They might go back to teaching technique instead of wrestle, hey?
This is not rugby league
Moderator: GH Moderators
Re: This is not rugby league
It's a really interesting and important topic for the game.
In principle, I think it's the right decision. The onus will shift to defending players to not make any contact with the attacking players head. It is simple as that. And when they do, they must be penalised.
If the speed of the game is too fast, it means defenders need to be fitter and faster. If that means we won't be watching the "same" rugby league - then I think as fans we need to accept it, as that's the future of the game.
Whilst I don't necessarily agree with the way they went about it, i.e. simply starting mid season to send players to the bin for any head contact; it ultimately needed to start somewhere. And I guess it is what it is.
No doubt there are longer term repercussions if they don't address this as soon as possible.
Problem with low tackles is that it's easier to offload. As Robinson was describing on NRL 360, the hips are often not front on so it's easy for low tackles to be dangerous as well. I just think when players are falling then that shouldn't constitute the same type of discipline (as per Tedesco's incidents over the past two weeks) and for me will always be the grey area.
In my view all this boils down to having more creative and fast players in the game. Teams that don't have that will struggle until they adapt. Raiders may fall into that category I am afraid.
In principle, I think it's the right decision. The onus will shift to defending players to not make any contact with the attacking players head. It is simple as that. And when they do, they must be penalised.
If the speed of the game is too fast, it means defenders need to be fitter and faster. If that means we won't be watching the "same" rugby league - then I think as fans we need to accept it, as that's the future of the game.
Whilst I don't necessarily agree with the way they went about it, i.e. simply starting mid season to send players to the bin for any head contact; it ultimately needed to start somewhere. And I guess it is what it is.
No doubt there are longer term repercussions if they don't address this as soon as possible.
Problem with low tackles is that it's easier to offload. As Robinson was describing on NRL 360, the hips are often not front on so it's easy for low tackles to be dangerous as well. I just think when players are falling then that shouldn't constitute the same type of discipline (as per Tedesco's incidents over the past two weeks) and for me will always be the grey area.
In my view all this boils down to having more creative and fast players in the game. Teams that don't have that will struggle until they adapt. Raiders may fall into that category I am afraid.
- GreenMachine
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Re: This is not rugby league
As someone already said in this thread...
Increase speed, increases fatigue and makes the margin for error smaller...
I have no problem with eliminating head contact, but it’s unrealistic to think there won’t be accidental head contact when everyone is fatigued...
Nor to suggest you can’t have head contact in legs tackles...
Nor can you encourage legs tackles with zero rewards for the defending team..
Robinson pretty much nailed it...the whole issue needs a proper think tank...as you are basically changing a fabric of the game (for a good reason) ..
Increase speed, increases fatigue and makes the margin for error smaller...
I have no problem with eliminating head contact, but it’s unrealistic to think there won’t be accidental head contact when everyone is fatigued...
Nor to suggest you can’t have head contact in legs tackles...
Nor can you encourage legs tackles with zero rewards for the defending team..
Robinson pretty much nailed it...the whole issue needs a proper think tank...as you are basically changing a fabric of the game (for a good reason) ..
Re: This is not rugby league
I don't think anyone would suggest that players shouldn't be protected from head injuries. The thing is though the game is already doing that. High shots have always been penalised and particularly bad or deliberate ones were sin bins/send offs before as well. Then in recent years the HIA rule has been brought in so its not as if the sport was some lawless free for all where you could smash someone in the head whenever you liked previously.
Its pretty clear to me that this latest crackdown has come about because of the media noise that was being made about teams being punished by losing a player to injury/HIA from foul play while the other team keeps 17 players. The current NRL administration has a habit of making abrupt changes in a reactionary way. It started out with this incessant need to make the game 'faster' (which is a problem in itself IMO, but thats for another thread), then we saw a few rounds of heaps of HIA/injuries so they brought in 18th man, and now this.
