2022 New halfback?

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GreenMachine
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by GreenMachine »

SeeBee101 wrote: May 12, 2021, 4:16 pm Reynolds is gone. Thoughts on Hodgo to 7 if we can't get anyone sufficient on the market. He still has game smarts and a good kicking game. Could be a decent option as long as we cover his defensive issues.
Well just get Ricky to teach him how to play halfback....and run faster to cover the holes in the defensive line...

I mean he's a spring chicken....only 32, he has a lot of athletic development left in him according to Botman.... :roflmao
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by Botman »

GreenMachine wrote: May 12, 2021, 4:14 pm :roflmao

Proof reading your own posts isn't working for you....go back and take a look....you change your mind the moment the mob gathers :roflmao

And no...the antiquated belief that a first grade coach can develop a player is ..well...antiquated.

First grade coaches teach their teams the systems they want implemented to win football games. It's why we "crash ball" while other teams "block play"....etc

You might be surprised to learn this, but your genetics will determine whether you will "run fast" or "think quickly on your feet"...or have a big kick in your kitbag....these are not taught. They either unlock with expereince or you never have them in the first place.

But please, do tell me why Ricky never bothered to teach Sezer how to throw a cut out pass....or Jack for that matter....

By your logic, Ricky (who was great at throwing cut out passes) should be spending an hour or two with Jack teaching him how to throw them?

Or perhaps an hour teaching Jack not to kick the ball out on the full??? :roflmao

Your hilarious...
It might surprise you to learn that thinking quickly on your feet, or kicking the ball far has a lot more go into it than genetics.
Thinking on your feet fast involves a deep understanding of the game, game situation, you're not born with that. That deep understand of the game is learned, and continues to be refined and developed throughout your entire career, even well into a FG career.
And that development can be dramatically enhanced by coaching. Coaches who understand the game at that highest level and can effectively teach it to their players generally have players who "think on their feet" better. They develop that with video sessions, they run game scenarios in training, they practise repetition to refine technique, skills and decision making for game situations. Like teachers, like electricians, like doctors, like lawyers... some are better and more effective at their job than others, and thus get better results

To kick a ball high or long, you need the leg sure. But to maximise your height, or length, or kick long/high and accurately, you need technique. Which is taught and developed at a FG level. How to stand to get optimum power through your motion, where to position yourself to maximise time and limit pressure from defenders, how to hold the football and where to kick the football, if you're trying to a ball to pull up, or to get that torpedo effect.

The fundamental athletic traits that allow you to play sport at a high level are not taught, however the refinement of those traits, and developing techniques to maximise whatever athletic traits you have is arguably the definition of what the job of a coach is, at any level. Coaching, is fundamentally a job of taking a player with physical tools and helping him to develop and refine those tools to apply them in specific ways in their chosen sport.

As for why Stuart never bothered to teach x, y z... the answer is rather simple, development has never been a strong point of his coaching. There are coaches who excel at development, there are coaches who excel at man management, there are coaches who excel at tactics, there are coaches who excel at culture.
The best do them all, and do them all brilliant. Most, even at the top level are lacking at one or more of these areas. Stuart isn't a good developmental coach, i suspect he knows it too, hence his preference to rely on veterans where he can.
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by GreenMachine »

Botman wrote: May 12, 2021, 4:45 pm
GreenMachine wrote: May 12, 2021, 4:14 pm :roflmao

Proof reading your own posts isn't working for you....go back and take a look....you change your mind the moment the mob gathers :roflmao

And no...the antiquated belief that a first grade coach can develop a player is ..well...antiquated.

First grade coaches teach their teams the systems they want implemented to win football games. It's why we "crash ball" while other teams "block play"....etc

You might be surprised to learn this, but your genetics will determine whether you will "run fast" or "think quickly on your feet"...or have a big kick in your kitbag....these are not taught. They either unlock with expereince or you never have them in the first place.

But please, do tell me why Ricky never bothered to teach Sezer how to throw a cut out pass....or Jack for that matter....

By your logic, Ricky (who was great at throwing cut out passes) should be spending an hour or two with Jack teaching him how to throw them?

