afgtnk wrote: ↑June 2, 2021, 9:52 am
Problem is most of the issues we have outside recruitment and squad regeneration can really only be fixed post-season, and recruitment can really only be done now if we want to make a good fist of it by shooting at the upper levels of talent.
IMO recruitment needs to get out of the way pretty soon and we need to know exactly who we want and don't want here next season, so that the slate is wiped clean and come pre-season we hit the ground running.
That's if you take the view we are in a premiership window in 2022...which I don't subscribe to (I think the Storm and Panthers are going to be tough to beat in 2022/23 with their relatively young squads).
Personally I see this as a rebuild for 2023/24 at the earliest realistically.
Which is why I'd prioritize systems/coaching over recruitment.
Don't get me wrong, I do believe we will recruit, I just don't see the point in overpaying for players now, given the timeline we are on...
We add a good young halfback and some powerful quick wingers and some quicker (fitter) forwards, we'll start to trend in the right direction...
Once that happens, we can target a marquee type signing to add the finesse we lack...
I just think the starting point is clearing out whoever doesn't want to be here....
the good news is we are not in cap hell and will have space to make the moves....just don't get fixated on these moves having to come from the uncontracted 2022 list of players...
Yeah I think we have to be gunning for it every year here. The bones of the squad are still strong. Plenty of talent still there.
Reality is that the job required isn't actually a huge one. A few new signings, bring a few young kids through, lay off a few oldies, shake up the backroom staff, get fit again. A competent, pro-active club gets that done over the course of the next 6-9 months and comes out a force next season. We can't waste another season wallowing like this.
Obviously I'm wishing this into existence...
I just fear our track record.
Also think your earlier point regarding Dufty and the Storm is interesting.
When you compare Paps to Dufty, physically they are not much different (height / weight)....
Both have speed to burn and can support and ball play...
You could easily argue that if Dufty had landed in a more stable organisation, he'd be well on his way to being a consistent high performer....
Dufty would be a low risk gamble given his current contract situation....the question is whether Ricky is willing to make the change with CNK.
afgtnk wrote: ↑June 1, 2021, 7:25 pm
Ok so now you've missed out on this, go out and snap Dufty up while he's still available you ambitionless ****.
I'm not getting excited over either, but if in the STirm system, Dufty likely a better player than Hynes.
IMO if Dufty played for the Storm he would be made to looking as good, if not better than Papenhuyzen. May sound like a wacky call, but I'd put big money on it.
This guy has played the vast majority of his career under a horrendous coach, whose attacking structure bore an uncanny resemblance to what ours is now. His development was stunted as a result and hasn't fully completed yet, which won't take too long under the right structure with good players.
Just imagine what adding Savage, Dufty, and quality outside back could do to this side. The possibilities and opportunities that open up where they previously don't exist. Provided we fix our other outstanding issues, it's a potential game changer.
Wait just a minute here, you could say the same thing about CNK! Why would Duffty be any different under our current HORRIBLE attacking structure?
Seems to me we need a new halfback to replace George and a proper attacking coach before we worry too much about replacing a vital cog in a horribly flawed system.
afgtnk wrote: ↑June 1, 2021, 7:25 pm
Ok so now you've missed out on this, go out and snap Dufty up while he's still available you ambitionless ****.
I'm not getting excited over either, but if in the STirm system, Dufty likely a better player than Hynes.
IMO if Dufty played for the Storm he would be made to looking as good, if not better than Papenhuyzen. May sound like a wacky call, but I'd put big money on it.
This guy has played the vast majority of his career under a horrendous coach, whose attacking structure bore an uncanny resemblance to what ours is now. His development was stunted as a result and hasn't fully completed yet, which won't take too long under the right structure with good players.
Just imagine what adding Savage, Dufty, and quality outside back could do to this side. The possibilities and opportunities that open up where they previously don't exist. Provided we fix our other outstanding issues, it's a potential game changer.
Wait just a minute here, you could say the same thing about CNK! Why would Duffty be any different under our current HORRIBLE attacking structure?
Seems to me we need a new halfback to replace George and a proper attacking coach before we worry too much about replacing a vital cog in a horribly flawed system.
Because apart from the facet of his fullback game that needs structure to flourish (ball playing), he's also a huge running threat by himself and a support player.
Two things that don't need structure for him to add and two things CNK doesn't bring.
I disagree. I think if we'd kept Crawley as our attacking coach CNK would've absolutely flourished in that department.
Let's remember that CNK, Wighton, Sezer, Williams and Hodgson have all at one time or another been lambasted for "stifling" our attack in the post-Crawley, 2019-21 attacking structure.
The Nickman wrote: ↑June 2, 2021, 10:45 am
I disagree. I think if we'd kept Crawley as our attacking coach CNK would've absolutely flourished in that department.
