CHN and Horsburgh

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rayden83
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Re: CHN and Horsburgh

Post by rayden83 »

Botman wrote: April 9, 2021, 7:24 pm
afgtnk wrote: April 9, 2021, 6:52 pm
Raider Azz wrote: April 9, 2021, 6:38 pm
greeneyed wrote:Can we dial down the temperature a bit please? No need for the pile on... or name calling, thanks.
Seriously? The guy is pretty clearly asking for it. He's still going on!

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Giving an opinion on football, no matter how outlandish your pea brain think it may be, doesn't warrant name calling.
at some point a spade has to be called a spade
and anyone actually legitimately trying to argue Papalii and Hors are comparably players at age 23, is in fact an idiot. There is no way around that. It is what it is.
Except it isnt. Achievement isnt the same thing as talent.
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Re: CHN and Horsburgh

Post by Northern Raider »

rayden83 wrote: April 9, 2021, 7:28 pm
Northern Raider wrote: April 9, 2021, 7:25 pm
rayden83 wrote: April 9, 2021, 7:15 pm
Northern Raider wrote: April 9, 2021, 7:06 pm
rayden83 wrote: April 9, 2021, 7:02 pm

I'm disappointed with you NR. At least the others try to offer some analysis. It's clear that your intellect doesn't extend beyond cheap, petty one lines.

Down wif NR
Just following the mob.

Out of interest. How many people agree with you that Papalii didn't hit his trade till 2016?
Probably the same amount of people who thought Sezer was a good player because he had "game management" skills.
How many was that?
Lots and lots
Great to see them all jumping to support your opinion.
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Botman
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Re: CHN and Horsburgh

Post by Botman »

rayden83 wrote: April 9, 2021, 7:31 pm
Botman wrote: April 9, 2021, 7:24 pm
afgtnk wrote: April 9, 2021, 6:52 pm
Raider Azz wrote: April 9, 2021, 6:38 pm
greeneyed wrote:Can we dial down the temperature a bit please? No need for the pile on... or name calling, thanks.
Seriously? The guy is pretty clearly asking for it. He's still going on!

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Giving an opinion on football, no matter how outlandish your pea brain think it may be, doesn't warrant name calling.
at some point a spade has to be called a spade
and anyone actually legitimately trying to argue Papalii and Hors are comparably players at age 23, is in fact an idiot. There is no way around that. It is what it is.
Except it isnt. Achievement isnt the same thing as talent.
His talent isnt comparable.
I dont know what to tell you, my guy.

It's a bad take. Objectively one of the worst seen on this site in years. And you should feel bad. And im here to make you know it.
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CHN and Horsburgh

Post by afgtnk »

Botman wrote: April 9, 2021, 7:24 pm
afgtnk wrote: April 9, 2021, 6:52 pm
Raider Azz wrote: April 9, 2021, 6:38 pm
greeneyed wrote:Can we dial down the temperature a bit please? No need for the pile on... or name calling, thanks.
Seriously? The guy is pretty clearly asking for it. He's still going on!

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Giving an opinion on football, no matter how outlandish your pea brain think it may be, doesn't warrant name calling.
at some point a spade has to be called a spade
and anyone actually legitimately trying to argue Papalii and Hors are comparably players at age 23, is in fact an idiot. There is no way around that. It is what it is.
You're at least giving some detailed thought to go along with it, which is the main thing here - and what the OP seems to have alluded to with NR.

Unfortunately, EDIT Raider Azz solely exist to pile on, without producing a single original, independent thought of their own on the game.

