2022 New halfback?

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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by GreenMachine »

Deardon signed with the Cowboys.
G Williams 100% won't be here next season...
The two candidates I think the club will try to snare are Croft or Fogerty...
Both are underwhelming.
I'd rather we develop our youth option and invest more in the 1 to 5 positions.
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by FuiFui BradBrad »

I’ve never really given Brooks a second thought, since his best game was his debut. But I saw somewhere… either Reddit or Guru on Insta… that there’s an argument to be had that he’s better than he looks.

This guy argued if you look at his stats and Dally M polling, the theory is that he’s decent, but playing in a system not suited for him.

I’ve been meaning to look into it more, but I’ve been busy posting useless facts in the Line Lounge
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by Seiffert82 »

Adam Reynolds would be good. Losing Tapine and Williams would free enough cash. Negotiating a payout for Croker would be even better, especially as Reynolds is a gun goal kicker and we have no Williams.

Short of that, I'd be very open to the club taking a punt on Luke Brooks. The guy has been a perennial loser, but is experienced and clearly has talent. He desperately needs a change. He's also only 26, so arguably has a few good years left in him. We'd potentially be buying low too.

Forget Johnson, that's not happening.

If we needed a running half, Milf would be an option. Nobody seems to like the idea of moving Wighton back at fullback if Milford played 6, but there is no way Milford is fit for the fullback role any more. At this point the 6 jersey is Jack's.
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by Botman »

Reynolds is said to be already signed, sealed and delivered for the Broncos
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by Canberra Milk »

I forgot about Luke Brooks. He'd probably be my number one choice. He's a genuine 7, can run, kick and pass. Is he the next big star he was originally touted to be, no, but he's a first grader.
Sid wrote: May 12, 2021, 8:41 am I haven't really watched much of Hutchison or Lam... any good?

Lam is contracted next year, but would think roo$ters would extend Walker, then Lam would only play when Walker or Keary are injured (I guess that's most of next season then)

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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by Botman »

Canberra Milk wrote: May 12, 2021, 10:59 am I forgot about Luke Brooks. He'd probably be my number one choice. He's a genuine 7, can run, kick and pass. Is he the next big star he was originally touted to be, no, but he's a first grader.
The tigers, who to be clear, aren't very good, are going to replace him with a dude from the ESL who was not very good in the NRL.
He might well be a FGer but he's not a very good one

I think id actually prefer Sam Williams, he'd be 80% of Brooks for about 35% of the cost
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by mongoose »

GreenMachine wrote: May 12, 2021, 9:39 am Deardon signed with the Cowboys.
G Williams 100% won't be here next season...
The two candidates I think the club will try to snare are Croft or Fogerty...
Both are underwhelming.
I'd rather we develop our youth option and invest more in the 1 to 5 positions.
The problem is we have a coach who doesn't like rookie halves and doesn't know how to bring them through. Has any Ricky Stuart team ever developed a good half? He had Fitler/Wing/Finch at the Roosters. I think he had Kimmorley/Bird/Seymour at the Sharks, not sure who he had at the Eels but he was only there for 5 mins. So far at the Raiders he's had S Williams/Campese/Austin then Sezer/Austin/Wighton then Williams/Wighton.

Not a single rookie or inexperienced half among them. I guess you could argue he developed Wighton into a 5/8 but Wighton's strength isn't his ball playing or vision, it's all athletic ability. However for a coach who has 17 or so seasons under his belt that is pitiful.
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by GreenMachine »

mongoose wrote: May 12, 2021, 11:23 am
GreenMachine wrote: May 12, 2021, 9:39 am Deardon signed with the Cowboys.
G Williams 100% won't be here next season...
The two candidates I think the club will try to snare are Croft or Fogerty...
Both are underwhelming.
I'd rather we develop our youth option and invest more in the 1 to 5 positions.
The problem is we have a coach who doesn't like rookie halves and doesn't know how to bring them through. Has any Ricky Stuart team ever developed a good half? He had Fitler/Wing/Finch at the Roosters. I think he had Kimmorley/Bird/Seymour at the Sharks, not sure who he had at the Eels but he was only there for 5 mins. So far at the Raiders he's had S Williams/Campese/Austin then Sezer/Austin/Wighton then Williams/Wighton.

