead we will churn through some decent quality players and we may have another crack at it in 3 years. It's **** Bull, is what it is.
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Re: History repeating as Canberra Raiders facing another painful rebuild

Post by Rickmando »

gergreg wrote: June 9, 2021, 8:14 am It's very interesting reading all this talk in the media about a rebuild, particularly the focus on Ricky cleaning up the playing roster. It's all a little bit convenient for my liking.

How about some 'heat' on the coaching at the club? It seems, as always, that the fanbase are the only ones willing to question it. Many of us here can see (and have asked why) he got it all wrong.

I've noted my frustration about him being on the NRL rules or innovation committee... how can you be at the forefront of where the game is heading and get it so wrong? Knowing where the game is headed before most other coaches, how can your team be so underdone? As one of the more experienced coaches in the game, how can you get your man management so wrong? How can you seemingly not have a single **** set play that works? How can a team you've coached for over 5 years not have any structure or style.

It is poor coaching and it makes it really difficult to actually have a decent rebuild. You watch Roosters and Storm. They clearly drill how they play a million times a week. So when players are injured or out on rep duty a young bloke can just slot straight into the system with ease. He isn't left floundering in a "system" with no system. This is why those teams never rebuild, they just keep chugging along. Instead we will churn through some decent quality players and we may have another crack at it in 3 years. It's **** Bull, is what it is.
You’ve nailed it gerg - all fair questions. I’ve been beating this drum for years! How hard would it be for any of the media or “supposed expert” TV pundits to ask even a single question out of the very reasonable ones you have posted above??? Rick = protected species
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Re: History repeating as Canberra Raiders facing another painful rebuild

Post by Raiders666 »

To be fair Rickmando you were beating this drum the same year we almost won the GF
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Re: History repeating as Canberra Raiders facing another painful rebuild

Post by Rickmando »

Billy Walker wrote: June 9, 2021, 12:44 am
The Nickman wrote: June 8, 2021, 8:59 pm
gangrenous wrote:
benda wrote:Look at our games and more importantly the tries we score. CNK is a worker or a player without any xfactor.
I agree its hurt us, and i would also suggest a LOT, but even before him going down we had trouble scoring points. Our peak this season was matching penrith for 25 to 30 minutes.
Tigers beat themselves.. cronulla we probably should have lost... Warriors understandable... Titans worse than us in attack and then we went downhill.
The thing you’re overlooking is we were managing to win those games. Sure as **** aren’t doing that now.

I similarly have made my position on CNK very clear and I think the point above is a good one. He’s getting crucified for not being a perfect player whilst making huge contributions and impact on games. Meanwhile players in other positions get a pass playing like utter numptys.

Maybe a combo of Dufty and CNK in the one team can work if CNK is open to that. But the impact on CNK’s ability to help the Raiders win football games continues to be criminally underrated (admittedly 50% due to two posters ad nauseum).
Exactly, we were winning games with CNK at the back, we were beating Penrith and everyone was talking up our premiership chances when he got knocked the **** out

We’ve looked like utter dog**** ever since!

And now the narrative is that the guy isn’t good enough and we should replace him with a dragons reject? Fair go, Greenhouse. Fair go indeed.
I’m have some doubts and concerns about CNK but accept your post is hard to argue against. The teams has gone from being in it up to their eyeballs with Penrith to not able to beat an egg with a direct correlation to CNKs injury.

I’m very much on the fence here - good arguments both ways around CNK. I’d want a better upgrade than Dufty.
I don’t buy into the sentiment that up until the exact point of CNK’s injury we were serious contenders. Our record was very flattering. We had hardly played more than 30-40mins of decent football out of the first 320mins of the season! We were lipstick on a pig.

We were competitive in the early stages against Penrith (who are the benchmark) but let’s not kid ourselves that anything we’ve seen before or since that game in 2021 is anywhere equivalent to that benchmark in terms of: fitness, structure, strategy, game management, attacking prowess or defensive resilience - especially under the new rules this season.

In regards to CNK - he’s an absolute must keep for a club in a rebuild. He’s an effort player who lifts those around him, he’s a great club man on and off the field, and he has the skill set to play NRL first grade at either wing or centre (just not fullback). He’s exactly the type of “glue guy” we are going to need for morale around the club, if the next couple of season go the way we think they’re going to go.
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Re: History repeating as Canberra Raiders facing another painful rebuild

Post by Rickmando »

Raiders666 wrote: June 9, 2021, 9:04 am To be fair Rickmando you were beating this drum the same year we almost won the GF
And I wasn’t necessarily wrong! We had a wonderful run that year and it was great fun, but it’s undeniable it was off the back of individual player brilliance rather than any discernible difference making from Rick.

I believed that our SuperCoach would get out coached in the biggest moments - it didn’t actually happen until the GF but I believe he got it wrong with the grind-ball, when we needed points we looked to have no clue how to score them.
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Re: History repeating as Canberra Raiders facing another painful rebuild

Post by Botman »

In fairness to rick... if BJ passes the footy and Papalii gets a clean catch on that ball one on one with Cronk, we're potentially at 18 points and that is probably enough to have won the premiership.

