Raiders and Knights the biggest losers in proposed conference system

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Raiders and Knights the biggest losers in proposed conference system

Post by greeneyed »

Canberra Raiders and Newcastle Knights the biggest losers in proposed conference system

The Canberra Raiders and Newcastle Knights are seemingly the biggest losers in an proposal for a two conference system. The Raiders and Knights have been mooted to participate in a non-Sydney conference that would include the Broncos, Titans, Cowboys, Storm and Warriors.

The Knights and Raiders would be required to make more long-distance away trips under the plan, while being forced to sell more games against non-Sydney clubs to home fans.

Canberra CEO Don Furner was diplomatic when contacted for his reaction, although the club is privately known to be against the idea.

“It’s not worth commenting about because there’s nothing official that has come out,” Furner said.

“Someone has run an idea up the flagpole and that’s all it is. Every couple of years someone throws up an idea like this.”

Read more: https://www.smh.com.au/sport/nrl/raider ... 57n3f.html
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Re: Raiders and Knights the biggest losers in proposed conference system

Post by LastRaider »

This is just ridiculous, it’s not like we are a 24 team competition. If the game wants to generate more TV revenue, put More NSW and QLD cup games on TV. Or even better put Jersey Fleg or SG Ball games on, a bit like college football in the US. As a club fan I would love to see our juniors coming through which is difficult to see when you live in Sydney.




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Re: Raiders and Knights the biggest losers in proposed conference system

Post by The Nickman »

Do we really get punished THAT much more under this system than the existing one? I mean, currently we always get an away game against the Titans, Cowboys and Warriors, the only significant difference under this new system would be we start to get away games against Brisbane again.

Surely that’s a good thing? I really miss the Brisbane games when we used to get them regularly.

I really don’t see that our travel increases significantly under this new system when we already make the longest road trips (except one) every season anyway.
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Re: Raiders and Knights the biggest losers in proposed conference system

Post by FROG »

I wasn't so sure about this until I read how it would work. I actually don't mind the idea. In some ways I think it would be fairer as each team in each conference will play each opponent the same number of times. As a Sydney based raiders fan it would Rob me of some opportunities to watch games near by but there are still going to be 9 games against Sydney opponents, presumably half of which will be away so it doesn't feel all that bad
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Re: Raiders and Knights the biggest losers in proposed conference system

Post by FROG »

The Nickman wrote: April 29, 2021, 6:23 am Do we really get punished THAT much more under this system than the existing one? I mean, currently we always get an away game against the Titans, Cowboys and Warriors, the only significant difference under this new system would be we start to get away games against Brisbane again.

Surely that’s a good thing? I really miss the Brisbane games when we used to get them regularly.

I really don’t see that our travel increases significantly under this new system when we already make the longest road trips (except one) every season anyway.
I agree NM. I wonder however if the concern is that we will lose revenue because interstate fans will be less inclined to travel to a game at our home ground. I think being a successful team has a far greater bearing on crowd numbers so that should be our sole focus
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Re: Raiders and Knights the biggest losers in proposed conference system

Post by The Nickman »

Looking at this year’s draw, we get seven Sydney games. So under the new system we’d lose two of them (on a “bad” year when we get 12 home games) and we’d lose three of them (on a “good” year when we get 13 home games).

And we’d gain away games against the two Brisbane teams (I’d like that and prefer them to Sydney games) and the new New Zealand team.

Really doesn’t seem that bad to me.
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Re: Raiders and Knights the biggest losers in proposed conference system

Post by The Nickman »

FROG wrote:
The Nickman wrote: April 29, 2021, 6:23 am Do we really get punished THAT much more under this system than the existing one? I mean, currently we always get an away game against the Titans, Cowboys and Warriors, the only significant difference under this new system would be we start to get away games against Brisbane again.

Surely that’s a good thing? I really miss the Brisbane games when we used to get them regularly.

I really don’t see that our travel increases significantly under this new system when we already make the longest road trips (except one) every season anyway.
I agree NM. I wonder however if the concern is that we will lose revenue because interstate fans will be less inclined to travel to a game at our home ground. I think being a successful team has a far greater bearing on crowd numbers so that should be our sole focus
Agreed. Our crowd numbers have been significantly up the last few seasons, I think it is largely unrelated to how many Sydney teams are coming to visit.
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Re: Raiders and Knights the biggest losers in proposed conference system

Post by greeneyed »

The current system of determining the draw is already unfair for out of Sydney clubs. This proposal institutionalises and worsens the travel and financial disadvantage for out of Sydney clubs. The NRL has a responsibility to run the competition on an even handed basis... to ensure there’s a level playing field.