Its pretty clear to me that this latest crackdown has come about because of the media noise that was being made about teams being punished by losing a player to injury/HIA from foul play while the other team keeps 17 players. The current NRL administration has a habit of making abrupt changes in a reactionary way. It started out with this incessant need to make the game 'faster' (which is a problem in itself IMO, but thats for another thread), then we saw a few rounds of heaps of HIA/injuries so they brought in 18th man, and now this.
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- Simon Woolford
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Re: This is not rugby league
All this talk about legs tackles and every time I hear it I have an image in my head of BJ Leilua making a fantastic and necessary legs tackle in the grand final, only to then see a quick play the ball and Tedesco running away for a try.GreenMachine wrote: ↑May 17, 2021, 3:07 pm Legs tackles? What's that again?
It's basically hit, stick and hold, twist and then gently peel off at a rate of 10 sec's per defender...
Leg's tackles are only going to result in offloads...the good teams will load their packs with players that can offload...creating even more fatigue..
....and when the numpty ref won't call "held" in a leg's tackle, you'll see more cannon ball carnage...
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- David Grant
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Re: This is not rugby league
Me as well.Green Blogger wrote: ↑May 18, 2021, 9:37 amAll this talk about legs tackles and every time I hear it I have an image in my head of BJ Leilua making a fantastic and necessary legs tackle in the grand final, only to then see a quick play the ball and Tedesco running away for a try.GreenMachine wrote: ↑May 17, 2021, 3:07 pm Legs tackles? What's that again?
It's basically hit, stick and hold, twist and then gently peel off at a rate of 10 sec's per defender...
Leg's tackles are only going to result in offloads...the good teams will load their packs with players that can offload...creating even more fatigue..
....and when the numpty ref won't call "held" in a leg's tackle, you'll see more cannon ball carnage...
Should have been called a dominant tackle.
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- Ruben Wiki
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Re: This is not rugby league
So they make the game faster and wonder why there is more high tackles, accidents and injuries haha. Yeah sending players off is really going to help things.
You can't have it both ways Peter
You can't have it both ways Peter
Re: This is not rugby league
A few thoughts:
> if we want to incentivise tackles around the legs, why not allow a second defender to come in and “flop” / hold down the ball carrier
> if we’re going to increase use of the sin bins, they should look into reducing the time to 8 or even 5 mins.
> why don’t we consider player ejections? I.e. the team is down to 16 players, but 13 can still be on the field
> last year’s 6 again rule change was excellent; I think the large majority can agree it made the games more interesting than a stop-start penalty-a-thon. I do think they went a bit far this year though, with the no-scrum restarts, quick hand over etc.
Whilst safety is paramount, the NRL need to ensure they’re putting an entertaining and competitive product on the field. Mid season shambolic rounds like the one just witnessed are an embarrassment for the sport. If they wanted to go this route, they should’ve sorted it out 3 months ago in the offseason.
> if we want to incentivise tackles around the legs, why not allow a second defender to come in and “flop” / hold down the ball carrier
> if we’re going to increase use of the sin bins, they should look into reducing the time to 8 or even 5 mins.
> why don’t we consider player ejections? I.e. the team is down to 16 players, but 13 can still be on the field
> last year’s 6 again rule change was excellent; I think the large majority can agree it made the games more interesting than a stop-start penalty-a-thon. I do think they went a bit far this year though, with the no-scrum restarts, quick hand over etc.
Whilst safety is paramount, the NRL need to ensure they’re putting an entertaining and competitive product on the field. Mid season shambolic rounds like the one just witnessed are an embarrassment for the sport. If they wanted to go this route, they should’ve sorted it out 3 months ago in the offseason.
Re: This is not rugby league
I quite like the legs idea
Sort of works with my suggestion about dominant tackle style system
I really like that idea of ejections and would be interested in talking through what that could or should look like vs send offs
Sort of works with my suggestion about dominant tackle style system
I really like that idea of ejections and would be interested in talking through what that could or should look like vs send offs
- GreenMachine
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Re: This is not rugby league
Ejections won't work as teams will use this to take out the opposing star player and still have 13 on the field ...