Or perhaps an hour teaching Jack not to kick the ball out on the full??? :roflmao

Your hilarious...
It might surprise you to learn that thinking quickly on your feet, or kicking the ball far has a lot more go into it than genetics.
Thinking on your feet fast involves a deep understanding of the game, game situation, you're not born with that. That deep understand of the game is learned, and continues to be refined and developed throughout your entire career, even well into a FG career.
And that development can be dramatically enhanced by coaching. Coaches who understand the game at that highest level and can effectively teach it to their players generally have players who "think on their feet" better. They develop that with video sessions, they run game scenarios in training, they practise repetition to refine technique, skills and decision making for game situations. Like teachers, like electricians, like doctors, like lawyers... some are better and more effective at their job than others, and thus get better results

To kick a ball high or long, you need the leg sure. But to maximise your height, or length, or kick long/high and accurately, you need technique. Which is taught and developed at a FG level. How to stand to get optimum power through your motion, where to position yourself to maximise time and limit pressure from defenders, how to hold the football and where to kick the football, if you're trying to a ball to pull up, or to get that torpedo effect.

The fundamental athletic traits that allow you to play sport at a high level are not taught, however the refinement of those traits, and developing techniques to maximise whatever athletic traits you have is arguably the definition of what the job of a coach is, at any level. Coaching, is fundamentally a job of taking a player with physical tools and helping him to develop and refine those tools to apply them in specific ways in their chosen sport.

As for why Stuart never bothered to teach x, y z... the answer is rather simple, development has never been a strong point of his coaching. There are coaches who excel at development, there are coaches who excel at man management, there are coaches who excel at tactics, there are coaches who excel at culture.
The best do them all, and do them all brilliant. Most, even at the top level are lacking at one or more of these areas. Stuart isn't a good developmental coach, i suspect he knows it too, hence his preference to rely on veterans where he can.
Garbage.

Stuart can’t coach what is or isn’t genetically predisposed.

You either have a smart player or a stupid player....no amount of going through a playbook changes that.

Just like no amount of sprint training is going to turn you into a speed demon...you might get faster, but your not breaking records.

This “development coach nonsense “ has to stop...some idiot parrots something and it gets cooked to death when it is utter rubbish.

Ask yourself why Sam Walker looks so natural as a halfback after almost no time in first grade, but Jack Wighton still plays like a frog in the sock when it comes to ball playing.

Don’t confuse what a first grade coach teaches compared to basic skills you learn when you’re in juniors...

The idea that Bellyache did anything other than teach the players how he wanted them to win matches is a myth. Same with Bennett.

Ask the players themselves, they’ll tell you the best coaches are “people manager’, they know how to manage the different collective personalities in a football team, both on and off the field...

If you don’t have the underlying genetics to be a speedster or a quick thinking play maker, you won’t be...sad but that’s how life works...

Otherwise, Ricky Stuart would have presided over the longest list of “greatest ever” halfbacks over his coaching career (given his skill set) and clearly that’s not the case...
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by rayden83 »

SeeBee101 wrote: May 12, 2021, 4:16 pm Reynolds is gone. Thoughts on Hodgo to 7 if we can't get anyone sufficient on the market. He still has game smarts and a good kicking game. Could be a decent option as long as we cover his defensive issues.
This brings back memories of when Tongue played half back. :lol: Boy those were the days.
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by zim »

Ahhh we've slipped in troll territory. No one is honestly throwing out the whole concept of education and training. Was an interesting gawk before it became so silly.
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2022 New halfback?

Post by Postman Pat »

It’s bloody bonkers to think players aren’t developed in FG, how can you even argue that?
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by Botman »

GreenMachine wrote: May 12, 2021, 5:59 pm Garbage.

Stuart can’t coach what is or isn’t genetically predisposed.
You either have a smart player or a stupid player....no amount of going through a playbook changes that.

Just like no amount of sprint training is going to turn you into a speed demon...you might get faster, but your not breaking records.
No, but what coaches do is take players traits natural traits like intellegence, speed, power and size etc and help them develop their skills and technique, in an attempt to help them maximise their natural gifts. A naturally fast player, with specific training and development will maximise his natural gift, a naturally smart player can be easily taught the concepts of how they're trying to attack a team and why, and understand the goal and then apply that in game to other situations.

Conversely they can take a slow player, and with specific training and development help him get faster. Will he ever be a burner? no but he can improve. Likewise they can take dumb players and help them with their decision making. Bellemy has made a career on doing this.
They develop players to help them improve on their weaknesses and maximise their strengths

That is growth and improvement of a player. That's what it is. Every coach in the world aims to to do this, at any level. They work to help their players individually and their team as a whole grow and improve. Growth and improvement of a player is player development.

GreenMachine wrote: May 12, 2021, 5:59 pm Ask yourself why Sam Walker looks so natural as a halfback after almost no time in first grade, but Jack Wighton still plays like a frog in the sock when it comes to ball playing.
I dont need to. I know why. The roosters have one of the best coaches in the game, their development system is second only to Bellemy. Robinson and his coaching staff have an impeccible record of taking very talented players and developing them to at first play very specific roles as they are introduced and then expand their roles and responsibilities. This is part of a development plan. Occasionally a talent so prodigious emerges on the scene and shows they can hang right away, it's pretty rare, particularly halves in the NRL, but when they do, as Sam Walker has, and you can fast track that development plan.