Let's remember that CNK, Wighton, Sezer, Williams and Hodgson have all at one time or another been lambasted for "stifling" our attack in the post-Crawley, 2019-21 attacking structure.
They can't ALL be to blame.
Mick Crawley was definitely a very good attacking coach, but he's certainly no miracle worker. He ain't fixing the kind of problems CNK has.
What year was Crawley the attacking coach? We were rubbish in attack in 2016 too in terms of structure, we just so happened to have brilliant individual players so it didn't matter (there were many comments on this forum pointing out as much, at the time)
Canberra Milk wrote: ↑June 2, 2021, 10:57 am
What year was Crawley the attacking coach? We were rubbish in attack in 2016 too in terms of structure, we just so happened to have brilliant individual players so it didn't matter (there were many comments on this forum pointing out as much, at the time)
2015 - 2018 IIRC. Four years that we were in the top bracket for points scored.
Personally I think during that time the structure was definitely there, and strong. Options running inside and out, at pace. It allowed Jack especially to create bags for his outside, and made Hodgo flourish. What we didn't have was halves with the ability to fullly capitalise on it, which could let us down against stronger opposition.
One thing you get at the Raiders is freedom to kind of play how you want. That's why ad lib players flourished here like Leipana, Bateman, Milford, Austin etc... even Hodgson. That could be an unintended benefit of having such a poor actual structure
EJ wrote: ↑June 2, 2021, 11:00 am
Dufty as good as Paps if he were at the Storm. That'll do me
Sent from my SM-G986B using Tapatalk
We’ll never know the answer to this but both played junior rep footy (Paps with the Kangaroos and Dufty with NSW)…
Both around the same size physically and rely on speed and support play…
The Tigers overlooked Paps as junior and let him join the Storm….where he obviously joined a much more stable and winning culture…
I don’t see a lot of differences in their stats (metres / missed tackles / passes / runs / tries per game) when you consider who they are playing for..
Matt is a few years older…under the tutelage of Bellyache and the Storm you would almost guarantee a better career path for Dufty than the one he has had with St merge…
Canberra Milk wrote: ↑June 2, 2021, 10:57 am
What year was Crawley the attacking coach? We were rubbish in attack in 2016 too in terms of structure, we just so happened to have brilliant individual players so it didn't matter (there were many comments on this forum pointing out as much, at the time)
2015 - 2018 IIRC. Four years that we were in the top bracket for points scored.
Personally I think during that time the structure was definitely there, and strong. Options running inside and out, at pace. It allowed Jack especially to create bags for his outside, and made Hodgo flourish. What we didn't have was halves with the ability to fullly capitalise on it, which could let us down against stronger opposition.
To quote Brandy at the time, we were "absolutely littered with attacking weapons, all over the park". That didn't hurt the cause. I recall some games where we were just garbage in attack, and Leipana or Kurt Baptiste, yes Kurt Baptiste, had to bail us out
The Nickman wrote: ↑June 2, 2021, 10:45 am
I disagree. I think if we'd kept Crawley as our attacking coach CNK would've absolutely flourished in that department.
Let's remember that CNK, Wighton, Sezer, Williams and Hodgson have all at one time or another been lambasted for "stifling" our attack in the post-Crawley, 2019-21 attacking structure.
They can't ALL be to blame.
It's a solid argument.
We have at many times blamed our personnel when we have lacked a real attacking system (like the one Mick had implemented for us when he was around)....
Ricky dropped the ball on our attacking structure / coaching for sure and certain.
Canberra Milk wrote: ↑June 2, 2021, 11:14 am
One thing you get at the Raiders is freedom to kind of play how you want. That's why ad lib players flourished here like Leipana, Bateman, Milford, Austin etc... even Hodgson. That could be an unintended benefit of having such a poor actual structure
That freedom comes at a cost when you don't have the same level of talent..
We absolutely lack an attacking plan and structure AND the weapons to either freely attack or apply the "attacking plan"...
Canberra Milk wrote: ↑June 2, 2021, 10:57 am
What year was Crawley the attacking coach? We were rubbish in attack in 2016 too in terms of structure, we just so happened to have brilliant individual players so it didn't matter (there were many comments on this forum pointing out as much, at the time)
2015 - 2018 IIRC. Four years that we were in the top bracket for points scored.
Personally I think during that time the structure was definitely there, and strong. Options running inside and out, at pace. It allowed Jack especially to create bags for his outside, and made Hodgo flourish. What we didn't have was halves with the ability to fullly capitalise on it, which could let us down against stronger opposition.
To quote Brandy at the time, we were "absolutely littered with attacking weapons, all over the park". That didn't hurt the cause. I recall some games where we were just garbage in attack, and Leipana or Kurt Baptiste, yes Kurt Baptiste, had to bail us out
A side can be garbage at times when they've got Blake Austin and Aidan Sezer as their halves. There's barely a creative bone in either of those bodies worthy of NRL level. Can't blame the structure for that.