Not a single rookie or inexperienced half among them. I guess you could argue he developed Wighton into a 5/8 but Wighton's strength isn't his ball playing or vision, it's all athletic ability. However for a coach who has 17 or so seasons under his belt that is pitiful.
Yeah I'm not a believer that coaches 'develop' halves or players for that matter...
Most natural halves are born natural halves and have the ability to " ball play /play make" naturally.
The coaches (should be) providing the coaching around game management.

Recruitment needs to earn their money and find a natural talent, who can "ball play / play make".
I'm often amused when I hear people say we need an "organising halfback". What they should be saying is that the TEAM needs game management training.

Halfbacks coming through these days are instantly coached to play in rigid systems and any natural ball playing / play making skills are dulled or discouraged. However, these new rules are allowing the natural ball players to display their talents way more than in the past.

It won't matter who we recruit, if they can't naturally "ball play or play make" then were relying on our system (which isn't looking too great under the current rules); and our Game Management (which looks shot at the moment given we have given up 5 half time leads for losses).
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by Billy Walker »

Cooper Cronk is often put forward as an example of someone that wasn’t a natural half but work hard to develop into a brilliant 7. I’d say Storm are doing something very similar with Jerome Hughes.
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by GreenMachine »

Billy Walker wrote: May 12, 2021, 12:49 pm Cooper Cronk is often put forward as an example of someone that wasn’t a natural half but work hard to develop into a brilliant 7. I’d say Storm are doing something very similar with Jerome Hughes.
System and game management.
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by Botman »

Just when i think the GH has reached its peak. Some how, someone finds a new way to take it up a notch
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by GreenMachine »

It amazes me to find people in 2021 that actually believe Tim Sheens, who played prop and second row, somehow developed the Raiders greatest ever halfback - Ricky Stuart.

Oh well....maybe we should hire Billy Slater to teach our fullbacks how to naturally ball play...
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by Northern Raider »

Fuifui Bradbrad wrote: May 12, 2021, 9:46 am I’ve never really given Brooks a second thought, since his best game was his debut. But I saw somewhere… either Reddit or Guru on Insta… that there’s an argument to be had that he’s better than he looks.

This guy argued if you look at his stats and Dally M polling, the theory is that he’s decent, but playing in a system not suited for him.

I’ve been meaning to look into it more, but I’ve been busy posting useless facts in the Line Lounge
Drawing a long bow saying he's a victim of their system. Tigers have built around him for several years now and he still falls short of a quality NRL half. He's just not that good.

I don't think he's any better than Sam Williams and I'd rather go that way for 2022 instead of signing Brooks.
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by SeeBee101 »

Northern Raider wrote: May 12, 2021, 1:25 pm
Fuifui Bradbrad wrote: May 12, 2021, 9:46 am I’ve never really given Brooks a second thought, since his best game was his debut. But I saw somewhere… either Reddit or Guru on Insta… that there’s an argument to be had that he’s better than he looks.

This guy argued if you look at his stats and Dally M polling, the theory is that he’s decent, but playing in a system not suited for him.

I’ve been meaning to look into it more, but I’ve been busy posting useless facts in the Line Lounge
Drawing a long bow saying he's a victim of their system. Tigers have built around him for several years now and he still falls short of a quality NRL half. He's just not that good.

I don't think he's any better than Sam Williams and I'd rather go that way for 2022 instead of signing Brooks.
Brooks has more try assists than both Williams and Wighton combined for the season. Brooks isn't the reason they continue to lose. Their terrible forward pack and second rowers are the main culprit.
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by Northern Raider »

SeeBee101 wrote: May 12, 2021, 1:42 pm
Northern Raider wrote: May 12, 2021, 1:25 pm
Fuifui Bradbrad wrote: May 12, 2021, 9:46 am I’ve never really given Brooks a second thought, since his best game was his debut. But I saw somewhere… either Reddit or Guru on Insta… that there’s an argument to be had that he’s better than he looks.

