Canberra Raiders interest in Matt Dufty goes cold

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Re: Canberra Raiders join race for Matt Dufty

Post by Canberra Milk »

The six reasons the Dragons don’t want Matt Dufty: https://www.smh.com.au/sport/nrl/the-si ... 57zwe.html

They are a bit concerning actually 🤣 oh well, I think there's enough there to make it work
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Re: Canberra Raiders join race for Matt Dufty

Post by Ultima »

Fuifui Bradbrad wrote: June 14, 2021, 4:47 pm
The Nickman wrote:Red, you need to drop this obsession with driving players backwards, it's just strange.

I'm as strong an advocate as you are for a solid defensive unit, and was with you all throughout 2017-18 when our defence just STANK, but this whole "driving the opposition players backwards" thing that you've clung too recently, well... it's truly bizarre.
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Isn't driving players backwards what Ricky does to their careers?
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Re: Canberra Raiders join race for Matt Dufty

Post by Roger Kenworthy »

Canberra Milk wrote: June 14, 2021, 10:24 pm The six reasons the Dragons don’t want Matt Dufty: https://www.smh.com.au/sport/nrl/the-si ... 57zwe.html

They are a bit concerning actually 🤣 oh well, I think there's enough there to make it work
Interesting that CNK "the battler" is second in kick defusals.

I get the feeling we're going back to something that didn't work with Wighton here. Sacrificing a fullback who reads the game and knows how to position himself for that offensive polish. The last few years have illustrated which skill is more valuable.
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Re: Canberra Raiders join race for Matt Dufty

Post by afgtnk »

Interesting that Crichton and DWZ are third and fifth respectively too - two utterly useless fullbacks. Or the likes of Gutherson, Mitchell, and RTS being amongst the bottom.

Nothing stat really, with no context or detail.
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Re: Canberra Raiders join race for Matt Dufty

Post by Beejay »

RedRaider wrote: June 14, 2021, 10:21 pm
The Nickman wrote: June 14, 2021, 4:11 pm Red, you need to drop this obsession with driving players backwards, it's just strange.

I'm as strong an advocate as you are for a solid defensive unit, and was with you all throughout 2017-18 when our defence just STANK, but this whole "driving the opposition players backwards" thing that you've clung too recently, well... it's truly bizarre.
Happy recent Birthday Nickman. As I've said many times, we all look for different things watching Rugby League. I watch some sides apply defensive pressure on opposition sides and we don't. I watched the Raiders apply such pressure in 2019 and to a lesser extent in 2020. It was based around defensive numbers in tackles and you will not like the expression, but 'driving the ball carrier backwards' particularly early in sets. In 2021 Storm regularly do it, Panthers regularly do it, Chooks regularly do it even with all their injury. Raiders rarely.

There could be many reasons for the Raiders not using this defensive pressure play. Some will argue lack of fitness. Others coaching issues. NRL is a pressure sport and we don't seem able to apply that pressure when we don't have the ball, as we once did.

I trust you are well
Yeah with you Red.
The Panthers in the last 2 years have taken it to another level and it's been really successful. First defender holds up the player, and others follow to lift and push back. It's a very clear strategy, and is the new wrestle.
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Re: Canberra Raiders join race for Matt Dufty

Post by Roger Kenworthy »

afgtnk wrote: June 15, 2021, 4:20 am Interesting that Crichton and DWZ are third and fifth respectively too - two utterly useless fullbacks. Or the likes of Gutherson, Mitchell, and RTS being amongst the bottom.

Nothing stat really, with no context or detail.
True, DWZ is one of the worst few fullbacks in the game. I think it illustrates the strength of CNK's game though, with him at the back we're 34-18 and the past three years. Pretty clear to me the Dufty signing is a gamble and not an automatic upgrade.
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Re: Canberra Raiders join race for Matt Dufty

Post by FuiFui BradBrad »

greeneyed wrote:The Boyd Cordner retirement shouldn't free any salary cap. They said on NRL 360 tonight that they have agreed to pay out the full amount of his contract. (Of course, that won't stop the Roosters trying to have it exempted from the cap...)
Does that rep game replacement player rule include SOO?
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Re: Canberra Raiders join race for Matt Dufty

Post by BadnMean »

Roger Kenworthy wrote: June 15, 2021, 6:17 am
afgtnk wrote: June 15, 2021, 4:20 am Interesting that Crichton and DWZ are third and fifth respectively too - two utterly useless fullbacks. Or the likes of Gutherson, Mitchell, and RTS being amongst the bottom.

