Coaching issues

All the news on the Canberra Raiders NRL team, all in one place

Moderator: GH Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
yeh raiders
Laurie Daley
Posts: 17112
Joined: June 21, 2008, 3:04 pm
Favourite Player: Jack Wighton
Location: Sydney

Re: Coaching issues

Post by yeh raiders »

gergreg wrote: April 29, 2021, 11:36 pm Why do we wait till 16 points behind before starting to offload and take a few risks? This bs grinding / completions tactic is meaningless in the current game. Bench rotation sucks. Half-time speech clearly sucks. Fitness sucks. Game plan sucks. Attitude sucks.
100% this, except for the “meaningless” part. You’ve still got to lay a platform but you need to be able to adapt to what’s in front of you and what’s in front of you can change instantly due to a set restart and an opportunity that opens up, that otherwise wouldn’t.
LastRaider
John Ferguson
Posts: 2383
Joined: March 31, 2018, 9:30 pm

Re: Coaching issues

Post by LastRaider »

The Nickman wrote:I really enjoyed the last 20 though where we were going wide down BOTH edges, we looked really dangerous.

Be nice if the team would stick solid with those tactics against the knights. Not sure if Williams is capable of feeding the right like Elliott did last night.
I agree Nickman, Williams is not capable of feeding the right. Instead Williams and Wighton run each other out of room on the left all the time. It was obvious tonight how much better Jack is when he has early ball and space on the left. It’s really telling


Sent from my iPhone using The Greenhouse
The Nickman
Mal Meninga
Posts: 51016
Joined: June 25, 2012, 9:53 am
Favourite Player: Hodgo
Location: Rockhampton, Central Queensland

Re: Coaching issues

Post by The Nickman »

LastRaider wrote: April 30, 2021, 7:14 am
The Nickman wrote:I really enjoyed the last 20 though where we were going wide down BOTH edges, we looked really dangerous.

Be nice if the team would stick solid with those tactics against the knights. Not sure if Williams is capable of feeding the right like Elliott did last night.
I agree Nickman, Williams is not capable of feeding the right. Instead Williams and Wighton run each other out of room on the left all the time. It was obvious tonight how much better Jack is when he has early ball and space on the left. It’s really telling
So how do we fix it? Surely it's a simple case of just telling Williams to go right and feed the right edge more ball??

I mean, I play touch footy, and I'm by no stretch of the imagination very good at all, but I am at least able to attack either side of the field. Surely blokes at NRL level can be just as capable? Most players have a dominant side, but they should still be able to run and pass the opposite way.
User avatar
Seiffert82
Mal Meninga
Posts: 27849
Joined: March 17, 2007, 12:24 pm
Favourite Player: Bay56

Re: Coaching issues

Post by Seiffert82 »

gangrenous wrote: April 30, 2021, 6:19 am
Seiffert82 wrote:
gangrenous wrote: April 28, 2021, 9:49 pm Because if you don’t use width then they load up the middle and smash you knowing you’re not using 2/3 of the field.
Using width is one thing. Doing it every single play is something else entirely.
No one is saying to do it every single play. But there was a lengthy period in that second half where we did NONE. Doing hit ups every single play is equally daft.
Yep. I think you'll find I'm not actually arguing they hit the ball up every single play.

What I'm saying is that vs Parra we were still hitting the ball up most plays, but we were regularly doing it a few defenders wide of the ruck.
The Nickman
Mal Meninga
Posts: 51016
Joined: June 25, 2012, 9:53 am
Favourite Player: Hodgo
Location: Rockhampton, Central Queensland

Re: Coaching issues

Post by The Nickman »

Seiffert82 wrote: April 30, 2021, 7:35 am
gangrenous wrote: April 30, 2021, 6:19 am
Seiffert82 wrote:
gangrenous wrote: April 28, 2021, 9:49 pm Because if you don’t use width then they load up the middle and smash you knowing you’re not using 2/3 of the field.
Using width is one thing. Doing it every single play is something else entirely.
No one is saying to do it every single play. But there was a lengthy period in that second half where we did NONE. Doing hit ups every single play is equally daft.
Yep. I think you'll find I'm not actually arguing they hit the ball up every single play.