This guy argued if you look at his stats and Dally M polling, the theory is that he’s decent, but playing in a system not suited for him.

I’ve been meaning to look into it more, but I’ve been busy posting useless facts in the Line Lounge
Drawing a long bow saying he's a victim of their system. Tigers have built around him for several years now and he still falls short of a quality NRL half. He's just not that good.

I don't think he's any better than Sam Williams and I'd rather go that way for 2022 instead of signing Brooks.
Brooks has more try assists than both Williams and Wighton combined for the season. Brooks isn't the reason they continue to lose. Their terrible forward pack and second rowers are the main culprit.
If Try Assists was a catch all stat for success at halfback in the NRL then it would be a valid point. Sometimes stats don't paint the true picture. Brooks would be near top of the leaderboard if they kept stats on bad options.
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by afgtnk »

GreenMachine wrote: May 12, 2021, 1:25 pm It amazes me to find people in 2021 that actually believe Tim Sheens, who played prop and second row, somehow developed the Raiders greatest ever halfback - Ricky Stuart.

Oh well....maybe we should hire Billy Slater to teach our fullbacks how to naturally ball play...
Slater's actually a good example. Wasn't much of a ball player at all in his first few years at fullback - really had to work to develop it.

Does coaching get credit for that? I'd say a decent chunk. Still, you would need that raw ability to have something to develop in the first place. Bellamy and the Storm seem to be masters at that.
Last edited by afgtnk on May 12, 2021, 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by GreenMachine »

afgtnk wrote: May 12, 2021, 2:15 pm
GreenMachine wrote: May 12, 2021, 1:25 pm It amazes me to find people in 2021 that actually believe Tim Sheens, who played prop and second row, somehow developed the Raiders greatest ever halfback - Ricky Stuart.

Oh well....maybe we should hire Billy Slater to teach our fullbacks how to naturally ball play...
Slater's actually a good example. Wasn't much of a ball player at all in his first few years at fullback - really had to work to develop it.

Does coaching get credit for that? I'd say a decent chunk.
Slater, Cronk and Smith all had 3 things in common...

All could ball play.
All had work ethic
All played in arguably the best system.

2 of those 3 come naturally.

There is a reason why most of us say " be careful buying any Storm players who the Storm are happy to let go"....

Brodie Croft is a perfect example.
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by Luffto »

GreenMachine wrote: May 12, 2021, 2:20 pm
There is a reason why most of us say " be careful buying any Storm players who the Storm are happy to let go"....

Brodie Croft is a perfect example.
Could just cut the Bull and talk about players closer to home
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by afgtnk »

GreenMachine wrote: May 12, 2021, 2:20 pm
afgtnk wrote: May 12, 2021, 2:15 pm
GreenMachine wrote: May 12, 2021, 1:25 pm It amazes me to find people in 2021 that actually believe Tim Sheens, who played prop and second row, somehow developed the Raiders greatest ever halfback - Ricky Stuart.

Oh well....maybe we should hire Billy Slater to teach our fullbacks how to naturally ball play...
Slater's actually a good example. Wasn't much of a ball player at all in his first few years at fullback - really had to work to develop it.

Does coaching get credit for that? I'd say a decent chunk.
Slater, Cronk and Smith all had 3 things in common...

All could ball play.
All had work ethic
All played in arguably the best system.

2 of those 3 come naturally.

There is a reason why most of us say " be careful buying any Storm players who the Storm are happy to let go"....

Brodie Croft is a perfect example.
Like I said, Slater really didn't show signs of being a ball player in his early days. It came along as he got more experience.

I don't think Cronk was a very natural ball player either. When you look at times he played outside of the Storm structure for QLD and Australia, and the team was more reliant on him, I thought he struggled at times in his ability to create and drive the team compared to guys like Lockyer, Thurston, and Smith.
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by GreenMachine »

Luffto wrote: May 12, 2021, 2:25 pm
GreenMachine wrote: May 12, 2021, 2:20 pm
There is a reason why most of us say " be careful buying any Storm players who the Storm are happy to let go"....