But Robinson has spoken openly about their process with Walker, their plan for him and not wanting to put too much on him before he's ready. He's talking about the development plan they have for him.

GreenMachine wrote: May 12, 2021, 5:59 pmDon’t confuse what a first grade coach teaches compared to basic skills you learn when you’re in juniors...

I am not remotely confused. There is entire industries like sports science, biometics in sports, dedicated to helping elite athletes refine their technique, improve training regimes, improved diet, improve sleeping habits, specific training drills that focus on muscle memory, and a WHOLE lot more, all in the name of developing elite athletes... and it never stops. Usain Bolt, Michael Phelps even athletes on that level, the greatest of all time... they had coaches, and teams of staff who's sole job was to analysis their performance, and find ways to help them continue to develop their skills and technique so they can continue to maximise their natural gifts.

GreenMachine wrote: May 12, 2021, 5:59 pmThe idea that Bellyache did anything other than teach the players how he wanted them to win matches is a myth. Same with Bennett.

Ask the players themselves, they’ll tell you the best coaches are “people manager’, they know how to manage the different collective personalities in a football team, both on and off the field...

If you don’t have the underlying genetics to be a speedster or a quick thinking play maker, you won’t be...sad but that’s how life works...

The fact you think athlete development is a myth once you reach a certain level of competetion is demonstratably false in every professional sporting competion around the world. It beggers belief that anyone who's actually watched any sport what so ever could actually think that.

You cant develop elite speed if you dont have it, but that's not what development is. If that's your idea of what you think development is, then no wonder you think its a myth, as you have absolutely no idea what it is.
GreenMachine wrote: May 12, 2021, 5:59 pmOtherwise, Ricky Stuart would have presided over the longest list of “greatest ever” halfbacks over his coaching career (given his skill set) and clearly that’s not the case...
Just because you can do, doesnt mean you can teach. Teaching and development is a skill and ability all by itself. You yourself must have noticed in your school days there were good teachers and bad. Good teachers are engaging, they know their subject matter, they know how to engage their pupils and get people engaged. It's a skill... ****, you might even argue the good ones are born with it... and if you aint got it and you've done nothing to develop it, then you're not going to be effective in that role.
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by GreenMachine »

Postman Pat wrote: May 12, 2021, 7:49 pm It’s bloody bonkers to think players aren’t developed in FG, how can you even argue that?
Define development for me and we can discuss.
Otherwise, just parrot the same nonsense long enough so that you can convince yourself..
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by GreenMachine »

Botman wrote: May 12, 2021, 8:09 pm
GreenMachine wrote: May 12, 2021, 5:59 pm Garbage.

Stuart can’t coach what is or isn’t genetically predisposed.
You either have a smart player or a stupid player....no amount of going through a playbook changes that.

Just like no amount of sprint training is going to turn you into a speed demon...you might get faster, but your not breaking records.
No, but what coaches do is take players traits natural traits like intellegence, speed, power and size etc and help them develop their skills and technique, in an attempt to help them maximise their natural gifts. A naturally fast player, with specific training and development will maximise his natural gift, a naturally smart player can be easily taught the concepts of how they're trying to attack a team and why, and understand the goal and then apply that in game to other situations.

Conversely they can take a slow player, and with specific training and development help him get faster. Will he ever be a burner? no but he can improve. Likewise they can take dumb players and help them with their decision making. Bellemy has made a career on doing this.
They develop players to help them improve on their weaknesses and maximise their strengths

That is growth and improvement of a player. That's what it is. Every coach in the world aims to to do this, at any level. They work to help their players individually and their team as a whole grow and improve. Growth and improvement of a player is player development.

GreenMachine wrote: May 12, 2021, 5:59 pm Ask yourself why Sam Walker looks so natural as a halfback after almost no time in first grade, but Jack Wighton still plays like a frog in the sock when it comes to ball playing.
I dont need to. I know why. The roosters have one of the best coaches in the game, their development system is second only to Bellemy. Robinson and his coaching staff have an impeccible record of taking very talented players and developing them to at first play very specific roles as they are introduced and then expand their roles and responsibilities. This is part of a development plan. Occasionally a talent so prodigious emerges on the scene and shows they can hang right away, it's pretty rare, particularly halves in the NRL, but when they do, as Sam Walker has, and you can fast track that development plan.

But Robinson has spoken openly about their process with Walker, their plan for him and not wanting to put too much on him before he's ready. He's talking about the development plan they have for him.

