What does our next rebuild look like?

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LastRaider
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What does our next rebuild look like?

Post by LastRaider »

With our performance tapering off in 2021, player unrest and our backline stocks looking depleted, a rebuild looks imminent. If that is the case I’m interested to see who’s in and who’s out from the GH and where and how we recruit.

Backline is in need of major repair across all positions and the forward pack needs rejuvenation. Senior Players to retain I’m thinking are

Wighton
Starling
Guler
Horse
Young
Kris
Tapine
Papalli

I believe we need to spend big and recruit a marque player in the Spine.


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Last edited by LastRaider on May 3, 2021, 7:16 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Danaman137
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Re: What does our next rebuild look like?

Post by Danaman137 »

I’d like to keep Charnze and play him at centre with a fresh fullback signing.


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LastRaider
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Re: What does our next rebuild look like?

Post by LastRaider »

Danaman137 wrote:I’d like to keep Charnze and play him at centre with a fresh fullback signing.


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I could get behind that.


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Botman
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Re: What does our next rebuild look like?

Post by Botman »

I think the next era of Raiders football needs a heavy focus on a few key attributes:

- speed... cant not have it anymore, specifically in the back 3. Need it at all three of those spots
- mobility in the middle... think we're on top of this tbh and the way we recruit and the sort of players we go for, i think we'll be fine. Just need to continue there
- tackle breakers on the edge... it's just an easier way to create points
- ball playing fullback... for mine, the second most important thing you need behind a good hooker to win a comp these days
- sticking solid... goes without saying, we need to stick more solidly
- bleeding green... before you pull on the jumper, you should be given a fatal wound... we need to find out firstly if you bleed green, and secondly how long you'll bleed green for
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GO;
Billy Walker
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Re: What does our next rebuild look like?

Post by Billy Walker »

LastRaider wrote: May 3, 2021, 7:23 pm
Danaman137 wrote:I’d like to keep Charnze and play him at centre with a fresh fullback signing.


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I could get behind that.


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Is he currently on centres money or fullback money? If he’s on FB money I can’t see him taking a cut and the last thing we need is to in a situation where we are paying overs for a 3 or 4 again.

If the price is right I can get behind CNK as centre as well.
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Re: What does our next rebuild look like?

Post by Danaman137 »

Billy Walker wrote:
LastRaider wrote: May 3, 2021, 7:23 pm
Danaman137 wrote:I’d like to keep Charnze and play him at centre with a fresh fullback signing.


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I could get behind that.


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Is he currently on centres money or fullback money? If he’s on FB money I can’t see him taking a cut and the last thing we need is to in a situation where we are paying overs for a 3 or 4 again.

If the price is right I can get behind CNK as centre as well.
I think he is still on quite a modest deal from memory. Upgraded from his 2019 contract but I’d say around the 450-500k mark? I wouldn’t be against paying someone of his caliber that to play centre. Then have one of Kris, Timoko or HSS on the other side on a relatively rookie deal.


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Re: What does our next rebuild look like?

Post by The Nickman »

Botman wrote:I think the next era of Raiders football needs a heavy focus on a few key attributes:

- speed... cant not have it anymore, specifically in the back 3. Need it at all three of those spots
- mobility in the middle... think we're on top of this tbh and the way we recruit and the sort of players we go for, i think we'll be fine. Just need to continue there
- tackle breakers on the edge... it's just an easier way to create points
- ball playing fullback... for mine, the second most important thing you need behind a good hooker to win a comp these days
- sticking solid... goes without saying, we need to stick more solidly
- bleeding green... before you pull on the jumper, you should be given a fatal wound... we need to find out firstly if you bleed green, and secondly how long you'll bleed green for
Terrific post. I feel like some of those items are “nice haves” and you could probably do without them, but the last two are crucial and absolutely the most important.
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Re: What does our next rebuild look like?

Post by Billy Walker »

Danaman137 wrote: May 3, 2021, 7:37 pm
Billy Walker wrote:
LastRaider wrote: May 3, 2021, 7:23 pm
Danaman137 wrote:I’d like to keep Charnze and play him at centre with a fresh fullback signing.


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I could get behind that.


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Is he currently on centres money or fullback money? If he’s on FB money I can’t see him taking a cut and the last thing we need is to in a situation where we are paying overs for a 3 or 4 again.

If the price is right I can get behind CNK as centre as well.
I think he is still on quite a modest deal from memory. Upgraded from his 2019 contract but I’d say around the 450-500k mark? I wouldn’t be against paying someone of his caliber that to play centre. Then have one of Kris, Timoko or HSS on the other side on a relatively rookie deal.