Shorter sin bins ? - Sure, were going to need these is we plan on preserving the 'contest' ...
If 'flopping' on a player is the solution to anything, then the game has gone insane.
The current game isn't entertaining. Very few contests past the 40-50 minute mark...lots more blow out score lines..
Last 2 years has been about "increased fatigue" and "moooaaar speed" at the expense of defence, while not dealing with wrestling at all.... and clearly some teams won the lotto (Penrith) while others (us) rolled snake eyes...
One thing Ricky is right about is that if this is where the game is headed, our squad needs drastic surgery and we need to recruit differently ...
Shorter sin bins ? - Sure, were going to need these is we plan on preserving the 'contest' ...
If 'flopping' on a player is the solution to anything, then the game has gone insane.
The current game isn't entertaining. Very few contests past the 40-50 minute mark...lots more blow out score lines..
Last 2 years has been about "increased fatigue" and "moooaaar speed" at the expense of defence, while not dealing with wrestling at all.... and clearly some teams won the lotto (Penrith) while others (us) rolled snake eyes...
One thing Ricky is right about is that if this is where the game is headed, our squad needs drastic surgery and we need to recruit differently ...
Re: This is not rugby league
Cant wait to see what the reaction is when we've got a stack of players getting HIAs for copping knees to the head when they are all diving at each others legs
Re: This is not rugby league
I’d have to give it more thought, but initially thinking:
-> sin bins return to professional fouls only e.g. taking out a kick chaser or holding down a player after a line break
-> ejection for either (i) a reckless high shot causing potential concussion, or (ii) two x high shots of the lesser kind e.g. those slap-in-the-face, lazy coat hanger type ones. Warning for the first instance, ejected for the second
-> send offs remain for the most heinous of shots i.e. those with malicious or hyper-reckless circumstances e.g. Hopoate on Galloway.
-> other dangerous plays (eg spear tackles) to be handled as they have been previously i.e. penalty, report, send off if warranted
This would revert the number of sin bins / send offs to the historical number, whilst allowing additional discipline to protect against concussions.
Re: This is not rugby league
Phil Gould pointed out on 100% Footy last night that only five players failed HIAs in Magic Round, yet we had 14 sin bins and three send offs... and we had 24 players charged by the MRC, but 14 of those charges were deemed so minor that they only attracted fines.
How many of the five failed HIAs were the result of high tackles? Two (send off incidents). The other three failed HIAs happened because players put themselves in the wrong spot in defending.
The idea that the NRL had to do what it did on the weekend is complete rubbish. The NRL has gone about achieving their objective (less head injuries) in completely the wrong fashion. Rather than try and find a genuine solution and generate buy in and cooperation, they've done the opposite.
How many of the five failed HIAs were the result of high tackles? Two (send off incidents). The other three failed HIAs happened because players put themselves in the wrong spot in defending.
The idea that the NRL had to do what it did on the weekend is complete rubbish. The NRL has gone about achieving their objective (less head injuries) in completely the wrong fashion. Rather than try and find a genuine solution and generate buy in and cooperation, they've done the opposite.
- Raiders_Pat
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Re: This is not rugby league
Agreed.greeneyed wrote: ↑May 18, 2021, 1:04 pm Phil Gould pointed out on 100% Footy last night that only five players failed HIAs in Magic Round, yet we had 14 sin bins and three send offs... and we had 24 players charged by the MRC, but 14 of those charges were deemed so minor that they only attracted fines.
How many of the five failed HIAs were the result of high tackles? Two (send off incidents). The other three failed HIAs happened because players put themselves in the wrong spot in defending.
The idea that the NRL had to do what it did on the weekend is complete rubbish. The NRL has gone about achieving their objective (less head injuries) in completely the wrong fashion. Rather than try and find a genuine solution and generate buy in and cooperation, they've done the opposite.