GreenMachine wrote: May 12, 2021, 5:59 pmDon’t confuse what a first grade coach teaches compared to basic skills you learn when you’re in juniors...

I am not remotely confused. There is entire industries like sports science, biometics in sports, dedicated to helping elite athletes refine their technique, improve training regimes, improved diet, improve sleeping habits, specific training drills that focus on muscle memory, and a WHOLE lot more, all in the name of developing elite athletes... and it never stops. Usain Bolt, Michael Phelps even athletes on that level, the greatest of all time... they had coaches, and teams of staff who's sole job was to analysis their performance, and find ways to help them continue to develop their skills and technique so they can continue to maximise their natural gifts.

GreenMachine wrote: May 12, 2021, 5:59 pmThe idea that Bellyache did anything other than teach the players how he wanted them to win matches is a myth. Same with Bennett.

Ask the players themselves, they’ll tell you the best coaches are “people manager’, they know how to manage the different collective personalities in a football team, both on and off the field...

If you don’t have the underlying genetics to be a speedster or a quick thinking play maker, you won’t be...sad but that’s how life works...

The fact you think athlete development is a myth once you reach a certain level of competetion is demonstratably false in every professional sporting competion around the world. It beggers belief that anyone who's actually watched any sport what so ever could actually think that.

You cant develop elite speed if you dont have it, but that's not what development is. If that's your idea of what you think development is, then no wonder you think its a myth, as you have absolutely no idea what it is.
GreenMachine wrote: May 12, 2021, 5:59 pmOtherwise, Ricky Stuart would have presided over the longest list of “greatest ever” halfbacks over his coaching career (given his skill set) and clearly that’s not the case...
Just because you can do, doesnt mean you can teach. Teaching and development is a skill and ability all by itself. You yourself must have noticed in your school days there were good teachers and bad. Good teachers are engaging, they know their subject matter, they know how to engage their pupils and get people engaged. It's a skill... ****, you might even argue the good ones are born with it... and if you aint got it and you've done nothing to develop it, then you're not going to be effective in that role.
Thanks for basically agreeing with me.
Without the natural abilities, players can’t be “developed” by a first grade coach to perform the tasks they are not predisposed to being able to perform.

Which explains why despite the countless years of training and development, some players can’t perform the duties that coaches ask from them...

It’s why we have so few legends and immortals in the game.

If it was as easy as being “developed by coach” we’d have legends everywhere given the amount of additional information available for the current generation of players to “develop from”...

Or are we now saying the majority of NRL coaches, cannot coach??

And the idea that Robinson has somehow in a short period of time “developed” Walker into what we see today is laughable...

That’s called Talent...Sam clearly has it and Flanagan didn’t ...

You see that’s where credit goes to Robinson...for identifying talent and flicking the average player out...Walker now gets more experience in first grade to learn his craft and fit into the Rooster system , and before you know it, they are back in another GF in the not to distant future...

That’s exactly the path we should take.
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by afgtnk »

It's incredibly rare to get an 18 year old half playing like Walker is right now. He's very much an outlier. A lot of them have to be developed and nurtured to older ages before they start playing regular first grade. Even now, Walker probably wouldn't be playing if it weren't for the injuries. Robinson's plan would've been to have him keep working and carefully manage his development. That he's playing the way he is quite special and rare.

He's still got plenty of improvement areas in his game that need work and rounding off. Rest assured, teams will sit down and do their best to figure him out , target him, and counter him. All of that will require good coaching and development.
Last edited by afgtnk on May 12, 2021, 8:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by Botman »

"Thanks for basically agreeing with me."

HAHAHA Holy ****, you CANNOT be **** serious?
You cant read that post, read your **** and really come at me with that?

I'm done. I'm not wasting another second on this with you. I regret everything

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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by rayden83 »

I think, to a point, greenmachine is correct, at least in respect to half backs. Take for instance Brodie Croft. Now you can invest all the time, training, sports science and advanced coaching methods in him, but at the end of the day he probably isn't going to cut it at NRL level. His ceiling isn't high enough. Half backs tend to establish themselves early on and peak later, however the ability to succeed at NRL level is usually apparent straight away. It's not necessarily the long range cut out balls and floaters, its often intangibles like vision, decision making, imagination etc that indicates whether that player has what it takes. The execution may be poor, but that's when the coaching, training etc helps to tighten those loose areas.