As for the subject matter, I am firmly in the Papa was comfortably better than Horsburgh at the same age camp. It's a **** debate anyway - apples and oranges. Prior to 2019 and putting on extra weight, Papa was an ordinary middle. Game day threads during the times he filled in there should attest to that. Horsburgh is not a edge player like Papa was, and never will be.
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Re: CHN and Horsburgh

Post by rayden83 »

Botty can you at least respond to this link which doesn't consider Papa to be in the top 3-4 second rowers, let alone back rowers? Can you find me an article or some evidence of a qualified person that has him in the top 3-4? (note: your brain farts do not count as qualified opinion)

https://www.nrl.com/news/2016/12/28/top ... n-the-nrl/
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Re: CHN and Horsburgh

Post by Botman »

Yeah they’re totally different sort of players
Papa is way more athletic even as a late career middle. Hors is your classic firebrand
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Re: CHN and Horsburgh

Post by Botman »

rayden83 wrote: April 9, 2021, 7:37 pm Botty can you at least respond to this link which doesn't consider Papa to be in the top 3-4 second rowers, let alone back rowers? Can you find me an article or some evidence of a qualified person that has him in the top 3-4? (note: your brain farts do not count as qualified opinion)

https://www.nrl.com/news/2016/12/28/top ... n-the-nrl/
Of course I will respond
And my response is this

Your link is busted, champ
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Re: CHN and Horsburgh

Post by greeneyed »

Any more name calling, the thread is locked. This isn’t Facebook.


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Botman
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Re: CHN and Horsburgh

Post by Botman »

greeneyed wrote: April 9, 2021, 7:42 pm Any more name calling, the thread is locked. This isn’t Facebook.


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We know it's not facebook ****

:D :D
(You can thank me latter Rayden)
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Re: CHN and Horsburgh

Post by rayden83 »

Botman wrote: April 9, 2021, 7:34 pm
rayden83 wrote: April 9, 2021, 7:31 pm
Botman wrote: April 9, 2021, 7:24 pm
afgtnk wrote: April 9, 2021, 6:52 pm
Raider Azz wrote: April 9, 2021, 6:38 pm Seriously? The guy is pretty clearly asking for it. He's still going on!

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Giving an opinion on football, no matter how outlandish your pea brain think it may be, doesn't warrant name calling.
at some point a spade has to be called a spade
and anyone actually legitimately trying to argue Papalii and Hors are comparably players at age 23, is in fact an idiot. There is no way around that. It is what it is.
Except it isnt. Achievement isnt the same thing as talent.
His talent isnt comparable.
I dont know what to tell you, my guy.

It's a bad take. Objectively one of the worst seen on this site in years. And you should feel bad. And im here to make you know it.
I disagree. My take on 23 yo Hors is that he is possibly comparable to 2013 Papa. I can't rule it out. 23yo Hors has already made Maroons selection and played in a GF. He obviously has prodigious talent to make the Maroons as 22yo, and help his club reach the GF in his first season. He will only get better, providing he gets playing time. Some props don't peak until his mid to late 20s.
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Botman
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Re: CHN and Horsburgh

Post by Botman »

Your take is wrong
If you can’t rule it out, that’s fine. I can’t make you. But they’re on different levels of football at the same age

Hors has the talent to maybe make a less than impressive QLD team
At the same age Papalii had already played his way into the most dominant date state team of all time, which had a LOADED pack of proven, seasoned vets
And went on to play for Australia

I don’t know what more I can say. It’s a bad and incorrect assessment of talent
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Re: CHN and Horsburgh

Post by rayden83 »

Botman wrote: April 9, 2021, 7:56 pm Your take is wrong
If you can’t rule it out, that’s fine. I can’t make you. But they’re on different levels of football at the same age

Hors has the talent to maybe make a less than impressive QLD team
At the same age Papalii had already played his way into the most dominant date state team of all time, which had a LOADED pack of proven, sasoned vets
And went on to play for Australia

I don’t know what more I can say. It’s a bad and incorrect assessment of talent
The only bad and incorrect assessment of talent is the notion that Papalii was widely regarded as amongst the "3-4 best backrowers in the world" prior to 2016. This is demonstrably false, proven by the fact that Papa was a fringe Origin player and didn't make a top 50 NRL players list until 2016. Clearly the only person who thinks this is you, and a few other deluded parochial Raiders fans. Based on this warped ,inflated over assessment of Papalii at this time, it's easy to see how you have such little appreciation for Horsburgh innate talent.
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Re: CHN and Horsburgh

Post by Botman »

Let me know when Hors has an state or international reps to his name
Until then, hit the bricks

Your eye for talent sucks and is clearly broken. Or you just never really saw papalii

Either way, it’s misguided at best and stupid at worst to compare those players at the same age, on talent or achievement
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CHN and Horsburgh

Post by RTW »

Unpopular opinion but I am throwing it out- Horsburgh is massively overrated on this site. He has talent and is willing but he has limited control over his aggression which leads to poor discipline. In his 20 odd appearances he has far to many errors per game and his tackle efficiency would be down compared to most of our middle forwards.