What I'm saying is that vs Parra we were still hitting the ball up most plays, but we were regularly doing it a few defenders wide of the ruck.
And the movement to either edge was quite pleasing too. I'd love to see us keep that moving forward, rather than reverting to completely ignoring the right.
User avatar
Canberra Milk
Laurie Daley
Posts: 15204
Joined: January 6, 2005, 8:44 pm
Favourite Player: Leipana

Re: Coaching issues

Post by Canberra Milk »

I think buying too many middles may have been an even bigger problem than we realised. It's one thing to have depth, it's another to have guys questioning what their role in the team is. At some point you have to buy/pick someone and back him. I've heard numerous sportspeople say it gets to them when they don't know whether they're going to be picked each game. It's just human nature

I also wonder whether we're playing up the middle so much, because we want to play to our perceived strength and don't want to waste all our "great middle forwards". So we feel obliged to feed them ball, even if the best strategy at that moment in the game is to use the ball a bit
User avatar
Seiffert82
Mal Meninga
Posts: 27849
Joined: March 17, 2007, 12:24 pm
Favourite Player: Bay56

Re: Coaching issues

Post by Seiffert82 »

I don't think we go through the middle enough. We do it for the first 15 minutes of the game and then walk away from it.

That's currently our strength. We should be utilising them better by working in numbers and playing off the back of offloads if the opposition is allowed to slow the ruck down.

This team is not geared for a deep shape in attack and sweeping backline moves. That might look pretty, but we don't have the skill or speed in the 3/4 line or at fullback to do it. This squad is built to go through the opposition, not around them. Unfortunately we don't always play that way.

We should be playing flat, aiming for offloads and putting the ball through the second rowers hands, using the ball playing skills of Whitehead and CHN.
Last edited by Seiffert82 on April 30, 2021, 11:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Nickman
Mal Meninga
Posts: 51016
Joined: June 25, 2012, 9:53 am
Favourite Player: Hodgo
Location: Rockhampton, Central Queensland

Re: Coaching issues

Post by The Nickman »

Seiffert82 wrote:I don't think we go through the middle enough. We do it for the first 15 minutes of the game and then walk away from it.

That's currently our strength. We should be utilising them better by working in numbers and playing off the back of offloads if the opposition is allowed to slow the ruck down.
And rotating our big middles so they’re always fresh, not playing some of them for 60 minutes and others for 9!
User avatar
Canberra Milk
Laurie Daley
Posts: 15204
Joined: January 6, 2005, 8:44 pm
Favourite Player: Leipana

Re: Coaching issues

Post by Canberra Milk »

We did it tho for the first 20 minutes of the second half? What else happened in that 20 minutes?
User avatar
Seiffert82
Mal Meninga
Posts: 27849
Joined: March 17, 2007, 12:24 pm
Favourite Player: Bay56

Re: Coaching issues

Post by Seiffert82 »

Errors and **** defence. That's what happened.
User avatar
Canberra Milk
Laurie Daley
Posts: 15204
Joined: January 6, 2005, 8:44 pm
Favourite Player: Leipana

Re: Coaching issues

Post by Canberra Milk »

Well I don't disagree re defence but think we looked average with the ball too, showed no signs of wresting momentum back and pressure ensued. Looked like we were waiting for them to make a mistake
User avatar
Seiffert82
Mal Meninga
Posts: 27849
Joined: March 17, 2007, 12:24 pm
Favourite Player: Bay56

Re: Coaching issues

Post by Seiffert82 »

Yeah it did. Wasn't helped by Stuart's ridiculous use of the bench. We really need 2 of Papa, James, Sutton and Taps out there at all times if possible to keep that middle moving forward.