The reality is half back is such a specialised position that unless you're showing real promise by your late teens/early 20's you're probably not going to make it. Those skills probably are learnt/taught but they would be cultivated from an early age.
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by Crash Ball »

You blokes should try actually reading about the topics you post about.
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by Northern Raider »

rayden83 wrote: May 12, 2021, 9:01 pm I think, to a point, greenmachine is correct, at least in respect to half backs. Take for instance Brodie Croft. Now you can invest all the time, training, sports science and advanced coaching methods in him, but at the end of the day he probably isn't going to cut it at NRL level. His ceiling isn't high enough. Half backs tend to establish themselves early on and peak later, however the ability to succeed at NRL level is usually apparent straight away. It's not necessarily the long range cut out balls and floaters, its often intangibles like vision, decision making, imagination etc that indicates whether that player has what it takes. The execution may be poor, but that's when the coaching, training etc helps to tighten those loose areas.

The reality is half back is such a specialised position that unless you're showing real promise by your late teens/early 20's you're probably not going to make it. Those skills probably are learnt/taught but they would be cultivated from an early age.
Good post. It's the intangibles that set apart the top players. Ability to read a game can be taught to a degree. Majority comes back to the natural instincts of the individual. It's what set apart guys like Wally Lewis, Andrew Johns and more recently Cam Smith who played at a level well beyond their physical talents. For most it's the those that can continually improve are the ones that succeed. Improvement comes from many sources. Coaching is one of those.
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by mongoose »

You're talking about the rare best of the best players though, of course those types of players have to have a huge amount of natural ability to be as good as they were but the Melbourne Storm are testament that you can develop players with average skill set into consistent NRL players and talented players into representative players. Even Billy Slater had to be developed, he wasn't terrific under the heigh ball when he started out and his defensive positioning needed a bit of work. Developing those aspects of his game as well as his fitness, leadership and work ethic made him the player he was. Natural talent, development, luck all plays a part.
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by Kryptonite »

rayden83 wrote: May 12, 2021, 6:26 pm
SeeBee101 wrote: May 12, 2021, 4:16 pm Reynolds is gone. Thoughts on Hodgo to 7 if we can't get anyone sufficient on the market. He still has game smarts and a good kicking game. Could be a decent option as long as we cover his defensive issues.
This brings back memories of when Tongue played half back. :lol: Boy those were the days.
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by Wiki Special »

Left field suggestion - anyone follow Union close enough to know if there is a quality 10 out there that has the skills to translate into a League 7?
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by -TW- »

Kryptonite wrote:
rayden83 wrote: May 12, 2021, 6:26 pm
SeeBee101 wrote: May 12, 2021, 4:16 pm Reynolds is gone. Thoughts on Hodgo to 7 if we can't get anyone sufficient on the market. He still has game smarts and a good kicking game. Could be a decent option as long as we cover his defensive issues.
This brings back memories of when Tongue played half back. Image Boy those were the days.
Is ATA Hingano prepared to break his ESL contract? Transfer fee should be minimal
Great - we need a winger

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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by Botman »

Wiki Special wrote: May 13, 2021, 7:25 pm Left field suggestion - anyone follow Union close enough to know if there is a quality 10 out there that has the skills to translate into a League 7?
Thoughts and prayers to anyone who follows that code closely enough to answer this question
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by -PJ- »

Botman wrote: May 13, 2021, 8:55 pm
Wiki Special wrote: May 13, 2021, 7:25 pm Left field suggestion - anyone follow Union close enough to know if there is a quality 10 out there that has the skills to translate into a League 7?
Thoughts and prayers to anyone who follows that code closely enough to answer this question
Amen to that Botman.
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by gerg »

-PJ- wrote:
Botman wrote: May 13, 2021, 8:55 pm
Wiki Special wrote: May 13, 2021, 7:25 pm Left field suggestion - anyone follow Union close enough to know if there is a quality 10 out there that has the skills to translate into a League 7?
Thoughts and prayers to anyone who follows that code closely enough to answer this question
Amen to that Botman.
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by Botman »

We cross live to TR's kitchen for comment

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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by Raiders_Pat »

The Brumbies flyhalf Noah Lolesio is pretty good. He's only 21 too. I don't think he has any background in league though but I reckon he's the type of guy who could potentially kill it in league. I reckon we could also look at union to pick up a yard eating winger.
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by Raiders_Pat »

I don't think the ARU will be letting him go without a fight though, he is a Wallaby at a very young age. You'd have to come up with a large offer... but the more I think about it, the more I think it's worth it. It would be a big coup for the Raiders and the NRL.
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by kiwi raider »

Botman wrote: May 13, 2021, 8:55 pm
Wiki Special wrote: May 13, 2021, 7:25 pm Left field suggestion - anyone follow Union close enough to know if there is a quality 10 out there that has the skills to translate into a League 7?
Thoughts and prayers to anyone who follows that code closely enough to answer this question
:D
Richie Mo'unga would kill it but he's the first choice all blacks 10 so its a pipedream at the moment, he has a bit of a league background i think as both his brothers played for the local canterbury rep side over here, have heard him say in interviews that his older brothers reckon he should stick to union as he's too soft for League.... I could see him wanting to give the nrl a crack in a few years time to prove them wrong.
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by julian87 »

Ah union hey. The sport where rugby league reserve graders become elite players when they transition that way.

