Jack Wighton - George Williams combination

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BadnMean
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Re: Jack Wighton - George Williams combination

Post by BadnMean »

We knew it when we signed George- all his highlights were left side.

At the top level, if your pass and step are both instinctively favoured on one side- it might be pretty hard to make up. There's a reason guys who could be deadly either side like Daley, Fittler, Johns, JT etc are revered.

Back when we first signed George we were hoping we'd see CNK be able to pop up on the right as a playmaker or link man as he developed. That obviously didn't pan out. The alternative would be to get Hodgo over there at first receiver or Whitehead.
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Re: Jack Wighton - George Williams combination

Post by Wiki Special »

BadnMean wrote: April 26, 2021, 8:58 am We knew it when we signed George- all his highlights were left side.

At the top level, if your pass and step are both instinctively favoured on one side- it might be pretty hard to make up. There's a reason guys who could be deadly either side like Daley, Fittler, Johns, JT etc are revered.

Back when we first signed George we were hoping we'd see CNK be able to pop up on the right as a playmaker or link man as he developed. That obviously didn't pan out. The alternative would be to get Hodgo over there at first receiver or Whitehead.
That last sentence is part of the reason why I think Whitehead should be on the right and Young on the left.
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Re: Jack Wighton - George Williams combination

Post by Green Blogger »

Our halves are copping a lot of criticism. Notwithstanding the slow ball that they were getting from Hodgson, the thing that has stood out to me visually the last few weeks is that our forwards are getting well beaten. Put simply, opposition forwards are running at pace with intent to hurt. Ours are dancing before contact and trying to be fancy. Our forward pack has been well heated for several weeks and our running halves are struggling to play off the back of that. Regain forward dominance and George and Jack will look much better.
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Re: Jack Wighton - George Williams combination

Post by Pete Cash »

Our issue with yardage is a whole other thing. We are getting very little ball full stop . It is rare that we win the possession. I think thats only happened maybe once or twice this year. We are getting done pretty handily in kicking metres. So our slower outside backs are being turned around and demolished with the ball starting our sets very negatively (compared with the opposition backs getting to the ball on the full and starting the opposition off on the front foot) and yes the forwards could wind up a bit.
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Re: Jack Wighton - George Williams combination

Post by BadnMean »

It's a bit of a chicken/egg conundrum. Our errors are hard to pinpoint an easy fix because our two worst exponents have been Rapa and Jack- who are generally among our better players by other metrics. I've defended both from the odd error in the past simply because of how often they handle the ball and the high octane way they play- in the past they haven't been notably worse than their peers in the same positions.

This year they've both just been a little bit worse with errors than other years. Kind of up there with the worst of their peers not the main bunch. So the fact they are both having that year is a double whammy.

The rest though are just across the entire team. James, Sutton, Havilii- relatively low error output. Everyone else is just a bt higher than their usual year. Easy finger point is to conditioning- skill errors under fatigue are a known and studied effect.

But are we managing games in a way that allows us to manage fatigue smartly or playing dumb? Bench use would be the first and obvious factor. Game management through kicks- even the sideline without a scrum is still a better breather than open play. Passes thrown and yards made linked to time taken to complete our sets and thus the rest from making those 10m defensive efforts? There's probably more to be considered but I'd bet the smarter, more detail oriented teams are looking at areas like this- not to direct all their play but to consider at deploy as needed throughout a match.

Offloads in particular are one facet we DO have the personell to deploy more often, if allowed and would extend out time with the ball, make us more dangerous in attack + force more defensive efforts from the opposition. We've generally been down among the very least offloading teams. I just wonder if we climbed that up a bit, would we see a seeming counter-intuitive reduction in errors/better completions simply due to moving the fatigue needle away from us and toward the opposition a bit.
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Re: Jack Wighton - George Williams combination

Post by Pete Cash »

Bench use has been bad. Stick has often kept an interchange up his sleeve for reasons known only to him. I think we can get more minutes out a few of the players and less out of others. It almost feels like he gets everyone wrong lol
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Re: Jack Wighton - George Williams combination

Post by BadnMean »

Pete Cash wrote: April 26, 2021, 4:04 pm Bench use has been bad. Stick has often kept an interchange up his sleeve for reasons known only to him. I think we can get more minutes out a few of the players and less out of others. It almost feels like he gets everyone wrong lol
When you're watching Rapana blunder around on the left wing for unknown reasons and Hudson Young only play 15 mins while Sutton plays an unbroken 47 min stint to ope the game it certainly feels that way.
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Re: Jack Wighton - George Williams combination

Post by afgtnk »

Knotincelly22 wrote: April 26, 2021, 6:52 am
afgtnk wrote: April 25, 2021, 5:20 pm When you have a real think about it and view it in isolation, in the context of the game and its history, Jack's consistent kicks out are absolutely bizzare :lol: I mean we're now just laughing it off, but any other player committing the crime simply as a one-off would get crucified.