To be fair, with Williams and Hodgo out, Reynolds literally kicked us out of the game last night. We were on the back foot through the entire second half.
The Nickman
Mal Meninga
Posts: 51016
Joined: June 25, 2012, 9:53 am
Favourite Player: Hodgo
Location: Rockhampton, Central Queensland

Re: Coaching issues

Post by The Nickman »

I think our dead period after halftime is largely due to the rubbish bench rotation of the coach, as is a lot of our issues.
rayden83
Alan Tongue
Posts: 673
Joined: March 18, 2018, 7:33 pm
Favourite Player: Rapana

Re: Coaching issues

Post by rayden83 »

Seiffert82 wrote: April 30, 2021, 10:55 am I don't think we go through the middle enough. We do it for the first 15 minutes of the game and then walk away
Are you serious? We spent nearly the whole second half trying to bash Souths through the guts. It didn't work. As soon as we spread the ball to our wide players we looked much better, possibly because our attack and their defenders were so bunched that it left space out wide to exploit.

Going through the middle only works when you have threatening edge forwards and/or outside backs, which forces teams to spread their defensive lines. It worked brilliantly in 2019 when we had attacking threats all over the park which allowed the likes of Papalii , Lui to get a roll on.
User avatar
Northern Raider
Mal Meninga
Posts: 32524
Joined: June 19, 2007, 8:17 am
Favourite Player: Dean Lance
Location: Greener pastures

Re: Coaching issues

Post by Northern Raider »

rayden83 wrote: April 30, 2021, 5:31 pm
Seiffert82 wrote: April 30, 2021, 10:55 am I don't think we go through the middle enough. We do it for the first 15 minutes of the game and then walk away
Are you serious? We spent nearly the whole second half trying to bash Souths through the guts. It didn't work. As soon as we spread the ball to our wide players we looked much better, possibly because our attack and their defenders were so bunched that it left space out wide to exploit.

Going through the middle only works when you have threatening edge forwards and/or outside backs, which forces teams to spread their defensive lines. It worked brilliantly in 2019 when we had attacking threats all over the park which allowed the likes of Papalii , Lui to get a roll on.
That's how I saw it. Souths struggled when we spread the ball. 2nd half we stopped and their compressed defense was more effective.
* The author assumes no responsibility for the topicality, correctness, completeness or quality of information provided.
User avatar
Seiffert82
Mal Meninga
Posts: 27849
Joined: March 17, 2007, 12:24 pm
Favourite Player: Bay56

Re: Coaching issues

Post by Seiffert82 »

rayden83 wrote: April 30, 2021, 5:31 pm
Seiffert82 wrote: April 30, 2021, 10:55 am I don't think we go through the middle enough. We do it for the first 15 minutes of the game and then walk away
Are you serious? We spent nearly the whole second half trying to bash Souths through the guts. It didn't work. As soon as we spread the ball to our wide players we looked much better, possibly because our attack and their defenders were so bunched that it left space out wide to exploit.

Going through the middle only works when you have threatening edge forwards and/or outside backs, which forces teams to spread their defensive lines. It worked brilliantly in 2019 when we had attacking threats all over the park which allowed the likes of Papalii , Lui to get a roll on.
Why do you think it worked in the first half after we started the game through the middle?

Oh that's right, because we started the first half going through the middle, compressing their defence.

In the second half we started it poorly. Never got on the front foot.
rayden83
Alan Tongue
Posts: 673
Joined: March 18, 2018, 7:33 pm
Favourite Player: Rapana

Re: Coaching issues

Post by rayden83 »

Seiffert82 wrote: April 30, 2021, 6:16 pm
rayden83 wrote: April 30, 2021, 5:31 pm
Seiffert82 wrote: April 30, 2021, 10:55 am I don't think we go through the middle enough. We do it for the first 15 minutes of the game and then walk away
Are you serious? We spent nearly the whole second half trying to bash Souths through the guts. It didn't work. As soon as we spread the ball to our wide players we looked much better, possibly because our attack and their defenders were so bunched that it left space out wide to exploit.