It’s not going to work the opposite way.
well, I guess you could say that I'm buy curious.
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by -TW- »

Raiders_Pat wrote:The Brumbies flyhalf Noah Lolesio is pretty good. He's only 21 too. I don't think he has any background in league though but I reckon he's the type of guy who could potentially kill it in league. I reckon we could also look at union to pick up a yard eating winger.
He's pretty average tbh

He wouldn't make it in league. The Brumbies has rotated through average 10s for a few years and just seem to make it work

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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by Damoni »

Lolesio is the Union version of Kyle Flanagan
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by T_R »

I can't fathom why any halfway decent union player would move to league. In terms of career longevity, earning potential and every other factor I can think of, it would just make no sense.
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by Matt »

Raiders_Pat wrote: May 11, 2021, 7:09 pm
Botman wrote: May 11, 2021, 6:58 pm Croft was a good gamble for the Broncos a few years ago, those are the sort of gambles we should consider taking now... young guys who have flashed but for whatever reason are out of favour at their current club, i cant think of many of those guys off hand... if the Broncos get Reynolds and are intent on playing Staggs at 5/8th Dearden is probably going to be available... if we cant land a proven player or a better pedigree kid, that's the sort of gamble you might take.

But the Croft gamble has been made and lost, we dont need to double down on a losing ticket
Exactly my thoughts on Croft. Dearden would be a great buy for us but he already signed with the Cowboys. The young halves still unsigned for next year are Tanah Boyd, Paul Turner, Phoenix Crossland, Cooper Johns - all 20/21 years old.
Turner signed with Titans. 4th of May. So before your post
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by Matt »

GreenMachine wrote: May 12, 2021, 9:39 am Deardon signed with the Cowboys.
G Williams 100% won't be here next season...
The two candidates I think the club will try to snare are Croft or Fogerty...
Both are underwhelming.
I'd rather we develop our youth option and invest more in the 1 to 5 positions.
Fog is a good game manager, kicker and goal kicker. Id take him. But pretty sure Titans love him and re-signed him
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by kiwi raider »

julian87 wrote: May 14, 2021, 8:14 am Ah union hey. The sport where rugby league reserve graders become elite players when they transition that way.

It’s not going to work the opposite way.
works both ways, Sam Burgess was one of the best league players in the world and only 25/26 years old, and was pitiful as a union player, honestly he was woeful. even players like Rogers, Sailor, Tuqiri were in int/SOO superstars in the nrl but were very average footabllers on the world stage, they may have made the Australian side because of a massive lack of talent/depth but were never regarded as being amongst the top players in the world in there positions.
T_R wrote: May 14, 2021, 8:55 am I can't fathom why any halfway decent union player would move to league. In terms of career longevity, earning potential and every other factor I can think of, it would just make no sense.
Yea wouldn't make any sense really when you can earn far more money in far more locations/competitions. you can earn big money and play accross the globe and then when you start to age and regress you can pick to go to Japan/France and collect double what you'd earn in the nrl for 3 months work deep in to your 30's
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by -PJ- »

kiwi raider wrote: May 14, 2021, 9:22 am
julian87 wrote: May 14, 2021, 8:14 am Ah union hey. The sport where rugby league reserve graders become elite players when they transition that way.

It’s not going to work the opposite way.
works both ways, Sam Burgess was one of the best league players in the world and only 25/26 years old, and was pitiful as a union player, honestly he was woeful. even players like Rogers, Sailor, Tuqiri were in int/SOO superstars in the nrl but were very average footabllers on the world stage, they may have made the Australian side because of a massive lack of talent/depth but were never regarded as being amongst the top players in the world in there positions.
T_R wrote: May 14, 2021, 8:55 am I can't fathom why any halfway decent union player would move to league. In terms of career longevity, earning potential and every other factor I can think of, it would just make no sense.
Yea wouldn't make any sense really when you can earn far more money in far more locations/competitions. you can earn big money and play accross the globe and then when you start to age and regress you can pick to go to Japan/France and collect double what you'd earn in the nrl for 3 months work deep in to your 30's
I think the carrot dangled in front of Sailor, Tiquiri and Rogers was the promise of a Wallaby jumper.

To be fair, Rogers had plenty of skill to make it anyway.