Does this mean we should cut him loose, hell no with development he will become a very good player who should earn rep honours. But he is a long way off being this player and has plenty to work on on his game.


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Re: CHN and Horsburgh

Post by hobbsy »

RTW wrote: April 9, 2021, 10:30 pm Unpopular opinion but I am throwing it out- Horsburgh is massively overrated on this site. He has talent and is willing but he has limited control over his aggression which leads to poor discipline. In his 20 odd appearances he has far to many errors per game and his tackle efficiency would be down compared to most of our middle forwards.

Does this mean we should cut him loose, hell no with development he will become a very good player who should earn rep honours. But he is a long way off being this player and has plenty to work on on his game.


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I'm with you on this
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Re: CHN and Horsburgh

Post by Botman »

RTW wrote: April 9, 2021, 10:30 pm Unpopular opinion but I am throwing it out- Horsburgh is massively overrated on this site. He has talent and is willing but he has limited control over his aggression which leads to poor discipline. In his 20 odd appearances he has far to many errors per game and his tackle efficiency would be down compared to most of our middle forwards.

Does this mean we should cut him loose, hell no with development he will become a very good player who should earn rep honours. But he is a long way off being this player and has plenty to work on on his game.


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he's super talented, and he's got a lot of good footy in him if he channels it correctly but the general theme of this, i agree with
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Re: CHN and Horsburgh

Post by rayden83 »

Botman wrote: April 9, 2021, 10:25 pm Let me know when Hors has an state or international reps to his name
Until then, hit the bricks

Your eye for talent sucks and is clearly broken. Or you just never really saw papalii

Either way, it’s misguided at best and stupid at worst to compare those players at the same age, on talent or achievement
I don't think you saw Papalii because you keep saying he was amongst the "top 3-4 backrowers" pre 2016 when this is clearly not the case. Perhaps you have a bad memory, or a tendency to romanticize the past? As for Hors, he most probably would've had origin caps by now were it not for injury. In any case I'm not comparing them by rep honours, rather club form at the same age. Clearly Papa had the more established career early but he didn't truly hit his stride until 2016. Until then he was a good player with loads of promise on the fringes of rep selection. I see similarities with Hors, a good player with loads of promise on the fringes of rep selection. Unlike you I don't regard things like rep selection or club caps as absolute determiners of talent. Sure they are part of it but sometimes you see a player early on and you know they are destined for great things. The honours and accolades come later.
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Re: CHN and Horsburgh

Post by Botman »

You can keep saying it as much as you like
You’re wrong

There is a gulf of difference in their natural talent and ability. And yes, Papalii was one of the best edge forward in the world before moving to the middles

If you’re incapable of seeing or understanding that, there is nothing more I can do for you. There is a reason literally everyone is cracking jokes about this take of yours. It’s bad and you should feel bad
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Re: CHN and Horsburgh

Post by TongueFTW »

This isn’t even a discussion. Papalii was a weapon from his debut game, he made Josh McCrone look like a good playmaker ****.
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Re: CHN and Horsburgh

Post by BadnMean »

rayden83 wrote: April 9, 2021, 6:47 pm
BadnMean wrote: April 9, 2021, 12:42 pm Papa had played 104 FG games, 4 origins and 4 Tests by the time he was 23...

Hors has played 28 FG games, 0 Origins and 0 Tests at the same age...