Nothing stat really, with no context or detail.
True, DWZ is one of the worst few fullbacks in the game. I think it illustrates the strength of CNK's game though, with him at the back we're 34-18 and the past three years. Pretty clear to me the Dufty signing is a gamble and not an automatic upgrade.
It's a gamble, but also an acknowledgement of two big factors 1) an acknowledgement of the way the game has evolved under the new rules. 2021 is a step further than 2020, as coaches and teams have adapted to it. Well some have, while others like us stood still a bit.

2) an acknowledgement that our attack is balls and to change it the coach feels he needs some more ball playing and some more speed in the backline. Fair call. Dufty does that (at the cost of some last line defence).

Ricky Stuart is dead stubborn but even he sees he needs to move in these areas. That means team changes. Even to good blokes. Not updating the squad is one of the factors in our 2017 slump repeated again in 2021 imo.

We could buy a fast winger... but still not have a FB capable of hitting him with a pass or even continuing a basic backline movement without the other team knowing if they just rush up on him, he gets sticky fingers. Dufty solves both issues.

Dufty is a risk. To carry on with our back 5 and attack the way it was is not a risk. It is known failure at this point. 2019 was 2 years and a different set of rules away, with players at different stages of their careers. CNK is not going to defend us to the 2019 title. Ever. Even less likely to do so in 2022.
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Re: Canberra Raiders join race for Matt Dufty

Post by Seiffert82 »

Funny that serious injuries and suspensions have forced Stuart's hand in completely retooling our back 5.

The jury is after more evidence on Simonsson at fullback, but the 3/4 line looks a million times better than it did at the start of the season IMO. Enthusiasm and athletic ability is something to work with at least.
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Re: Canberra Raiders join race for Matt Dufty

Post by BadnMean »

Seiffert82 wrote: June 15, 2021, 8:10 am Funny that serious injuries and suspensions have forced Stuart's hand in completely retooling our back 5.

The jury is after more evidence on Simonsson at fullback, but the 3/4 line looks a million times better than it did at the start of the season IMO. Enthusiasm and athletic ability is something to work with at least.
Simo was a very good back up FB. It may get more challenging as other teams notice what he is/isn't good at but he'll get better too. Much happier with him there than Aekins. Be interesting if he plays that well for the next month...
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Re: Canberra Raiders join race for Matt Dufty

Post by Seiffert82 »

BadnMean wrote: June 15, 2021, 8:28 am
Seiffert82 wrote: June 15, 2021, 8:10 am Funny that serious injuries and suspensions have forced Stuart's hand in completely retooling our back 5.

The jury is after more evidence on Simonsson at fullback, but the 3/4 line looks a million times better than it did at the start of the season IMO. Enthusiasm and athletic ability is something to work with at least.
Simo was a very good back up FB. It may get more challenging as other teams notice what he is/isn't good at but he'll get better too. Much happier with him there than Aekins. Be interesting if he plays that well for the next month...
Yep, I didn't expect it at all. It will be good for his confidence. I agree that the next month will be a good test for him.
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Re: Canberra Raiders join race for Matt Dufty

Post by Crash Ball »

RedRaider wrote: June 14, 2021, 3:38 pm I take your point Green Machine but we have not had CNK since he was injured in Round 5 against the Panthers.

I have been critical of our defensive efforts in post after post. We do not regularly drive the opposition ball carriers backwards. We did this for the past 2 years and this year it is missing. It has to be coaching. The good sides are driving opposition ball carriers backwards week in week out. Even at Origin level the Blues put pressure on Qld when Qld had the ball. We simply don't. It is a defensive style the whole team can get involved in. The good defensive sides praise their players for such effort. We have reverted to individual hits which under current rules is likely to see us a man down unless executed perfectly. I am looking for Team defensive effort but don't see much of it. Particularly in second halves.
Top post. Defensive contact is one of the biggest issues this year.
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Re: Canberra Raiders join race for Matt Dufty

Post by Botman »

I watch most games every weekend and which teams are consistently driving ball carriers back week in and week out?