Even Ryan Cross was a wallaby right ?
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by zim »

Matt wrote: May 14, 2021, 9:00 am
GreenMachine wrote: May 12, 2021, 9:39 am Deardon signed with the Cowboys.
G Williams 100% won't be here next season...
The two candidates I think the club will try to snare are Croft or Fogerty...
Both are underwhelming.
I'd rather we develop our youth option and invest more in the 1 to 5 positions.
Fog is a good game manager, kicker and goal kicker. Id take him. But pretty sure Titans love him and re-signed him
He's exactly the kind of mid range option you could successfully pair with Wighton. But as you say they're not letting their captain go.
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by Matt »

I love this kinda thread. This is my wheelhouse.

Ok so, lets 1st cover the guys that are signed/ re-signed already (hopefully I havent missed anyone):
Reynolds is off to the Bronx, 3yrs @ 750K a yr.
Hughes re-signed at Storm.
Dearden and Chad are both off to the Cows, from the Bronx and Sharks respectively. Drinky has re-signed with the Cows.
Clifford is off to the Knights, after backflipping/ Cows renegging on the early release. Pearce re-signed til the end of next yr too.
Burton is off to the Dogs (though the backflip talk is getting louder)
Walker just got a big 3yr deal for Chooks.
Paul Turner is off to the Titans from the Warriors, after he refused a swap for Walsh earlier this yr (NZ still got their man, and Bronx should be ashamed).
Tigers have signed Hastings for 2yrs and re-signed Brooks understudy Madden (who plays off the pine this magic Rd).
Connor Tracey was re-signed by Sharks for 4yrs.

I suspect you cant touch any of these guys, and as much as I like to concept of trying to get Pearce out of his, I cant see it happening.

If we starting looking at official options, aka off contract in 2021, you have:
Bronx - Milford
Dogs - Lachlan Lewis
Sharks - SJ, Moylan and Trindall
Titans - Tanah Boyd and Ash Taylor
Manly - Lachlan Croker and Dylan Walker
Storm - Hynes, Ryley Jacks, Cooper Johns
NZ - Sean O'Sullivan
Knights - Pheonix Crossland, Tex Hoy, Kurt Mann, Connor Watson
Cows - Hampton
Eels - Jordan Rankin, Will Smith
Panthers - Tyrone May, Jaeman Salmon
Bunnies - Troy Dargan, Dean Hawkins, Benji Marshall
Dragons - Norman
Roosters - Hutchison
Tigers - Walters

The unofficial, but in the media guys:
Brooks
Croft (2022 contract)
Mbye

Looking at this list ill start with the guys that IMO really dont fit/ dont want/ etc:
Hampton - utility spine player and journeyman - Storm offcast
Walters - He wants to go to join Dad at Bronx, but he is a running 6 or 9.
Jordan Rankin - Fallen a long way from the 16yr old who debuted at Titans, utility spine player.
Will Smith - utility spine player, adlib player
Tyrone May - 'Mr Fixit', Jack of all trades, expert at none
Jaeman Salmon - Never lived up to the hype, been playing centre I believe anyway
Kurt Mann - Is one of OBriens pet cats. Was good at Strom when OBrien was there, good again under O'Brien at Knights. He is another Wighton type 6 though.
Connor Watson - Is he a 1? 6? or 13? I know he is an exciting X-factor player, but he isnt a 7, which is what we need.
Ryley Jacks - Im pretty sure we sniffed around here before he went to Titans. I dont think he is better than a backup.
Lachlan Croker - We cut him before, and has now been converted to a 9.
Dylan Walker - His best spot seems to be centre, but he is a 'punch me in the face kinda guy', we wont go there.
Moylan - Always broken, and a FB/6


They guys who are options, but guys you probably want to pass on/ wont be avaliable:
Hutchinson - Journeyman, but looks a very solid 7. Do you want him as your starter? No.
Norman - A bloke with so much talent, but nothing between the ears (on and off the field), and lack on consistency. He cant lead you.
Troy Dargan/ Dean Hawkins - I think the Bunnies are happy to with one of these rookies next to Walker next year, so Im tempted to say they are off the market.
Benji Marshall - Would be nice to see this hoodoo over, but a 36/37yr old Benji? Esp in an entire season? 1yr stop gap, not horrible, but not good either.
Pheonix Crossland - Has had all the wraps as a kid, but Knights signed Clifford and Pearce, so??? Do they not believe? Or are injuries the worry?
Sean O'Sullivan - Journeymen now. Played well against us this yr. Probably only an upgrade on Sammy and Frawley though. Marginal NRL player.
Lachlan Lewis - Like Croker, we let him walk previously. General play long kicker, and his defense is great. BUT, isnt creative, and doesnt run.
Trindall - I suspect Sharks are tempted to hold him and punt both Moylan and SJ, but we will see. Ultimately I think he is a backup though.
Ash Taylor - Has all the talent, and its unfortunate for him, but I dont want the baggage. Change of scenery might be good for him, but I cant take that risk.
SJ - Mid 30s, always busted, we sniffed around him before GWilly. Id probably prefer him over Benji, but really IMO, he is a 1yr deal stop gap guy to help bring a Schnieder, and thats it. I cant see him taking that.