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That is value for potentially a good centre and a very good fullback cover. I’m onboard.

Also onboard with Botman’s analysis above and think the correct approach is to start with what skills/qualities you want before trying to match players
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Re: What does our next rebuild look like?

Post by Damoni »

Raiders 22
1. Dufty****
2. Raps
3. CNK
4. Kris
5. Savage
6. Wighton
7. Williams
8. Paps
9. Starling
10. Taps
11. Liam Martin***
12. CHN
13. Whitehead (Ball playing role)

14. Trevilyan
15. Horse
16. Young
17. James
18. Sutton
19. Guler
20. Esera
21. HSS
22. Timoko
23. Hoppa

New signings......
- Martin reminds me a lot of Bateman, aggressive and rips in. Also has connection to the club
- Dufty - much prefer him over Hynes gotta sign someone with express speed

Other notes
- Whitehead will add another dimension to our attack and at lock we can get him involved more
- Look to play with more offloads with Paps, Taps and Horse being able to make that happen with guys like Starling and Dufty playing off the back of that
- Have flexibility to field a more agile pack if required starting Martin, Young, CHN and Starling
- No more forwards required we have plenty

Who can go......
- Hodgson ($800k)
- Sia ($200k)
- Lui ($200k)
- Croker ($600k)
- Havili ($200k)
- Scott ($450k)

Cash freed up is enough to cover new signings
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Re: What does our next rebuild look like?

Post by Lucy »

The Nickman wrote:
Botman wrote:I think the next era of Raiders football needs a heavy focus on a few key attributes:

- speed... cant not have it anymore, specifically in the back 3. Need it at all three of those spots
- mobility in the middle... think we're on top of this tbh and the way we recruit and the sort of players we go for, i think we'll be fine. Just need to continue there
- tackle breakers on the edge... it's just an easier way to create points
- ball playing fullback... for mine, the second most important thing you need behind a good hooker to win a comp these days
- sticking solid... goes without saying, we need to stick more solidly
- bleeding green... before you pull on the jumper, you should be given a fatal wound... we need to find out firstly if you bleed green, and secondly how long you'll bleed green for
Terrific post. I feel like some of those items are “nice haves” and you could probably do without them, but the last two are crucial and absolutely the most important.
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Re: What does our next rebuild look like?

Post by Botman »

Rocky Stewart deserves the full support of the fans... and board.
CREATE PROCEDURE BotMan_Post AS
SELECT * FROM Previous_Post
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Re: What does our next rebuild look like?

Post by Finchy »

What will happen: I think Papa, Taps, GWilly, and Hodgo will request and be granted a release by the end of the year (or sooner). Papa and Taps because they are clearly unhappy for some reason, GWilly homesick, and Hodgo is no longer the best hooker in the club, terrible defender, and a ball hog who's starving the halves and impacting team performance negatively. Lui, Soliola, Rapa won't be renewed.

What we need: An organising half, two powerful and quick outside backs (don't really care if they're centres or wingers, just need somebody in the BJ or Sivo mold who can steamroll people when needed and actually make yards out of our own end or finish off a line break), and rep quality replacements for Papa and Taps in the front row.
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Re: What does our next rebuild look like?

Post by Fuifui Bradbrad »

Botman wrote:I think the next era of Raiders football needs a heavy focus on a few key attributes:

- speed... cant not have it anymore, specifically in the back 3. Need it at all three of those spots
- mobility in the middle... think we're on top of this tbh and the way we recruit and the sort of players we go for, i think we'll be fine. Just need to continue there
- tackle breakers on the edge... it's just an easier way to create points
- ball playing fullback... for mine, the second most important thing you need behind a good hooker to win a comp these days
- sticking solid... goes without saying, we need to stick more solidly
- bleeding green... before you pull on the jumper, you should be given a fatal wound... we need to find out firstly if you bleed green, and secondly how long you'll bleed green for
I agree with all of this. The only exception to the bleeding green rule would be whether they celebrated their 18th or 21st at the Mean Fiddler.
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Re: What does our next rebuild look like?

Post by kiwi raider »

Jeeez some people are being very harsh on josh hodgson. Is he really a "terrible" defender? Average i'd say but not terrible.
I reckon any chance of the raiders doing anything really meaningful over the next 2 years relies quite heavily on both Hodgson and Starling playing significant roles.
Last edited by kiwi raider on May 3, 2021, 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What does our next rebuild look like?