I get using line speed and aggression to pressure with defence but driving ball carriers back consistently just isnt really a thing and hasnt been for years. Teams will muscle up and try and do that when you've got them pinned in the corner coming off their try line, sort of in that first 10-15 metre range but outside of that, it's really about getting numbers in, turtling the ball carrier, and getting him on his back with a slow peel off.
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Re: Canberra Raiders join race for Matt Dufty

Post by benda »

i have seen posts on instagram that we have pulled out on the chase for Dufty... is that correct?
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Re: Canberra Raiders join race for Matt Dufty

Post by Northern Raider »

Botman wrote: June 15, 2021, 9:29 am I watch most games every weekend and which teams are consistently driving ball carriers back week in and week out?

I get using line speed and aggression to pressure with defence but driving ball carriers back consistently just isnt really a thing and hasnt been for years. Teams will muscle up and try and do that when you've got them pinned in the corner coming off their try line, sort of in that first 10-15 metre range but outside of that, it's really about getting numbers in, turtling the ball carrier, and getting him on his back with a slow peel off.
This is true. Slowing the ruck as much as possible without giving away a restart is the key now. Hold the player up as long as possible and put them on the ground as late as possible. Teams will happily give up a few extra metres on a hit up to ensure a set defensive line.
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Re: Canberra Raiders join race for Matt Dufty

Post by Botman »

benda wrote: June 15, 2021, 9:55 am i have seen posts on instagram that we have pulled out on the chase for Dufty... is that correct?
That would bode ill for our decision makers imo.
If there were in a week ago, presumably they had done all their due diligence on his often spoken about but never firmly stated "off field issues", and they presumably watched some tape of him and understood his high variance style of play

Just as getting in on him only after last week would a bad sign, getting out of him on the back of this weeks game would be a bad sign. Your opinions on the footballer and person shouldnt swing that wildly game to game, if it does, then you havent really done the work required on him
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Re: Canberra Raiders join race for Matt Dufty

Post by Northern Raider »

Botman wrote: June 15, 2021, 10:09 am
benda wrote: June 15, 2021, 9:55 am i have seen posts on instagram that we have pulled out on the chase for Dufty... is that correct?
That would bode ill for our decision makers imo.
If there were in a week ago, presumably they had done all their due diligence on his often spoken about but never firmly stated "off field issues", and they presumably watched some tape of him and understood his high variance style of play

Just as getting in on him only after last week would a bad sign, getting out of him on the back of this weeks game would be a bad sign. Your opinions on the footballer and person shouldnt swing that wildly game to game, if it does, then you havent really done the work required on him
Do you really believe Peter Mulholland would be targeting Dufty on the back of his performance against the Broncos then pulling our after his performance against the Dogs?
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Re: Canberra Raiders join race for Matt Dufty

Post by simo »

Northern Raider wrote: June 15, 2021, 10:02 am
Botman wrote: June 15, 2021, 9:29 am I watch most games every weekend and which teams are consistently driving ball carriers back week in and week out?

I get using line speed and aggression to pressure with defence but driving ball carriers back consistently just isnt really a thing and hasnt been for years. Teams will muscle up and try and do that when you've got them pinned in the corner coming off their try line, sort of in that first 10-15 metre range but outside of that, it's really about getting numbers in, turtling the ball carrier, and getting him on his back with a slow peel off.
This is true. Slowing the ruck as much as possible without giving away a restart is the key now. Hold the player up as long as possible and put them on the ground as late as possible. Teams will happily give up a few extra metres on a hit up to ensure a set defensive line.
This is something i mentioned a while ago when people were talking post contact meters. Good clubs happily allow a player like tapine to push and struggle for 5-10 extra meters at a slow pace to set their line.
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Re: Canberra Raiders join race for Matt Dufty

Post by GreenMachine »

simo wrote: June 15, 2021, 10:24 am
Northern Raider wrote: June 15, 2021, 10:02 am
Botman wrote: June 15, 2021, 9:29 am I watch most games every weekend and which teams are consistently driving ball carriers back week in and week out?