It is ridiculous to have “three grand finals” with just 18 teams. Already The Daily Telegraph is “selling” the idea on Twitter this way:

“The NRL conference plan would reinvigorate rugby league in Sydney creating more derbies and a championship more valuable than the premiership itself.”

Remember, Phil Gould and Phil Rothfield came up with this. Deep down, what they want is a return to the Sydney competition and the primacy of the suburban Sydney competition. They’re already promising that their Sydney “championship” would be more valuable than the premiership.

What the proposal is saying is that there must always be a Sydney team in the ultimate Grand Final... and two teams from out of Sydney can never play in the Grand Final again.

It is essentially a proposal designed to financially protect Sydney teams with unsustainably low supporter bases from one town, out of Sydney teams. It is inimical to a proper national competition.

If there’s a conference system, which may be necessary in some form if there are 18 teams, it should not be determined on geography. It should run on seedings, from the previous season’s ladder placements. It should change every year, ensuring that one conference is not stronger than another. It should constantly mix up the travel burdens.
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Re: Raiders and Knights the biggest losers in proposed conference system

Post by Botman »

I dont think anything like this proposed system will ever get up in the NRL, which is a shame as i've advocated for something like it for a long time.
Im also in agreement with Nickman that this wouldnt change the game for us much... our geographical situation dictates we're going to end up doing a ton of travel regardless

I dont think the proposed idea is what i'd want, i think 3 conferences makes more sense, and i think the additional teams should be Brisbane 2 and Perth myself... but im glad the game is at least thinking about this stuff... i truly believe long term, this is the way to manufacture long standing rivalries and showcase games that will help drive revenue for the league up
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Re: Raiders and Knights the biggest losers in proposed conference system

Post by The Nickman »

If anything, this concept gives the Raiders an easier path into the "super bowl"-type grand final than what we have already.

Essentially same amount of travel, but looking back at the last five seasons (2016-2020), we make the finals every single time. Yes, including the dreaded 2017/18, we make the Top 4 of our conference every single season.

This format actually REWARDS us for our additional travel over the one we currently have, it doesn't punish us.

It's bizarre that so many on here are painting it as the opposite, but not surprising.
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Re: Raiders and Knights the biggest losers in proposed conference system

Post by The Nickman »

Jesus christ, even 2015 we make the playoffs!
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Re: Raiders and Knights the biggest losers in proposed conference system

Post by Botman »

I think there is a lot to be said about the game staying true to it's traditional roots and structures, and i think the push back against stuff like this is always rooted in that mindset... But the sport has to continue to grow and evolve to maximise itself...

This sort of thing, an NRL draft... these are in my mind inevitable. Just a matter of when they occur. Now is as good a time as any
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Re: Raiders and Knights the biggest losers in proposed conference system

Post by Canberra Milk »

Hate it. I want to play against all teams
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Re: Raiders and Knights the biggest losers in proposed conference system

Post by papabear »

LastRaider wrote: April 29, 2021, 6:15 am This is just ridiculous, it’s not like we are a 24 team competition. If the game wants to generate more TV revenue, put More NSW and QLD cup games on TV. Or even better put Jersey Fleg or SG Ball games on, a bit like college football in the US. As a club fan I would love to see our juniors coming through which is difficult to see when you live in Sydney.




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NSW / QLD cup games do not generate tv revenue.

Although I see it as bad for the raiders, overall I think it would be good for the game.
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Re: Raiders and Knights the biggest losers in proposed conference system

Post by The Nickman »

Canberra Milk wrote: April 29, 2021, 9:21 am Hate it. I want to play against all teams
We do play against all teams, it's honestly not much different to what we have now!

Only difference is we're rewarded on the competition table for our additional travel. Right now we just get punished for it, as do the Warriors and the Qld teams.
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Re: Raiders and Knights the biggest losers in proposed conference system

Post by the bone »

There's a strong argument that it's fairer than the current system. You are competing on the ladder with teams that have the same draw as you; compare that to the current draw which is a lucky dip in terms of who plays who twice.
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Re: Raiders and Knights the biggest losers in proposed conference system

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the bone wrote: April 29, 2021, 9:40 am There's a strong argument that it's fairer than the current system. You are competing on the ladder with teams that have the same draw as you; compare that to the current draw which is a lucky dip in terms of who plays who twice.
And the current system isn't even lucky dip. Have a look, we play generally the same teams twice every year... we always get a Cowboys, Warriors, Titans away game. Only difference is we'll start to get Brisbane away games again, for some reason we don't get them anymore (and I for one hate that!).