There surely would not be a player in the history of the game coming anywhere close to what he's racked up in the time he's been a half, seemingly unable to put a halt to it. I don't see it as otherwise being possible.
It doesn't rattle him and that's the point. How many more in that side would dwell on it and go into their shell? He's a winner, so is Bateman. You should appreciate how rare those players are. We let one go back to the UK. Unforgiveable imo.
I'm not really concerned about what it does to him - it's the team that I don't want to keep being disadvantaged.
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Re: Jack Wighton - George Williams combination

Post by Knotincelly22 »

BadnMean wrote: April 26, 2021, 8:58 am We knew it when we signed George- all his highlights were left side.

At the top level, if your pass and step are both instinctively favoured on one side- it might be pretty hard to make up. There's a reason guys who could be deadly either side like Daley, Fittler, Johns, JT etc are revered.
I actually think Jack passes left to right far more naturally than the right to left(the latter looks as awkward as a Ben Simmons jump shot at times). In the dying stages of SOO game 3 last year we saw, he can play either side and be absolutely lethal in doing so. Why Ricky hasn't flipped Wighton/Williams may have something to do with defence. Jack has bailed Toots out more times than I care to remember and Williams gets caught out as all halfbacks do so I'm not even mad at at but putting on the left would leave us with more spot players than we need. At the very least, it should've been tried in the Penrith game becos Kikau ain't trampling Jack.
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Re: Jack Wighton - George Williams combination

Post by Knotincelly22 »

afgtnk wrote: April 26, 2021, 5:12 pm
Knotincelly22 wrote: April 26, 2021, 6:52 am
afgtnk wrote: April 25, 2021, 5:20 pm When you have a real think about it and view it in isolation, in the context of the game and its history, Jack's consistent kicks out are absolutely bizzare :lol: I mean we're now just laughing it off, but any other player committing the crime simply as a one-off would get crucified.

There surely would not be a player in the history of the game coming anywhere close to what he's racked up in the time he's been a half, seemingly unable to put a halt to it. I don't see it as otherwise being possible.
It doesn't rattle him and that's the point. How many more in that side would dwell on it and go into their shell? He's a winner, so is Bateman. You should appreciate how rare those players are. We let one go back to the UK. Unforgiveable imo.
I'm not really concerned about what it does to him - it's the team that I don't want to keep being disadvantaged.
If you want perfection, no half will give you that. The good more than outweighs the bad: Dally M medallist, etc, etc.
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Re: Jack Wighton - George Williams combination

Post by BadnMean »

Knotincelly22 wrote: April 27, 2021, 8:20 am
BadnMean wrote: April 26, 2021, 8:58 am We knew it when we signed George- all his highlights were left side.

At the top level, if your pass and step are both instinctively favoured on one side- it might be pretty hard to make up. There's a reason guys who could be deadly either side like Daley, Fittler, Johns, JT etc are revered.
I actually think Jack passes left to right far more naturally than the right to left(the latter looks as awkward as a Ben Simmons jump shot at times). In the dying stages of SOO game 3 last year we saw, he can play either side and be absolutely lethal in doing so. Why Ricky hasn't flipped Wighton/Williams may have something to do with defence. Jack has bailed Toots out more times than I care to remember and Williams gets caught out as all halfbacks do so I'm not even mad at at but putting on the left would leave us with more spot players than we need. At the very least, it should've been tried in the Penrith game becos Kikau ain't trampling Jack.
Yeah ok, I hadn't picked up on that at all.
Our halves are both very good defensively, by comparison to other halves. They'd be among the top bracket as a pair and Jack is the toughest tackling half I've seen since Daley.

Ricky kind of seems to have had all his ballplaying eggs on that left side- most skillful backrower and centre + Wighton. He'd be reluctant to dismantle it as it's been our "banker" side in attack.
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Re: Jack Wighton - George Williams combination

Post by julian87 »

Stuart hasn’t flipped them because Wighton would lose everything on the right. Jesus I thought that was obvious.