I lost count of how many times Sezer in particular flat out could not see a player running inside him into a yawning gap at full pelt, instead throwing his hurried looking pass into the bread basket of his outside player that he was programmed to do.
Take out Leipana's brilliance, eyes up plays from Hodgson and Baptiste, Blake Austin's dummy and runs, Wighton's shuffles to Croker... and see how much attack you're left with in 2016. Hint, it won't be much. There was very little systematic, constructed attack, if any in fact
The problem is not Mick Crawley etc. The problem is Ricky, he can't coach attack
GreenMachine wrote: ↑June 1, 2021, 9:49 pm
Everyone having a good old laugh at Matt Moylan... wait until we end up signing him... you just know it’s going to happen..
I dont know who we're going to sign... we're going to have money to burn once the Williams and Hodgson situation is resolved, let alone if the Croker situaiton is also handled
and there is starting to become absolutely nothing worth spending on. The music will stop and we're going to be left holding the bag on someone like Moylan, Brooks, Milford... some other bad option who we've talked ourselves into
2022 is shaping up to be a disaster
As long as we don't overpay for those guys, it is not so bad. Get the right culture back, compete well, and keep the money in hand for when the right player/s become available/unhappy
May as well just mention the whole team then and ask how'd the attack go without them.
There was loads of systematic, constructed attack. Most came through Wighton, if you're talking about about backline movements, where we created regular overlaps.
About 40 odd tries came through the two Lees', Croker, and Wighton. That's a bit more than a shuffle.
Canberra Milk wrote: ↑June 2, 2021, 10:57 am
What year was Crawley the attacking coach? We were rubbish in attack in 2016 too in terms of structure, we just so happened to have brilliant individual players so it didn't matter (there were many comments on this forum pointing out as much, at the time)
2015 - 2018 IIRC. Four years that we were in the top bracket for points scored.
Personally I think during that time the structure was definitely there, and strong. Options running inside and out, at pace. It allowed Jack especially to create bags for his outside, and made Hodgo flourish. What we didn't have was halves with the ability to fullly capitalise on it, which could let us down against stronger opposition.
To quote Brandy at the time, we were "absolutely littered with attacking weapons, all over the park". That didn't hurt the cause. I recall some games where we were just garbage in attack, and Leipana or Kurt Baptiste, yes Kurt Baptiste, had to bail us out
A side can be garbage at times when they've got Blake Austin and Aidan Sezer as their halves. There's barely a creative bone in either of those bodies worthy of NRL level. Can't blame the structure for that.
I lost count of how many times Sezer in particular flat out could not see a player running inside him into a yawning gap at full pelt, instead throwing his hurried looking pass into the bread basket of his outside player that he was programmed to do.
I entirely agree, imagine George Williams playing under Crawley with players running inside and outside him into holes.
Canberra Milk wrote: ↑June 2, 2021, 10:57 am
What year was Crawley the attacking coach? We were rubbish in attack in 2016 too in terms of structure, we just so happened to have brilliant individual players so it didn't matter (there were many comments on this forum pointing out as much, at the time)
2015 - 2018 IIRC. Four years that we were in the top bracket for points scored.
Wasn't that also his second stint? Wasn't he also our attacking coach back when Campo and Best were running wild or was I imagining that??
Yeah we looked ok in structure in those days, Mick Crawley was obviously a big part of it, but we had an element in our attack in those days which was critical back then and has become even more critical now. But I've belabour that point enough already.
Canberra Milk wrote: ↑June 2, 2021, 10:57 am
What year was Crawley the attacking coach? We were rubbish in attack in 2016 too in terms of structure, we just so happened to have brilliant individual players so it didn't matter (there were many comments on this forum pointing out as much, at the time)
2015 - 2018 IIRC. Four years that we were in the top bracket for points scored.
Wasn't that also his second stint? Wasn't he also our attacking coach back when Campo and Best were running wild or was I imagining that??
Was here under Henry I think. Second best attack in 2008 (five points off Premiers Manly).
Canberra Milk wrote: ↑June 2, 2021, 10:57 am
What year was Crawley the attacking coach? We were rubbish in attack in 2016 too in terms of structure, we just so happened to have brilliant individual players so it didn't matter (there were many comments on this forum pointing out as much, at the time)
2015 - 2018 IIRC. Four years that we were in the top bracket for points scored.
Wasn't that also his second stint? Wasn't he also our attacking coach back when Campo and Best were running wild or was I imagining that??
Was here under Henry I think. Second best attack in 2008 (five points off Premiers Manly).
No coincidence it seems.