Brodie Croft is a perfect example.
Could just cut the Bull and talk about players closer to home
?
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by GreenMachine »

afgtnk wrote: May 12, 2021, 2:25 pm
GreenMachine wrote: May 12, 2021, 2:20 pm
afgtnk wrote: May 12, 2021, 2:15 pm
GreenMachine wrote: May 12, 2021, 1:25 pm It amazes me to find people in 2021 that actually believe Tim Sheens, who played prop and second row, somehow developed the Raiders greatest ever halfback - Ricky Stuart.

Oh well....maybe we should hire Billy Slater to teach our fullbacks how to naturally ball play...
Slater's actually a good example. Wasn't much of a ball player at all in his first few years at fullback - really had to work to develop it.

Does coaching get credit for that? I'd say a decent chunk.
Slater, Cronk and Smith all had 3 things in common...

All could ball play.
All had work ethic
All played in arguably the best system.

2 of those 3 come naturally.

There is a reason why most of us say " be careful buying any Storm players who the Storm are happy to let go"....

Brodie Croft is a perfect example.
Like I said, Slater really didn't show signs of being a ball player in his early days. It came along as he got more experience.

I don't think Cronk was a very natural ball player either. When you look at times he played outside of the Storm structure for QLD and Australia, and the team was more reliant on him, I thought he struggled at times in his ability to create and drive the team compared to guys like Lockyer, Thurston, and Smith.
That's your opinion, but I'd argue both Slater and Cronk were excellent ball players.

Look at the amount of 'experience' Wighton has as a ball player...how would you rate his ball playing?

Experience in first grade is just that....players get better with experience. If they cannot naturally ball play, then you'll never see that eventuate...
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by afgtnk »

GreenMachine wrote: May 12, 2021, 2:29 pm
afgtnk wrote: May 12, 2021, 2:25 pm
GreenMachine wrote: May 12, 2021, 2:20 pm
afgtnk wrote: May 12, 2021, 2:15 pm
GreenMachine wrote: May 12, 2021, 1:25 pm It amazes me to find people in 2021 that actually believe Tim Sheens, who played prop and second row, somehow developed the Raiders greatest ever halfback - Ricky Stuart.

Oh well....maybe we should hire Billy Slater to teach our fullbacks how to naturally ball play...
Slater's actually a good example. Wasn't much of a ball player at all in his first few years at fullback - really had to work to develop it.

Does coaching get credit for that? I'd say a decent chunk.
Slater, Cronk and Smith all had 3 things in common...

All could ball play.
All had work ethic
All played in arguably the best system.

2 of those 3 come naturally.

There is a reason why most of us say " be careful buying any Storm players who the Storm are happy to let go"....

Brodie Croft is a perfect example.
Like I said, Slater really didn't show signs of being a ball player in his early days. It came along as he got more experience.

I don't think Cronk was a very natural ball player either. When you look at times he played outside of the Storm structure for QLD and Australia, and the team was more reliant on him, I thought he struggled at times in his ability to create and drive the team compared to guys like Lockyer, Thurston, and Smith.
That's your opinion, but I'd argue both Slater and Cronk were excellent ball players.

Look at the amount of 'experience' Wighton has as a ball player...how would you rate his ball playing?

Experience in first grade is just that....players get better with experience. If they cannot naturally ball play, then you'll never see that eventuate...
I think if we like Melbourne were highly drilled with multiple attacking plays, and then numerous variations of those individual attacking plays, Jack would look a lot better than he does now. George too.

Not much of what the Storm do seems to be ad-lib, because it doesn't need to be, and that extends right throughout Bellamy's coaching career. Look at the way Jarome Hughes has come on this season. There isn't a single person who can tell me that the way he's playing is solely as a result of natural ability, because he certainly wasn't playing like this before.
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by GreenMachine »

afgtnk wrote: May 12, 2021, 2:37 pm
GreenMachine wrote: May 12, 2021, 2:29 pm
afgtnk wrote: May 12, 2021, 2:25 pm
GreenMachine wrote: May 12, 2021, 2:20 pm
afgtnk wrote: May 12, 2021, 2:15 pm

Slater's actually a good example. Wasn't much of a ball player at all in his first few years at fullback - really had to work to develop it.