Guys who dont fit the bill, but I would be happy if we signed:
Tex Hoy - A FB/ 6, but heaps of talent. I wouldnt hate this move, as the kid looks good and is a GKer. But a 7 he isnt, so the fit isnt great.
Hynes - Similary story to Hoy, a FB/ 6; TBH, thats what Hughes was too. He is a bit older too, so that could help development with maturity. Bronx are very interested in him though, so his value is climbing. Again, not really a 7.


Genuine 2021 options:
Milford - Titans are sniffing around as replacements for Boyd and Taylor. Has burnt bridges here before. We know what he is, fat, lazy, inconsistent and not an orgainiser.

Tanah Boyd - Massive wraps as a school boy. Was the kid behind Taylor at Bronx. Titans turned him into a 6/9. I not sold on this yet, but ill be watching him more closely for the rest of the season. Not sure he is an organiser, but ill wait til later in the yr to make this call.

Brooks - The best of the "gun" options on the market. Id like to say, lets see what he can do in a good team over the rabble the Tigers are, but I suspect he is only walking into a marginally better setup if this yr is anything to go by. I think defensively he has improved in the last couple of years, but his team is horrible, so hard to judge. I mean Moses isnt a turnstile at Eels, so its possible its the guys around him. Would bring some attacking spark, which we need. He can kick goals, which we need.

Mbye - I want to put him in the no go zone, BUT, at the right price while a utility player, never really reached the heights of the wraps. Solid all round guy, can kick, ball play, run, kick goals, not a bad defender. I could see him as a bridging player

Croft - Like Mbye, I kinda want to put him in the no go, as I think he is a structures guy. Cant play adlib, and that worries me in the modern game, and its a big reason he hasnt worked in the train wreck at Broncos. So, its about what your asking him to do. In our side we need a bloke to get us around the field and give our right edge some ball. I think this is what he is capable of, esp as the Bronx made him a team captain because of his off field leadership etc, BUT, thats it. Your not getting a spectacular player, and he is a Storm offcast. Not the best tackler either, will attempt it, but does like to slip off, so not really a Ricky guy. At the right price, i could see him as a 'bridging' player, and certainly an upgrade on Sammy and Frawley.

Cooper Johns - This is 100% the type of punt we need to take. I have no idea if it would come off. I worry that with Munster, Smith and Grant out this wk, he isnt in the 21 though. Matty Johns loves Ricky though, so as a family I can see that happening (even if we need the other brother an a package deal).


Other outside the box thoughts:
Kyle Flannagan - GKer, general play kicker, short and long, all the wraps in the world. Not super creative, but was good at Sharks, not super required at Chooks, and cant blame him for anything at Dogs, coz they flat out stink. They asked him to do far far too much this yr. This would be much much harder if Burton backflips, esp as they dont seem to want Lewis or Wakeham. But if he isnt happy there, Id be willing to take a punt on a young talent. We have enough around him that he wouldnt need to be 'the man'.

Lachlan Lam - I think he is probably a running 5/8, but his kicking game is solid, and can certainly defend. Would be 3rd sting or a 14 at Chooks next yr. Dad probably not happy if he leaves, but a start is a start.


2022 Options:
Dogs - Brandon Wakeham - GKing half. Fiji international, but cant cement a spot in an awful team.
Titans - Brimson, Fogerty, Sexton (Aussie schools boys half) - Ill be honest, dont see Titans losing any of these 3 esp, if they lose both Taylor and Boyd, but Sexton could be a Johns type punt worth taking.
NZ - CHT and Nikorima - Pretty sure NZ want these 2 and Walsh as their spine moving forward. They have lost all the other half options around them.
Knights - Pearce (as above)
Eels - Arthars, Guth and Moses - I dont see Eels losing any of these guys, but Moses would be what we need.
Bunnies - Walker - Pass, a running 6 isnt what we need.
Dragons - Clune (I thought I heard he was leaving?), Sullivan - Clune isnt much better than Sammy or Fraws IMO. Sullivan is a running 6, but, young enough that could be worth a punt. Dragz fans would blow up royal too.
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