He steps off his left and his kicking would be even more hindered on the right. Go back and watch his rep games on the right he struggled in attack because he just wasn’t suited. I’d like to see Wighton rove but I don’t think it can happen without a halfback.
well, I guess you could say that I'm buy curious.
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Re: Jack Wighton - George Williams combination

Post by Knotincelly22 »

julian87 wrote: April 27, 2021, 9:43 am Stuart hasn’t flipped them because Wighton would lose everything on the right. Jesus I thought that was obvious.

He steps off his left and his kicking would be even more hindered on the right. Go back and watch his rep games on the right he struggled in attack because he just wasn’t suited. I’d like to see Wighton rove but I don’t think it can happen without a halfback.
He can't do it all though and that is my point-we all know his running game is elite but his evolution as a five eighth must include setting up others(TA and LBA). I'm talking about his ability to put others into space-and it is definitely there but the short ball to Croker on the left is just wasted because he ain't busting any tackle. Joey Leilua only needed a hint of an inside shoulder and it was over for whoever was defending him-Cotric would've been the same.
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Re: Jack Wighton - George Williams combination

Post by Knotincelly22 »

I would also add that Jack played right centre v Tonga('19) and scored a try utilising that left foot step on the right side so it's a not really an issue.
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Re: Jack Wighton - George Williams combination

Post by Canberra Milk »

I've long believed that Jack can't pass left to right. Do you not remember his fullback days, when he used to send his passes into the grandstand? That was usually passing left to right
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Re: Jack Wighton - George Williams combination

Post by Knotincelly22 »

The cutout pass has been something he's needed to add regardless of which side he's passing and he nailed one last week for a try assist which was a good sign. He's got a clanger in his game, whether it's a pass or a kick out on the full but he's still one of the game's elite. People are forgetting that. Appreciate it while he's still here. He and Papalii are levels above the rest of the side.
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Re: Jack Wighton - George Williams combination

Post by Canberra Milk »

Good talk by Ikin. I mean nothing we haven't said here (in particular Botman re scoring from ad lib play only), but shows we're not all mad
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Re: Jack Wighton - George Williams combination

Post by The Nickman »

Knotincelly22 wrote:The cutout pass has been something he's needed to add regardless of which side he's passing and he nailed one last week for a try assist which was a good sign. He's got a clanger in his game, whether it's a pass or a kick out on the full but he's still one of the game's elite. People are forgetting that. Appreciate it while he's still here. He and Papalii are levels above the rest of the side.
Is he going somewhere, is he?
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Re: Jack Wighton - George Williams combination

Post by julian87 »

Knotincelly22 wrote: April 27, 2021, 11:55 am I would also add that Jack played right centre v Tonga('19) and scored a try utilising that left foot step on the right side so it's a not really an issue.
It absolutely is an issue. You can’t step off the wrong foot towards the sideline and expect to be gunning it at NRL level.
well, I guess you could say that I'm buy curious.
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Re: Jack Wighton - George Williams combination

Post by Botman »

Yeah i dont think Jack's game works on the right... and scoring a try against Tonga isnt really a needle mover for me in the opposite direction.
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Re: Jack Wighton - George Williams combination

Post by radicalraider »

Wighton needs to forget the 40/20 kick.. at least half of those Attempts are the reason he kicks out on the full.
Kick for field position, that is all.
George needs to find touch and get repeat sets, he rarely does.
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Re: Jack Wighton - George Williams combination

Post by Knotincelly22 »

julian87 wrote: April 27, 2021, 8:33 pm
Knotincelly22 wrote: April 27, 2021, 11:55 am I would also add that Jack played right centre v Tonga('19) and scored a try utilising that left foot step on the right side so it's a not really an issue.
It absolutely is an issue. You can’t step off the wrong foot towards the sideline and expect to be gunning it at NRL level.
He literally scored a try on the right stepping off the left-and did it playing wider than he would at five eighth. It's not about his running anyway-it's developing his passing and perhaps trying Williams on his preferred side. Jack is more versatile-I'm not worried about him at all.
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Jack Wighton - George Williams combination

Post by LastRaider »

The club literally needs to make a decision who to keep and who to move on. We are into our second year of this pairing not working. Even blind Freddy can see the writing on the wall and as a club we must be able to learn fast from our mistakes and fix it.