I dont think he got out coached at all that game. The game was tight the entire way and turned on those 2 plays and the match winning play by them. We didn't execute quite at the right moment, they did. I dont know that you can put any of those situations down to Stuart as a coach. Though i generally agree with the premise of what you're saying about our style
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Re: History repeating as Canberra Raiders facing another painful rebuild

Post by Seiffert82 »

Raiders666 wrote: June 9, 2021, 9:04 am To be fair Rickmando you were beating this drum the same year we almost won the GF
:lol:
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Re: History repeating as Canberra Raiders facing another painful rebuild

Post by Seiffert82 »

Stuart's biggest failures this year has been sticking with a backline that is old and slow, not having his forwards physically prepared and his abominable use of the bench.

Papalii's and Tapine's wife have pointed out the bench thing. Pity they haven't lectured their husbands on getting fit.

Scott, Croker and Rapana have forced his hands on renewing the backline.

So yeah, some of this blame absolutely falls at the feet of the coach.
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Re: History repeating as Canberra Raiders facing another painful rebuild

Post by The Nickman »

gergreg wrote: June 9, 2021, 8:14 am It's very interesting reading all this talk in the media about a rebuild, particularly the focus on Ricky cleaning up the playing roster. It's all a little bit convenient for my liking.

How about some 'heat' on the coaching at the club? It seems, as always, that the fanbase are the only ones willing to question it. Many of us here can see (and have asked why) he got it all wrong.

I've noted my frustration about him being on the NRL rules or innovation committee... how can you be at the forefront of where the game is heading and get it so wrong? Knowing where the game is headed before most other coaches, how can your team be so underdone? As one of the more experienced coaches in the game, how can you get your man management so wrong? How can you seemingly not have a single **** set play that works? How can a team you've coached for over 5 years not have any structure or style.

It is poor coaching and it makes it really difficult to actually have a decent rebuild. You watch Roosters and Storm. They clearly drill how they play a million times a week. So when players are injured or out on rep duty a young bloke can just slot straight into the system with ease. He isn't left floundering in a "system" with no system. This is why those teams never rebuild, they just keep chugging along. Instead we will churn through some decent quality players and we may have another crack at it in 3 years. It's **** Bull, is what it is.
This is such a good post, probably the best one I've seen in months. 100% agree with everything you've said here, gerg.

What an absolute mess, and it lays largely on the coach and CEO's heads here. How do they continue to let it completely fall apart like it does and still have jobs??
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Re: History repeating as Canberra Raiders facing another painful rebuild

Post by Rickmando »

Botman wrote: June 9, 2021, 9:20 am In fairness to rick... if BJ passes the footy and Papalii gets a clean catch on that ball one on one with Cronk, we're potentially at 18 points and that is probably enough to have won the premiership.

I dont think he got out coached at all that game. The game was tight the entire way and turned on those 2 plays and the match winning play by them. We didn't execute quite at the right moment, they did. I dont know that you can put any of those situations down to Stuart as a coach. Though i generally agree with the premise of what you're saying about our style
I’m going to argue Rick’s one dimensional game plans made us very easy to beat that year. He didn’t change a thing through that second half of the season, in fact we only looked good when players ignored the clear directive to play grinding low-risk football. Every opposition in that finals series knew EXACTLY what we were bringing… they just couldn’t stop Bateman, Wighton,Papa, BJ (until they could).

In my book - that’s sending us in at a huge disadvantage for every crucial game, not great when it’s the HC providing that big disadvantage. It was Rick that didn’t give us our best chance to win that GF
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Re: History repeating as Canberra Raiders facing another painful rebuild

Post by The Nickman »

Rickmando wrote: June 9, 2021, 10:43 am
Botman wrote: June 9, 2021, 9:20 am In fairness to rick... if BJ passes the footy and Papalii gets a clean catch on that ball one on one with Cronk, we're potentially at 18 points and that is probably enough to have won the premiership.

I dont think he got out coached at all that game. The game was tight the entire way and turned on those 2 plays and the match winning play by them. We didn't execute quite at the right moment, they did. I dont know that you can put any of those situations down to Stuart as a coach. Though i generally agree with the premise of what you're saying about our style
I’m going to argue Rick’s one dimensional game plans made us very easy to beat that year. He didn’t change a thing through that second half of the season, in fact we only looked good when players ignored the clear directive to play grinding low-risk football. Every opposition in that finals series knew EXACTLY what we were bringing… they just couldn’t stop Bateman, Wighton,Papa, BJ (until they could).

In my book - that’s sending us in at a huge disadvantage for every crucial game, not great when it’s the HC providing that big disadvantage. It was Rick that didn’t give us our best chance to win that GF
From my understanding Rocky took over the role as attacking coach from Crawley coming into 2019. Our attack has been largely an unmitigated disaster since.
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