Going through the middle only works when you have threatening edge forwards and/or outside backs, which forces teams to spread their defensive lines. It worked brilliantly in 2019 when we had attacking threats all over the park which allowed the likes of Papalii , Lui to get a roll on.
Why do you think it worked in the first half after we started the game through the middle?

Oh that's right, because we started the first half going through the middle, compressing their defence.

In the second half we started it poorly. Never got on the front foot.
The first half was all energy and intensity, which is difficult to maintain for 80 minutes. The second half we burnt out and Souths easily nullified our meathead game plan.
User avatar
Rickmando
John Ferguson
Posts: 2663
Joined: May 22, 2017, 3:41 pm
Favourite Player: Ricky Stuart

Re: Coaching issues

Post by Rickmando »

rayden83 wrote: April 30, 2021, 6:38 pm
Seiffert82 wrote: April 30, 2021, 6:16 pm
rayden83 wrote: April 30, 2021, 5:31 pm
Seiffert82 wrote: April 30, 2021, 10:55 am I don't think we go through the middle enough. We do it for the first 15 minutes of the game and then walk away
Are you serious? We spent nearly the whole second half trying to bash Souths through the guts. It didn't work. As soon as we spread the ball to our wide players we looked much better, possibly because our attack and their defenders were so bunched that it left space out wide to exploit.

Going through the middle only works when you have threatening edge forwards and/or outside backs, which forces teams to spread their defensive lines. It worked brilliantly in 2019 when we had attacking threats all over the park which allowed the likes of Papalii , Lui to get a roll on.
Why do you think it worked in the first half after we started the game through the middle?

Oh that's right, because we started the first half going through the middle, compressing their defence.

In the second half we started it poorly. Never got on the front foot.
The first half was all energy and intensity, which is difficult to maintain for 80 minutes. The second half we burnt out and Souths easily nullified our meathead game plan.
Rick needs to work out a way we can bleed green for the full 80mins, a controlled release is what we are looking for. We are bleeding too much green in the first half, not enough left for the second half and we get woozy. That’s all it is
The Nickman
Mal Meninga
Posts: 51016
Joined: June 25, 2012, 9:53 am
Favourite Player: Hodgo
Location: Rockhampton, Central Queensland

Re: Coaching issues

Post by The Nickman »

I’m just not sure whether it’s more a question of bleeding green as it is sticking solid. You need to get the ratio between the two just right IMO.
User avatar
Rickmando
John Ferguson
Posts: 2663
Joined: May 22, 2017, 3:41 pm
Favourite Player: Ricky Stuart

Re: Coaching issues

Post by Rickmando »

Maybe it’s the mixed messages Nicko?

Maybe the boys are coming out of the sheds at half time - half of them are trying to bleed green while the other half are sticking solid?
User avatar
Brew
Steve Walters
Posts: 7183
Joined: June 4, 2005, 11:35 am
Favourite Player: Blake Austin
Location: Bondi Junction

Re: Coaching issues

Post by Brew »

dubby wrote:In the past we've had big bodies like Cotric and Leilua starting our sets well. Rapana was better then too.

Now it's a struggle. Rapa is not the player he was, and Simmo is just not creating the momentum we need.

Croker and Scott are lacking punch as well.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk
I said this was my major concern for this year and it’s showing. We have one of the weakest back lines in the comp.
Even Semi is a bigger tall body then our current winger.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
In Ricky We Trust
Billy Walker
Laurie Daley
Posts: 12409
Joined: April 29, 2017, 7:22 pm
Favourite Player: Ashley Gilbert

Re: Coaching issues

Post by Billy Walker »

Brew wrote: April 30, 2021, 8:26 pm
dubby wrote:In the past we've had big bodies like Cotric and Leilua starting our sets well. Rapana was better then too.

Now it's a struggle. Rapa is not the player he was, and Simmo is just not creating the momentum we need.