Yeah, I've only been really thinking about this the past week or so, but it seems blatantly obvious to me now that we need a new attacking coach/structure. What we do now just plain doesn't work and then every player gets individually blamed for it.
Oh well, agree to disagree. The "structure" of the right side was almost entirely ad lib, Austin/Whitehead/Leipana, they were fantastic to watch for that reason. The left was largely Wighton/Croker, not quite as flamboyant but still good, Croker had pace. Then Hodgson with the sleight of hand up the guts and Baptiste with the running, I can't see how it was anything but a primarily ad lib "structure".
Players running off the ball and into holes etc is also to do with confidence, chemistry with your other players to get the timings right, trust that they will feed you the right ball etc. That's what happened with the famous 2016 right side. If it was as easy as just coaching it, everyone would do it. Croker didn't need coaching to wait for the Wighton shuffle pass, it's just a chemistry they developed. Call it "structure" if you will
Canberra Milk wrote: ↑June 2, 2021, 10:57 am
What year was Crawley the attacking coach? We were rubbish in attack in 2016 too in terms of structure, we just so happened to have brilliant individual players so it didn't matter (there were many comments on this forum pointing out as much, at the time)
2015 - 2018 IIRC. Four years that we were in the top bracket for points scored.
Wasn't that also his second stint? Wasn't he also our attacking coach back when Campo and Best were running wild or was I imagining that??
Was here under Henry I think. Second best attack in 2008 (five points off Premiers Manly).
No coincidence it seems.
Yeah, I've only been really thinking about this the past week or so, but it seems blatantly obvious to me now that we need a new attacking coach/structure. What we do now just plain doesn't work and then every player gets individually blamed for it.
Only this past week?
I've been thinking about it ever since I read the words 'Ricky Stuart' and 'Raiders' attacking coach' in the same sentence.
Stuart's good at plenty of things, but coaching attack isn't one of them. In fact, he's horrendous. The side runs like Saints under Paul McGregor - going side to side, setting up slow block plays with limited variety one after another. It's boring, it's predictable, and flat out does not work.
afgtnk wrote: ↑June 2, 2021, 11:11 am
2015 - 2018 IIRC. Four years that we were in the top bracket for points scored.
Wasn't that also his second stint? Wasn't he also our attacking coach back when Campo and Best were running wild or was I imagining that??
Was here under Henry I think. Second best attack in 2008 (five points off Premiers Manly).
No coincidence it seems.
Yeah, I've only been really thinking about this the past week or so, but it seems blatantly obvious to me now that we need a new attacking coach/structure. What we do now just plain doesn't work and then every player gets individually blamed for it.
Only this past week?
I've been thinking about it ever since I read the words 'Ricky Stuart' and 'Raiders' attacking coach' in the same sentence.
Stuart's good at plenty of things, but coaching attack isn't one of them. In fact, he's horrendous. The side runs like Saints under Paul McGregor - going side to side, setting up slow block plays with limited variety one after another. It's boring, it's predictable, and flat out does not work.
Well I've acknowledged over the last few seasons that our attack has regressed since Crawley left, but I've only recently put 2 and 2 together about what a crippling issue it really is, particularly now that our defence is shot too.
I'd have to say most of the criticism pointed at Hodgo and the halves over the last two seasons is largely due to this fact.
The Nickman wrote: ↑June 2, 2021, 10:45 am
I disagree. I think if we'd kept Crawley as our attacking coach CNK would've absolutely flourished in that department.
Let's remember that CNK, Wighton, Sezer, Williams and Hodgson have all at one time or another been lambasted for "stifling" our attack in the post-Crawley, 2019-21 attacking structure.
They can't ALL be to blame.
It's all due to Don Furner.
And the fact we don't have peak BJ Leilua and Rapana making linebreaks at will.
I think people are over egging Mick Crawley’s role as attack coach.
I asked a player at a members day (as I too thought Crawley was a genius) but he said Mick was more in a support and implementation role, not the guy who designed the whole attack (my words to describe things not player X)
BJ wrote: ↑June 2, 2021, 2:12 pm
I think people are over egging Mick Crawley’s role as attack coach.
I asked a player at a members day (as I too thought Crawley was a genius) but he said Mick was more in a support and implementation role, not the guy who designed the whole attack (my words to describe things not player X)
I'd say it is more about removing Ricky from that role and having someone else take a look at it...
The consensus seems to be out attack has looked clunky since Ricky took over...
I remember when Crawley took over, i did a bit of research on him, he had an extensive career as an assistant the common theme across all his stops was consistently improved attack.
The post about it is probably somewhere on this site. From memory though it was something like 70% of the teams he was involved in year to year were top 5 in points scored.
And teams he joined saw an immediate uptick in points. Been searching around but cant seem to find it.
But i remember thinking there was too much evidence weighted for it to be a coincidence