I get using line speed and aggression to pressure with defence but driving ball carriers back consistently just isnt really a thing and hasnt been for years. Teams will muscle up and try and do that when you've got them pinned in the corner coming off their try line, sort of in that first 10-15 metre range but outside of that, it's really about getting numbers in, turtling the ball carrier, and getting him on his back with a slow peel off.
This is true. Slowing the ruck as much as possible without giving away a restart is the key now. Hold the player up as long as possible and put them on the ground as late as possible. Teams will happily give up a few extra metres on a hit up to ensure a set defensive line.
This is something i mentioned a while ago when people were talking post contact meters. Good clubs happily allow a player like tapine to push and struggle for 5-10 extra meters at a slow pace to set their line.
The key is developing a late offload while being allowed those extra metres...
That also requires support through the middle not dying on the play.
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Re: Canberra Raiders join race for Matt Dufty

Post by Crash Ball »

The point is the top teams control both giving up meters and stopping them because they have a higher defensive effort and that translates to better contact. When you have a team pinned nobody is giving up free meters to slow the ruck. The one we are severely lacking this year is not holding up the ruck.
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Re: Canberra Raiders join race for Matt Dufty

Post by Botman »

Northern Raider wrote: June 15, 2021, 10:21 am
Botman wrote: June 15, 2021, 10:09 am
benda wrote: June 15, 2021, 9:55 am i have seen posts on instagram that we have pulled out on the chase for Dufty... is that correct?
That would bode ill for our decision makers imo.
If there were in a week ago, presumably they had done all their due diligence on his often spoken about but never firmly stated "off field issues", and they presumably watched some tape of him and understood his high variance style of play

Just as getting in on him only after last week would a bad sign, getting out of him on the back of this weeks game would be a bad sign. Your opinions on the footballer and person shouldnt swing that wildly game to game, if it does, then you havent really done the work required on him
Do you really believe Peter Mulholland would be targeting Dufty on the back of his performance against the Broncos then pulling our after his performance against the Dogs?
I doubt it. That’s sort of my point. If we’re in on Dufty, the game last week or this week shouldn’t really impact that decision

But if benda is right, that would suggest to me that’s exactly what has happened because we were definitely very in on him 14 days ago
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Re: Canberra Raiders join race for Matt Dufty

Post by PerthRaider86 »

I have seen the posts too regarding us not wanting to go any further with Dufty......

Apparently the warriors have now thrown their hat into the ring
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Re: Canberra Raiders join race for Matt Dufty

Post by simo »

Botman wrote: June 15, 2021, 10:50 am
Northern Raider wrote: June 15, 2021, 10:21 am
Botman wrote: June 15, 2021, 10:09 am
benda wrote: June 15, 2021, 9:55 am i have seen posts on instagram that we have pulled out on the chase for Dufty... is that correct?
That would bode ill for our decision makers imo.
If there were in a week ago, presumably they had done all their due diligence on his often spoken about but never firmly stated "off field issues", and they presumably watched some tape of him and understood his high variance style of play

Just as getting in on him only after last week would a bad sign, getting out of him on the back of this weeks game would be a bad sign. Your opinions on the footballer and person shouldnt swing that wildly game to game, if it does, then you havent really done the work required on him
Do you really believe Peter Mulholland would be targeting Dufty on the back of his performance against the Broncos then pulling our after his performance against the Dogs?
I doubt it. That’s sort of my point. If we’re in on Dufty, the game last week or this week shouldn’t really impact that decision

But if benda is right, that would suggest to me that’s exactly what has happened because we were definitely very in on him 14 days ago
It suggests to me other clubs have shown interest and hes valuing himself out of us
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Re: Canberra Raiders join race for Matt Dufty

Post by Roger Kenworthy »

BadnMean wrote: June 15, 2021, 6:49 am
Roger Kenworthy wrote: June 15, 2021, 6:17 am
afgtnk wrote: June 15, 2021, 4:20 am Interesting that Crichton and DWZ are third and fifth respectively too - two utterly useless fullbacks. Or the likes of Gutherson, Mitchell, and RTS being amongst the bottom.