Re: This is not rugby league
He's completely missed the point, not all 14 sin bins were for foul play, a majority were for repeated infringement and a few of those were junk time sin bins for players kicking the ball away with 30 secs to go
If the NRL are consistent, then there shouldn't be an issue. The onus is on the player to adjust their technique to avoid hitting players high
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If the NRL are consistent, then there shouldn't be an issue. The onus is on the player to adjust their technique to avoid hitting players high
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Re: This is not rugby league
I don't think Gould is missing the point. Peter V'landys is justifying what happened on the weekend by telling us it is all to do with getting concussion out of the game.
Gould has a fairly nuanced position on it all really. This is his full interview last night with V'landys: https://wwos.nine.com.au/videos/nrl/vla ... o5pwpawc8o
Gould has a fairly nuanced position on it all really. This is his full interview last night with V'landys: https://wwos.nine.com.au/videos/nrl/vla ... o5pwpawc8o
Re: This is not rugby league
The reality is that you can't remove concussion from rugby league without removing tackling completely. Most of the worst ones you see are from players getting their heads in the wrong place when tackling and copping a hip to the head. Nothing is going to change that and it is merely a consequence of a contact sport. You will also never remove a head clash from the game. I guess the question for the game to answer is what is an acceptable level of risk while retaining the integrity of the game?
I actually think that speeding up the game is likely to result in more injuries and not just head injuries, injuries of other kinds as well. Under fatigue players are less likely to be in the correct place defensively or to be scrambling which creates more unpredictable defensive scenarios.
I liked the changes to the game last year as they removed the benefit to the defensive team of giving away a penalty to essentially slow the game down. What is clear is that the next raft of changes have made the game faster than the vast majority of players are capable of keeping up with and completely removed any sense of contest from most of the matches. In most cases what makes a game interesting is whether or not it is close at the end rather than the quality of football that resulted in that outcome and that is too rare this season. The other thing that is missing is the upset. The closest we had last round was the Tigers beating the Knights who were missing at least half their spine!
It is possible that in a few seasons, if the rules remain roughly the same, that teams will adjust and the contest will return but I think what we are seeing is the result of too many changes, too quickly and teams not having the chance to adjust either in strategy or roster.
I actually think that speeding up the game is likely to result in more injuries and not just head injuries, injuries of other kinds as well. Under fatigue players are less likely to be in the correct place defensively or to be scrambling which creates more unpredictable defensive scenarios.
I liked the changes to the game last year as they removed the benefit to the defensive team of giving away a penalty to essentially slow the game down. What is clear is that the next raft of changes have made the game faster than the vast majority of players are capable of keeping up with and completely removed any sense of contest from most of the matches. In most cases what makes a game interesting is whether or not it is close at the end rather than the quality of football that resulted in that outcome and that is too rare this season. The other thing that is missing is the upset. The closest we had last round was the Tigers beating the Knights who were missing at least half their spine!
It is possible that in a few seasons, if the rules remain roughly the same, that teams will adjust and the contest will return but I think what we are seeing is the result of too many changes, too quickly and teams not having the chance to adjust either in strategy or roster.
- Raiders_Pat
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Re: This is not rugby league
I think the rule changes have been crap for the most part. I'm on board with finding ways to protect players from head injuries (although I don't agree with the way they're going about it) but I'm not at all down with what they've done to "speed up" the game / attempt to make it more exciting. I don't think the changes have made things more exciting at all. I don't think there was anything wrong with final scores of 12-10. It was actually a lot more exciting than now, where we see 40-4 scorelines regularly. Previously, one of league's biggest advantages over other sports in terms of spectating was the close scorelines. They've destroyed that in favour of trying to achieve something they weren't able to. The NRL needs to acknowledge that they stuffed up here and have a full review at that end of the season where they consult coaches, players, referees etc.
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- John Ferguson
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This is not rugby league
I can’t help but think this uproar right now will be all forgotten in 4 weeks. Players will have adjusted and the game will be safer.