Does coaching get credit for that? I'd say a decent chunk.
Slater, Cronk and Smith all had 3 things in common...

All could ball play.
All had work ethic
All played in arguably the best system.

2 of those 3 come naturally.

There is a reason why most of us say " be careful buying any Storm players who the Storm are happy to let go"....

Brodie Croft is a perfect example.
Like I said, Slater really didn't show signs of being a ball player in his early days. It came along as he got more experience.

I don't think Cronk was a very natural ball player either. When you look at times he played outside of the Storm structure for QLD and Australia, and the team was more reliant on him, I thought he struggled at times in his ability to create and drive the team compared to guys like Lockyer, Thurston, and Smith.
That's your opinion, but I'd argue both Slater and Cronk were excellent ball players.

Look at the amount of 'experience' Wighton has as a ball player...how would you rate his ball playing?

Experience in first grade is just that....players get better with experience. If they cannot naturally ball play, then you'll never see that eventuate...
I think if we like Melbourne were drilled with multiple attacking plays, and then numerous variations of those individual attacking plays, Jack would look a lot better than he does now. George too.

Not much of what the Storm do seems to be ad-lib, or needed to be ad-lib, and that extends right throughout Bellamy's coaching career.
Melbourne have great systems...
It's why the plethora of average players look great at that club... A good system can unlock the best attributes from its players.
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by afgtnk »

'Systems' is really just great coaching and development, IMO.

After all, that's who designs, implements, and maintains the system.
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by GreenMachine »

afgtnk wrote: May 12, 2021, 2:48 pm 'Systems' is really just great coaching and development, IMO.

After all, that's who designs, implements, and maintains the system.
What I consider "Systems", are the processes that coaching puts in place to manage game situations...
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by Northern Raider »

GreenMachine wrote: May 12, 2021, 2:26 pm
Luffto wrote: May 12, 2021, 2:25 pm
GreenMachine wrote: May 12, 2021, 2:20 pm
There is a reason why most of us say " be careful buying any Storm players who the Storm are happy to let go"....

Brodie Croft is a perfect example.
Could just cut the Bull and talk about players closer to home
?
Think he means there are examples closer to home than Croft.
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by GreenMachine »

Northern Raider wrote: May 12, 2021, 2:55 pm
GreenMachine wrote: May 12, 2021, 2:26 pm
Luffto wrote: May 12, 2021, 2:25 pm
GreenMachine wrote: May 12, 2021, 2:20 pm
There is a reason why most of us say " be careful buying any Storm players who the Storm are happy to let go"....

Brodie Croft is a perfect example.
Could just cut the Bull and talk about players closer to home
?
Think he means there are examples closer to home than Croft.
I used Croft, because he played in a GF for Melbourne and at one stage was touted as the next Cronk...
Only to go to the "systemless" Bronco's and fall in a heap...
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by zim »

Botman wrote: May 12, 2021, 1:14 pm Just when i think the GH has reached its peak. Some how, someone finds a new way to take it up a notch
Right?! It's certainly a melting pot of different takes.
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by mobrulesall »

Reynolds confirmed to the Broncos.
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by mobrulesall »

Also - does Cappy's history with Johnson come into play here? No better man to judge his suitability.

Don't see Johnson being suitable personally.
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by Botman »

If development didnt exist the superstars in lower grades wouldnt flame out at the alarming level they do
Im gobsmacked anyone thinks that athletic development from coaches isnt a thing
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by GreenMachine »

Botman wrote: May 12, 2021, 3:31 pm If development didnt exist the superstars in lower grades wouldnt flame out at the alarming level they do
Im gobsmacked anyone thinks that athletic development from coaches isnt a thing
What does athletic development in lower grades have to do with first grade?
Did Bellyache teach Slater how to grubber kick and run fast in first grade?
I'm gobsmacked for you!