Croker and Scott are lacking punch as well.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk
I said this was my major concern for this year and it’s showing. We have one of the weakest back lines in the comp.
Even Semi is a bigger tall body then our current winger.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I thought Scott had some good carries early in the sets last night. He’s never bending the line like BJ does but he didn’t get buckled backwards either.
User avatar
Botman
Mal Meninga
Posts: 42016
Joined: June 18, 2013, 4:31 pm
Favourite Player: Elliott Whitehead

Re: Coaching issues

Post by Botman »

The Nickman wrote: April 30, 2021, 7:31 pm I’m just not sure whether it’s more a question of bleeding green as it is sticking solid. You need to get the ratio between the two just right IMO.
Yeah, it's a really delicate balancing act.
Get it wrong and you're cooked as a team

I've always felt like you want to stick solid 90% of the time, but when those times occur and you split... that's the time to bleed green
The Nickman
Mal Meninga
Posts: 51016
Joined: June 25, 2012, 9:53 am
Favourite Player: Hodgo
Location: Rockhampton, Central Queensland

Re: Coaching issues

Post by The Nickman »

Botman wrote:
The Nickman wrote: April 30, 2021, 7:31 pm I’m just not sure whether it’s more a question of bleeding green as it is sticking solid. You need to get the ratio between the two just right IMO.
Yeah, it's a really delicate balancing act.
Get it wrong and you're cooked as a team

I've always felt like you want to stick solid 90% of the time, but when those times occur and you split... that's the time to bleed green
I think you’ve nailed it, and I think a big part of the problem right now is the guys are trying to bleed green without sticking solid first.
User avatar
Ultima
Laurie Daley
Posts: 12348
Joined: January 18, 2005, 9:46 pm
Favourite Player: Croker
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Contact:

Re: Coaching issues

Post by Ultima »

Just to show the insanity of our bench use for that game.

We have all forwards on the bench, you would assume this means you want to swap out your forward more to keep them all fresh, why the **** else would you waste every bench spot on a forward?

22:32 - Interchange #1: James off, Horsburgh on.
25:24 - Interchange #2: Guler off, Tapine on.
29:09 - Interchange #3: Sutton off, Havili on.
Half time (10 minutes): Soliola hasn't been on at all.
49:16 - Interchange #4: Tapine off after just 15 on then a break for 10, then 9 minutes on. Sutton back on after only 30 minutes break.
51:01 - Interchange #5: Havili off after only 11 minutes on then a break for 10, then 11 minutes. Guler back on after a 35 minute break.
65:09 - Interchange #6: Horsburgh off after 18 minutes then a break for 10 then 25 minutes, Soliola on.
72:11 - Interchange #7: Sutton off after 23 minutes, Tapine on after a 23 minute break.
74:29 - Interchange #8: Soliola off after just nine minutes, Havili back on after his 23 minute break.

Per player:
James (1) - One run for 23... Never made it back on the field after being taken off in the first half, shortest run in the first half, so I assume he hence is our least fit player based on this utilisation...
Guler (2) - Two runs for 54 minutes, 25 and 29 ended the game on the field.
Sutton (2) - Two runs, two benching for 52 minutes. 29 minutes then 23.
Havili (3) - Three runs for 28 minutes. 11 minutes + break + 11 minutes, 6 minutes ended the game on the field.
Tapine (2) - Two runs for 32 minutes.
Horsburgh (1) - One run including the break at half time for 42 minutes.
Soliola (1) - One nine minute run, costing us two interchanges.