I mean that seems clear cut to me, but I do intend to keep subscribing to your newsletter.
Glenn Lazarus at 23
0 Origins 0 test

Paul Gallen at 23
0 Origins 0 tests

Petero Civoniceva at 23
0 Origins 0 tests

Your statistics suck!
Doesn't this just kinda prove my point that Papa was an outstanding talent right from the word go and has achieved more than some absolute giants of the game at a similar point?
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Re: CHN and Horsburgh

Post by -TW- »

TongueFTW wrote:This isn’t even a discussion. Papalii was a weapon from his debut game, he made Josh McCrone look like a good playmaker ****.
Exactly

Papalii earnt Mccrone more tries than he deserved just by existing off his right hip

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Re: CHN and Horsburgh

Post by Northern Raider »

BadnMean wrote: April 10, 2021, 8:46 am
rayden83 wrote: April 9, 2021, 6:47 pm
BadnMean wrote: April 9, 2021, 12:42 pm Papa had played 104 FG games, 4 origins and 4 Tests by the time he was 23...

Hors has played 28 FG games, 0 Origins and 0 Tests at the same age...

I mean that seems clear cut to me, but I do intend to keep subscribing to your newsletter.
Glenn Lazarus at 23
0 Origins 0 test

Paul Gallen at 23
0 Origins 0 tests

Petero Civoniceva at 23
0 Origins 0 tests

Your statistics suck!
Doesn't this just kinda prove my point that Papa was an outstanding talent right from the word go and has achieved more than some absolute giants of the game at a similar point?
Unfortunately rayden has become so obsessed with a deeply flawed opinion that he cannot recognise a massive own goal like this.
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Re: CHN and Horsburgh

Post by -TW- »

Rayden has potted a few own goals in this thread

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Re: CHN and Horsburgh

Post by rayden83 »

Botman wrote: April 10, 2021, 6:50 am You can keep saying it as much as you like
You’re wrong

There is a gulf of difference in their natural talent and ability. And yes, Papalii was one of the best edge forward in the world before moving to the middles

If you’re incapable of seeing or understanding that, there is nothing more I can do for you. There is a reason literally everyone is cracking jokes about this take of yours. It’s bad and you should feel bad
You can keeping talking up pre 2016 Papalii all you want, the reality is he wasn’t widely and unanimously recognised as amongst the “3-4 best players backrowers in the world”. This is demonstrably false and Ive cited numerous sources and evidence proving this. He wasn’t even recognised by Raiders fans as among the 3-4 best players in the team, one that often struggled to make the finals.

Your exalted opinion of pre 2016 Papalii is built on a lie, therefore you simply have zero credibility when it comes to comparing the two players. You can keep saying “you’re wrong you’re wrong” but you keep pushing this lie that puts Papalii on a pedestal he doesn’t deserve to be on. If you want to convince me that I’m wrong then I suggest you use facts and evidence to back up your viewpoint rather than pushing lies and petty insults. Maybe you keep pushing the same lie over and over because your entire argument would collapse without it.

If you keep pushing lies then I kindly request that you refrain from offering your “help” in the future. We’ve already seen you do a major backflip in respect to Croker so it’s entirely conceivable that you’ll be eating your words in regards to Hors if and when he fulfills his potential.
Last edited by rayden83 on April 10, 2021, 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CHN and Horsburgh

Post by rayden83 »

BadnMean wrote: April 10, 2021, 8:46 am
rayden83 wrote: April 9, 2021, 6:47 pm
BadnMean wrote: April 9, 2021, 12:42 pm Papa had played 104 FG games, 4 origins and 4 Tests by the time he was 23...

Hors has played 28 FG games, 0 Origins and 0 Tests at the same age...

I mean that seems clear cut to me, but I do intend to keep subscribing to your newsletter.
Glenn Lazarus at 23
0 Origins 0 test

Paul Gallen at 23
0 Origins 0 tests

Petero Civoniceva at 23
0 Origins 0 tests

Your statistics suck!
Doesn't this just kinda prove my point that Papa was an outstanding talent right from the word go and has achieved more than some absolute giants of the game at a similar point?
Ben Creagh and Aaron Woods had more state and national honours than those above at the same age, so no, it does not prove your point.
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Re: CHN and Horsburgh

Post by Botman »

rayden83 wrote: April 10, 2021, 12:03 pm
Botman wrote: April 10, 2021, 6:50 am You can keep saying it as much as you like
You’re wrong

There is a gulf of difference in their natural talent and ability. And yes, Papalii was one of the best edge forward in the world before moving to the middles

If you’re incapable of seeing or understanding that, there is nothing more I can do for you. There is a reason literally everyone is cracking jokes about this take of yours. It’s bad and you should feel bad
You can keeping talking up pre 2016 Papalii all you want, the reality is he wasn’t widely and unanimously recognised as amongst the “3-4 best players backrowers in the world”. This is demonstrably false and Ive cited numerous sources and evidence proving this. He wasn’t even recognised by Raiders fans as among the 3-4 best players in the team, one that often struggled to make the finals.