Agree with everything else you said though, this is objectively a much fairer system.
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Re: Raiders and Knights the biggest losers in proposed conference system

Post by the bone »

The Nickman wrote: April 29, 2021, 9:42 am
the bone wrote: April 29, 2021, 9:40 am There's a strong argument that it's fairer than the current system. You are competing on the ladder with teams that have the same draw as you; compare that to the current draw which is a lucky dip in terms of who plays who twice.
And the current system isn't even lucky dip. Have a look, we play generally the same teams twice every year... we always get a Cowboys, Warriors, Titans away game. Only difference is we'll start to get Brisbane away games again, for some reason we don't get them anymore (and I for one hate that!).

Agree with everything else you said though, this is objectively a much fairer system.
True that; the twice-played teams are generally the same, as the NRL looks to maximize Sydney rivalries. So a better way to put, is that a conference system formulates the draw in a logical and transparent way, and then the standings split the teams based on who has the same draw.
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Re: Raiders and Knights the biggest losers in proposed conference system

Post by Botman »

the bone wrote: April 29, 2021, 9:40 am There's a strong argument that it's fairer than the current system. You are competing on the ladder with teams that have the same draw as you; compare that to the current draw which is a lucky dip in terms of who plays who twice.
Yeah, that's the thing... we travel more than the sydney teams, but we do that now...
But we wouldnt be in competition really with them for a finals spot, we'd get the same schedule as everyone else in our conference and their travel would be roughly the same... and even if thats more than sydney teams, it removes that disadvantage because we're not really competing with them anymore

People worried about the travel and how hurtful it is for a team to travel the way we have to, and the advantage sydney teams have... those people should love this. It removes that disadvantage in season.
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Re: Raiders and Knights the biggest losers in proposed conference system

Post by The Nickman »

the bone wrote: April 29, 2021, 9:51 am
The Nickman wrote: April 29, 2021, 9:42 am
the bone wrote: April 29, 2021, 9:40 am There's a strong argument that it's fairer than the current system. You are competing on the ladder with teams that have the same draw as you; compare that to the current draw which is a lucky dip in terms of who plays who twice.
And the current system isn't even lucky dip. Have a look, we play generally the same teams twice every year... we always get a Cowboys, Warriors, Titans away game. Only difference is we'll start to get Brisbane away games again, for some reason we don't get them anymore (and I for one hate that!).

Agree with everything else you said though, this is objectively a much fairer system.
True that; the twice-played teams are generally the same, as the NRL looks to maximize Sydney rivalries. So a better way to put, is that a conference system formulates the draw in a logical and transparent way, and then the standings split the teams based on who has the same draw.
Yeah, we generally play every team in our "conference" twice already... except Brisbane. We used to play Brisbane away every year, not sure why that doesn't seem to happen anymore? I can only think the Broncos complained to the NRL for some reason and stopped it.
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Re: Raiders and Knights the biggest losers in proposed conference system

Post by the bone »

The Nickman wrote: April 29, 2021, 9:58 am
the bone wrote: April 29, 2021, 9:51 am
The Nickman wrote: April 29, 2021, 9:42 am
the bone wrote: April 29, 2021, 9:40 am There's a strong argument that it's fairer than the current system. You are competing on the ladder with teams that have the same draw as you; compare that to the current draw which is a lucky dip in terms of who plays who twice.
And the current system isn't even lucky dip. Have a look, we play generally the same teams twice every year... we always get a Cowboys, Warriors, Titans away game. Only difference is we'll start to get Brisbane away games again, for some reason we don't get them anymore (and I for one hate that!).