No other team in the comp runs four forwards and only uses one of them for nine minutes... I struggle to find a team which gives ANY player under twenty minutes unless they are injured or a back on the bench for an emergency.
Last edited by Ultima on April 30, 2021, 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
gangrenous
Laurie Daley
Posts: 16592
Joined: May 12, 2007, 10:42 pm

Re: Coaching issues

Post by gangrenous »

Ultima wrote: 49:16 - Interchange #4: Tapine off after just 15 on then a break for 10, then 9 minutes on. Sutton back on after only 20 minutes break.
51:01 - Interchange #5: Havili off after only 11 minutes on then a break for 10, then 11 minutes. Guler back on after a 25 minute break.
Interesting post. Thanks for breaking it down Image

Just a point on the quoted section though. You’re inconsistent in the way you count the half time break to suit your argument.
User avatar
gerg
Laurie Daley
Posts: 12619
Joined: June 24, 2008, 4:22 pm

Re: Coaching issues

Post by gerg »

Seiffert82 wrote:
rayden83 wrote: April 30, 2021, 5:31 pm
Seiffert82 wrote: April 30, 2021, 10:55 am I don't think we go through the middle enough. We do it for the first 15 minutes of the game and then walk away
Are you serious? We spent nearly the whole second half trying to bash Souths through the guts. It didn't work. As soon as we spread the ball to our wide players we looked much better, possibly because our attack and their defenders were so bunched that it left space out wide to exploit.

Going through the middle only works when you have threatening edge forwards and/or outside backs, which forces teams to spread their defensive lines. It worked brilliantly in 2019 when we had attacking threats all over the park which allowed the likes of Papalii , Lui to get a roll on.
Why do you think it worked in the first half after we started the game through the middle?

Oh that's right, because we started the first half going through the middle, compressing their defence.

In the second half we started it poorly. Never got on the front foot.
I think you need a good mix of both. Go through the middle to compress the defence and then go wide once that defence is compressed. Once that compressed defence spreads again it allows the middles to roll through and offloading becomes easier.
Shoving it in your face since 2017
User avatar
Ultima
Laurie Daley
Posts: 12348
Joined: January 18, 2005, 9:46 pm
Favourite Player: Croker
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Contact:

Re: Coaching issues

Post by Ultima »

gangrenous wrote: April 30, 2021, 9:48 pm
Ultima wrote: 49:16 - Interchange #4: Tapine off after just 15 on then a break for 10, then 9 minutes on. Sutton back on after only 20 minutes break.
51:01 - Interchange #5: Havili off after only 11 minutes on then a break for 10, then 11 minutes. Guler back on after a 25 minute break.
Interesting post. Thanks for breaking it down Image

Just a point on the quoted section though. You’re inconsistent in the way you count the half time break to suit your argument.
Na I just **** up the break. They all should be consistent with the 10 minutes for half time. I was more trying to point out here was the last one off the field, first one back on it.
The Nickman
Mal Meninga
Posts: 51016
Joined: June 25, 2012, 9:53 am
Favourite Player: Hodgo
Location: Rockhampton, Central Queensland

Re: Coaching issues

Post by The Nickman »

gergreg wrote:
Seiffert82 wrote:
rayden83 wrote: April 30, 2021, 5:31 pm
Seiffert82 wrote: April 30, 2021, 10:55 am I don't think we go through the middle enough. We do it for the first 15 minutes of the game and then walk away
Are you serious? We spent nearly the whole second half trying to bash Souths through the guts. It didn't work. As soon as we spread the ball to our wide players we looked much better, possibly because our attack and their defenders were so bunched that it left space out wide to exploit.

Going through the middle only works when you have threatening edge forwards and/or outside backs, which forces teams to spread their defensive lines. It worked brilliantly in 2019 when we had attacking threats all over the park which allowed the likes of Papalii , Lui to get a roll on.
Why do you think it worked in the first half after we started the game through the middle?

Oh that's right, because we started the first half going through the middle, compressing their defence.

In the second half we started it poorly. Never got on the front foot.
I think you need a good mix of both. Go through the middle to compress the defence and then go wide once that defence is compressed. Once that compressed defence spreads again it allows the middles to roll through and offloading becomes easier.
And always, always, ALWAYS, Stick Solid!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
User avatar
gerg
Laurie Daley
Posts: 12619
Joined: June 24, 2008, 4:22 pm

Re: Coaching issues

Post by gerg »

The Nickman wrote:
gergreg wrote:
Seiffert82 wrote:
rayden83 wrote: April 30, 2021, 5:31 pm
Seiffert82 wrote: April 30, 2021, 10:55 am I don't think we go through the middle enough. We do it for the first 15 minutes of the game and then walk away
Are you serious? We spent nearly the whole second half trying to bash Souths through the guts. It didn't work. As soon as we spread the ball to our wide players we looked much better, possibly because our attack and their defenders were so bunched that it left space out wide to exploit.