Your exalted opinion of pre 2016 Papalii is built on a lie, therefore you simply have zero credibility when it comes to comparing the two players. You can keep saying “your wrong your wrong” but you keep pushing this lie that puts Papalii on a pedestal he doesn’t deserve to be on. If you want to convince me that I’m wrong then I suggest you use facts and evidence to back up your viewpoint rather than pushing lies and petty insults. Maybe you keep pushing the same lie over and over because your entire argument would collapse without it.

If you keep pushing lies then I kindly request that you refrain from offering your “help” in the future. We’ve already seen you do a major backflip in respect to Croker so it’s entirely conceivable that you’ll be eating your words in regards to Hors if and when he fulfills his potential.
My guy
You’re taking one of the worst beat downs this site has ever seen

Just stop. Literally not a single person has come into this thread and even remotely agreed with you
I’ve never seen anything like it
There isn’t a topic on this site that has ever gotten universal consensus like this
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Re: CHN and Horsburgh

Post by rayden83 »

Botman wrote: April 10, 2021, 12:19 pm
rayden83 wrote: April 10, 2021, 12:03 pm
Botman wrote: April 10, 2021, 6:50 am You can keep saying it as much as you like
You’re wrong

There is a gulf of difference in their natural talent and ability. And yes, Papalii was one of the best edge forward in the world before moving to the middles

If you’re incapable of seeing or understanding that, there is nothing more I can do for you. There is a reason literally everyone is cracking jokes about this take of yours. It’s bad and you should feel bad
You can keeping talking up pre 2016 Papalii all you want, the reality is he wasn’t widely and unanimously recognised as amongst the “3-4 best players backrowers in the world”. This is demonstrably false and Ive cited numerous sources and evidence proving this. He wasn’t even recognised by Raiders fans as among the 3-4 best players in the team, one that often struggled to make the finals.

Your exalted opinion of pre 2016 Papalii is built on a lie, therefore you simply have zero credibility when it comes to comparing the two players. You can keep saying “your wrong your wrong” but you keep pushing this lie that puts Papalii on a pedestal he doesn’t deserve to be on. If you want to convince me that I’m wrong then I suggest you use facts and evidence to back up your viewpoint rather than pushing lies and petty insults. Maybe you keep pushing the same lie over and over because your entire argument would collapse without it.

If you keep pushing lies then I kindly request that you refrain from offering your “help” in the future. We’ve already seen you do a major backflip in respect to Croker so it’s entirely conceivable that you’ll be eating your words in regards to Hors if and when he fulfills his potential.
My guy
You’re taking one of the worst beat downs this site has ever seen

Just stop. Literally not a single person has come into this thread and even remotely agreed with you
I’ve never seen anything like it
There isn’t a topic on this site that has ever gotten universal consensus like this
Im not fussed what “the mob” thinks. I took similar beat downs when I suggested Sezer was crap. Look at the mob now turn on Croker. Raiders fans, at least the good folks on here, are incredible fickle. When we’re winning , everything is sunshine and roses, but when we’re losing, its grey skies and the knives come out. God forbid we lose next week, someone will start a post demanding we sack Stuart. Wouldn’t be the first time.