Post by Botman »

Fuifui Bradbrad wrote: May 3, 2021, 8:15 pm I agree with all of this. The only exception to the bleeding green rule would be whether they celebrated their 18th or 21st at the Mean Fiddler.
Christ... the Fiddler... i wish i could say it brings back memories, but it doesnt, despite the fact i spent probably well over 1000 hours of my life at the venue
They were reportedly good times though... gooood times.
CREATE PROCEDURE BotMan_Post AS
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Finchy
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Re: What does our next rebuild look like?

Post by Finchy »

kiwi raider wrote: May 3, 2021, 8:25 pm Jeeez some people are being very harsh on josh hodgson. Is he really a "terrible" defender? Average i'd say but not terrible.
I reckon any chance of the raiders doing anything really meaningful over the next 2 years relies quite heavily on both Hodgson and Starling playing significant roles.
I think he was either first or second for most missed tackles after 9 rounds last year before he got injured. Haven't seen this years stats, but yes, he's terrible.

EDIT: Just checked for this year, he's in the top 10 for missed tackles, having played two less games than those above him. Not good reading.
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Re: What does our next rebuild look like?

Post by LastRaider »

Well come November we can start talking to 2023 off contract players and of course 2022 players now

Marque fullbacks available

Kalyn Ponga
Ryan Papenhuyzen
Joseph Suaalii (unproven at NRL but has big wraps)


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Re: What does our next rebuild look like?

Post by BadnMean »

kiwi raider wrote: May 3, 2021, 8:25 pm Jeeez some people are being very harsh on josh hodgson. Is he really a "terrible" defender? Average i'd say but not terrible.
I reckon any chance of the raiders doing anything really meaningful over the next 2 years relies quite heavily on both Hodgson and Starling playing significant roles.
Picture Hodgson making a tackle...
Was he leaping into the air, trying to tackle over the ball instead of up and under and then getting bounced completely off or just clinging on while the runner barrels on unimpeded, drawing in 3 more tacklers?
Yeah that’s the one.

Laterally he’s worse. And that was before the 2nd knee reco.

It’s the reason the ‘Hodgo to lock’ and ‘Hodgo to halves’ brain farts got abandoned years ago.

He’s a poor defender. Just is- weak and awful technique. Starling is small with great technique and mobility. Havilii is a battleship with good contact and not great mobility.

As a middle defender we carry him as he runs so much else and was the 2nd best hooker in the old game vs stolid defences when he had 2 knees. But that upside is yesterday now. Like Campo after 2 knees and Croker 1 year into his absurd contract.

It’s not enjoyable but it’s true.
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Re: What does our next rebuild look like?

Post by BadnMean »

kiwi raider wrote: May 3, 2021, 8:25 pm Jeeez some people are being very harsh on josh hodgson. Is he really a "terrible" defender? Average i'd say but not terrible.
I reckon any chance of the raiders doing anything really meaningful over the next 2 years relies quite heavily on both Hodgson and Starling playing significant roles.
Picture Hodgson making a tackle...
Was he leaping into the air, trying to tackle over the ball instead of up and under and then getting bounced completely off or just clinging on while the runner barrels on unimpeded, drawing in 3 more tacklers?
Yeah that’s the one.

Laterally he’s worse. And that was before the 2nd knee reco.

It’s the reason the ‘Hodgo to lock’ and ‘Hodgo to halves’ brain farts got abandoned years ago.

He’s a poor defender. Just is- weak and awful technique. Starling is small with great technique and mobility. Havilii is a battleship with good contact and not great mobility.

As a middle defender we carry him as he runs so much else and was the 2nd best hooker in the old game vs stolid defences when he had 2 knees. But that upside is yesterday now. Like Campo after 2 knees and Croker 1 year into his absurd contract.

It’s not enjoyable but it’s true.
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Re: What does our next rebuild look like?

Post by Botman »

Dont we all hate pants?
CREATE PROCEDURE BotMan_Post AS
SELECT * FROM Previous_Post
EXEC quote_post
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GO;
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GreenMachine
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Re: What does our next rebuild look like?

Post by GreenMachine »

Recruit some speed and power in the backline and more mobility in the forwards.

Hynes or Dufty for fullback
Martin second row.
Coates or Niu or Issako or Lomax if the Dragqueens bite..
I’d take a stab at Foggerty for halfback or May from Penrith...both are not “organising” but the pickings are slim.

I’d release Hodgson to Brisbane if they want him (maybe in a player trade?)

Goodbyes to Croker, Rapana, SIA, Scott (just pay the freight) possibly Havilli and maybe Lui as it seems he might be the root cause of why the players are unhappy.