Riddle me this...

On page 1 of this thread, you endorse Milford as an option...

By page two of this thread (after canvassing the views of other posters who correctly identify this as a **** option) you back pedal faster than a recording of the Tour De France on rewind...

It's gobsmacking!
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Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by Botman »

It's already been highlighted how much Slater's game evolved (nay DEVELOPED!!!) under Bellemy from his early days when he was a very ordinary ball player, to then becoming arguably the best in the game for a fullback.
It's again been highlighted with Cronk and Hughes DEVELOPMENT in FG as footballer playing the halves. Good coaches like Bellemy, Robinson, Bennett, and guys like that continue take talented kids and develop their game into good FG footballers... other coaches seem to take equally talented kids and get nothing out of them. It's not a coincidence. Coaching is ultimately to be a teacher, and those guys understand how to take these guys and their raw athletic abilities, and then teach and develop them into quality footballers

if you can see that... christ... 30 years did you say? Thirty? And athletic development apparently stops when you hit the highest level of your sport. At that point further development has nothing to do with coaches? Good **** lord.
You really have taken this thing up to 11.


Re Milford.
I never endorsed him. In fact i said i think he'd be a disaster, and went on to explain that i think he's cooked and beyond saving.
What I had said in the affirmative of him was i believe he'd open to returning to this club and that i can see a club, and maybe that's ours talking themselves into him thinking they can fix him, because there is such huge potential upside on the guy if you can fix him.

What i think the club might do/consider doing and the reasons they would consider them is completely separate to my own personal views on the player
User avatar
GreenMachine
Jason Croker
Posts: 4264
Joined: April 13, 2005, 2:22 pm
Favourite Player: Laurie Daley

Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by GreenMachine »

Botman wrote: May 12, 2021, 4:04 pm It's already been highlighted how much Slater's game evolved (nay DEVELOPED!!!) under Bellemy from his early days when he was a very ordinary ball player, to then becoming arguably the best in the game.
It's again been highlighted with Cronk and Hughes DEVELOPMENT in FG as footballer playing the halves.

if you can see that... christ... 30 years did you say? Thirty? And athletic development apparently stops when you hit the highest level of your sport. At that point further development has nothing to do with coaches? Good **** lord.
You really have taken this thing up to 11.


Re Milford.
I never endorsed him. In fact i said i think he'd be a disaster, and went on to explain that i think he's cooked and beyond saving.
What I had said in the affirmative of him was believe he'd open to returning to the club and that i can see a club talking themselves into him thinking they can fix him, because if they can fix him, this is a 26 year old with sky high talent.

What i think the club might do/consider doing and the reasons they would consider them is completely separate to my own personal views on the player
:roflmao

Proof reading your own posts isn't working for you....go back and take a look....you change your mind the moment the mob gathers :roflmao

And no...the antiquated belief that a first grade coach can develop a player is ..well...antiquated.

First grade coaches teach their teams the systems they want implemented to win football games. It's why we "crash ball" while other teams "block play"....etc

You might be surprised to learn this, but your genetics will determine whether you will "run fast" or "think quickly on your feet"...or have a big kick in your kitbag....these are not taught. They either unlock with expereince or you never have them in the first place.

But please, do tell me why Ricky never bothered to teach Sezer how to throw a cut out pass....or Jack for that matter....

By your logic, Ricky (who was great at throwing cut out passes) should be spending an hour or two with Jack teaching him how to throw them?

Or perhaps an hour teaching Jack not to kick the ball out on the full??? :roflmao

Your hilarious...
SeeBee101
David Grant
Posts: 768
Joined: February 13, 2017, 7:43 am
Favourite Player: Josh Hodgson

Re: 2022 New halfback?

Post by SeeBee101 »

Reynolds is gone. Thoughts on Hodgo to 7 if we can't get anyone sufficient on the market. He still has game smarts and a good kicking game. Could be a decent option as long as we cover his defensive issues.
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