The game has left us behind period! Stubbornness never wins out. Time to pull the band aid off and make the decisions the club needs to make and get back in the game.

Williams to go is one of them with Croker, Sia and Scott.




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Re: Jack Wighton - George Williams combination

Post by Knotincelly22 »

Sia is off contract so I'd say this year is his last and Williams is signed til next year so we either extend or let him go I'd honestly think it's too early to say it isn't working. Hodgson coming back has altered the chemistry. Forward depth and inexperience in the backline derailed us last year so if we're looking at offloading any UK players, it would be the 32yo injury prone hooker I'd cut loose. Sign the cheese. Croker and Scott would require an early release. The former is a no brainer. Scott deserves little more time-his legs weren't right last season-he looked like the white Edrick Lee- and neither was his head.
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Re: Jack Wighton - George Williams combination

Post by LastRaider »

Knotincelly22 wrote:Sia is off contract so I'd say this year is his last and Williams is signed til next year so we either extend or let him go I'd honestly think it's too early to say it isn't working. Hodgson coming back has altered the chemistry. Forward depth and inexperience in the backline derailed us last year so if we're looking at offloading any UK players, it would be the 32yo injury prone hooker I'd cut loose. Sign the cheese. Croker and Scott would require an early release. The former is a no brainer. Scott deserves little more time-his legs weren't right last season-he looked like the white Edrick Lee- and neither was his head.
The problem is Wighton and Williams are left side dominant running halves. You can blame Hodgson for over playing his hand but still doesn’t change the fact we are unbalanced on the most pivotal positions


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Re: Jack Wighton - George Williams combination

Post by Knotincelly22 »

LastRaider wrote: April 28, 2021, 12:21 pm
Knotincelly22 wrote:Sia is off contract so I'd say this year is his last and Williams is signed til next year so we either extend or let him go I'd honestly think it's too early to say it isn't working. Hodgson coming back has altered the chemistry. Forward depth and inexperience in the backline derailed us last year so if we're looking at offloading any UK players, it would be the 32yo injury prone hooker I'd cut loose. Sign the cheese. Croker and Scott would require an early release. The former is a no brainer. Scott deserves little more time-his legs weren't right last season-he looked like the white Edrick Lee- and neither was his head.
The problem is Wighton and Williams are left side dominant running halves. You can blame Hodgson for over playing his hand but still doesn’t change the fact we are unbalanced on the most pivotal positions


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We were beaten by the eventual premiers in a preliminary final last season. It wasn't the halves' fault-it was both inexperience and age in the backline and lack of forward depth(due to injuries). The pack that was left used up all its emotional and physical energy v the Roosters. We didn't miss Hodgson at all-not even a little. Havili and Starling freed up Wighton to such an extent he won the Dally M. Now all of a sudden he's taken a step back the second Hodgson returns.
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Re: Jack Wighton - George Williams combination

Post by Canberra Milk »

We were beaten? We were absolutely towelled up. I honestly wish I had the optimism of some people... not to say I disagree that the Storm's week off helped them, like it helped us the year before and Storm again in 2016
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Re: Jack Wighton - George Williams combination

Post by Knotincelly22 »

We lost the middle and the Storm exploited Rapana in the centres and the greenness(pun unintended) of Valemei. Add in Croker's inexplicable miss(later revealed as the shoulder injury) on Vunivalu which made it 18-0 after 20 mins and it was game over. We needed to finish 4th and hope to ambush the Panthers. The seesawing Tigers-Eels match in the final round scuttled those plans. The bottom line is the team made it that far without Hodgson and Jack basically backpacked the side in the '19 GF when Hodgson was MIA.
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Re: Jack Wighton - George Williams combination

Post by WiganRaider »

moto748 wrote: April 26, 2021, 4:19 am interested in this, cos naturally how GW fits into the side is my main point of interest. First off I'll say this: as it happens, I watched 80 mins of Sezer the other day playing for Huddersfield. George is comfortably a more talented footballer. That's why he is playing in the NRL, and Sezer is at, well, Huddersfield. But saying that, all is clearly not well. As Tongue says, George is very much a left-sided running half, effectively playing the Wighton tole. That's what he did at Wigan. And he generally had an 'organising' half-back on the right doing the majority of the long kicking. It just looks to me like the team is poorly coached. In recent weeks, the impact of the halves has been reduced, and that's not the direction you want to travel in. Too much one-out football, and not just that, but the worst kind of one-out football, where the rest of the team stands back 10-15 metres away and watched as a sole forward takes the ball forward.
At Wigan he was known for his short kicking game, he was nailed on every week for a couple of goal line drop out wins. Id like to see him bring that back, your right in regards to having that 'organising' half back alongside him. The majority of the time its always been Tommy Leuleui, Tommy isnt flash at all but organises the team very well. Plus he has had for me one of the best playing 13's alongside him in Sean O'Loughin so has always had that other option in a ball player to help out.