Maybe:

1. Dufty / Hynes
2. Coates
3. CNK
4. Kris
5. Savage
6. Wighton
7. Foggerty
8. Papalli
9. Starling
10. Tapine
11. CHN
12. Martin
13. Whitehead

14. Young
15. Sutton
16. Guler
17. Timoko
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Re: What does our next rebuild look like?

Post by Finchy »

EDIT
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Re: What does our next rebuild look like?

Post by BadnMean »

Finchy wrote: May 3, 2021, 8:32 pm
kiwi raider wrote: May 3, 2021, 8:25 pm Jeeez some people are being very harsh on josh hodgson. Is he really a "terrible" defender? Average i'd say but not terrible.
I reckon any chance of the raiders doing anything really meaningful over the next 2 years relies quite heavily on both Hodgson and Starling playing significant roles.
I think he was either first or second for most missed tackles after 9 rounds last year before he got injured. Haven't seen this years stats, but yes, he's terrible.

EDIT: Just checked for this year, he's in the top 10 for missed tackles, having played two less games than those above him. Not good reading.
Nah mate statistics don’t count. GH posters are way to sophisticated to be guided by them. They can artfully describe why all statistics should be shot into the sun and that even though when our team and players are worse in stats when the team does poorly...

They are so clever they can still talk the stats down. So even when there is correlation- it’s “yeah but” and causation... sacrilege.

Two weeks ago I could come here and read how our back 5 missing more tackles than others was no big deal. Their contact wax so great it was pinballing attackers into oblivion anyway.

Now I can read Cotric is no great shakes and would hardly improve our back 5 anyway.

The mind boggles.
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Re: What does our next rebuild look like?

Post by Raider47 »

Surely Papalii doesn't leave- he just re-signed and is a club legend. I understand he is going through a tough patch but surely not unless I have recently missed something dramatic?
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Re: What does our next rebuild look like?

Post by Finchy »

Raider47 wrote: May 3, 2021, 9:14 pm Surely Papalii doesn't leave- he just re-signed and is a club legend. I understand he is going through a tough patch but surely not unless I have recently missed something dramatic?
EDIT. With him dropped and unmotivated, and his references last year to wanting to be closer to family back in QLD, and Kevvie rebuilding the Broncos roster, the planets are aligning for a release request. I can feel it.
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Re: What does our next rebuild look like?

Post by greeneyed »

Opposition teams run at Hodgson for two reasons: to tire him out, and because he doesn't consistently stick in a tackle. He does a whole heap of tackling, he in the middle, but the opposition teams certainly test him out. And he misses a whole lot of tackles or is ineffective. It is a bit like Elliott Whitehead. He tackles a lot but... The thing is, both players bring other things to the team.
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Re: What does our next rebuild look like?

Post by Botman »

Josh Hodgson is not a very good middle third defender in this stage of his career. He's fine, he specialises as being a first contact defender up high, and that leads to a lot fluff. But he's not a strong defender anymore (frankly he never was). His game and what he brings to the team is not about that.

What does truly boggle the mind is posters who are either wilfully misrepresenting the argument, or flat out do not understand the discussion around the argument, portraying people who are debating the merits and relevance of some rudimentary statistics as dismissal of statistics writ large. Genuinely hate to see it.
CREATE PROCEDURE BotMan_Post AS
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Re: What does our next rebuild look like?

Post by BJ »

You can’t do a Sydney club style recruitment rebuild in Canberra. Where you just simply take on a player from another Sydney club.

If a player is married or in a serious relationship they just won’t pack up the whole family and move to a whole new city. Often these girls are from Sydney and have jobs and families they don’t want to leave without a good reason.

Too many people think getting a player into Canberra is like SuperCoach and you can just choose whoever. Players come to Canberra either for an opportunity or for good money. How many players with at least a season of NRL have moved to Canberra in 40 seasons. My guess is less than 2 a year on average.

The cost of buying and selling houses or even renting in Canberra is very high. This is not a rebuild through bulk recruitment kind of club. It’s always been about juniors, outside the box recruitment like Queensland, Islanders and Poms, players looking for a second chance/opportunity.

At least we have good mountain biking facilities.
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Re: What does our next rebuild look like?

Post by Fuifui Bradbrad »

Yeah agree with BJ. If we go for a rebuild, it’s going to take longer to get the players to move to Canberra.

At least this time we’ve had a bit more success to use as a carrot
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Re: What does our next rebuild look like?