Nothing stat really, with no context or detail.
True, DWZ is one of the worst few fullbacks in the game. I think it illustrates the strength of CNK's game though, with him at the back we're 34-18 and the past three years. Pretty clear to me the Dufty signing is a gamble and not an automatic upgrade.
It's a gamble, but also an acknowledgement of two big factors 1) an acknowledgement of the way the game has evolved under the new rules. 2021 is a step further than 2020, as coaches and teams have adapted to it. Well some have, while others like us stood still a bit.

2) an acknowledgement that our attack is balls and to change it the coach feels he needs some more ball playing and some more speed in the backline. Fair call. Dufty does that (at the cost of some last line defence).

Ricky Stuart is dead stubborn but even he sees he needs to move in these areas. That means team changes. Even to good blokes. Not updating the squad is one of the factors in our 2017 slump repeated again in 2021 imo.

We could buy a fast winger... but still not have a FB capable of hitting him with a pass or even continuing a basic backline movement without the other team knowing if they just rush up on him, he gets sticky fingers. Dufty solves both issues.

Dufty is a risk. To carry on with our back 5 and attack the way it was is not a risk. It is known failure at this point. 2019 was 2 years and a different set of rules away, with players at different stages of their careers. CNK is not going to defend us to the 2019 title. Ever. Even less likely to do so in 2022.
The rules aren't drastically different from last year though, when CNK was still highly effective. It's not just last line defence but positioning to receieve kicks where he excels. We have two options who have signifcant gaps that are very hard to upskill.

Agree we need to keep freshening up our squad every year. The recruitment of James doesn't seem to have hit the spot.
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Re: Canberra Raiders join race for Matt Dufty

Post by Northern Raider »

Botman wrote: June 15, 2021, 10:50 am
Northern Raider wrote: June 15, 2021, 10:21 am
Botman wrote: June 15, 2021, 10:09 am
benda wrote: June 15, 2021, 9:55 am i have seen posts on instagram that we have pulled out on the chase for Dufty... is that correct?
That would bode ill for our decision makers imo.
If there were in a week ago, presumably they had done all their due diligence on his often spoken about but never firmly stated "off field issues", and they presumably watched some tape of him and understood his high variance style of play

Just as getting in on him only after last week would a bad sign, getting out of him on the back of this weeks game would be a bad sign. Your opinions on the footballer and person shouldnt swing that wildly game to game, if it does, then you havent really done the work required on him
Do you really believe Peter Mulholland would be targeting Dufty on the back of his performance against the Broncos then pulling our after his performance against the Dogs?
I doubt it. That’s sort of my point. If we’re in on Dufty, the game last week or this week shouldn’t really impact that decision

But if benda is right, that would suggest to me that’s exactly what has happened because we were definitely very in on him 14 days ago
....or maybe it's just he timing of the report.
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Re: Canberra Raiders join race for Matt Dufty

Post by Wiki Special »

We possibly need both but we need a 7 before a 1.
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Re: Canberra Raiders join race for Matt Dufty

Post by BadnMean »

Roger Kenworthy wrote: June 15, 2021, 11:11 am
BadnMean wrote: June 15, 2021, 6:49 am
Roger Kenworthy wrote: June 15, 2021, 6:17 am
afgtnk wrote: June 15, 2021, 4:20 am Interesting that Crichton and DWZ are third and fifth respectively too - two utterly useless fullbacks. Or the likes of Gutherson, Mitchell, and RTS being amongst the bottom.

Nothing stat really, with no context or detail.
True, DWZ is one of the worst few fullbacks in the game. I think it illustrates the strength of CNK's game though, with him at the back we're 34-18 and the past three years. Pretty clear to me the Dufty signing is a gamble and not an automatic upgrade.
It's a gamble, but also an acknowledgement of two big factors 1) an acknowledgement of the way the game has evolved under the new rules. 2021 is a step further than 2020, as coaches and teams have adapted to it. Well some have, while others like us stood still a bit.

2) an acknowledgement that our attack is balls and to change it the coach feels he needs some more ball playing and some more speed in the backline. Fair call. Dufty does that (at the cost of some last line defence).

Ricky Stuart is dead stubborn but even he sees he needs to move in these areas. That means team changes. Even to good blokes. Not updating the squad is one of the factors in our 2017 slump repeated again in 2021 imo.