Agree with everything else you said though, this is objectively a much fairer system.
True that; the twice-played teams are generally the same, as the NRL looks to maximize Sydney rivalries. So a better way to put, is that a conference system formulates the draw in a logical and transparent way, and then the standings split the teams based on who has the same draw.
Yeah, we generally play every team in our "conference" twice already... except Brisbane. We used to play Brisbane away every year, not sure why that doesn't seem to happen anymore? I can only think the Broncos complained to the NRL for some reason and stopped it.
It was probably channel 9 not wanting the Raiders on TNF/FNF
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Re: Raiders and Knights the biggest losers in proposed conference system

Post by Peter »

The Nickman wrote: April 29, 2021, 6:23 am Do we really get punished THAT much more under this system than the existing one? I mean, currently we always get an away game against the Titans, Cowboys and Warriors, the only significant difference under this new system would be we start to get away games against Brisbane again.

Surely that’s a good thing? I really miss the Brisbane games when we used to get them regularly.

I really don’t see that our travel increases significantly under this new system when we already make the longest road trips (except one) every season anyway.
It doesn’t change much from our perspective. But comparing the Raiders situation of having to travel long distances every second week, to that of a Sydney club who has a half hour to an hour bus trip to each game, you’d have to say that it would really affect recruitment.
Players would be losing up to 10 hours a week with their families to play in the interstate conference.
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Re: Raiders and Knights the biggest losers in proposed conference system

Post by Wiki Special »

I don't mind this system promoting Derby clashes, etc. but I don't like the Conference System at all. The 8 teams that have the best records should play Finals football not a guaranteed 4 from each Conference. It will be rare but there is going to come a year when the 6th Team in one conference will have a better record than the 3rd Team in the other.
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Re: Raiders and Knights the biggest losers in proposed conference system

Post by The Nickman »

Peter wrote: April 29, 2021, 10:15 am
The Nickman wrote: April 29, 2021, 6:23 am Do we really get punished THAT much more under this system than the existing one? I mean, currently we always get an away game against the Titans, Cowboys and Warriors, the only significant difference under this new system would be we start to get away games against Brisbane again.

Surely that’s a good thing? I really miss the Brisbane games when we used to get them regularly.

I really don’t see that our travel increases significantly under this new system when we already make the longest road trips (except one) every season anyway.
It doesn’t change much from our perspective. But comparing the Raiders situation of having to travel long distances every second week, to that of a Sydney club who has a half hour to an hour bus trip to each game, you’d have to say that it would really affect recruitment.
Players would be losing up to 10 hours a week with their families to play in the interstate conference.
But they're already getting that! You even say that in your first sentence.
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Re: Raiders and Knights the biggest losers in proposed conference system

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papabear wrote:
LastRaider wrote: April 29, 2021, 6:15 am This is just ridiculous, it’s not like we are a 24 team competition. If the game wants to generate more TV revenue, put More NSW and QLD cup games on TV. Or even better put Jersey Fleg or SG Ball games on, a bit like college football in the US. As a club fan I would love to see our juniors coming through which is difficult to see when you live in Sydney.




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NSW / QLD cup games do not generate tv revenue.

Although I see it as bad for the raiders, overall I think it would be good for the game.
They could though if it was built up in the media properly. This proposal is just about increasing the amount of games. They want a 25 round Comp + final series. More games, more revenue.


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Re: Raiders and Knights the biggest losers in proposed conference system

Post by Canberra Milk »

Peter wrote: April 29, 2021, 10:15 am
The Nickman wrote: April 29, 2021, 6:23 am Do we really get punished THAT much more under this system than the existing one? I mean, currently we always get an away game against the Titans, Cowboys and Warriors, the only significant difference under this new system would be we start to get away games against Brisbane again.

Surely that’s a good thing? I really miss the Brisbane games when we used to get them regularly.

I really don’t see that our travel increases significantly under this new system when we already make the longest road trips (except one) every season anyway.
It doesn’t change much from our perspective. But comparing the Raiders situation of having to travel long distances every second week, to that of a Sydney club who has a half hour to an hour bus trip to each game, you’d have to say that it would really affect recruitment.
Players would be losing up to 10 hours a week with their families to play in the interstate conference.
True, very true. Sydney teams would get a massive boon in that respect
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Re: Raiders and Knights the biggest losers in proposed conference system

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greeneyed wrote: April 29, 2021, 8:07 am The current system of determining the draw is already unfair for out of Sydney clubs. This proposal institutionalises and worsens the travel and financial disadvantage for out of Sydney clubs. The NRL has a responsibility to run the competition on an even handed basis... to ensure there’s a level playing field.

It is ridiculous to have “three grand finals” with just 18 teams. Already The Daily Telegraph is “selling” the idea on Twitter this way:

“The NRL conference plan would reinvigorate rugby league in Sydney creating more derbies and a championship more valuable than the premiership itself.”