Going through the middle only works when you have threatening edge forwards and/or outside backs, which forces teams to spread their defensive lines. It worked brilliantly in 2019 when we had attacking threats all over the park which allowed the likes of Papalii , Lui to get a roll on.
Why do you think it worked in the first half after we started the game through the middle?

Oh that's right, because we started the first half going through the middle, compressing their defence.

In the second half we started it poorly. Never got on the front foot.
I think you need a good mix of both. Go through the middle to compress the defence and then go wide once that defence is compressed. Once that compressed defence spreads again it allows the middles to roll through and offloading becomes easier.
And always, always, ALWAYS, Stick Solid!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Not sure where this new schtick of yours came from, but I give it a solid 2 out of 17.
Shoving it in your face since 2017
User avatar
gangrenous
Laurie Daley
Posts: 16592
Joined: May 12, 2007, 10:42 pm

Re: Coaching issues

Post by gangrenous »

Schtick solid - 2/17
User avatar
Northern Raider
Mal Meninga
Posts: 32524
Joined: June 19, 2007, 8:17 am
Favourite Player: Dean Lance
Location: Greener pastures

Re: Coaching issues

Post by Northern Raider »

Ultima wrote: April 30, 2021, 9:26 pm Just to show the insanity of our bench use for that game.

We have all forwards on the bench, you would assume this means you want to swap out your forward more to keep them all fresh, why the **** else would you waste every bench spot on a forward?

22:32 - Interchange #1: James off, Horsburgh on.
25:24 - Interchange #2: Guler off, Tapine on.
29:09 - Interchange #3: Sutton off, Havili on.
Half time (10 minutes): Soliola hasn't been on at all.
49:16 - Interchange #4: Tapine off after just 15 on then a break for 10, then 9 minutes on. Sutton back on after only 30 minutes break.
51:01 - Interchange #5: Havili off after only 11 minutes on then a break for 10, then 11 minutes. Guler back on after a 35 minute break.
65:09 - Interchange #6: Horsburgh off after 18 minutes then a break for 10 then 25 minutes, Soliola on.
72:11 - Interchange #7: Sutton off after 23 minutes, Tapine on after a 23 minute break.
74:29 - Interchange #8: Soliola off after just nine minutes, Havili back on after his 23 minute break.

Per player:
James (1) - One run for 23... Never made it back on the field after being taken off in the first half, shortest run in the first half, so I assume he hence is our least fit player based on this utilisation...
Guler (2) - Two runs for 54 minutes, 25 and 29 ended the game on the field.
Sutton (2) - Two runs, two benching for 52 minutes. 29 minutes then 23.
Havili (3) - Three runs for 28 minutes. 11 minutes + break + 11 minutes, 6 minutes ended the game on the field.
Tapine (2) - Two runs for 32 minutes.
Horsburgh (1) - One run including the break at half time for 42 minutes.
Soliola (1) - One nine minute run, costing us two interchanges.

No other team in the comp runs four forwards and only uses one of them for nine minutes... I struggle to find a team which gives ANY player under twenty minutes unless they are injured or a back on the bench for an emergency.
Knights do it. Last week they had 4 bench forwards. One got 15 minutes and another didn't get on the field. A lot of that comes back to their starting middles getting big minutes. Klemmer, Saifiti and Watson regularly play 60 mins each.
* The author assumes no responsibility for the topicality, correctness, completeness or quality of information provided.
User avatar
Seiffert82
Mal Meninga
Posts: 27849
Joined: March 17, 2007, 12:24 pm
Favourite Player: Bay56

Re: Coaching issues

Post by Seiffert82 »

gergreg wrote: April 30, 2021, 10:03 pm
Seiffert82 wrote:
rayden83 wrote: April 30, 2021, 5:31 pm
Seiffert82 wrote: April 30, 2021, 10:55 am I don't think we go through the middle enough. We do it for the first 15 minutes of the game and then walk away
Are you serious? We spent nearly the whole second half trying to bash Souths through the guts. It didn't work. As soon as we spread the ball to our wide players we looked much better, possibly because our attack and their defenders were so bunched that it left space out wide to exploit.