As a point of clarification I will say this. I never said that Horsburgh was better, or equivalent to Papalii. What I said was that I cannot rule out that “Papalii was definitely better than him at 23”. I made the point because people were blase about losing him to another club while spruiking a 30+ old guy like Ryan James. My point was, based on the fact that he was injured last year, that there was significant unknown about how good he could potentially be, and that it would be a massive mistake to let go of someone who could potentially go on to have a long representative career. If that happens, then I will be entirely vindicated in my assessment that maybe , at 23, Papalii wasn’t definitely better than him, and it was injuries and opportunities that precluded him from reaching his potential and rep honours at an earlier age. If on the other hand to turns out a big red flop, then that will similarly end the argument . I wasn’t making a definitive statement either way, just leaving open the possibility that he could potentially be comparable to Papa at the same age, especially as at the same age Papa was still evolving as a player with massive upside. The points I made were entirely fair and reasonable, it’s a shame that people can only see things in binary (papa good, hors bad) rather than understanding the nuances of an argument.
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Re: CHN and Horsburgh

Post by Botman »

The Nickman
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Re: CHN and Horsburgh

Post by The Nickman »

rayden83 wrote:
Raider Azz wrote: April 9, 2021, 6:38 pm
greeneyed wrote:Can we dial down the temperature a bit please? No need for the pile on... or name calling, thanks.
Seriously? The guy is pretty clearly asking for it. He's still going on!

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I don't care. I've learned the GH mob are more frequently wrong than right. These are the same people who thought Sezer was a great player because of his "game management" skills, and that Croker should play origin. I'm pretty sure some of them thought that Reece Robinson was better than Dugan too. Not an IQ point between them.
Interesting take. You weren’t around on the forum back in those days... or were you?

EDIT
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Re: CHN and Horsburgh

Post by kiwi raider »

-TW- wrote: April 10, 2021, 11:39 am Rayden has potted a few own goals in this thread

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with all the own goals in his net right now, he could possibly be choking on his own balls
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Re: CHN and Horsburgh

Post by rayden83 »

Josh Papalii season in review thegh.com.au

2012 - 7.5/10
2013 - 6.5/10

“Probably 5.5 or 6/10 is a fair rating. Had some really great games like the Cowboys at home but was pretty quiet for most of the year compared to last year.”

2014 - 4.5/10

“Reasonable end to the year, but for a guy who could be pushing an 8/10 he was disappointing at around 4/10 across the entire year. I don't buy the "blame the halves" theory either. What he did with the ball was mostly pedestrian and his work off the ball was sorely lacking for much of the year.”

2015 - 6/10

“A few less buffets and some more time with Sia and papa might just reach his potential”

“6/10 because I expect more from him.”

...

2016 - 8.5/10

“His best ever season at the club and our best player this year alongside Hodgo and BJ.”

“He went gangbusters in 16.”

2017 - 7/10
2018 - 8/10
2019 - 9/10
2020 - 8.5/10

Pre 2016 Top 3-4 backrowers in the game my a** botty. You damn liar!

Clearly, obviously, ambiguously, without a shred of doubt Papa hit his stride in 2016. Anyone who disagrees with me has amnesia or one too many head knocks from park footy.
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gerg
Laurie Daley
Posts: 12617
Joined: June 24, 2008, 4:22 pm

Re: CHN and Horsburgh

Post by gerg »

If you're going to this level of effort than post up the 'season review' data for Corey as a comparison. You know... to back up your original claim.

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Shoving it in your face since 2017
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Northern Raider
Mal Meninga
Posts: 32524
Joined: June 19, 2007, 8:17 am
Favourite Player: Dean Lance
Location: Greener pastures

Re: CHN and Horsburgh

Post by Northern Raider »

So a 7.5/10 in 2012 when he hadn't hit his stride yet. 7/10 in 2017 when he finally did hit his stride.
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rayden83
Alan Tongue
Posts: 673
Joined: March 18, 2018, 7:33 pm
Favourite Player: Rapana

Re: CHN and Horsburgh

Post by rayden83 »

Northern Raider wrote: April 10, 2021, 9:52 pm So a 7.5/10 in 2012 when he hadn't hit his stride yet. 7/10 in 2017 when he finally did hit his stride.
With comments like that I really feel like I’m starting to win this battle.
The Nickman
Mal Meninga
Posts: 51016
Joined: June 25, 2012, 9:53 am
Favourite Player: Hodgo
Location: Rockhampton, Central Queensland

Re: CHN and Horsburgh

Post by The Nickman »

Narrator: he was not winning the battle.
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