Remember, Phil Gould and Phil Rothfield came up with this. Deep down, what they want is a return to the Sydney competition and the primacy of the suburban Sydney competition. They’re already promising that their Sydney “championship” would be more valuable than the premiership.

What the proposal is saying is that there must always be a Sydney team in the ultimate Grand Final... and two teams from out of Sydney can never play in the Grand Final again.

It is essentially a proposal designed to financially protect Sydney teams with unsustainably low supporter bases from one town, out of Sydney teams. It is inimical to a proper national competition.

If there’s a conference system, which may be necessary in some form if there are 18 teams, it should not be determined on geography. It should run on seedings, from the previous season’s ladder placements. It should change every year, ensuring that one conference is not stronger than another. It should constantly mix up the travel burdens.
The Raiders can just suck it up. They are highly paid professionals - they shouldn't be complaining or making excuses for moderate inconveniences such as 1 or 2 longer road trips a year.

;)
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Raiders and Knights the biggest losers in proposed conference system

Post by The Nickman »

So, compared to the current system, we’d get 3 more rounds, and they’d be road trips to Brisbane (twice) and a second trip to New Zealand.

BUT of our existing 22 games, two or three (depending on the year) of our Sydney away games would revert to home games.

We also would get our own competition table where we’d qualify for the finals more regularly (based on recent history we would’ve qualified every season from 2015-2020 and would be well on track again in 2021).

Honestly doesn’t sound THAT awful.
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Re: Raiders and Knights the biggest losers in proposed conference system

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The issue is this... what’s happening now is not fair or reasonable. The argument that the proposal is not much different so let’s do it is deeply flawed. The NRL has a responsibility to do better than this, to run a competition that is conducted on a level playing field. What this proposal does is institutionalise advantage for Sydney teams and perpetuates disadvantage for those on the outer. Conferences that are geographically based are a terrible idea.

Anyone care to remember why Super League started? It was exactly this sort of Sydneycentric, suburban thinking.
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Re: Raiders and Knights the biggest losers in proposed conference system

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Separating into a Sydney comp and an everyone else comp is a stupid idea for a sport they pretend to be a national one.
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Re: Raiders and Knights the biggest losers in proposed conference system

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Northern Raider wrote:Separating into a Sydney comp and an everyone else comp is a stupid idea for a sport they pretend to be a national one.
It is downright ridiculous, but the NRL is in the Sydney bubble.


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Re: Raiders and Knights the biggest losers in proposed conference system

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Northern Raider wrote:Separating into a Sydney comp and an everyone else comp is a stupid idea for a sport they pretend to be a national one.
That’s the nub of the issue.

A national competition shouldn’t be primarily based out of a single city.

I think returning to a Sydney based competition (with a separate ‘others group’) would be a giant step backwards for the code. Another gift to the AFL in their ever expanding national game.

National Rugby League not SRL plus RestRL.
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Re: Raiders and Knights the biggest losers in proposed conference system

Post by Knotincelly22 »

Another V'landys brainfart. Imagine my surprise? The thing about the Super bowl is that it always is played in a different city and its even status means it will sell out. NSW has the rights to host the NRL GF for the next quarter century and a conference system ensures no two Sydney sides meet in the big dance. The idea needs tweaking if it's to get up at all. Seed the finalists irrespective on conference so the best two sides can play in the GF.
Pete Cash
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Re: Raiders and Knights the biggest losers in proposed conference system

Post by Pete Cash »

This would just backfire and benefit the storm to a silly degree. It would stick a bunch of new clubs and smaller market sides into the same division as the Storm and the Bronx (assuming they one day get their act together). This seems insane to me. Yeah all the old dinosaurs want the Sydney comp back but I believe they are making it very easy for the Storm just to rack up GF appearances.

Maybe this is the point and they want either Brisbane or Melbourne versus a Sydney club for every GF for TV ratings ?

The Non-Sydney division just feels lopsided as far as the market they are in. We already know the Storm are very good at raising third party money. Even chucking a second Brisbane team in may not dilute the Broncos in Brisbane.
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hobbsy
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Re: Raiders and Knights the biggest losers in proposed conference system

Post by hobbsy »

Lets just go all the way in the US style. Conferences, a draft, and a full blown All Star weekend with events like a field goal contest and wingers jumping over cars to get the best corner put down.
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