Going through the middle only works when you have threatening edge forwards and/or outside backs, which forces teams to spread their defensive lines. It worked brilliantly in 2019 when we had attacking threats all over the park which allowed the likes of Papalii , Lui to get a roll on.
Why do you think it worked in the first half after we started the game through the middle?

Oh that's right, because we started the first half going through the middle, compressing their defence.

In the second half we started it poorly. Never got on the front foot.
I think you need a good mix of both. Go through the middle to compress the defence and then go wide once that defence is compressed. Once that compressed defence spreads again it allows the middles to roll through and offloading becomes easier.
Yep, totally. You have to do A well before you try B though.
User avatar
Canberra Milk
Laurie Daley
Posts: 15204
Joined: January 6, 2005, 8:44 pm
Favourite Player: Leipana

Re: Coaching issues

Post by Canberra Milk »

I think it's a myth that you have to win the middle first. Ok not a myth, but a general truth that is not so simple in practice. Eg Ikin and Kent disagreed re Raiders as to whether our problem starts in the middle, or whether it's from not using the ball enough. Ikin thought the latter and I agree.

If the opposition notices you're just going straight up the tram lines, and compressing and rushing in response... you have to pull a lever somewhere. You have to respond to the game conditions. You don't just keep plowing ahead because of black and white thinking that "that was the game plan and we have to win the middle".

There's no better way of forcing a one on one legs tackle (and hence a quick play the ball) than spinning the ball wide. Once done, you can plow up the middle next play into a retreating defence with glee, and then probably again for the next tackle too. I'm convinced this is the optimal strategy for football teams. You do need a smart footy brain on field who knows exactly when to do which one, too

In any case, all the good teams at the moment are doing both. Using the ball, and going up the middle. The proof is in the pudding. There is not one top tier team at the moment who is a "grinding" team. Not Storm, not Panthers, not Rabbits, not Roosters
User avatar
Rickmando
John Ferguson
Posts: 2663
Joined: May 22, 2017, 3:41 pm
Favourite Player: Ricky Stuart

Re: Coaching issues

Post by Rickmando »

Canberra Milk wrote: May 1, 2021, 9:33 am I think it's a myth that you have to win the middle first. Ok not a myth, but a general truth that is not so simple in practice. Eg Ikin and Kent disagreed re Raiders as to whether our problem starts in the middle, or whether it's from not using the ball enough. Ikin thought the latter and I agree.

If the opposition notices you're just going straight up the tram lines, and compressing and rushing in response... you have to pull a lever somewhere. You have to respond to the game conditions. You don't just keep plowing ahead because of black and white thinking that "that was the game plan and we have to win the middle".

There's no better way of forcing a one on one legs tackle (and hence a quick play the ball) than spinning the ball wide. Once done, you can plow up the middle next play into a retreating defence with glee, and then probably again for the next tackle too. I'm convinced this is the optimal strategy for football teams. You do need a smart footy brain on field who knows exactly when to do which one, too

In any case, all the good teams at the moment are doing both. Using the ball, and going up the middle. The proof is in the pudding. There is not one top tier team at the moment who is a "grinding" team. Not Storm, not Panthers, not Rabbits, not Roosters
The raiders are far too predictable. Whether they go up the middle or out wide - hardly anyone is moving apart from the ball carrier. No one is looking for/expecting any second phase play. Defenders are never in two minds because our shape and style never asks them to make any decisions.
Post Reply