Id agree with a few other comments too that i would also like to see him play a little bit more straight rather than side to side.

One of my biggest worries with George going to the NRL was his passing game because i was never really a fan but i think he has improved that aspect. If the Raiders could find a ball playing 13 i really think it would help massively (Although i know they are like gold dust to find), also would help because as we all know Jack is more of a runner than a ball player.
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Re: Jack Wighton - George Williams combination

Post by Roger Kenworthy »

We looked the best tonight when Wighton had his hands on the ball regularly. Williams playing takes that away.

I really do think there is something to the fact that these two are just too similar. I see our perfect 7 as someone who distributes the ball quickly and has a really precise and accurate kicking game. Very hard to find unfortunately haha.
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Re: Jack Wighton - George Williams combination

Post by Canberra Milk »

Josh Hodgson could easily play ball-playing 13
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Re: Jack Wighton - George Williams combination

Post by Bovrick »

Roger Kenworthy wrote: April 29, 2021, 9:58 pm We looked the best tonight when Wighton had his hands on the ball regularly. Williams playing takes that away.

I really do think there is something to the fact that these two are just too similar. I see our perfect 7 as someone who distributes the ball quickly and has a really precise and accurate kicking game. Very hard to find unfortunately haha.
We looked at our best during the brief moments when the forwards made some yards and brought out the offloads. Starling is so well suited to the current pace of the game, we just don't use that enough. That said, it was nice to see Jack finally stray to the right, albeit only once we'd already lost the game. There's no reason why both halves shouldn't be roaming together, one doesn't take away from the other, they should be each other's decoy.
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Re: Jack Wighton - George Williams combination

Post by Knotincelly22 »

Bovrick wrote: April 29, 2021, 10:38 pm
Roger Kenworthy wrote: April 29, 2021, 9:58 pm We looked the best tonight when Wighton had his hands on the ball regularly. Williams playing takes that away.

I really do think there is something to the fact that these two are just too similar. I see our perfect 7 as someone who distributes the ball quickly and has a really precise and accurate kicking game. Very hard to find unfortunately haha.
We looked at our best during the brief moments when the forwards made some yards and brought out the offloads. Starling is so well suited to the current pace of the game, we just don't use that enough. That said, it was nice to see Jack finally stray to the right, albeit only once we'd already lost the game. There's no reason why both halves shouldn't be roaming together, one doesn't take away from the other, they should be each other's decoy.
You make some important points here and the Raiders would be well advised to look at extending Starling as Havili is off contract and Hodgson is getting long in the tooth. I honestly thought Tom was too small for NRL but the new rule changes means his lack of size an asset. He's quick out of dummy half and he plays what's in front of him. It's no coincidence Wighton had such a huge season last year when Starling played more. Jack is our best player. Left, right, it don't matter. Short kicks, long kicks-he's got it all. If the NSW selectors pick Luai in lieu of a genuine Origin #6 well they'll get what they deserve.
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Re: Jack Wighton - George Williams combination

Post by Knotincelly22 »

The Nickman wrote: April 27, 2021, 7:01 pm
Knotincelly22 wrote:The cutout pass has been something he's needed to add regardless of which side he's passing and he nailed one last week for a try assist which was a good sign. He's got a clanger in his game, whether it's a pass or a kick out on the full but he's still one of the game's elite. People are forgetting that. Appreciate it while he's still here. He and Papalii are levels above the rest of the side.
Is he going somewhere, is he?
It's unlikely, however, he has does have player options in '23 and '24 so it is possible he could walk after next year and teams will definitely make enquiries. My point was more about not wasting his prime years by making dumb retention decisions. Good five eighths don't come along as often as good halfbacks.
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Re: Jack Wighton - George Williams combination

Post by MrMilk »

Canberra Milk wrote: April 29, 2021, 10:24 pm Josh Hodgson could easily play ball-playing 13
Not convinced about his defence in the middle anymore...
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