Re: This is not rugby league
Canberra Raiders stars speak out as NRL high-shot spree threatens to go too far
Raiders centre Curtis Scott has questioned the NRL's crackdown on dangerous contact as his side prepares for a rampaging Melbourne Storm without three of its biggest stars.
"They've sped up the game and now they expect us to be even cleaner when the game's as fast as it is now. The fatigue in the game these days, it feels like it's doubled out there on the field, a lot more injuries have happened and a lot more stray arms happen just through fatigue.
Read more: https://www.canberratimes.com.au/story/ ... /?cs=14239
VIDEO: Scott pleased with gritty win: https://www.raiders.com.au/news/2021/05 ... ritty-win/
Raiders centre Curtis Scott has questioned the NRL's crackdown on dangerous contact as his side prepares for a rampaging Melbourne Storm without three of its biggest stars.
"They've sped up the game and now they expect us to be even cleaner when the game's as fast as it is now. The fatigue in the game these days, it feels like it's doubled out there on the field, a lot more injuries have happened and a lot more stray arms happen just through fatigue.
Read more: https://www.canberratimes.com.au/story/ ... /?cs=14239
VIDEO: Scott pleased with gritty win: https://www.raiders.com.au/news/2021/05 ... ritty-win/
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Re: This is not rugby league
We are running out on Satd night without a “J” to be seen.
This is not Rugbrugh Leeg.
This is not Rugbrugh Leeg.
3rd Battalion Royal Australian Regiment..Old Faithful
#emptythetank
#emptythetank
Re: This is not rugby league
Agreed. Would much rather watch a low scoring close contest than the types of games we are seeing currently.Raiders_Pat wrote: ↑May 18, 2021, 4:29 pm I think the rule changes have been crap for the most part. I'm on board with finding ways to protect players from head injuries (although I don't agree with the way they're going about it) but I'm not at all down with what they've done to "speed up" the game / attempt to make it more exciting. I don't think the changes have made things more exciting at all. I don't think there was anything wrong with final scores of 12-10. It was actually a lot more exciting than now, where we see 40-4 scorelines regularly. Previously, one of league's biggest advantages over other sports in terms of spectating was the close scorelines. They've destroyed that in favour of trying to achieve something they weren't able to. The NRL needs to acknowledge that they stuffed up here and have a full review at that end of the season where they consult coaches, players, referees etc.
- gangrenous
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Re: This is not rugby league
Each try is worth the value of the minute of the game it’s scored in.
This and other dumb suggestions brought to you by “I just want the score to be close, not decided by the talent of the competing teams”
This and other dumb suggestions brought to you by “I just want the score to be close, not decided by the talent of the competing teams”
Re: This is not rugby league
According to Graham Annesley, 16 of the 24 charges on the weekend we against players who at the time had played less than 40 mins.
So I am not sure that fatigue is the factor. If we were getting clumsy tackles in the last 10 mins of games it could be an argument.
So I am not sure that fatigue is the factor. If we were getting clumsy tackles in the last 10 mins of games it could be an argument.
Re: This is not rugby league
Got it. Might be 8 weeks more likely but you are on the money.LastRaider wrote: ↑May 18, 2021, 6:53 pm I can’t help but think this uproar right now will be all forgotten in 4 weeks. Players will have adjusted and the game will be safer.
- GreenMachine
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Re: This is not rugby league
We should just get rid of the salary cap too...
I mean, who cares about a contest anymore?
Let money...uh...talent decide it.
I mean, who cares about a contest anymore?
Let money...uh...talent decide it.
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Re: This is not rugby league
I can't wait for Origin....Zzzzzzzz
Re: This is not rugby league
Canberra Raiders prop Dunamis Lui joins chorus of players frustrated with NRL crackdown
Dunamis Lui joined the chorus of players expressing concerns with the NRL's changes to rules and interpretations.