We could buy a fast winger... but still not have a FB capable of hitting him with a pass or even continuing a basic backline movement without the other team knowing if they just rush up on him, he gets sticky fingers. Dufty solves both issues.

Dufty is a risk. To carry on with our back 5 and attack the way it was is not a risk. It is known failure at this point. 2019 was 2 years and a different set of rules away, with players at different stages of their careers. CNK is not going to defend us to the 2019 title. Ever. Even less likely to do so in 2022.
The rules aren't drastically different from last year though, when CNK was still highly effective. It's not just last line defence but positioning to receieve kicks where he excels. We have two options who have signifcant gaps that are very hard to upskill.

Agree we need to keep freshening up our squad every year. The recruitment of James doesn't seem to have hit the spot.
The rules haven't changed much is arguable... BUT clubs, coaches and players have had a full season to experience them, go away and plan around how to best exploit them and prepare physically and tactically for it.

The rules were sprung on everyone half baked without warning last season, so it was very much experimental. NOW we are seeing how the really can affect a game. COmbined with the more frequent sin bins too, it just all adds up to favouring speed and ball movement imo. Some whether the rules have moved a lot or not, the game has moved again. (sin bins, send off, scrum into play the ball say another significant move imo)

I'll never say CNK isn't a decebt FB. I just think he's got some hard limits in his game and they both (speed and passing) just represent and tie right in to some of our main weaknesses currently as a team. He has many good points as a FB. I just think the makeup of our team would be better with a more mobile FB who can ball play. Currently we are a slow team with a stuttering, stunted attack. And he is part of that.
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Re: Canberra Raiders join race for Matt Dufty

Post by Luffto »

I was all on board the Dufty train until yesterday.

Then the train crashed and I broke my neck
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Post by sprintman »

Apparently we’ve withdrawn. Instagram report
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Re: Canberra Raiders join race for Matt Dufty

Post by Canberra Milk »

Yep the game is very different this year to last, that should be abundantly obvious. Last year you could still grind. This year I'm not sure if you can. CNK was not effective last year, his flaws just didn't matter as much

Dufty's flaws aside, I'd be disappointed if we withdrew from Dufty and ended up with say Widdop
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GreenMachine
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Re: Canberra Raiders join race for Matt Dufty

Post by GreenMachine »

If we withdrew based on yesterdays performance then you could argue we have no idea what we want to do...

It doesn't make sense to go from touring the facilities to completely withdraw...not unless there is a problem with the $ or we have another target.
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greeneyed
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Re: Canberra Raiders join race for Matt Dufty

Post by greeneyed »

sprintman wrote: June 15, 2021, 12:58 pm Apparently we’ve withdrawn. Instagram report
Could you please link to a post on Instagram? It's required by site guidelines. Readers need to be able to assess the reliability of the source.
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SeeBee101
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Re: Canberra Raiders join race for Matt Dufty

Post by SeeBee101 »

If we changed our mind after a player has one bad game, we might as well give up now. Will be seriously disappointed if we pulled the pin now.

If anything, I think he could be a good 14 if this experiment at 1 doesn't work.
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afgtnk
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Re: Canberra Raiders join race for Matt Dufty

Post by afgtnk »

No credible, properly run club could base their recruitment of a player based on one game.
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Roger Kenworthy
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Re: Canberra Raiders join race for Matt Dufty

Post by Roger Kenworthy »

Canberra Milk wrote: June 15, 2021, 1:08 pm Yep the game is very different this year to last, that should be abundantly obvious. Last year you could still grind. This year I'm not sure if you can. CNK was not effective last year, his flaws just didn't matter as much

Dufty's flaws aside, I'd be disappointed if we withdrew from Dufty and ended up with say Widdop
The game has changed, momentum is another level from where it was last year. Yet we should have been 4-0 with CNK fit to start the year, save for a double KO and 2 metre forward pass vs the Warriors.

I just don't like the bury the head in the sand everything is going to resolve itself attitude to the Dufty signing. He's a tier 2 fullback somewhere in the middle of the road. Can you really imagine there being no interest in CNK if he went to market? It's just that we need points more than we need D at this point in time, plenty of other teams in the opposite position.
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