Post by TongueFTW »

We need to rely on recruitment at junior level, and be a club juniors are keen to go to. We had a good reputation in the past in this space. We have a bunch of young players at the moment (Rushton, Esera, Mooney, Savage, Webb, possibly Treviliyan and Schneider, and others) who look like they could step up, we need to keep filling our sides with quality from around country Australia, UK and NZ. Jersey Flegg needs to come back next year, I understand why we didn’t have it this year, but we need all 3 grades - SG, Flegg and NSW Cup. The club makes enough money through the various leagues clubs to afford this.

Having good juniors allows you to essentially never pay overs for a player. If someone like Cotric leaves, theoretically you replace them with a cheaper junior who is almost at that level, so your cap doesn’t get out of whack.

We also need to continue to take chances on these players at NRL level, not wait too long before we give them a debut.

I feel like the club was scarred by Dugan/Carney/Milford - the attitude should just be “next player up”. You aren’t guaranteed success, but this sort of focus gives us the best chance (plus, as a fan, I love watching players through the grades). Our two best players, Papalii and Wighton, were the result of junior recruitment.
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Re: What does our next rebuild look like?

Post by Knotincelly22 »

greeneyed wrote: May 3, 2021, 10:00 pm Opposition teams run at Hodgson for two reasons: to tire him out, and because he doesn't consistently stick in a tackle. He does a whole heap of tackling, he in the middle, but the opposition teams certainly test him out. And he misses a whole lot of tackles or is ineffective. It is a bit like Elliott Whitehead. He tackles a lot but... The thing is, both players bring other things to the team.
Is he trying to tackle them or steal the ball though? :hmmm
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Re: What does our next rebuild look like?

Post by GreenMachine »

You can recruit through the junior levels and add a few first graders at the same time.
And before you cite Canberra for living expenses, Sydney isn’t exactly bargain basement.
Fact is Your paying a premium for the first grade players you want unless the incumbent club wants them off the books.
So we can ‘money ball it’ to an extent but may not necessarily end up with what we need.
Alternatively we could launch a serious offer at a player we think is worth it in the long run and go from there.
Or we can stay in freeze mode and wait until the house is completely burnt to the ground before we do anything...
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Re: What does our next rebuild look like?

Post by LastRaider »

TongueFTW wrote:We need to rely on recruitment at junior level, and be a club juniors are keen to go to. We had a good reputation in the past in this space. We have a bunch of young players at the moment (Rushton, Esera, Mooney, Savage, Webb, possibly Treviliyan and Schneider, and others) who look like they could step up, we need to keep filling our sides with quality from around country Australia, UK and NZ. Jersey Flegg needs to come back next year, I understand why we didn’t have it this year, but we need all 3 grades - SG, Flegg and NSW Cup. The club makes enough money through the various leagues clubs to afford this.

Having good juniors allows you to essentially never pay overs for a player. If someone like Cotric leaves, theoretically you replace them with a cheaper junior who is almost at that level, so your cap doesn’t get out of whack.

We also need to continue to take chances on these players at NRL level, not wait too long before we give them a debut.

I feel like the club was scarred by Dugan/Carney/Milford - the attitude should just be “next player up”. You aren’t guaranteed success, but this sort of focus gives us the best chance (plus, as a fan, I love watching players through the grades).
I agree with this but I don’t think Stuart’s strength is developing junior’s unfortunately. Stuart’s coaching methods are best suited to players that are developed and can handle his ways.


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Knotincelly22
Terry Campese
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Re: What does our next rebuild look like?

Post by Knotincelly22 »

Valemei is off contract also and I'd be making sure he doesn't go anywhere. He's raw but he could be anything.
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gergreg
Ricky Stuart
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Re: What does our next rebuild look like?

Post by gergreg »

The more I think about it, we are already smack bang in the middle of a rebuild... not next year. You've got guys coming to the end of their careers - Hodgson, Croker, Lui, Sia and you've got guys ready to step up into their positions - Starling, Kris, Guler, Horsburgh, Hudson Young.

Those young guys are probably on peanuts comparatively and if you don't upgrade their deals they will go to a club that will. Tapine is potentially the odd one out. He is in his prime so doesn't fit in either group but Hudson Young could play 13 at half the price. He may not be at his level yet but maybe the savings make it worth it. I'd be gutted if we lost Papa, he deserves to be a one club player but look at how much he costs and then look at our (middle) depth. Somethings got to give.

We've all banged on about our lack of speed but as others have pointed out this isn't supercoach where you just swap players in and out of your squad. The club has probably also recognised our deficiencies and is resolving it, or trying to the best way it can. We don't know if the club has asked a few of these highly paid players to take a paycut and the wives are (allegedly) lashing out publicly for other reasons instead of speaking up about the real issue.
Shoving it in your face since 2017
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