"I wasn't a real big fan of the crackdown but that's just my opinion, I just think now they just need to be consistent with it I think, as long as there's a bit of common sense behind some of the send offs. In the game when you're under fatigue, it doesn't matter how you make that tackle you just want to make that tackle. We're not going out there trying to go for the head or anything like that."
Read more: https://www.canberratimes.com.au/story/ ... /?cs=14239
VIDEO: Lui on stepping up as pack leader: https://www.raiders.com.au/news/2021/05 ... ck-leader/
Dunamis Lui joined the chorus of players expressing concerns with the NRL's changes to rules and interpretations.
"I wasn't a real big fan of the crackdown but that's just my opinion, I just think now they just need to be consistent with it I think, as long as there's a bit of common sense behind some of the send offs. In the game when you're under fatigue, it doesn't matter how you make that tackle you just want to make that tackle. We're not going out there trying to go for the head or anything like that."
Read more: https://www.canberratimes.com.au/story/ ... /?cs=14239
VIDEO: Lui on stepping up as pack leader: https://www.raiders.com.au/news/2021/05 ... ck-leader/
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- John Ferguson
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This is not rugby league
I love how the Raiders love the fatigue argument. How many minutes has Lui played this year? Averaging 18 minutes per game I think... but yeah, he is fatigued and loses all comprehension of the rules in the game now. Also the concept that a head high is anywhere above the shoulders is beyond him 15 minutes into his stint
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Re: This is not rugby league
Lui has said multiple times he is struggling with the pace of the game..LastRaider wrote: ↑May 19, 2021, 7:18 pm I love how the Raiders love the fatigue argument. How many minutes has Lui played this year? Averaging 18 minutes per game I think... but yeah, he is fatigued and loses all comprehension of the rules in the game now. Also the concept that a head high is anywhere above the shoulders is beyond him 15 minutes into his stint
Re: This is not rugby league
He also says in the article he’s done a lot of work on the legs, pushing through the pain barrier, and he thinks the extra fitness work has now paid off.Raiders666 wrote: ↑May 19, 2021, 8:07 pmLui has said multiple times he is struggling with the pace of the game..LastRaider wrote: ↑May 19, 2021, 7:18 pm I love how the Raiders love the fatigue argument. How many minutes has Lui played this year? Averaging 18 minutes per game I think... but yeah, he is fatigued and loses all comprehension of the rules in the game now. Also the concept that a head high is anywhere above the shoulders is beyond him 15 minutes into his stint
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Re: This is not rugby league
With the media focus and players coming out against the "crack down" I'm curious to know what people are expecting this round
Do we think there will be about the same number of send offs/sin bins? More ?
With the backlash from the media , coaches and players will the nrl react by being tougher or was it a one week wonder?
Will coaches have had time to manipulate the new rules to suit them?
Do we think there will be about the same number of send offs/sin bins? More ?
With the backlash from the media , coaches and players will the nrl react by being tougher or was it a one week wonder?
Will coaches have had time to manipulate the new rules to suit them?
Vaccinated
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Re: This is not rugby league
I think there will be less total send offs/bins but 1 or 2 controversial ones that set the tone, because the media is on this bandwagon now. Sin bins for repeat infringements will be down, because the smart coaches will understand that they need to clean that up, and it’s easy to clean up. There will be less for high shots, because players will be more wary this week of how they hit. But there will still be some, players aren’t the smartest cookies at the best of times, and under fatigue will make some errors. I would put money on the fact that there will be an lazy arm thrown, with no forceful impact which gets a player sent, and the bulk of the media will choose to focus on that instance as how ‘it has to stop, it’s ruining our game’ despite an expected drastic reduction in overall high shots this week.
- gangrenous
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Re: This is not rugby league
Disappointing quote. Just making a tackle in a game is more important than not hitting a guy in the head?greeneyed wrote: In the game when you're under fatigue, it doesn't matter how you make that tackle you just want to make that tackle. We're not going out there trying to go for the head or anything like that."